Is it illegal to be racist?

Fo Real

Is it actually illegal to be racist? Of course it would be illegal to go around smashing black people's faces in with a brick, that is assault, but surely the law cannot prosecute you for disliking blacks.

I think it is hilarious that countires like Austria make Holocaust® denial illegal. How long before the thought police of George Orwell's 1984 become a reality? People are being locked up for asking questions and conducting independent investigatons. You can take away a man's freedom but you cannot force him to change his opinions.

So my question is: is racism (the belief that one race is superior to others) illegal in Ireland. I'm not talking about acting on these beliefs. I'm merely asking about having the beliefs themselves.

Cookie_Monster

If it is I'm fooked

mathie

Racist!

bonerm

Unless we have thought police hiding in the shadows how can merely thinking something be illegal? Unless you voice or act on that belief , but then you get into the territory that you already accept as being illegal

Are you referring to spreading racist thought/beliefs perhaps?

FearDark

Im not racist but...

Gnomercy

Fo Real wrote: »

So my question is: is racism (the belief that one race is superior to others) illegal in Ireland. I'm not talking about acting on these beliefs. I'm merely asking about having the beliefs themselves.

Only if they can see what you're thinking!!!

Max Power1

I dont think that its in the statute books in black and white that racism is illegal.

(lol)

minidazzler

No, it's not, and as long as you don't incite hatred you can spread all the racist malarky you want.

Though, just because it's not illegal doesn't make you less of a dick for being racist.

Dunjohn

There's no such thing as an illegal belief. Not even in Austria. You can deny the Holocaust all you want as long as you stay quiet about it.

So, yeah, you can be racist in Ireland as long as you don't act on it. You can't advertise your hotel as whites-only, you can't harass non-whites verbally or physically, you can't explicitly say you'll employ only whites in your failing garage business, but you can avoid non-whites as much as possible if you really feel the need.

cynder

well, if were to keep it to yourself and not talk about it know one would know.

if you were to talk about it it could be seen as inciting racial hatred:

In Ireland, the right to free speech is guaranteed under the Constitution (Article 40.6.1.i). However, the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, proscribes words or behaviours which are "threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred" against "a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation."[14]

SEPT 23 1989

Nein

chin_grin

Are you Fo Real?




Had to.

source

Well there is the incitement to hatred act, 1989 which covers the wide scale broadcast of inflamatory material, also Section 6 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 covers a person using threatening, ABUSIVE, and INSULTING words or behaviour.

So Racism would fall under these, obviously acting on it and not just thinking it. But then again a racist isn't going to keep their ideas to themselves.

Cookie_Monster

We're all the same race anyway...

nationalist is probably a more apt term in a lot of cases. -> Feckin Frenchies

rockmongrel

You link between Austria's Nazi banning and 1984 is moronic at best. It's such a complex issue and had nothing to do with "thought policing". It's about a country being ashamed of a certain part of it's history and trying to show that they're not like that any more. I think it's ridiculous and unnecessary of course, but then again I think history should be left in the past and all this national pride malarkey is holding us back.

ANYWAY.

No it's not illegal, nor should it be. I also don't think hate speech and all that should be illegal. Absolute freedom of speech or none at all, it doesn't work any other way.

Donkey Oaty

rockmongrel wrote: »

No it's not illegal, nor should it be. I also don't think hate speech and all that should be illegal. Absolute freedom of speech or none at all, it doesn't work any other way.

You would scrap the laws on incitement, I take it - but would you also remove legislation for libel? And what about threatening and abusive behaviour?

Fo Real

minidazzler wrote: »

No, it's not, and as long as you don't incite hatred you can spread all the racist malarky you want.

Though, just because it's not illegal doesn't make you less of a dick for being racist.

Ah ok, so once I don't advocate violence against other races, I'm doing nothing wrong. I have reasons for holding my beliefs which I won't discuss here as I don't want to drag the thread off topic.

Also please refrain from throwing around childish insults. I don't ridicule you for your beliefs. I'm a man of science and logic but I don't go around insulting Christians and Muslims for being religious.

prinz

Fo Real wrote: »

I'm a man of science and logic...

Eugenicist?

