Punishment

elius

Whilst out with the dog today she decided to take after another Hare:( Im actually beginning to think she's a Grey Hound by god is she fast. Anyway whistled her called her name and not for love or money would she stop eventually 2-3 mins she came back in view and back to me i stuck her on the lead and i would be lying if i said i didnt give her a smack or two. I dont really like punishing dog buy hitting them so just wondering is there any other methods out there that you lads use..
Thanks
E

Dusty87

I had the same problem with one of my lads elius.
A lad told me that by punishing the dog, he thinks hes bein punished for coming back. I cant give advice really, as my lad is still only 90 percent on it

deeksofdoom

My springer disappeared from the garden last night while I was getting their food for a whole 15minutes and when she came back she knew she was in trouble. The GWP ate half her grub and she went to bed hungry with a sore hole. MY GWP on the other hand never leaves my side and always returns to the whistle.

LetFly

By continually calling the dog when it chases the hare you are giving it the opportunity to ignore you and get away with it. Once the dog is off and after the hare it is NOT going to stop so there is no point in calling it and giving it the opportunity to ignore you. Take the whistle out of your mouth...count to 10 and wait. When the dog gets back there is no point also in punishing it. It will only associate the punishment with coming back thus reinforcing the problem. I would say nothing at all to the dog in this instance....just put the lead on and take it home...neither praising or punishing.
I would then go back to working on getting the dog steady to flush. This can be done by walking it on the lead and then throwing a dummy/ball etc across its path and giving the drop command. Progress on in small stages so that you can do this when the dog is running past you (in a controlled area where you can grab the dog and reinforce if he doesn't drop).
Dont give him the opportunity to chase again until you have him steady. I'm afraid there is no quick solution this. You will have to work hard with the dog to get this instilled.

DavyDee

Electronic training collar the only job for that, my youngest gsp was a fecker for givin me the deaf ear when i started training her and i borrowed the training collar off a buddy, within afew days with her the problem was soon rectified. I know of boys who shoot the hare or rabbit and beat the daylights out of the dog with it and swear it works, couldnt say i would try it or agree with that method!

elius

She was always 100% on the call back. But even now she gets the into what she's doing hunting i tend to think she dosen't actually realise she's being called back. She's turned from a dog that would always walked behind me and refused to hunt to and when she did push on as soon as you called her to a dog who dose nothing but hunt when she's out on the field songbirds to phesants there all the same to her. She incredably head strong at time's its hard to get one's point across. I think i'm going to have to work hard on the recall as this is what is starting to let me/her down.

I really don't like hitting a dog, My Grandad always nipped then on the ear as he felt it was a better way of getting a point accross my own father use's the method and it worked well on his dog.
The fact that when i got her she didnt hunt i dont want her to go back to this frame of mind thus why im being very carefull how i approach the situation.
Thanks for the help lads.

jap gt

an e collar is the only job, you should never hit a dog that comes back to you, it must learn that when its beside you its safe, if you hit her your undoing your work

DavyDee

elius wrote: »

She was always 100% on the call back. But even now she gets the into what she's doing hunting i tend to think she dosen't actually realise she's being called back. She's turned from a dog that would always walked behind me and refused to hunt to and when she did push on as soon as you called her to a dog who dose nothing but hunt when she's out on the field songbirds to phesants there all the same to her. She incredably head strong at time's its hard to get one's point across. I think i'm going to have to work hard on the recall as this is what is starting to let me/her down.

I really don't like hitting a dog, My Grandad always nipped then on the ear as he felt it was a better way of getting a point accross my own father use's the method and it worked well on his dog.
The fact that when i got her she didnt hunt i dont want her to go back to this frame of mind thus why im being very carefull how i approach the situation.
Thanks for the help lads.

