9 muntjac returned per license applications

J. Ramone

Per http://www.wilddeerireland.com/documentation/Cull%20Figures%202008-2009.xls

Surprisingly unheralded. If the stats are confirmed/correct it's past the point of hush hush wink wink and they are here to stay whether you would like to see them here or not. I had my doubts on the grounds of critical population levels. I've heard a few accounts of them lately first hand by people whom I didn't think needed a trip to specsavers in a hurry. Yet to see one myself though.

Bad and good news rolled into one. I'll be glad to do my bit for biodiversity by keeping them in check.

Tackleberrywho

J. Ramone wrote: »

Per http://www.wilddeerireland.com/documentation/Cull%20Figures%202008-2009.xls

Surprisingly unheralded. If the stats are confirmed/correct it's past the point of hush hush wink wink and they are here to stay whether you would like to see them here or not. I had my doubts on the grounds of critical population levels. I've heard a few accounts of them lately first hand by people whom I didn't think needed a trip to specsavers in a hurry. Yet to see one myself though.

Bad and good news rolled into one. I'll be glad to do my bit for biodiversity by keeping them in check.

Wicklow, Kildare and Clare. Weird pattern there.
The Clare one must have hitched a lift;)

Itsdacraic

From knowing v little about shooting and hunting ( bar a few spins with the foot hounds) I'm amazed there were 30k deer culled last year. Didn't realise they were that populous.

J. Ramone

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Wicklow, Kildare and Clare. Weird pattern there.
The Clare one must have hitched a lift;)

Yep odd alright, Ifor Williams to blame I suspect!

Tackleberrywho

Itsdacraic wrote: »

From knowing v little about shooting and hunting ( bar a few spins with the foot hounds) I'm amazed there were 30k deer culled last year. Didn't realise they were that populous.

And getting bigger, and shooters getting thinner on the ground due to licencing.

Ironic really

I live a good drive from mountain and i have seen deer on my next door neighbors lands

Dusty87

Itsdacraic wrote: »

From knowing v little about shooting and hunting ( bar a few spins with the foot hounds) I'm amazed there were 30k deer culled last year. Didn't realise they were that populous.

Popular enough if you know where to look;)
Theres 3 or 4 herds around me. Here pics from the large herd, a couple of minutes walk from the home place.

dwighet

Id say there all over the place..
Give it a few more years....

Dusty87

ya know the way they say muntjac and roe wont live in the same area??
Do they have any affect on other species such as fallow or sika??

jwshooter

thats 30,000 returned ,how many have been poacher another 10,000 +

sikastag

jwshooter wrote: »

thats 30,000 returned ,how many have been poacher another 10,000 +

At least........

BELOWaverageIQ

I'm surprised at the countrywide return of reds ??

Deerspotter

It makes tragic reading to see that there are more males than females shot in some counties still.
Isn't it the case that taking out a stag has little impact on the population except for himself...?
Given the fact that by this stage many hunters have done the HCAP or should at least have some clue about proper herd management, it is a shame to see everyone still wants the trophy...
Shooting six pointers is such a waste really, they ain't a trophy but they will be next year and the meat ain't great (let's be honest, compared to a milk fed calf)...
I am of the opinion that in most parts of Wicklow, Sika do not have a proper rut any more, as there is more than enough hinds for each stag, as the stags are so thinned out compared to hinds.
Shame really, it is was a lovely time for deer spotting, now it has changed beyond recognition for me.

jwshooter

Deerspotter wrote: »

It makes tragic reading to see that there are more males than females shot in some counties still.
Isn't it the case that taking out a stag has little impact on the population except for himself...?
Given the fact that by this stage many hunters have done the HCAP or should at least have some clue about proper herd management, it is a shame to see everyone still wants the trophy...
Shooting six pointers is such a waste really, they ain't a trophy but they will be next year and the meat ain't great (let's be honest, compared to a milk fed calf)...
I am of the opinion that in most parts of Wicklow, Sika do not have a proper rut any more, as there is more than enough hinds for each stag, as the stags are so thinned out compared to hinds.
Shame really, it is was a lovely time for deer spotting, now it has changed beyond recognition for me.