Locust

Yes as mentioned its an offence
under Public Order Section 6 of the 1994 Act.
A person engaging in 'abusive or insulting words or behaviour'



Rockmongrel - You dont think hate speech and all that should be illegal?? Jeezz

AudreyHepburn

rockmongrel wrote: »

No it's not illegal, nor should it be. I also don't think hate speech and all that should be illegal. Absolute freedom of speech or none at all, it doesn't work any other way.

Free speech is one thing and I agree it's important to have it.

But to attack some-one verbally or otherwise simply because of where they come from or their heritage is in my opinion wrong and there should be legal redress.

Stinicker

I think freedom comes to mind, there is nothing wrong with people being racist it is actually quite natural and normal healthy thing from a psychological point of view. Now the idiots who are preaching the joys of political correctness and the garbage known as Multiculturalism, I fear Darwinisn comes to mind as they clearly want to see the end of themselves, their race, culture, freedom and way of life.

pickarooney

It depends what you mean by hate speech. I certainly think you should be allowed to say "I hate such-and-such". Saying "let's all kill such-and-such" to a gathering of people from a position of power would be a bit of a no-no though.

AnonoBoy

Fo Real wrote: »

I'm a man of science and logic....

....but also a racist?

While you may claim to be a man of science and logic, do you have any real knowledge of either? Doesn't seem like it to me because I've yet to hear a sound scientific and logical reason why one race is superior to others.

But no - being racist is not illegal in Ireland. In fact I don't think it's illegal in any country. However inciting hatred is illegal.

I don't know if any country in the world offers complete and utter freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is curtailed when it starts impacting on the freedoms of others - slandering, incitement to hatred, perjury etc.

cynder

I for one think that things are way too PC, it's madness gone over board. I dont have any issues with anyone (except xxxxxxxxx) but i think when your country opens its doors to others that you shouldnt have to change the way you live to suit them. ( in certain areas in the uk they have banned xmas decorations)

its a case of think what you like but don't open your mouth and talk about it. I do think that some cultures and people from a certain country are undesirable. I might add that i am very good friends with some indian/Pakistani and bangladeshi people.

source

Section 6 Public order Act requires intent to cause a public order incident or being reckless as to whether one occurs, when engaging abusive or insulting words or behaviour.

What this means, is that someone walking down a street by themselves and says "I hate such and such" no chance for a public order incident, so no offence committed. If same person walks past a group of people from a different race and comments that they hate members of that race, then an offence has been committed, because the group could react and thereby cause a public order incident to occur.

chopperbyrne

Dunjohn wrote: »

So, yeah, you can be racist in Ireland as long as you don't act on it. You can't advertise your hotel as whites-only, you can't harass non-whites verbally or physically, you can't explicitly say you'll employ only whites in your failing garage business, but you can avoid non-whites as much as possible if you really feel the need.

So it's only racism if it's directed against non-white people now?

actuallylike

FearDark wrote: »

Im not racist but...

Yes? And...?
Oh, is that all you had to say?
Very clever of you offering nothing to the discussion.

(Sorry, but it's the most annoying form of argument that whole 'I'm not Racist but...' line. Any thread with anything to do with race (or sometimes nothing at all to do with race), somebody always spouts the above post out thinking they're witty or profound.)

Morlar

The definition of 'incitement to hatred' is unclear, expressing a negative or derogatory view on a race could potentially be interpreted as inciting hatred. What about inciting disgust or inciting fear ?

As regards the holocaust denial laws of europe they vary from country to country - in some places it comes down to the phrase 'to belittle jewish suffering'. So that is open to extreme interpretation. There are also moves to have those laws extended across the rest of the holdout countries of europe btw.

up for anything

Fo Real wrote: »

Is it actually illegal to be racist? Of course it would be illegal to go around smashing black people's faces in with a brick, that is assault, but surely the law cannot prosecute you for disliking blacks

Racism = disliking blacks.

For shame, If you're going to be racist, at least be a multiracial racist. You're leaving out all sorts of good ones. :mad:

ejmaztec

I'm thinking But.................

Hazys

It should be illegal to be a retard, that would also cover racists.

AnonoBoy

This thread actually should be renamed:

I am a racist but....

chopperbyrne

Hazys wrote: »

It should be illegal to be a retard, that would also cover racists.

What about retarded people?

Culled at birth?

