Long runs for half marathon distance

shels4ever

Just wondering what type of distance people are going to cover if training for a half marathon. Was talking about my training plan tonight for a half mara and their view was that my long runs will be too long.

The longest run i'll be doing (fingers crosse) will be 18 miles and with 3 X 15 and 1 X 16mile with the rest will be in the 10-12 range.

If anything I though that I might have not been doing enough....

Just wondered what people would do?

Just a note thatmy plan is basically just lot of easy miles until the body canhandle faster running, So will only be doing 1 other session per week that willbe a temp and maybe some interval work late in the plan.

Woddle

Hi Shels I haven't read the other thread but my opinion is 15 is plenty for a half and once your covering that easily in training just try do a little quality within the 15. My own opinion based on nothing

shels4ever

Woddle wrote: »

Hi Shels I haven't read the other thread but my opinion is 15 is plenty for a half and once your covering that easily in training just try do a little quality within the 15. My own opinion based on nothing

I know where your coming from, my thinking is 15 miles would be a regular long run if I was fit and training for a 10k . So had added a couple of extra on.

Woddle

See I think your a bit like me and what that means is you'll always have a bit of a marathon mentality to your training, why would you need to run another 5 miles which would be run slower than race pace so your not just adding an extra 5 miles/45 mins to your run, but your adding possibly an extra 58 mins to your predicted race time, so I don't know why you need to run for an extra hour, figures are based on a half marathon of 1'40.

shels4ever

Woddle wrote: »

See I think your a bit like me and what that means is you'll always have a bit of a marathon mentality to your training, why would you need to run another 5 miles which would be run slower than race pace so your not just adding an extra 5 miles/45 mins to your run, but your adding possibly an extra 58 mins to your predicted race time, so I don't know why you need to run for an extra hour, figures are based on a half marathon of 1'40.

The thinking was that with 15 mile runs race 13 mile the distance may still be an issue, ifi'm getting 18miles done easy then its a 13 mile race and not a run.

The extra 58 mins is 58 mins more fat burning too

I did have a plan made for me that i'm not folloiwng and going on time the max distance would have been 16/17 miles so maybe not a huge distance.

tisnotover

shels4ever wrote: »

Just wondering what type of distance people are going to cover if training for a half marathon. Was talking about my training plan tonight for a half mara and their view was that my long runs will be too long.

The longest run i'll be doing (fingers crosse) will be 18 miles and with 3 X 15 and 1 X 16mile with the rest will be in the 10-12 range.

If anything I though that I might have not been doing enough....

Just wondered what people would do?

Just a note thatmy plan is basically just lot of easy miles until the body canhandle faster running, So will only be doing 1 other session per week that willbe a temp and maybe some interval work late in the plan.

Looking back at my log from last yr, I did 1x15mile with the rest all in 11-13mile range. These runs were all done over hills and at a slow pace.

I don't think ya need the 3x15mile runs...and def not the 18mile run. A long run over a route with hills that maybe reflects the course your going running itslef is enough.

The key run would be tempo..maybe two days before the long run. the tempo is what will get your half goal time. I would put more focus into building quality into the tempo once your long runs are in the 11-13 mile range.

What half are you aiming for ? All the best with the training.

TheRoadRunner

My fastest halfs came during my marathon training cycles so for me I'll be running up to 20 miles at the weekend for the national half. When training for 10ks my long runs are around 15. There isn't a huge difference in the lsr for 10km and marathon in my opinion. Frequency and pace is generally the main difference.

tisnotover

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

My fastest halfs came during my marathon training cycles so for me I'll be running up to 20 miles at the weekend for the national half. When training for 10ks my long runs are around 15. There isn't a huge difference in the lsr for 10km and marathon in my opinion. Frequency and pace is generally the main difference.

Saw this too roadrunner myself w.r.t the marathon training and half improvement, I guess I was thinking of the half as a stand-alone goal.

Interesting to read your going to run upto 20miles for the LSR.

If I can ask ya, whats your opinion on tempo runs and what type of tempo work would ya do for the half?

shels4ever

tisnotover wrote: »

Looking back at my log from last yr, I did 1x15mile with the rest all in 11-13mile range. These runs were all done over hills and at a slow pace.

I don't think ya need the 3x15mile runs...and def not the 18mile run. A long run over a route with hills that maybe reflects the course your going running itslef is enough.

The key run would be tempo..maybe two days before the long run. the tempo is what will get your half goal time. I would put more focus into building quality into the tempo once your long runs are in the 11-13 mile range.

What half are you aiming for ? All the best with the training.

