Summer Solstice 2010 @ Duntryleague Passage tomb

bogman

Arriving at the site












Inside the chamber










After sunset






Later on


An amazing night with the setting sun shining through the chamber illuminating part of the back wall

Wibbs

Brilliant as ever from Bogman. Always a pleasure to read and view your bike powered neolithic travels.

Silly question maybe but does that site have a recognised solar alignment? The pics and your description looks like it.

bogman

Thank you kind sir, its my pleasure to post pictures showing what I get up to on my travels, in relation to your question I have no idea if there is a recognised alignment at Duntryleague, no doubt some of the people on the forum could help you out Wibbs, the Sun illuminated part of the back of the chamber but not all of it, perhaps thousands of years ago it may have been slightly different
Last night's trip was more than worth the effort

Riamfada

Fantastic. What camera are you using? I keep meaning to get out with the camera myself.

bogman

Nikon D90 last night, I often use a small compact Canon IXUS 100 IS, handy to carry in ur top pocket

bawn79

From what I know it doesnt, the passage of the tomb points north. Its likely that the tomb would have had a mound over it so the view to the west would have been obscured.
Of course there are some that argue that these tombs may not have had as extensive mounds as is normally imagined.

Wibbs

bawn79 wrote: »

Of course there are some that argue that these tombs may not have had as extensive mounds as is normally imagined.

Really? I had always assumed that they were mounded up. Of course assumption is often a bad thing . Are there any contemporaneous examples of say dolmens with their mounds intact or largely present? Would they have used smaller stones or sods of earth? The former I can imagine being quarried over the centuries for dry wall field boundaries and the like, leaving the huge stones too big to move naked in the landscape.

The astronomical alignment aspect is an interesting one. After Newgrange and the other big fellas were discovered to have them I suppose it's natural and exciting to think they all or most had them. Maybe not? Maybe there was a vague notion of alignment that sprung up at first. Some alignments were to local features in the landscape or other tombs. Then a lightbulb moment of advancement happened where they aligned to the sky. Is this the general idea?

Has anyone outside newager "Im looking for leylines" types done a comprehensive study countrywide on the alignments of these structures based on their relative ages? If not lets all put a few quid in a hat for the gear required, call it the Bogman research fund and let the chap get on with it. May need a trailer for the mo bike though

guinnessdrinker

Cairn G at Carrowkeel is aligned to allow light from the Summer solstice illuminate it's chamber through the cairn's roofbox. It's also thought that this roofbox allows light from the full moon either side of the Winter solstice to illuminate the chamber, interesting!

Cairn G

Short BBC article about Carin G and it's alignment to capture Moonlight.

bawn79

Wibbs wrote: »

Really? I had always assumed that they were mounded up. Of course assumption is often a bad thing . Are there any contemporaneous examples of say dolmens with their mounds intact or largely present? Would they have used smaller stones or sods of earth? The former I can imagine being quarried over the centuries for dry wall field boundaries and the like, leaving the huge stones too big to move naked in the landscape.

The astronomical alignment aspect is an interesting one. After Newgrange and the other big fellas were discovered to have them I suppose it's natural and exciting to think they all or most had them. Maybe not? Maybe there was a vague notion of alignment that sprung up at first. Some alignments were to local features in the landscape or other tombs. Then a lightbulb moment of advancement happened where they aligned to the sky. Is this the general idea?

Has anyone outside newager "Im looking for leylines" types done a comprehensive study countrywide on the alignments of these structures based on their relative ages? If not lets all put a few quid in a hat for the gear required, call it the Bogman research fund and let the chap get on with it. May need a trailer for the mo bike though

Im not totally sure where I read the reference about not all tombs having mounds, Im sure it was put forward especially regarding Portal Tombs which seem to be put in prominent positions and as a kind of statement of intent. I could totally be wrong but i think the idea was why build something so impressive and hide it under dirt completely.

This is a good book from a guy in the 70s who did a lot of research into some the alignments of the main passage tombs in Ireland.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892815094/newgranmegalitpa

Id love some of the fund also here are a few pics from summer solstice sunrise at lough gur


http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87049/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87050/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87051/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87052/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87053/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87054/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html


Ive put forward the idea of an alignment database where all the suspected alignments could be inputed and then photos of the confirmations could be posted also. However Im not sure how to get it going though technically. It needs to be user friendly and attractive enough that the "floater" megalithic lover finds it interesting.

Wibbs

bawn79 wrote: »

Im not totally sure where I read the reference about not all tombs having mounds, Im sure it was put forward especially regarding Portal Tombs which seem to be put in prominent positions and as a kind of statement of intent. I could totally be wrong but i think the idea was why build something so impressive and hide it under dirt completely.

True enough, but that said at different times they definitely covered up impressive stoneworks with a covering. Newgrange and the like. Plus when we look at a relatively complete structure today, we're probably not getting the full picture of how it might have looked in the landscape originally. They could have been covered with an overmantle of contrasting coloured stone. Or small pebbles. Or manicured grass(which in a "wild" environment would stand out) Or even wood, which has disappeared over the centuries. Or they may have covered them up completely to look like a natural extension to the earth they were buried in. An artificial cave. They may not have wanted them to stand out at all. We as a culture would probably want such an effort to be seen for miles. At various times they may not have had such concerns. These structures were built over 1000's of years with one presumes variable trends and fashions, by people with different cultural/religious drives so who knows? It can be too easy to apply our notions to others, or equally dismiss the obvious because we perceive them as so different. It's a hard one.

