Difference in attitudes between IE and NIR

Hungerford

I just thought that it might be worth having a trend on the different approaches to customer service between IE and their Northern counterparts, NIR.

It's been prompted by a combination of my own travelling experiences and some comments on IRN about NIR's response to a major concert in Bangor earlier this month.

Basically, after the concert finished at 23:30, around 9,000 people headed to Bangor train station, where NIR ran between 12 and 15 specials - some of which appear to have been unscheduled - until 01.20, by which point all the passengers had been accommodated. Apparently, they had a queue of railcars waiting to get into the station at some points.

These specials ran not just to Belfast but throughout the network to Portadown, Coleraine and Carrickfergus.

Can anyone imagine IE engaging in such an operation? Why is customer service from IE so inferior to that provided by NIR, which is pretty cashstrapped and underresourced?

Cookie_Monster

Hungerford wrote: »

Can anyone imagine IE engaging in such an operation?

NO

Sure look what happens when a match ends in Lansdowne, the entire DART network is paused while a train sits of the tracks at the platform for half an hour.

Not only do they do their best not to accomodate match leavers, the put out every other commuter too.

The rebuild of the stadium was the perfect chance to put in a 3rd line under the stands to store stock for such occasions without disrupting normal schedules, or indeed have a dedicated station under the stands which I have argued should have been done many times.

Do Luas provide anything similar at the point when events finish?

Even the GAA specials are becoming rarer these days aren't they and do they run through the Phoenix Park tunnel anymore?

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Do Luas provide anything similar at the point when events finish

Luas finishes at 2430 and I imagine all events are finished by then. Luas do put on stewards at the platforms.

and do they run through the Phoenix Park tunnel anymore?

I've not heard of any recently

Even the GAA specials are becoming rarer these days aren't they?

I'm not sure. Cork-Kerry in Croke Park last year had at least 10 trains.

DWCommuter

Hungerford wrote: »

I just thought that it might be worth having a trend on the different approaches to customer service between IE and their Northern counterparts, NIR.

It's been prompted by a combination of my own travelling experiences and some comments on IRN about NIR's response to a major concert in Bangor earlier this month.

Basically, after the concert finished at 23:30, around 9,000 people headed to Bangor train station, where NIR ran between 12 and 15 specials - some of which appear to have been unscheduled - until 01.20, by which point all the passengers had been accommodated. Apparently, they had a queue of railcars waiting to get into the station at some points.

These specials ran not just to Belfast but throughout the network to Portadown, Coleraine and Carrickfergus.

Can anyone imagine IE engaging in such an operation? Why is customer service from IE so inferior to that provided by NIR, which is pretty cashstrapped and underresourced?

Obviously the most famous example for CIE was the Papal visit in 1979, when they gleefully withdrew scheduled services across the network in order to provide specials for the Phoenix Park, Knock, Galway and Limerick. They boasted about it for years. They even reopened a station for the event and then closed it down again. Having read the detailed account of the operation, I found it a bit distastefull.

Traditionally CIE/IE ran specials because their scheduled services were so crap they couldn't cope. But it appears that their lean and mean clockface approach is designed to provide capacity throughout any event, serving all kinds of customers. In fairness its a fairly decent approach and in line with hows things are done on better railways. However outside of the railway staff friendly clockface timetable, you are invariably ****ed. The trimmed down railway suits the heads in HQ. Thats all they care about.

DWCommuter

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NO

Sure look what happens when a match ends in Lansdowne, the entire DART network is paused while a train sits of the tracks at the platform for half an hour.

Not only do they do their best not to accomodate match leavers, the put out every other commuter too.

The rebuild of the stadium was the perfect chance to put in a 3rd line under the stands to store stock for such occasions without disrupting normal schedules, or indeed have a dedicated station under the stands which I have argued should have been done many times.

Do Luas provide anything similar at the point when events finish and do they run through the Phoenix Park tunnel anymore?

Even the GAA specials are becoming rarer these days aren't they?