i put a proposal to coillte years ago to cull hinds only mid week on some ground .
no way would they have it .

every one that stalk/culls deer at some stage is entitled to a trophy for there wall .
when i started i was told never shoot a male unless there was good reason and never shoot a stag lesser that the one you have .

i know a lot of stalkers that dont eat venison or bother with hinds to much .

as far as the HCAP i heard of a lad form waterford who failed his range test and his buddy ended up doing it for him ,this guy has coillte leases .

hopefully the down turn will weed out the chaff form the wheat

clivej

And not all the returns are back in yet.

On a point here.
If it's open season on the Muntjak how can you shoot them in the rest of the year if the deer hunting license only gives you hunting permission for the stalking seaso, Sep - Feb?

natdog

Deerspotter wrote: »

It makes tragic reading to see that there are more males than females shot in some counties still.
Isn't it the case that taking out a stag has little impact on the population except for himself...?
Given the fact that by this stage many hunters have done the HCAP or should at least have some clue about proper herd management, it is a shame to see everyone still wants the trophy...
Shooting six pointers is such a waste really, they ain't a trophy but they will be next year and the meat ain't great (let's be honest, compared to a milk fed calf)...
have to disagree with you on the meat i find pricket to six pointer great meat i like something with a bit of flavour.
Maybe they should have a look at the way the season is done i hate shooting does in Febuary because they tend to be carrying at that stage nothing worse than ponching and finding the foetous.

Tackleberrywho

Deerspotter wrote: »

It makes tragic reading to see that there are more males than females shot in some counties still.
Isn't it the case that taking out a stag has little impact on the population except for himself...?
Given the fact that by this stage many hunters have done the HCAP or should at least have some clue about proper herd management, it is a shame to see everyone still wants the trophy...
Shooting six pointers is such a waste really, they ain't a trophy but they will be next year and the meat ain't great (let's be honest, compared to a milk fed calf)...
I am of the opinion that in most parts of Wicklow, Sika do not have a proper rut any more, as there is more than enough hinds for each stag, as the stags are so thinned out compared to hinds.
Shame really, it is was a lovely time for deer spotting, now it has changed beyond recognition for me.

To date I have shot ~50/50

there are far more does than stags near where i hunt.

i do reckon they may be poached as AfaIK I am the only person with permission to shoot them there with a NPWS permit.

I had a neighbor who asked me to shoot stags only as they were destroying his young plantation. I assured him If you get the does you will reduce stags quicker.
Also the does grazed the fcuk out of his barley. Made them very tasty though, barley fed deer.
Much nicer than mountainy meat!:D:D

jwshooter

natdog wrote: »

Deerspotter wrote: »

It makes tragic reading to see that there are more males than females shot in some counties still.
Isn't it the case that taking out a stag has little impact on the population except for himself...?
Given the fact that by this stage many hunters have done the HCAP or should at least have some clue about proper herd management, it is a shame to see everyone still wants the trophy...
Shooting six pointers is such a waste really, they ain't a trophy but they will be next year and the meat ain't great (let's be honest, compared to a milk fed calf)...
have to disagree with you on the meat i find pricket to six pointer great meat i like something with a bit of flavour.
Maybe they should have a look at the way the season is done i hate shooting does in Febuary because they tend to be carrying at that stage nothing worse than ponching and finding the foetous.

thats the problem ,feb is a great time to cull hinds .

some counties like wexford would have a high stag to hind ratio as stags can travel 30 miles a few nites ,this generally happens late sep when the stag herds break up ,lesser stags are pushed out ,also the reason male calf/prickets make up a lot of the returns

Tackleberrywho

I think that IDS chart is inaccurate, red deer and sika listed as shot in offaly, I think maybe the hunters were from offaly.;)
Does this mean that the whole chart is not accurate if the counties shot are not accurate??