Trashbat

Fo Real wrote: »

Ah ok, so once I don't advocate violence against other races,

Insightment of Racial Hatred does is not limited to advocating violence. I would argue that anyone publicly voicing an opinion that is racist could be seen to be insighting hatred.

Fo Real wrote: »

I'm doing nothing wrong. I have reasons for holding my beliefs which I won't discuss here as I don't want to drag the thread off topic.

Actually, I think its commonly accepted in enlightened society that racism and being a racist is wrong. I presume your reasons for holding such beliefs are something along the lines of "well i met a black man once and he did something bad......".

If you feel you have a real reason to discrimitate and judge people purely on racial grounds without any other assessment, i'd be delighted to hear it (i could use a good laugh)

Fo Real wrote: »

I'm a man of science and logic but I don't go around insulting Christians and Muslims for being religious.

So is it the Jews you don't like?

minidazzler

Fo Real wrote: »

Ah ok, so once I don't advocate violence against other races, I'm doing nothing wrong. I have reasons for holding my beliefs which I won't discuss here as I don't want to drag the thread off topic.

Also please refrain from throwing around childish insults. I don't ridicule you for your beliefs. I'm a man of science and logic but I don't go around insulting Christians and Muslims for being religious.

You can choose to ridicule my beliefs all you want, I am not a bigoted person, I am sure you could find fault with some of my beliefs, but I don't hate a whole group of people based on anything, I take people as they are.

Also, you aren't allowed to slander or slur, advocating violence is just one small part of hatred.

greener greene

Feckin' Greeks!!! :pac:

Morlar

Trashbat wrote: »

Insightment of Racial Hatred does is not limited to advocating violence. I would argue that anyone publicly voicing an opinion that is racist could be seen to be insighting hatred.to hear it (i could use a good laugh)

That is the point I just made - someone somewhere could argue that expression of a negative or derogatory opinion about another race is in itself an incitement to hatred.

What if it is a fact that is being expressed in a negative manner ? Such as the statistics around black on white rape in south africa, rape of infants in africa, or black crime statistics ? The expression of those statistics also has the potential to be percieved as to incite hatred/fear/disgust etc - should we outlaw that too ?

Trashbat

grindelwald wrote: »

( in certain areas in the uk they have banned xmas decorations)

Please provide evidence.

When you say "areas in the UK" do you mean actual geographical areas like local authorities, that have banned Xmas decorations, or do you mean a one off incident where a school headteacher went a little too far with the PC thing and the Daily Mail over exaggerated the whole thing?

By the way, I went to an educate together school in Ireland in 1995 and they didn't put up christmas decorations so as not to offend a certain religion. Thats not PC gone mad, its just badly handling a multi-cultural environment, and its by no means a new phenomena.

Dermo

Max Power1 wrote: »

I dont think that its in the statute books in black and white that racism is illegal.

(lol)

nothing is in black and white in the statute books. the ink is only black which, now that you mention it, is a little racist

Fo Real

In Ocotber of 2007, Switzerland elected the Swiss People's Party, labelled a racist party by the liberal media over here, into government. Now Switzerland does not appear a "racist" society. My theory is that the silent majority hold similar beliefs to mine that one race is superior to all others but are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled criminals. The truth only comes out at election time where voting is anonymous.

I also believe that most users of boards.ie agree with me but, again, are afraid to speak up. It's the loud-mouth liberal media who control what is and is not acceptable to think.

Bottle_of_Smoke

There's nothing wrong with racism in itself. Certain ethnicities are more prone to certain illnesses. Imagine a doctor said ' i'm not going to test for rickets just because he's asian, that's racist!'

Its when you start applying it to attributes with no basis in fact it becomes a problem

cynder

minidazzler wrote: »

, but I don't hate a whole group of people based on anything, I take people as they are.

.

I don't exactly hate one group i would begrudging tolerate them, inside wishing they were somewhere else instead. I find their whole culture to be very dishonest and wish the stole in their county and from their people instead of mine. ( i know you cant paint everyone with the same brush so there might be one out there that is decent)

Hazys

Morlar wrote: »

That is the point I just made - someone somewhere could argue that expression of a negative or derogatory opinion about another race is in itself an incitement to hatred.

What if it is a fact that is being expressed in a negative manner ? Such as the statistics around black on white rape in south africa, rape of infants in africa, or black crime statistics ? The expression of those statistics also has the potential to be percieved as to incite hatred/fear/disgust etc - should we outlaw that too ?