The Aim in the National Half marathon in September and then may run another one in December depending on the Xc season.

I see what your saying about the 3 X 15 miles but if fit i'd like to be doing at least 12-15 mile long runs if training for 10ks etc . Will see how the training goes ....

kennyb3

Surely it comes down to 2 things combined

1. risk/reward

2. speed at which you do them (how many miles at HM pace).

For example i reckon you can easily knock out a 15m at a slow pace and not hugely increasing injury risk. But if you try a superhero session with 9 HMP miles in there you may be in trouble. Also going towards 18m and above might be risky also.

From what I can see shels you are far more likely to get injured than the roadrunner, so this is well worth bearing in mind.

I'd let my body decide

Just my 2c.

average_runner

Here is my 2 cent

Right now i am trying to get right for the 10 miler in August, jsut back from injury.

So training plan is like this:

Monday morning 3-4 miles relax pace,
Tuesday evening 5x800m 1 km warm up and down
Thursday 8-10k steady run , will increase distance later
Sat long runs, a bit slower than race pace, starting off at 8 miles hoping to hit 15 miles eventually.

Target is the 10 miler but if that race goes really well I will do Longford half and have a shot at breaking 1:40.

But only back from another injury so we see.

Krusty_Clown

FetchEveryone Newsletter Archive



Just got this in my inbox this morning, and thought it was pretty relevant. This is a graph from the FetchEveryone weekly newsletter (will link to it directly when it's published on their site). Y Axis is the distance of the longest run, X-axis is the time achieved. Sample= 34K+ half marathons.

So based on the records of a wide-range of runners, you can get away with 10-11 mile runs up to about 1:40, but any faster than that and you would need to be upping the distance of the long runs. I think the sample is based on runners doing purely half marathon training programs, rather than running a half marathon during marathon training. If the sample included people on marathon programs, you would probably see a large increase in mileage.

Also peak mileage:


As I said, I will link directly to their newsletter when it is posted. Just thought that these made for interesting reading.

shels4ever

kennyb3 wrote: »

Surely it comes down to 2 things combined

1. risk/reward

2. speed at which you do them (how many miles at HM pace).

For example i reckon you can easily knock out a 15m at a slow pace and not hugely increasing injury risk. But if you try a superhero session with 9 HMP miles in there you may be in trouble. Also going towards 18m and above might be risky also.

From what I can see shels you are far more likely to get injured than the roadrunner, so this is well worth bearing in mind.

I'd let my body decide

Just my 2c.

Yep I'd agree with that... Not going to be doing any super hero sessions

Think i'm going to give the longer runs a bash and see how it goes, as I feel that i've been picking up injurys mostly due to the shorter faster session. Looking back on my log last year ALL my good races came of the back of big miles.. 3k , 5k , 4m pb were all done on the back of really slow long runs.
Even looking at the pace of some runs of 18 mile were at 9:45 pace and then 5k pace was just over the 6:30 pace. 4 mile pb was actually 2 day after a 15 mile run too ...

I think i've done away with my 3 session a week not and its all going to be easy miles apart from one temp session a week. I think that for me really slow easy miles for the next few months will be the key as injuries were picked up in session doing 400m, 1.5k reps etc.

The only miles i'd plan to run at HM pace would be a 7 or 8 mile tempo run and this would only be once, as at the moment i've no idea what my target time will be, but i'd say 1:45/47 mark would be a possible target going on my crap state of fittness at the moment but who know.

But of course i'm going to let the body decide from now on , if i need a rest day i'll take it

shels4ever

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

FetchEveryone Newsletter Archive



Just got this in my inbox this morning, and thought it was pretty relevant. This is a graph from the FetchEveryone weekly newsletter (will link to it directly when it's published on their site). Y Axis is the distance of the longest run, X-axis is the time achieved. Sample= 34K+ half marathons.

So based on the records of a wide-range of runners, you can get away with 10-11 mile runs up to about 1:40, but any faster than that and you would need to be upping the distance of the long runs. I think the sample is based on runners doing purely half marathon training programs, rather than running a half marathon during marathon training. If the sample included people on marathon programs, you would probably see a large increase in mileage.

Also peak mileage:


As I said, I will link directly to their newsletter when it is posted. Just thought that these made for interesting reading.

I'd like to read the full article if you have it, but if people get better half marathon results doing marathon plans rather then HM plans does that mean that HM plans are all wrong
If larger miles give better results should most HM plans not have greater mileage? or you should only do extra miles once you can run X pace...

RayCun

My read on that is that the very fastest half-marathon runners are doing long runs of over 15 miles in training - but they are doing this as part of peak mileage weeks of over 60 mpw.