As Ive alluded to above, the more frequent services do provide some respite in terms of capacity. This probably means that less dedicated specials are provided direct to Connolly via the PPT at weekends. Although (annoyingly) IE did run specials into Connolly via the PPT on Friday evenings with no problems. As usual they do things when it suits them and provide mantra ridden excuses when it doesn't.

The Lansdowne road issue should really have been solved at design and planning permission stage. That level crossing should have been removed so DARTs could keep moving as they filled. Basic stuff in a country that puts public transport access to the fore.

The luas at the point seems to work fine. Its high frequency anyway and Veolia do provide stewards for crowd control. Ive had no problem with it.

corktina

Victor wrote: »

Luas finishes at 2430 and I imagine all events are finished by then. Luas do put on stewards at the platforms.

I've not heard of any recently

I'm not sure. Cork-Kerry in Croke Park last year had at least 10 trains.

24.30??? Is that what I call 00.30 perchance?:rolleyes:

Victor

Saying 2430 demonstrates that it is into the next day, not like the confusing fashion that Dublin Bus use of saying Nitelink buses depart at 00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00 on Friday to Saturday, when they actually depart at 24:00, 25:00, 26:00, 27:00 + 28:00 Friday and Saturday, i.e. Saturday and Sunday.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NO

Sure look what happens when a match ends in Lansdowne, the entire DART network is paused while a train sits of the tracks at the platform for half an hour.

Not only do they do their best not to accomodate match leavers, the put out every other commuter too.

The rebuild of the stadium was the perfect chance to put in a 3rd line under the stands to store stock for such occasions without disrupting normal schedules, or indeed have a dedicated station under the stands which I have argued should have been done many times.

Do Luas provide anything similar at the point when events finish and do they run through the Phoenix Park tunnel anymore?

Even the GAA specials are becoming rarer these days aren't they?

Just to clear up a few points here:

The DART services were held at Lansdowne Road on the advice of an Garda Siochana, who viewed lowering the barriers with so many people leaving the ground simultaneously as dangerous (and rightly so) from a crowd control perspective. The new underpass should alleviate that issue going forward.

I would very much doubt that the IRFU would be too prepared to give up any of their groundspace to sidings for the railway company - the stadium footprint is cramped enough as it is!!

There are still plenty of GAA specials operating, but those going through the Phoenix Park tunnel are dependant upon the availability of drivers with the necessary route knowledge - if I recall correctly some Waterford line specials operated to Connolly last year.

Incidentally this is not something peculiar to Dublin. Earlier this year there was a Six Nations game played in Millenium Stadium in Cardiff on a Friday night at 8pm. Arriva Trains Wales made it abundantly clear that no extra late trains would operate, but they made their return tickets valid for travel the following day.

foggy_lad

There are still plenty of GAA specials operating, but those going through the Phoenix Park tunnel are dependant upon the availability of drivers with the necessary route knowledge - if I recall correctly some Waterford line specials operated to Connolly last year.

is that like the knowledge about how viaducts can erode underwater? i would have thought that train drivers could follow the rails or is there a possibility they might take a wrong turn? seems like a real union statement!

Victor

No, its a safety issue. Remember you need to apply the brakes on a train 1-2km before the point where you want to stop. You can't see that spot fromthe point where you need to apply the brakes.

BrianD

At a capacity of 40,000 people the Ward Park was one of the largest if not the largest concerts held in the North. It was probably in the T&Cs that the promoter had to provide a public transport to get people out of Bangor. Particlarly if the concert was to run that late.