Are you sure she's not in heat? Even the most obedient of bitches in heat can become very heedless I know this first hand and a shooting buddy of mine has a cracking springer who goes the exact same way when shes in heat. I was shooting pheasant, grouse and woodcock over my older GSP bitch from the age of 5 months she just came on really quick, I didnt rush her but it was in her from a very young age, however she went through a phase like this between the age of about 16 months for whatever reason i dont know but came out of it again within a month or 2! What breed of dog is it?

elius

A never thought of that she's only stopped bleeding 3 days or so never even thought of it. She's 3 and half year old GSP.

As mention when i got her she was no good at all she would just walk buy your side had no interest in hunting at all. Got her in November last and buy december/january she was flying happy to hunt. She has never had any real training just call back and retrieve to hand. So thats what i'm working on at the moment..

Hezz700

I don't know a lot about how to train dogs, but i've had a few over the years and learnt how to deal with them in my own way.

If any dog runs off for awhile they spend the rest of the outing on the lead. if they're behaving well they get praise and a bicky.
If they don't respond to the whistle i will actually bark or growl at them.
You should never need to strike them.

These are very simple things but you must stick to the program ridgidly and slowly slowly they will learn that you are the alpha dog and must be obeyed.

Dogs require routine and order and respond well to such. you must be consistent in how you react to each action they make otherwise they will be confused.

DavyDee

elius wrote: »

A never thought of that she's only stopped bleeding 3 days or so never even thought of it. She's 3 and half year old GSP.

As mention when i got her she was no good at all she would just walk buy your side had no interest in hunting at all. Got her in November last and buy december/january she was flying happy to hunt. She has never had any real training just call back and retrieve to hand. So thats what i'm working on at the moment..

I bet the heat cycle was the main reason behind this, if it pursues id give the electronic training collar a go!I find my 2 bitches very very heedless when their in heat though! As you already know GSP's are about as headstrong as your average 2 year old child but this can be a good thing the first time they prove you wrong. I seen a dog pointing down a burrow after a pheasant had been shot, his master went mad dragged him over to where the bird had fell, he got afew clips and went straight back over to the burrow. He was raging with the dog when he couldnt find the bird went over to the dog took a look down the burrow and low an behold the cute old rooster had ran down the burrow! Never seen a man more red faced!

EPointer=Birdss

E-Collar only job.
100 times quicker & more effective than steading to tennis balls etc.
Once they get whiff of a hare & it runs across there nose the hound in them come out & everything else goes dark.:mad:

Get a loan of one & the next time your out whistle as loud as you can so she def hears it & if she doesn't turn drop her with the collar.

Alternatively don't call her & just drop her with the collar - she'll be back to you in a flash, Plus the added bonus of thinking hares are a bad thing.

2-3 days max with a collar & that issue will be cured & it will not curb her enthusiasm for hunting.

I always compare a collar to an extension of your hand or a long lead that doesn't get caught in trees!
By letting her ignore you (not that you can help it at 100yrds plus) she'll keep at it & I bet she came back with her head hanging & submissive body language - knowing all too well too well she did wrong & waiting for a clip! She won't associate coming back with a clip & that the cause of getting one if she shows that guilt & fearful body language on her return. What hitting her in this scenario will do but is make her hestitant to come close enough to you going forward & she'll know that she can get away with the mis-deameners...

E collar all the way my friend...

elius

I think ill have to invest in one.
E-pointer your spot on she came back knowing to well she had done wrong. And i even had to get down on one knee to tempt her to come close enough to put her on the lead. I dont no what kind of past punishment she had but i get the impression she got a few clatters and thats why she's can be reluctant to come near me when she's been bold.

Ive already read one book in training pointers can anyone reccomend a good dvd. And what price would one be expected to pay for an E-Collar.

irish setter

your mistake was you didn't install the drop properly as a pup. now you may have to resort to the e-collar as the lads said. i still think it is a horrible device tho

irish setter

elius wrote: »

I think ill have to invest in one.
E-pointer your spot on she came back knowing to well she had done wrong. And i even had to get down on one knee to tempt her to come close enough to put her on the lead. I dont no what kind of past punishment she had but i get the impression she got a few clatters and thats why she's can be reluctant to come near me when she's been bold.