But even runners in the 1.2x range have longest runs in the 12/13 range, and that's on 50/60 mpw. Your training plan seems to be way off the scale, your long runs aren't matching either your planned race time or your total weekly mileage.

(this is just my read of the data, I'm very very far from being an expert)

shels4ever

RayCun wrote: »

My read on that is that the very fastest half-marathon runners are doing long runs of over 15 miles in training - but they are doing this as part of peak mileage weeks of over 60 mpw.

But even runners in the 1.2x range have longest runs in the 12/13 range, and that's on 50/60 mpw. Your training plan seems to be way off the scale, your long runs aren't matching either your planned race time or your total weekly mileage.

(this is just my read of the data, I'm very very far from being an expert)

Yep I know what your saying I should be able to run 1:45 with a lot less miles, maybe I could at the moment i'd expect to be able to run a pb without maybe 2 more weeks running, pb is jsut under 2 horus.

Yep true, but i've based my idea on past performance from my training plan from last year.

At the moment mileage is @ a shade under 40 mpw an thats with a 10 m long run , I'd max out at 47/48 miles with a 16/18 mile long runs. Which doesnt seem to out of scale? if you think about some marathon plans would have a max of 40 mpw and this would have long runs of 18 miles.

I've just been reading a few plans that max the long run at 11 miles but these are doing fairly quick and would seem to be very close to LT runs over the distance. My thinking on the long runs would be more on the lines of http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm in increasing fat burning and done at more then 1 min slower then planned race pace.

The thinking is the benifits of a marathon long run will translate into the half marathon.

RayCun

You seem to be doing a marathon training plan, basically. And that will definitely improve your half-marathon pb, but it's not a very efficient way of doing it. You're just picking up on the overall benefits of running more.

As you say, some marathon plans would max out at about 40 mpw with 18 mile long runs (probably 20, I think). That's a long run about 80% of race distance. You're planning to do long runs of 120-150% of race distance. You're training your body to be good at running for 3 hours at a time, when you're planning to race for less than 2 hours.

Assuming a better target for you is around 1.30, look at the people doing 1.30 on the charts Krusty posted. Their max mileage is about what you plan, 45-50 miles. But their longest runs are race distance, 13.1 miles. It's only the real elite, sub 1.20 runners who are running longer runs, and they're running much further than you plan to, over 60mpw. (They don't have much choice but to have a couple of really long runs with that kind of weekly mileage)

If you look at the Higdon Advanced half-marathon schedule (since it's on the web), he says about long runs

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The schedule suggests a slight increase in time as you get closer to race date: from 90 minutes to 1:45 to two hours.... And, yes, you may actually find yourself running further than 13.1 miles when you run two hours[/FONT]

(usual disclaimer - I'm just a beginner at all this)

Krusty_Clown

shels4ever wrote: »

I'd like to read the full article if you have it, but if people get better half marathon results doing marathon plans rather then HM plans does that mean that HM plans are all wrong
If larger miles give better results should most HM plans not have greater mileage? or you should only do extra miles once you can run X pace...

It's not really an article, more a study of the data available in the Fetcheveryone database (think of it like an analysis of the training logs on this forum.

Perhaps marathon training plans are better than half-marathon plans for achieving a HM PB. For most people, a HM is a stepping stone between two distances. For the top of the field, the HM distance tends to be a mid-season tune-up race. Isn't that why so many of them happen in late summer / early autumn, in the run up to a runner's real goal? Is it a coincidence that the national half marathon is 6 weeks before Dublin? (I know it was held later in the year last year, but maybe that impacted finish times. Could be an interesting comparison).

shels4ever

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's not really an article, more a study of the data available in the Fetcheveryone database (think of it like an analysis of the training logs on this forum.

Perhaps marathon training plans are better than half-marathon plans for achieving a HM PB. For most people, a HM is a stepping stone between two distances. For the top of the field, the HM distance tends to be a mid-season tune-up race. Isn't that why so many of them happen in late summer / early autumn, in the run up to a runner's real goal? Is it a coincidence that the national half marathon is 6 weeks before Dublin? (I know it was held later in the year last year, but maybe that impacted finish times. Could be an interesting comparison).

Yep thats what I'm thinking the HM training plans are more of a get ready to run the main event type of thing. It does seem that the plans out there are mostly to get around a half marathon as apposed to racing one.

But I do think its a standalone event in its own right

Marathons arent everything ...

*says that and runs way from krusty

RayCun

shels4ever wrote: »

Marathons arent everything ...