Comparing it to Lansdowne is not the same. Bangor is at the end of the line so there would be sidings. Plus the location is somewhat remote when compared with an almost city centre location like Lansdowne.

foggy_lad

i dont know much about driving trains but i would have thought there are mile and quarter mile markers along all railway lines and if a driver was anyway competant (s)he would be able to safely negotiate any section of track using notes and a detailed map of the particular section, also it is a tunnel so there are no sidings or junctions and any junctions points etc going into connolly would be negotiated at a certain speed anyway due to the pathetic condition of track in this area.

back on topic it would not take much for irish rail to provide a few trains to cork and galway sligo etc after large concerts, it would only take some will to make something of the company!

corktina

Victor wrote: »

Saying 2430 demonstrates that it is into the next day, not like the confusing fashion that Dublin Bus use of saying Nitelink buses depart at 00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00 on Friday to Saturday, when they actually depart at 24:00, 25:00, 26:00, 27:00 + 28:00 Friday and Saturday, i.e. Saturday and Sunday.

oh thats not confusing at all!

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

i dont know much about driving trains but i would have thought there are mile and quarter mile markers along all railway lines and if a driver was anyway competant (s)he would be able to safely negotiate any section of track using notes and a detailed map of the particular section, also it is a tunnel so there are no sidings or junctions and any junctions points etc going into connolly would be negotiated at a certain speed anyway due to the pathetic condition of track in this area.

back on topic it would not take much for irish rail to provide a few trains to cork and galway sligo etc after large concerts, it would only take some will to make something of the company!

Driving a train, despite what you woudl seem to think, is a highly skilled job. They need to be able, for example, to know where every braking point is to come to a stop. This might be fine in daylight, but try doing it in the dark. As Victor says, it can take up to 2km to stop a train and drivers have to know where to start reducing speed to arrive at a stop at a signal that is not even visible at that point.

Drivers have to know every feature of each route that they drive before they are passed out to drive a train unassisted on it. They need to know the location of every braking point, level crossing, accomodation crossing, etc., along with the topography of the gradients, knowing where to accelerate or decelerate. To suggest that it could be done by notes is ridiculous.

As Victor says it is governed by safety regulations.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Just to clear up a few points here:

The DART services were held at Lansdowne Road on the advice of an Garda Siochana, who viewed lowering the barriers with so many people leaving the ground simultaneously as dangerous (and rightly so) from a crowd control perspective. The new underpass should alleviate that issue going forward.

It has nothing to do with that, for the south bound DART anyway. I left the last match I was at 20 mins early as it was ****e. DART sitting at southbound platform until about 5-10 mins after final whistle, it sits there until full and then leaves, meaning at least 2 scheduled DARTs behind it are delayed.

KC61 wrote: »

I would very much doubt that the IRFU would be too prepared to give up any of their groundspace to sidings for the railway company - the stadium footprint is cramped enough as it is!!

Done properly it would have easily fitted in the mainly dead space under the stand to the immediate east or west of the current line under the stand.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It has nothing to do with that, for the south bound DART anyway. I left the last match I was at 20 mins early as it was ****e. DART sitting at southbound platform until about 5-10 mins after final whistle, it sits there until full and then leaves, meaning at least 2 scheduled DARTs behind it are delayed.

The two DARTs behind would have to go across the level crossing to get to the station.

BenShermin

foggy_lad wrote: »

back on topic it would not take much for irish rail to provide a few trains to cork and galway sligo etc after large concerts, it would only take some will to make something of the company!

Why would they do that when the N4, N7, N8 etc. can cater for concert goers? Sure IÉ need the railcars/drivers for hourly trains during busier periods like 0900 to 1300 on weekday mornings:rolleyes:.

The company is patethic and as long as it's recieving taxpayers subsidies it will never give a damn about opening up innovative revenue channels. The company's only knowledge of revenue is in their new burely "revenue protection officers" and clinical barriers on intercity concourses.

KenHy

Victor wrote: »

Saying 2430 demonstrates that it is into the next day, not like the confusing fashion that Dublin Bus use of saying Nitelink buses depart at 00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00 on Friday to Saturday, when they actually depart at 24:00, 25:00, 26:00, 27:00 + 28:00 Friday and Saturday, i.e. Saturday and Sunday.

???

How is using the actual time of departure more confusing than inventing a completely new system of time keeping? If I look at my watch at 4am it says 04:00, not 28:00

Cookie_Monster

KenHy wrote: »

???