No obviously not but using statistics like 1 in 4 men in South Africa have raped before as a statistic to describe all black men in the world is completely racist.

Rape is a social problem in the country of South Africa, it has little to do with the fact the population is black. Have 1 in 4 black men on the streets of NYC/Dublin/Lagos raped before...i seriously doubt it.

Donkey Oaty

Trashbat wrote: »

By the way, I went to an educate together school in Ireland in 1995 and they didn't put up christmas decorations so as not to offend a certain religion. Thats not PC gone mad, its just badly handling a multi-cultural environment, and its by no means a new phenomena.

Trashbat's analysis applies to pretty much all of these stories. Non-Christians couldn't care less if there are decorations or not.

The Davestator

rockmongrel wrote: »

You link between Austria's Nazi banning and 1984 is moronic at best. It's such a complex issue and had nothing to do with "thought policing". It's about a country being ashamed of a certain part of it's history and trying to show that they're not like that any more. I think it's ridiculous and unnecessary of course, but then again I think history should be left in the past and all this national pride malarkey is holding us back.

ANYWAY.

No it's not illegal, nor should it be. I also don't think hate speech and all that should be illegal. Absolute freedom of speech or none at all, it doesn't work any other way.

Totally agree. What about the recent blasphemy laws? They are a serious step back to the 1940's.

cynder

"Under existing legislation we have seen the development of a risk-averse culture with outcomes as ridiculous as reports of a local authority instructing tenants to take down Christmas lights in case they might offend Muslim neighbours, or of authorities removing the word Christmas out of cultural sensitivity to everyone except Christians," the conference warned.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6591625/Equality-Bill-could-lead-councils-to-clamp-down-on-Christmas-decorations.html


The Red Cross has banned Christmas nativity decorations from its UK charity shops in case they offend customers of other faiths.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2597481.stm


Tinsel Taliban strikes as Court Service ban staff from decorations to avoid offence

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236989/Tinsel-Taliban-strikes-Court-Service-ban-staff-decorations-avoid-offence.html#ixzz0r7isnFuS

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/3810153.Council_set_to_axe_Christmas/

Hazys

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with racism in itself. Certain ethnicities are more prone to certain illnesses. Imagine a doctor said ' i'm not going to test for rickets just because he's asian, that's racist!'

Its when you start applying it to attributes with no basis in fact it becomes a problem

Thats not racism, tho.

Racism is a prejudice against another race.

Pointing out white people are more likly to get skin cancer than black people is a fact, not a prejudice.

Donkey Oaty

Fo Real wrote: »

My theory is that the silent majority hold similar beliefs to mine that one race is superior to all others but are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled criminals.

I think you are wrong and I will not be contributing to this thread again.

Goodbye.

squod

Probably ''hatred'' is the underlying word we're missing here. Is it illegal to hate someone? Probably yes.

However if you avoid contact with people of different race then I hardly think that racist fits the description of the law mentioned above. OP don't waste time on hate.

Morlar

Hazys wrote: »

No obviously not but using statistics like 1 in 4 men in South Africa have raped before as a statistic to describe all black men in the world is completely racist.

Rape is a social problem in the country of South Africa, it has little to do with the fact the population is black.

I didn't ask for your spin on that to be honest. Nor did I mention any specific statistics.

I asked a question about the expression of facts/statistics that have at least the equal potential to be percieved as 'to incite hatred' as the expression of opinions (that are also percieved as being 'to incite hatred).

My overall point would be this is a very dangerous area to try and legislate or to jump on any bandwagons no matter how well intentioned. Particularly with regard to so-called holocaust denial legislation.

Hazys

Fo Real wrote: »

In Ocotber of 2007, Switzerland elected the Swiss People's Party, labelled a racist party by the liberal media over here, into government. Now Switzerland does not appear a "racist" society. My theory is that the silent majority hold similar beliefs to mine that one race is superior to all others but are afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled criminals. The truth only comes out at election time where voting is anonymous.

I also believe that most users of boards.ie agree with me but, again, are afraid to speak up. It's the loud-mouth liberal media who control what is and is not acceptable to think.

How true that is...remind me again how many seats did the BNP win in England in the recent election?