Ive already read one book in training pointers can anyone reccomend a good dvd. And what price would one be expected to pay for an E-Collar.

she didn't know she had done something wrong she can't reason like that. she came back knowing you were not happy

elius

irish setter wrote: »

your mistake was you didn't install the drop properly as a pup. now you may have to resort to the e-collar as the lads said. i still think it is a horrible device tho

I didnt have her as a pup lad. When i got her in November 09 she had just turned 3 and wasn't hunting thats why the previous owner got rid of her. She's hunting well now im just trying to curb her desire for hare's and alike.

It would be foolish of me behalf to expect to much from her but if i can get the basic's right and she shows a good desire to work ill be happy..

EPointer=Birdss

irish setter wrote: »

she didn't know she had done something wrong she can't reason like that. she came back knowing you were not happy

Ah I dunno - the inner workings of a dogs mind are more complex than you might think! They are not going to solve equations & what not but they never cease to amaze me with what the learn & figure out.

A dominant dog will test his boundries constantly. Obviously she knew he wasn't happy when he was roaring & lepping around the field (as we have all done)
She also made a conscious decision to ignore the recall. There was a better option on offer. I bet she heard it, have hestitated when called & took off knowning all too well that she was dis obeying a command.
On the return when the hare was gone she knew all too well she'd done wrong & when she saw her owner's mood it re-inforced it.

Dog understand tough love- fact.
I am tougher on my dogs than anyone in the family as the alpha male as I see it. They will ignore all the others that feed, play & rub them when I am around & follow me like my shadow.
The E-Collars are a great invention if not abused. You can set it to all levels. It's not an electric chair, it's a beep & a stimulation.
A crack of electic wire is way worse.

irish setter

elius wrote: »

I didnt have her as a pup lad. When i got her in November 09 she had just turned 3 and wasn't hunting thats why the previous owner got rid of her. She's hunting well now im just trying to curb her desire for hare's and alike.

It would be foolish of me behalf to expect to much from her but if i can get the basic's right and she shows a good desire to work ill be happy..

just be careful so you don't make her loose interest again by overuse/abuse of the e-collar. sometimes in the pursuit of perfection we can go that one step too far. with an older dog any damage done can be harder undo.

yog1

what type (brand) of e-coller do you guys thinks is best, i see there is lots of different makes on the market and wondered what experance you all had with them

cavan shooter

for what its worth, I have a few hares around me and last year in particular my dog (a springer) would pick up its scent and off like a rocked. (BTW hare sent is very strong) at this stage he was around (8 months old).

I stopped him from doing it by the following method:

First couple of times out he would hunt the hare, when he would come back I would slip the lead on and bring him home straight away.

after a while and this takes some watching, when he picks up the scent whistle him back , Hup him and put him in the ditch ("go ditch")

Keep doing this

I can spot a hare sent pretty good now and I find that if you get his mind off it he will get used to it and ignore or at least cop to the fact he isnt going to go "hareing".

Patience is a virtue

fodda

Electrocution collars on cats on dogs is seen as no sustitute for proper training...... infact they are starting to be banned in countries with severe fines for those who use them of £20,000 or 6 months in jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8584028.stm

EPointer=Birdss

fodda wrote: »

Electrocution collars on cats on dogs is seen as no sustitute for proper training...... infact they are starting to be banned in countries with severe fines for those who use them of £20,000 or 6 months in jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8584028.stm

Have you ever used or been in the company of one being used?

jap gt

fodda wrote: »