How is using the actual time of departure more confusing than inventing a completely new system of time keeping? If I look at my watch at 4am it says 04:00, not 28:00

00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00 on Friday to most people would be Friday morning. To DB it is Saturday morning

Tarabuses

Victor wrote: »

Saying 2430 demonstrates that it is into the next day, not like the confusing fashion that Dublin Bus use of saying Nitelink buses depart at 00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00 on Friday to Saturday, when they actually depart at 24:00, 25:00, 26:00, 27:00 + 28:00 Friday and Saturday, i.e. Saturday and Sunday.

There are only 24 hours in a day so 2430 is impossible.

MJohnston

Crikey, this is the only example I've ever seen of people comparing Translink/NIR to anyone else in the world positively. They're an awful company, never once had a train on time with them in the many years I used them.

xper

Cookie_Monster wrote:

The rebuild of the stadium was the perfect chance to put in a 3rd line under the stands to store stock for such occasions without disrupting normal schedules, or indeed have a dedicated station under the stands which I have argued should have been done many times.

DWCommuter wrote:

The Lansdowne road issue should really have been solved at design and planning permission stage. That level crossing should have been removed so DARTs could keep moving as they filled. Basic stuff in a country that puts public transport access to the fore.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

...Done properly it would have easily fitted in the mainly dead space under the stand to the immediate east or west of the current line under the stand.

It doesn't sound like you guys have seen the plans (downloadable from online planning system) of what exactly has been built under the West Stand and podium at the new stadium.
First off, there is a pedestrian underpass so that the level crossing can remain closed throughout stadium events allowing trains to operate with impunity. I have read elsewhere (unverifiable, I grant you) that building a full traffic underpass, thus eliminating the level crossing permanently, was examined but rejected on grounds of cost, space required and impact on train operations during construction.
As for putting sidings under the stand/podium, there is a huge number of facilities already shoved into that limited space in the new design: changing rooms, players entrance, media facilities, VIP entrance, TV vehicles, team vehicles. I can't say it would have been impossible, but it isn't fair to call it 'dead space' either.

DWCommuter

xper wrote: »

It doesn't sound like you guys have seen the plans (downloadable from online planning system) of what exactly has been built under the West Stand and podium at the new stadium.
First off, there is a pedestrian underpass so that the level crossing can remain closed throughout stadium events allowing trains to operate with impunity. I have read elsewhere (unverifiable, I grant you) that building a full traffic underpass, thus eliminating the level crossing permanently, was examined but rejected on grounds of cost, space required and impact on train operations during construction.
As for putting sidings under the stand/podium, there is a huge number of facilities already shoved into that limited space in the new design: changing rooms, players entrance, media facilities, VIP entrance, TV vehicles, team vehicles. I can't say it would have been impossible, but it isn't fair to call it 'dead space' either.

I saw the plans and have seen whats built. Removing the level crossing so that both pedestrian and road traffic movements can operate without affecting train movements is a no brainer. If cost is an excuse, its a bad one. If it was impact on train movements, then thats another bad excuse. You do it right or not at all. Accepting what was done is nothing more than a love affair with a traditional CIE railway management approach. Im sure they are quite happy with the way things stand.

The whole set up is a poorly planned/built enterprise that symbolises the Irish approach to everything - "It'll do".

oharach

MJohnston wrote: »

Crikey, this is the only example I've ever seen of people comparing Translink/NIR to anyone else in the world positively. They're an awful company, never once had a train on time with them in the many years I used them.

(my emphasis)

Does this mean that you haven't used them in the last few years? Because NIR has really turned a corner since the delivery of the C3K trains. They're a fantastic company, and the customer service is a million times better than the clowns in IR. Punctuality is also much improved, although not much can be done about the Enterprise's inherent reliability problems.

JHMEG

I haven't used NIR that much but found them to be courteous and customer focussed.

Customers are an inconvenience to IE.