It looks like you really want to run a marathon, and are going to go out and train for it, but you haven't admitted it to yourself yet

shels4ever

RayCun wrote: »

It looks like you really want to run a marathon, and are going to go out and train for it, but you haven't admitted it to yourself yet

I will run a marathon again but not this year,

but maybe i'll wake up on 25th October and find myself amoung a crowd of 12, 000 people in the city center

Woddle

Hi Shels I've just had a look at Pfitz/Douglas schedule for 1/2s in Road racing for serious runners and they seem to have a max lsr of 15 miles for mileage of <50 and a max 17 mile lsr for >50 but the latter schedule does seem on par with what you want to do, 1x17, 2x16 and 3x15 but this mileage peaks at 100 a week.

shels4ever

Woddle wrote: »

Hi Shels I've just had a look at Pfitz/Douglas schedule for 1/2s in Road racing for serious runners and they seem to have a max lsr of 15 miles for mileage of <50 and a max 17 mile lsr for >50 but the latter schedule does seem on par with what you want to do, 1x17, 2x16 and 3x15 but this mileage peaks at 100 a week.

Ok the 15 miles sounds about right , so would mean jsut dropping the 18 from the schedule.
Either that or add an extra 50 miles a week to my plan...

Krusty_Clown

shels4ever wrote: »

Marathons arent everything ...

Personally, I find half marathons far more challenging than marathons. Based on my own particular physiology, I think I'm far more likely to burn out on a half marathon than on a full marathon (and have done so once before), because of the greater work-rate and distance. I think it's because half marathon pace is so much closer to LT, whereas marathon pace is comfortably easier than LT pace.

As long as you have your endurance sorted, and your pacing strategy correct, marathon is a safer option than a half.

shels4ever

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Personally, I find half marathons far more challenging than marathons. Based on my own particular physiology, I think I'm far more likely to burn out on a half marathon than on a full marathon (and have done so once before), because of the greater work-rate and distance. I think it's because half marathon pace is so much closer to LT, whereas marathon pace is comfortably easier than LT pace.

As long as you have your endurance sorted, and your pacing strategy correct, marathon is a safer option than a half.

Yep I'd agree, I think i'm a better racer then a pacer so find it hard to run marathons myself. I think a half mara is something that can really be raced (if fit).

ecoli

shels4ever wrote: »

Yep I'd agree, I think i'm a better racer then a pacer so find it hard to run marathons myself. I think a half mara is something that can really be raced (if fit).

Agree with this. In my half though i kept an eye on the clock i think what got me around was the fact that i ended up with a personal battle with one particular guy for 15k which helped me negative split each 5k for the first three. From here on in it was just about holding on for the good time

BeepBeep67

Hey Shels I think you have come to your conclusion already, the only bit I would add is that it would be more beneficial to take the 3 miles from from 18M run and add that to a mid week endurance run - so you would have 2 solid endurance days in the plan 15 and 10.

BeepBeep67

Runner's World sub 1:40 goes to 15M with a 9M mid week.
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-garmin-ready-half-marathon-schedule-sub-140/3274.html

shels4ever

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Hey Shels I think you have come to your conclusion already, the only bit I would add is that it would be more beneficial to take the 3 miles from from 18M run and add that to a mid week endurance run - so you would have 2 solid endurance days in the plan 15 and 10.

Great thanks, The longer mid week runs is something that I was mibsisng before,

TheRoadRunner

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Hey Shels I think you have come to your conclusion already, the only bit I would add is that it would be more beneficial to take the 3 miles from from 18M run and add that to a mid week endurance run - so you would have 2 solid endurance days in the plan 15 and 10.

Interesting reading different peoples approaches. BB67 suggestion above is a good one. I'm with other peoples opinions regarding half marathons. I personally find them harder to run than a marathon. The reason being though is that I actually race half marathons, in the later stages (from 10-13 miles) I'm definitely fighting lactic etc. I've never actually raced a marathon though. I also feel like I'm running within a comfort zone, well until mile 24 or something when I just get really tired.

Anyway shels, having talked to you about this in the past I personally think 14-16 miles would be perfect for you.

shels4ever

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Interesting reading different peoples approaches. BB67 suggestion above is a good one. I'm with other peoples opinions regarding half marathons. I personally find them harder to run than a marathon. The reason being though is that I actually race half marathons, in the later stages (from 10-13 miles) I'm definitely fighting lactic etc. I've never actually raced a marathon though. I also feel like I'm running within a comfort zone, well until mile 24 or something when I just get really tired.

Anyway shels, having talked to you about this in the past I personally think 14-16 miles would be perfect for you.

Yep seems to be the way to go. Will keep ticking over and keep it to around 16.