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I think that IDS chart is inaccurate, red deer and sika listed as shot in offaly, I think maybe the hunters were from offaly.;)
Does this mean that the whole chart is not accurate if the counties shot are not accurate??

there is sika and red in offaly ,iv seen the sika .

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

there is sika and red in offaly ,iv seen the sika .

Where?

I have never seen either nor have any of my deer hunting friends either.
Or heard sika which are unmistakable as I have heard them in Wickla.

Not to say they are not there.

We are a long way from the Wickla mountains.

ghostmantra

its spelled wicklow (the garden county):D

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Where?

I have never seen either nor have any of my deer hunting friends either.
Or heard sika which are unmistakable as I have heard them in Wickla.

Not to say they are not there.

We are a long way from the Wickla mountains.

that my good man is no concern of yours .

Dusty87

A pricket started running with the uncles cattle a while back. I reckon its a sika. Not a million miles from offaly border. Have only seen fallow in offaly, never seen or heard of red or sika, but this sika in the uncles, there must be

patsat

clivej wrote: »

On a point here.
If it's open season on the Muntjak how can you shoot them in the rest of the year if the deer hunting license only gives you hunting permission for the stalking seaso, Sep - Feb?

It gives the stalking seasons for each species on the back but if you read the front of the hunting license it says it is valid from the date of issue up until the following 31st of july!

Hope that clears it up for you.

Deerspotter

Whilst I understand the unpleasantness of finding a foetus whilst gutting the hind, there is little that is pleasant about that process, hence the question has to be asked; what difference does it really make?
As JW says, February is a great month for culling hinds, they are hungry and on the move and I would always be sure of seeing hinds in high numbers in February.

Another point that is relevant is the question of how accurate this info is. I know of hunters who have no clue how much they shot during a season and then fill in the return with the quota for the forest or a number that would make the farmer happy.
I heard a 23 point red-stag taken in Carlow last season, but only one red stag for Carlow is on the form??

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

that my good man is no concern of yours .

i asked a fella today who lives in the opposite side of the county and he explained why7 they are there.

You are quite right JW.
I know know where they are, turns out a friend of mine has shooting where they are at. I might swap him some of my fallow for some of his red.
I'd love to see if they taste different.

jwshooter

Deerspotter wrote: »

Whilst I understand the unpleasantness of finding a foetus whilst gutting the hind, there is little that is pleasant about that process, hence the question has to be asked; what difference does it really make?
As JW says, February is a great month for culling hinds, they are hungry and on the move and I would always be sure of seeing hinds in high numbers in February.

Another point that is relevant is the question of how accurate this info is. I know of hunters who have no clue how much they shot during a season and then fill in the return with the quota for the forest or a number that would make the farmer happy.
I heard a 23 point red-stag taken in Carlow last season, but only one red stag for Carlow is on the form??

i know of one case where a chap put in over 200 animals into a game dealer and did not return the same .

if seeing a foetus disturbs you that's your problem and over time you will over come it ,i would always sex it late on .
possibly not the most rewarding job buy it has to be done ,jan/feb are great months to cull as the stag men are in the pub talking crxp.

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

i know of one case where a chap put in over 200 animals into a game dealer and did not return the same .

if seeing a foetus disturbs you that's your problem and over time you will over come it ,i would always sex it late on .
possibly not the most rewarding job buy it has to be done ,jan/feb are great months to cull as the stag men are in the pub talking crxp.

I reckon folk would be afraid to be accurate. Especially if they are taking a lot of deer.
They may be afraid the will not be issued a licence for the next season.

cbrjohnthou

jwshooter wrote: »

there is sika and red in offaly ,iv seen the sika .

I,ve seen the Red

daithi55

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Where?

I have never seen either nor have any of my deer hunting friends either.
Or heard sika which are unmistakable as I have heard them in Wickla.