Electrocution collars on cats on dogs is seen as no sustitute for proper training...... infact they are starting to be banned in countries with severe fines for those who use them of £20,000 or 6 months in jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8584028.stm

we use the radio fence collars on our two house dogs, since they have been on they have recieved id say 3 or 4 shocks, thats over nearly 3 years, they learn very quick, we can leave gates open and not worry about them wandering, the collar gives a loud beep 6 feet from the line then gets louder the closer the dog gets and only shocks a foot from the wire and on for 5 seconds, a great job would recommend to anyone, i havent used a e collar, but i assume its much the same shock, if so i would consider using it on my own dog

Sarah13

You don't slap a dog nor any animal. what are they learning from it? you must train the animal,but you must of missed out when she was a pup ans now the dog doesn't understand. Hitting any animal is a crime and is cruel!

EPointer=Birdss

jap gt wrote: »

we use the radio fence collars on our two house dogs, since they have been on they have recieved id say 3 or 4 shocks, thats over nearly 3 years, they learn very quick, we can leave gates open and not worry about them wandering, the collar gives a loud beep 6 feet from the line then gets louder the closer the dog gets and only shocks a foot from the wire and on for 5 seconds, a great job would recommend to anyone, i havent used a e collar, but i assume its much the same shock, if so i would consider using it on my own dog

Exact same principle!
My pointer had a unhealthy interest in sheep. I let him follow some one time (the farmer is a close friend & was outside lambing season) when he got within about 2 feet he got the collar on full. Turned him upside down. Back beside me in 2 secs!! Low & behold sheep are now somethin to be avoided! Will not go next or near them since for the same "Pain" as running into electric wire!

It's amazing how a negative experience lasts 100 times longer than a positive!
Give a kid a sweet every time you ask them not to press the big red button & they may not for a while. When you walk out of the room - you bet your a*s they will.
Now say nothing & let them press the button if they want but tell them it might not be a good thing son. Upon pressing the button they get a shock in the finger - low & behold the big red button will not be pressed again!

Learning by association! Dominant negative as opposed to positive reinforcement! Scenario sensitive obviously but can be used to a dog handlers advantage to nip such dirty habits in the bud...

EPointer=Birdss

yog1 wrote: »

what type (brand) of e-coller do you guys thinks is best, i see there is lots of different makes on the market and wondered what experance you all had with them

http://www.paccollars.co.uk/pac-ndxt-1-dog-remote-dog-trainer.html

This is one I use. Can't fault it. Battery came lose in collar & they changed it in no time under warranty.
Good range, water proof etc

elius

Sarah13 wrote: »

You don't slap a dog nor any animal. what are they learning from it? you must train the animal,but you must of missed out when she was a pup ans now the dog doesn't understand. Hitting any animal is a crime and is cruel!

The dog does understand though, Thats why there up there with the most intelligent dogs in the world i think the GSP is 17th. It returned back to me with its head down knowing to well it had done wrong. There's a big difference giving a dog a gental tap on the nose compared with beating it stupid. I dont like this form of punishment note why i posted at alternative methods. Where not talking about a lap dog here. These dogs are buy all accounts working dogs and thus need to be trained to the highest level. Sometime's a form of punishment has to be given in order to keep the dog in check. What would you think if the dog caught the hare and came back to me with it in her mouth? I'm not into hare coursing note why i don't want my gun dog to be either. The only time she should have an animal in her mouth is when its a bird and she's retrieving to me. I think if you looked at the condition of gun dogs come the first of November you wouldn't beleave the condition of them. nine times out of ten there looked after to the highest possible care.

My Grandad trained dogs to keep away from sheep buy sticking them in a stable with a ewe and lamp at foot. Again the time the ewe was finished the dog would never even look at a sheep again.

elius

irish setter wrote: »

just be careful so you don't make her loose interest again by overuse/abuse of the e-collar. sometimes in the pursuit of perfection we can go that one step too far. with an older dog any damage done can be harder undo.

