Referendum(s)

Kevster

This is an intelligent post (I think...) and therefore I don't want any impatient emotional responses.

I got my new passport today and loved seeing the emblem of Ireland on its cover - i.e. the harp. We are the only nation on Earth to have a musical instrument as our national emblem. I am of the opinion that we should change our flag to the 'old' golden harp image on a dark-green background. Our current flag is too normal.

Also, I would like to have Irish as our only primary language, and English as secondary.

I think it would be very interesting to see how the public vote on these two issues.

Kevin

PS - If you look at my location you'll see that i'm in the UK. I just moved here last August, and I knew beforehand that I would have to leave Ireland in order to grow to love it more.

prinz

No and No. How's that for a vote?

Having a harp is really not that unique as a national emblem tbh, other countries have animals, objects and mythological creatures etc.

seamus

The flag idea isn't actually a bad one IMO, just with a bit of tweaking. How about the tricolour with a harp in the middle of the white section? That would instantly make the flag recognisable among the two (3?) similar flags which are out there.

As for making Irish the primary language of the State, that would have a whole pile of ramifications in terms of broadcasting, publishing, law, road signage, etc. Besides that, there is a strong dislike of Irish within the public because of the way that it's taught in school. I think we like the idea of our Irish identity and most of us would love to be able to speak Irish, but the process of being force-fed Irish in school means that we associate it with bad feelings.

Sleepy

On the flag issue my only objection would be practical - the cost of such a move would be quite an unaffordable luxury at this point. Idealistically, you might find that many would oppose the move as it could be seen to be an acceptabce of the fact that the north is a separate sovereign state - as without the orange in the tricolour we'd be broadcasting that this was a republican state.

The second I'd be both idealogically and practically opposed to. I don't accept the argument that Gaeilge is the language of our people. There's quite a heated debate on whether it should receive the current level of state support it has in a topic on it's compulsory status in education on this forum at the moment, I can't see the idea of increased status and governmental support for the language being either popular outside of a minority of the electorate, affordable at any point or in any way a positive in promoting our country on the world-stage.

Cookie_Monster

I am of the opinion that we should change our flag to the 'old' golden harp image on a dark-green background

A bit of research show this is the flag of Leinster, not Ireland per say. Though it was used as the Irish flag for a while.

Therefore it would be incorrect to use it I think.

As for the Irish bit, not likely. If this was voted for there would be a huge majority rejecting it I think.

SeaFields

seamus wrote: »

The flag idea isn't actually a bad one IMO, just with a bit of tweaking. How about the tricolour with a harp in the middle of the white section?

On the ball! This occured to me awhile back for some reason - was prob daydreaming

And how about the flag is changed in 6 years time at the 100th anniversary of the 1916 rising ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mrmoe

Changing the flag might not be a bad idea but I don't think it would necessarily be something to do in the short term. It would definitely be something to look at when re-unification with the North occurs. I do not think changing priorities towards Irish away from English is practical though, as other posters have said it actually gives us an advantage compared to a lot of other countries who do not have it as their main first language.

bmaxi

I don't really see a need to change the emblem. As for the language, I've been to most countries in Europe and it is quite easy to get by using English, I can't see that being the case with Irish. I doubt you could get by in Dublin using Irish.

blubloblu

The president already uses a similar flag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_President_of_Ireland.svg

Lockstep

I'm well in favour of having the Flag of Leinster as the national flag. I have a copy of it hanging in my room. Always thought it was much classier looking than the tricolour as well as much more recognisable. It was used as the Irish flag before the tricolour too so wouldn't see it as impractical or solely to do with Leinster.

Cookie_Monster

how about this one?

Lockstep

It doesn't look as awesome.

I find the Leinster flag to look amazing. Really stirring stuff.
The United Irishmen used it (a mix of Protestants and Catholics united) so it has historical background.

Laminations

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how about this one?

Have we just been voted out of Britains Got Talent by Piers Morgan?

Cookie_Monster

kickoutthejams wrote: »

It doesn't look as awesome.

I find the Leinster flag to look amazing. Really stirring stuff.

its plain green with a musical instrument on it, hardly "awesome"

Laminations wrote: »

Have we just been voted out of Britains Got Talent by Piers Morgan?

it is another old Irish flag

Lockstep

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its plain green with a musical instrument on it, hardly "awesome"

Yes, which gives it a much more striking look than three bands of colour. Also means it's much less likely to be mistaken for the Côte D'Ivoir flag.

It also has a more Irish-centered historical base rather than a basing on the French Tricolour.