Not to say they are not there.

We are a long way from the Wickla mountains.

i shoot in offaly and live in tipp ive seen a good few reds on my land this year and there not young there fully grown haven a clue where they came from all of a sudden
the only deer ive ever seen in the area is fallow until now

cbrjohnthou

daithi55 wrote: »

i shoot in offaly and live in tipp ive seen a good few reds on my land this year and there not young there fully grown haven a clue where they came from all of a sudden
the only deer ive ever seen in the area is fallow until now

Maybe the wood that was holding them has been cut down forcing them to move onto your ground, eitherways, happy days for you Daithi:)

Tackleberrywho

shank1 wrote: »

Maybe the wood that was holding them has been cut down forcing them to move onto your ground, eitherways, happy days for you Daithi:)

I think it was a pilot introduction project to re-establish a herd of native deer.

I could be corrected on that, I asked a fella who lives there at the weekend and we did not get a chance to go into detail.

I'd love to shoot a red in the Faithful County

cbrjohnthou

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I think it was a pilot introduction project to re-establish a herd of native deer.

I could be corrected on that, I asked a fella who lives there at the weekend and we did not get a chance to go into detail.

I'd love to shoot a red in the Faithful County

Well if thats the case and they are trying to re establish them then they should let people know not to shoot them, in Fairness if I come across any I aint gonna be takin pictures if ya know what I mean;).

daithi55

shank1 wrote: »

Maybe the wood that was holding them has been cut down forcing them to move onto your ground, eitherways, happy days for you Daithi:)

to be honest mate i do no where they came from but if i mention how there around
lads will start flocking there to get a shot at them the story would link it straight to them

cbrjohnthou

daithi55 wrote: »

to be honest mate i do no where they came from but if i mention how there around
lads will start flocking there to get a shot at them the story would link it straight to them

Oh whatever you do keep it to yourself mate, your dead right about that, I know where there is a small herd of them but I aint broadcasting it either for the same reason;)

J. Ramone

I found the 2004/2005 cull figures which make an interesting comparison countrywide http://www.irishdeersociety.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=164:the-expanding-irish-deer-population&catid=60:welfare&Itemid=90

Looks like any counties which have low numbers will see that change before too long. Forestry planting is continuing at a good pace countrywide so habitat is probably expanding at a rate to match deer numbers. Wexford has jumped from 47 animals repoted in 2004/5 to 150 in 2009/10. Wicklow has probably peaked as deer seem less plentiful even though more are being returned. It could be argued that increased shooting effort accounts for a lot of the increase. So too has poaching increased which will not be reflected in the numbers returned and will hamper legitimate culling and recreational stalking.

If muntjac take off in the next couple of years, we could be shooting a lot more deer. If you take the figure of six returned, add another 10 unreturned this would give you 16 which might represent 10% of the population, ie 160. The expansion rate in numbers is estimated to be just under 10% in the UK. This is with saturation in many areas. With low densities here and ideal habitat such as found in the lower hills and woodland of eastern Wicklow it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect an expansion in numbers somewhere around 40%. This could give a population of over 4,000 in 10 years. Food for thought.

Half-cocked

If 9 Muntjac were shot, there must be 100's out there. They are a small, very furtive, hard to spot species, living in heavy cover. Its safe to assume a very small percentage of the population were shot.

jwshooter

Half-cocked wrote: »

If 9 Muntjac were shot, there must be 100's out there. They are a small, very furtive, hard to spot species, living in heavy cover. Its safe to assume a very small percentage of the population were shot.

funny no pictures have turned up in the media .