As a wacky aside, before I'd read more on them, dolmens always reminded me of those native american platforms where the dead were left to scavengers and the elements to deflesh the bones. Then maybe the defleshed bones could have been placed underneath? Blame watching the movie "a man called horse" in a B&B in the burren when I was a kid for that one. I was a weird kid.

This is a good book from a guy in the 70s who did a lot of research into some the alignments of the main passage tombs in Ireland.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892815094/newgranmegalitpa

Have recently just ordered that very book

Id love some of the fund also here are a few pics from summer solstice sunrise at lough gur


http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87049/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87050/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87051/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87052/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87053/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/87054/images/grange_lios_lough_gur.html

Cool shots.

Ive put forward the idea of an alignment database where all the suspected alignments could be inputed and then photos of the confirmations could be posted also. However Im not sure how to get it going though technically. It needs to be user friendly and attractive enough that the "floater" megalithic lover finds it interesting.

I was thinking more on this. Maybe if someone built an iPhone app for just such a purpose? The device has a camera, it also has built in gps and a passable screen to review the shots. I'm sure someone could make a handy general app for archaeologists(+geologists/paleontologists), both pro and amateur. An app that would log the GPS data to the photos with starmap directions. Find the site, aim at a consistent set point, say north, click on a few stones within the frame and log them in relation to the set point. Then no matter what time of the year you visited, a program could work out possible alignments?* I'm shíte at maths and such so I'm sure there would be easier ways. I've also seen other apps where you can measure an object in a photo taken by the phone with a credit card for reference, which could be handy too. It could also log any potential finds, size, position in the strata, GPS. It's just that so many people have these smartphones they might be useful?



*include the moon as a priority. It's only my personal feeling of course but I reckon the moon was a biggy to these guys. It's pretty huge as a cultural icon worldwide. Linked with the place of the dead and fertility. The sun streaming in or lining up is spectacular, but maybe we're missing the moon connection? Like in guinnessdrinker's link above. There's also an 18 year lunar cycle as well as a yearly solar cycle in newgrange. Every 18 years the full moon will shine into the chamber before the sun rises to over power it.

bawn79

I like you app idea, I think the maths would be difficult but not impossible. Do you mind if I post your idea on other forums, see if anyone can run with it?

This was the kind of idea I had

http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

Getting it from the idea stage into a website would be the next step but I dont have the expertise myself.

Wibbs

Oh yea fire ahead. Maths wise it would be longwinded if you're looking to map the whole night sky. I'd say reduce it to sun, moon and maybe a couple of obvious constellations. Even so that would be at the back end. Gathering the raw data and how you do that would be the start point IMHO.

To do it properly would require all sorts of survey gear, but to get enough accuracy to flag a site for more careful study should be straightforward enough. EG the iphone 3gs has a compass and a gps. Both not exactly nasa level but enough I reckon for the purpose.

So with a passage grave structure, standing in the main chamber looking out to the entrance will give you the direction. If you can align the phone to map the entrance on the right and left points you'll get the spread of same. The compass in software can give you the numerical values of this and the compass direction. Maybe have a feature in the app to note the date and time for those hardy folks who will get up early enough to maybe capture any alignment.

*EDIT* you could also add in alignments to other neolithic sites in the area.

Like I say I run out of maths ability when I run outa fingers, but I reckon better brains than mine could work this out. Then upload it to a cloud/social type website, where the raw data could be sifted and analysed for such things like procession etc. This wouldnt just be useful here. it would work all over the world where alignments may be found or suspected.

bawn79

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh yea fire ahead. Maths wise it would be longwinded if you're looking to map the whole night sky. I'd say reduce it to sun, moon and maybe a couple of obvious constellations. Even so that would be at the back end. Gathering the raw data and how you do that would be the start point IMHO.

To do it properly would require all sorts of survey gear, but to get enough accuracy to flag a site for more careful study should be straightforward enough. EG the iphone 3gs has a compass and a gps. Both not exactly nasa level but enough I reckon for the purpose.

So with a passage grave structure, standing in the main chamber looking out to the entrance will give you the direction. If you can align the phone to map the entrance on the right and left points you'll get the spread of same. The compass in software can give you the numerical values of this and the compass direction. Maybe have a feature in the app to note the date and time for those hardy folks who will get up early enough to maybe capture any alignment.

*EDIT* you could also add in alignments to other neolithic sites in the area.

Like I say I run out of maths ability when I run outa fingers, but I reckon better brains than mine could work this out. Then upload it to a cloud/social type website, where the raw data could be sifted and analysed for such things like procession etc. This wouldnt just be useful here. it would work all over the world where alignments may be found or suspected.

No fair play its a very good idea and I dont think its beyond the realms of possibility.

There are some very interesting monuments aligned to the moon. I visited Callinish in 2006 to see the lunar standstill, amazing experience.

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/47201/callanish.html

Some much better pictures than mine on this http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/198/callanish.html

Wibbs

Niiice. Impressive site that one.