Cookie_Monster

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yes, which gives it a much more striking look than three bands of colour. Also means it's much less likely to be mistaken for the Côte D'Ivoir flag.

it would then get mixed up with Libya though

Lockstep

Crafty Libyans...

Harp helps though.

Iwasfrozen

Cookie_Monster wrote:

Really? Two people on thread didn't recognise the cross of St. Patrick?
Words fail me.

Anyway, my only problem with the green flag with golden harp is that it is the flag of Leinster. We should have a flag representing all four provinces.

Personally I have always liked this:

Laminations

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it would then get mixed up with Libya though

If we are looking for meaningful and unique flags unlikely to be confused with another country then we may as well tell it like it is




I actually like our flag, it symbolises our stuggle for independence and our desire for lasting peace and multiculturalism

The flag, as a whole, is intended to symbolise the inclusion and hoped-for union of the people of different traditions on the island of Ireland, which is expressed in the Constitution as the entitlement of every person born in Ireland to be part of the independent Irish nation, regardless of ethnic origin, religion or political conviction.[23][24]

Laminations

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Really? Two people on thread didn't recognise the cross of St. Patrick?
Words fail me.

If you think I didnt recognise it, I did, I was merely making a joke about having a big red X as our flag. This old Irish flag makes up part of the Union flag of Britain

Laminations

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anyway, my only problem with the green flag with golden harp is that it is the flag of Leinster. We should have a flag representing all four provinces.

Personally I have always liked this:

How many different coloured crayons would a child need to draw that complicated yoke? Personally I like the simplicity and sentiment our current tricolour has

Iwasfrozen

Laminations wrote: »

If you think I didnt recognise it, I did, I was merely making a joke about having a big red X as our flag. This old Irish flag makes up part of the Union flag of Britain

Oh ok.

And I know.

Iwasfrozen

Laminations wrote: »

How many different coloured crayons would a child need to draw that complicated yoke? Personally I like the simplicity and sentiment our current tricolour has

Yeah but it's too simple. Also what does it matter if children can't draw it? I'd like to see any child draw the American flag.

Laminations

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah but it's too simple. Also what does it matter if children can't draw it? I'd like to see any child draw the American flag.

They can actually draw it

AND it only requires two colours

Iwasfrozen

Laminations wrote: »

They can actually draw it

AND it only requires two colours

They haven't drawn it though. There are supposed to be fifty stars and thirteen alternating red and white strips. So they can't draw it.

Laminations

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They haven't drawn it though. There are supposed to be fifty stars and thirteen alternating red and white strips. So they can't draw it.

Ah come on, give them a break, they're only kids!!!

Liam Byrne

The current flag (despite being incorrectly described all over the place as "green white and gold") is green, white and orange, symbolising peace (white) between green ("native Irishmen" ?) and orange (orangemen).

So that should stay.

I definitely wouldn't be on for using the Leinster flag to represent the whole country.

How about this one for an "exactly what it says on the tin" flag ?

Lockstep

Laminations wrote: »

If you think I didnt recognise it, I did, I was merely making a joke about having a big red X as our flag. This old Irish flag makes up part of the Union flag of Britain

Pretty much what he said.
I'd say everyone recognised it, just that there's better alternative flags out there (I prefer the tricolour to St Patrick's Cross)

sparkling sea

I think the Irish flag is fine as it is so I would be against changing it unless someone had a good reason for doing so.

The national anthem is in Irish and many people can't sing it because the don't know the words, also only a small minority of people who know the words actually know the meaning of the words.

I think something like Ireland's Call would be better, either way I would like the anthem to be sung in English so that everyone could have a chance of learning it.

Iwasfrozen

sparkling sea wrote: »

I think something like Ireland's Call would be better, either way I would like the anthem to be sung in English so that everyone could have a chance of learning it.

Eww, please tell me you're joking. We would be an international laughing stock.

Cookie_Monster

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Eww, please tell me you're joking.

+1

We would be an international laughing stock.

we already are though

Banking
Nama
political corruption and incompetence
etc etc etc

Kevster

prinz wrote: »

No and No. How's that for a vote?

Having a harp is really not that unique as a national emblem tbh, other countries have animals, objects and mythological creatures etc.

For Christ's sake dude - I said that it's the only national emblem that contains a musical instrument.

Anyway, thank you for all of the responses. I really appreciate them. THe flag idea seems to have some support but maybe not the language. To be honest, when I was still living in Ireland, I'd have been all against having Irish as our main language too. However, as I'm now technically a foreigner in the UK, I've grown to appreciate everything Irish.