This what i'm afraid off. Ive been blessed in the fact that i have her hunting again. She's showing such a keen interest i'm just being very carefull in what i do.

cavan shooter

Some people say e collars have there uses for training dogs, I dont use them and dont think I would because I train and hunt springers that dont range and therefore are closer to me. I'll go nback to what I said previously I call the dog back and keep putting him into the ditch to slow him after a couple of goes he stays within a clean range.

I havent been down the fields with him for a few weeks because I have some clutches around me and we have been doing some water work. I know he is gagging to beat a ditch and I know that the first couple of treks through the field will be hard work pulling him back to quench his excitement, but again it will be done by whistle and voice.

I have an electric fence collar which is fantastic I cannot knock it with it he has full range of the back of the house.

Sara 13 I agree with you and I would say most would, If I chastise my fella he drops thehead and the most I use is a Finger. In fact he responds better than the kids

EPointer=Birdss

cavan shooter wrote: »

I have an electric fence collar which is fantastic I cannot knock it with it he has full range of the back of the house.

Sara 13 I agree with you and I would say most would, If I chastise my fella he drops thehead and the most I use is a Finger. In fact he responds better than the kids

Bit of a difference in working a Springer to a ranging dog & you described why perfectly - range, ditches etc

However to use a fence collar & think the principle is any different to a training collar is a bit hypocritical! In the inital phase of training the dog will get a few shocks no doubt either way.
There are alot of comments here about the use of them on here & the majority of those talking don't or haven't used them. I know sweet feck all about rifles hence I don't comment. I do read & try & understand more.

The idea is not to shock a dog - it is to stimulate. It is a reminder that you are in touch with him at any range. You do have the option of shocking if required for what ever reason. I have put the thing on my leg & tried it so I know the levels. Once a dog learns all you need to do is use the beep on it. This can save a lot of whistling if that way inclined which I am. I rather hand signals as I find our pheasants very wild.

Just remember not to paint all users of of a training aid wit the same brush. There are a**h**s out there that would destroy a dog by shocking him out of frustration & basically abusing the animal but open the mind a tad realize there are others that use the things as intended by the manufacturer. Such opinions remind me of the non shooting world that think all gun owners are lunatics walking fields taking cracks at everything as they have not taken the opportunity to try & understand it.

Ps the above is not geared at you CS, just general comments.

irish setter

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Bit of a difference in working a Springer to a ranging dog & you described why perfectly - range, ditches etc

However to use a fence collar & think the principle is any different to a training collar is a bit hypocritical! In the inital phase of training the dog will get a few shocks no doubt either way.
There are alot of comments here about the use of them on here & the majority of those talking don't or haven't used them. I know sweet feck all about rifles hence I don't comment. I do read & try & understand more.

The idea is not to shock a dog - it is to stimulate. It is a reminder that you are in touch with him at any range. You do have the option of shocking if required for what ever reason. I have put the thing on my leg & tried it so I know the levels. Once a dog learns all you need to do is use the beep on it. This can save a lot of whistling if that way inclined which I am. I rather hand signals as I find our pheasants very wild.

Just remember not to paint all users of of a training aid wit the same brush. There are a**h**s out there that would destroy a dog by shocking him out of frustration & basically abusing the animal but open the mind a tad realize there are others that use the things as intended by the manufacturer. Such opinions remind me of the non shooting world that think all gun owners are lunatics walking fields taking cracks at everything as they have not taken the opportunity to try & understand it.

Ps the above is not geared at you CS, just general comments.

this is not a post to criticise the use of these collars, i'm sure they are usefull in the right hands especially when taking on an older dog this is just my point of view. when problems arise in training when your dog is out of range i look at it that it's my fault not the dogs, i've been skimpy on some earlier training for the dog to disobey me now. it's my failure as a trainer so i go back a step or two. to me an e-collar is out of the question so i base my training around this. there is always more than one way to skin a cat and i'll always get there in the end even if it takes longer. the most important thing is never let a dog know that it can outrun you.