Sparks

It is entirely possible, jw, that they're more focussed on things like the entire economy collapsing, the political system in turmoil as a result, €22 billion euros being dumped into Anglo (never to be seen again), and all the other large stories over the last year. The picture of a small new deer isn't even going to trump the stag hunting stories in the press. All of which is a commentary on how TV and newspapers are made, not what's actually happening.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

It is entirely possible, jw, that they're more focussed on things like the entire economy collapsing, the political system in turmoil as a result, €22 billion euros being dumped into Anglo (never to be seen again), and all the other large stories over the last year. The picture of a small new deer isn't even going to trump the stag hunting stories in the press. All of which is a commentary on how TV and newspapers are made, not what's actually happening.

dispite the economy in tatters . not one pic or local paper story has a story of a muntjac been shot .

the one in wicklow made head lines as did the one in the north they made tv infact .

so dont tell me that 9 muntjac were culled last year and not a whisper about it .

the stalking circle is small and its filled with trophy hunters that like to talk .



we would have heard of them .

Sparks

So are you saying that the cull figures are wrong, from all over the country, based on what your friends are saying down the pub?

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

So are you saying that the cull figures are wrong, from all over the country, based on what your friends are saying down the pub?

not one for the pub ,but i do hear a lot .

Sparks

Then you're saying the cull figures are unreliable?

dwighet

Sparks wrote: »

Then you're saying the cull figures are unreliable?

Of course they are

Dusty87

In fairness Sparks the country was in sh1t since late 2008, they still managed to have write ups on big cat sightings, muntjac sightings, and wild boar sightings. Even the escapee boar that was shot got a mention and a photo.
I agree with Jw,

Sparks

Okay, so the cull figures are an unreliable source of data.
And jw is an unreliable source of data (not jw himself, but those talking to him - because if the hunters will fib on cull reports, they'll fib when reporting to jw as well - it's not fair to assume they'd fib to one and not to the other).
So it boils down to physical, verified evidence.
Wasn't there a munjac shot a while ago and the body confirmed as a muntjac and photographed and so forth?

Dusty87

Sparks wrote: »

Wasn't there a munjac shot a while ago and the body confirmed as a muntjac and photographed and so forth?

Never heard that Sparks. Nor seen the photo. Im not bein smart saying that, i just havnt seen it. Usually it would be posted here, if that happened.
Sparks think of it this way. If YOU shot a muntjac, or any species not known to be in Ireland. Would you take a photo?? In this country the story would be doin the rounds quicker than Linford Christie on speed. Weather you wanted it to or not.
Very easy for someone to say over a pint, 'i shot a muntjac'.

Sparks

It's just that John Griffin said they were confirmed as living wild in wicklow two years ago Dusty. I'm no hunter, but I'll take the word of the local NWPS ranger unless someone can prove otherwise.

He also photographed one:

Dusty87

Sparks, look, if Dusty87 posted there were Roe in Offaly would you believe it?? Iv no problem with John Griffen, but he did not say he seen them himself.
I read all the time, 'i seen a muntjac/boar'. Where the fook was the rifle??
Im sorry Sparks, im not doubting it, but if i shot a boar/muntjac/big pussy, id be taking a fecking picture!!!!
Jeez man, anyone would. 'Yea i shot a 'jac, but i didnt bother taking a picture'.
Yet people take pictures of Fallow/sika stags heck even fecking bunnys every day. And you think 9 muntjacs shot and not one pic. Sorry sparky marky, i dont buy it.
Prove me wrong the hands will be up.

cbrjohnthou

Lads the way I see it is like this, as soon as we shoot a deer with a decent head on him or even an unusual looking animal the camera phone is out quicker than John Wayne could whip out his mickey:D, the pics are then sent to friends and passed on from there an so on. IF anyone had shot a Muntjac last year at least one pic would have been circulated to other hunters.

we are all hearing but not seeing:cool:

Dusty87

shank1 wrote: »

Lads the way I see it is like this, as soon as we shoot a deer with a decent head on him or even an unusual looking animal the camera phone is out quicker than John Wayne could whip out his mickey:D, the pics are then sent to friends and passed on from there an so on. IF anyone had shot a Muntjac last year at least one pic would have been circulated to other hunters.

we are all hearing but not seeing:cool:

Good man shank