Please do'nt start discussing the national anthem, as that is not what the topic is about.

prinz

Kevster wrote: »

For Christ's sake dude - I said that it's the only national emblem that contains a musical instrument.

.....and?

Iwasfrozen

prinz wrote: »

.....and?

And it's unique. Looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today Mr. Grumpy pants.

Iwasfrozen

Kevster wrote: »

Anyway, thank you for all of the responses. I really appreciate them. THe flag idea seems to have some support but maybe not the language. To be honest, when I was still living in Ireland, I'd have been all against having Irish as our main language too. However, as I'm now technically a foreigner in the UK, I've grown to appreciate everything Irish.

I do support changing the flag because let's face it the one we have at the moment is crap. Howver I don't think the flag of Leinster should represrnt the entire country.

I understand were you are coming at in regards the language but ask yourself this, how would you like to replace your everyday language? We don't want to either for obvious practical reasons.

limklad

Mrmoe wrote: »

Changing the flag might not be a bad idea but I don't think it would necessarily be something to do in the short term. It would definitely be something to look at when re-unification with the North occurs. I do not think changing priorities towards Irish away from English is practical though, as other posters have said it actually gives us an advantage compared to a lot of other countries who do not have it as their main first language.

If you talk about Unity with northern Ireland the Irish Flag is perfect representation of the Traditions of Ireland.

For those who do not know what our Flag means, here it is.

Green Strip: Stands for Irish Nationalist (Catholics) Tradition.
Orange Strip: Stands for Irish Unionist (Protestants) Tradition.
White in the Middle: Stands for Peace and Unity between the two Traditions.


Over the years of the troubles, I always taught it was hypocrisy that when Sinn Fein and others in the North waving the Flag in anger against the Unionist.

Bottle_of_Smoke

limklad wrote: »

Over the years of the troubles, I always taught it was hypocrisy that when Sinn Fein and others in the North waving the Flag in anger against the Unionist.

Not really what they were doing. Who was 'the unionist'?

The provincial flag for a 32-county Ireland would be ideal for me but it is too complicated as is. Perhaps they could take an element from each on a plain blue background for a simpler symbol

Iwasfrozen

limklad wrote: »

If you talk about Unity with northern Ireland the Irish Flag is perfect representation of the Traditions of Ireland.

The four provinces flag is a better representation. I contains the flag of all four past kingdoms. Including Ulster.

Lockstep

As much as I like the four flags, using them together as a flag itself is impractical.

Miniscule flags are needed for soldiers uniforms for example, and even a tiny badge of the tricolour or any one of the individual provincial flags is recognisable. They would too miniscule to be visible when merged into one flag.

wonderfulname

Kevster wrote: »

I would like to have Irish as our only primary language, and English as secondary.

Well your in luck!!

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

And I like our flag, gets us confused with Italy once in a blue moon, Italy rocks.

Kevster

wonderfulname wrote: »

And I like our flag, gets us confused with Italy once in a blue moon, Italy rocks.

It's more likely to be confused with the Ivory Coast's flag, which is the mirror-image of ours.

Which act did you quote from, be the way?

Edit: I can see that it's the constitution act (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm) - i.e. Bunreacht na hÉireann

Lockstep

Kevster wrote: »

It's more likely to be confused with the Ivory Coast's flag, which is the mirror-image of ours.

Which act did you quote from, be the way?

Edit: I can see that it's the constitution act (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm) - i.e. Bunreacht na hÉireann

When I was on recruit camp with the RDF, one poor lad's uniform had the Irish flag on back to front. Poor guy was sporting the heraldry of the Ivory Coast.

aDeener

sparkling sea wrote: »

I think the Irish flag is fine as it is so I would be against changing it unless someone had a good reason for doing so.

The national anthem is in Irish and many people can't sing it because the don't know the words, also only a small minority of people who know the words actually know the meaning of the words.

I think something like Ireland's Call would be better, either way I would like the anthem to be sung in English so that everyone could have a chance of learning it.

:rolleyes:

mrboswell

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The current flag (despite being incorrectly described all over the place as "green white and gold") is green, white and orange, symbolising peace (white) between green ("native Irishmen" ?) and orange (orangemen).

So that should stay.

I disagree - Wasn't the flag originally used to represent the claim over a united Ireland?

Since Ireland is not united yet shouldn't the orange part be dropped until Ireland is actually united?


With regard to the Irish language - so long as we treat it as and teach it in our schools as a foreign language it will never take any form of serious foothold.

To say that making english our second language will distance us from other english speaking countries is rubbish - there are plenty of countries that speak english as their second language far better than we can speak Irish.

It is more likely that english would thrive in Ireland as a second language due to its prevalence around the world while Irish could remain our main language.

That will never happen though. I fear that without drastic changes the Irish language is effectively dead.

Iwasfrozen

mrboswell wrote: »

IWith regard to the Irish language - so long as we treat it as and teach it in our schools as a foreign language it will never take any form of serious foothold.

Agreed.

mrboswell wrote: »

To say that making english our second language will distance us from other english speaking countries is rubbish - there are plenty of countries that speak english as their second language far better than we can speak Irish.

These countries English as their second language with another language as their first. Their motivation to learn English is to improve their career opportunities and utilize the huge amount of English language media.

This doesn't work the other way around. The motivation to learn Irish for career or media oppertunities simply does not exist. Quite the opposite in fact. Where we to start speaking Irish it would have a negitive effect on such industries as tourism or the servicing of Transnational Coperations which benifite from our ability to speak English.

mrboswell wrote: »

It is more likely that english would thrive in Ireland as a second language due to its prevalence around the world while Irish could remain our main language.

That will never happen though. I fear that without drastic changes the Irish language is effectively dead.

English already does trive. 99.9% of the population speak the language fluently. There is no need nor motivation for our five million or so people to spend countless hours learning a new language.

With English, the number one spoken language in the world by total number of speaker, the most prevelent language in the country. There is simply no motivational factor to learn Irish. Especially en masse.

Kevster

I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.

Kevin

Iwasfrozen

Kevster wrote: »

I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.

But what of the Older Generation? They wouldn't be able to pick up the language and probably wouldn't be too keen on the idea of half the country speaking Irish while they speak English.

Cookie_Monster

it'll take a lot longer than a gneration. don't foget most of the current generation speak barely a word of Irish and many resent it due to the way it was taught. This resentment will be passed onto kids in many cases and will take decade and decade to mean out.

I know (remember) little Irish, never speak it, see no need for it. I'd rather we taught our kids a useful language like French, German, SPanish or Chinese instead. English and two foreign language would be much better than Eng, Irish and one foreign language and put us on par with most other EU countries.

Denerick

Kevster wrote: »

I believe he was implying that if Irish was treated strictly as our first language, then English would still thrive. How long would it actually take to 'transfer' everyone into speaking Irish? We already have the basics of it and could pick it up. Children/tenagers in school might find the transition difficult, but children starting school wouldn't. It would surely take just one generation or less for a complete overhaul.

Kevin

I believe you are asking two questions here, so I'll answer both appropriately.

1) In terms of a national strategy aimed at converting an English speaking nation into a Gaelic one, I believe there is only one modern precedent - Israel. The Israelis succesfully managed to make Hebrew the primary language of the new state, despite its long decline over the previous 300 years. Though even at that, it was infinitely more widespread in Israel in 1948 than Gaelic was in Ireland in 1922.

The only way one could feasibly envisage Irish becoming our primary language would be if the entire education system was forced to communicate as Gaelige. Try to do that, and there will be a revolution. See answer number 2.

2) Reviving Irish is a pathetic cause and a symptom of a nation and a people who are insecure about what they are. Irish was on the decline ever since O'Connell famously insulted it in the 1840s, and after the famine it had effectively died as a primary language for the vast majority of the Irish people. The struggle since then has been influenced by a quasi authoritarian 'Gaelicism', an ideology so pernicious and self defeating that it led to 70 years of incompetence, povery, and emigration in this country. The obsession with 'self sufficiency', 'the noble Gael', and maintaining this dead language is embarassing for our national pysche and for our collective sense of identity. Ireland has a rich cultural heritage, but it loses most of its vitality when its directed top down by the State on an unwilling people.

If Irish is to have any future, it must be a grassroots movement, it must spring up from underneath the pretty rural streams and once again blossom into a national language. However, the dead hand of the State in this area has proven time and time again to be counterproductive.

Let the individual and the people decide what is their national culture. Please, lets put an end to the chauvinistic State. One would have hoped and prayed that it died along with De Valera, but alas, its with us still.

Kevster

Denerick wrote: »

lIf Irish is to have any future, it must be a grassroots movement, it must spring up from underneath the pretty rural streams and once again blossom into a national language. However, the dead hand of the State in this area has proven time and time again to be counterproductive.

Indeed, but people who are elected to government are invariably too stupid to see that a grass-roots approach is the way forward (just as Mr. Bush was stupid to think he could make Iraq a 'free' place by bombing the **** out of it). No, such things require the seeds to be planted at - as you've mentioned the grass roots level.

I regard this issue as closed now and will not be further responding. Make the ashes of this thread as you please.

Kevin