Speaking of events it's funny how the privately run Luas can efficiently remove customers from the O2 late at night and dump them at Connolly and Heuston where the last trains are long gone.

smackyB

does anyone know if IR are going to continue the practice of closing grand canal dock during events at lansdowne road? could never figure out why they did this...

paulm17781

smackyB wrote: »

does anyone know if IR are going to continue the practice of closing grand canal dock during events at lansdowne road? could never figure out why they did this...

So the lads working there can watch the match.

Oliver1985

smackyB wrote: »

does anyone know if IR are going to continue the practice of closing grand canal dock during events at lansdowne road? could never figure out why they did this...

Something to do with crowd control son!!

smackyB

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Something to do with crowd control son!!

As in to stop people walking to grand canal dock?

Oliver1985

smackyB wrote: »

As in to stop people walking to grand canal dock?

No that the station was not big enough to deal with Large crowds something like Tara street on Paddys today!!!

smackyB

Oliver1985 wrote: »

No that the station was not big enough to deal with Large crowds something like Tara street on Paddys today!!!

I would've thought it could handle crowds just as well as Lansdowne. It's a pretty busy station at rush hour and they've added a new entrance.. Plus it would relieve that strain off Lansdowne somewhat..

Oliver1985

I know!! Im nearly sure that was the reason givin at the time! I normally take a pint after a game so never really have the problem with it being closed :eek:

smackyB

Oliver1985 wrote: »

I know!! Im nearly sure that was the reason givin at the time! I normally take a pint after a game so never really have the problem with it being closed :eek:

Yeh I work near there in the evenings so having it closed every time Lansdowne hosts something(which I'm sure is going to be a lot more frequent then it was as the IRFU/IFA milk it for every cent) is a pain.

spurious

JHMEG wrote: »

I haven't used NIR that much but found them to be courteous and customer focussed.

Customers are an inconvenience to IE.

Agreed. It used to be that to know you were in the north you checked out the good roads. On the Enterprise as you go through stations if you see groups of men in dirty, ill-fitting (apparently all one size) hi-vis vests, standing around chatting, you're in the south - smart uniforms, looking busy and with some semblance of pride in the job is the north.

Don't dare approach any of the hi-vis chatters as they will fix you with their steely eyes and claim ignorance of anything you ask them.

Zoney

spurious wrote: »

Agreed. It used to be that to know you were in the north you checked out the good roads. On the Enterprise as you go through stations if you see groups of men in dirty, ill-fitting (apparently all one size) hi-vis vests, standing around chatting, you're in the south - smart uniforms, looking busy and with some semblance of pride in the job is the north.

Maybe so, but the stations up North are in my opinion quite depressing and ugly-looking. I haven't much experience with NIR staff. With IÉ, often even if there shouldn't be a problem in the first place and the staff are making it up as they go along, the IÉ staff can be pretty down to earth (even if they can't always do much to help or know as little as you do about what's happening).

Finally, Translink/NIR are absolute pants for their website/ticketing. They make IÉ's web operations look a bastion of order, which is saying something!

If you book Dublin-Belfast return you can book a seat on non-first class services (and in my experience, this can matter on the Enterprise as I've been on some pretty packed trains). If you buy a ticket up north then you can only get a ticket not a seat unless you pay for first class.

Hungerford

Zoney wrote: »

Maybe so, but the stations up North are in my opinion quite depressing and ugly-looking.

In fairness, that was largely down to the sins of the UTA and the initial management of NIR who took the attitude that anything built before 1900 should be demolished. More recently, they seem to have done a nice job on the new Newry station.

I'll post about my recent experiences on NIR tomorrow....

JHMEG

Hungerford wrote: »

In fairness, that was largely down to the sins of the UTA and the initial management of NIR who took the attitude that anything built before 1900 should be demolished

And anything that crossed the border. The UTA were criminal alright, but thankfully like other terror groups with three letter acronyms they've been disbanded.

Hungerford

JHMEG wrote: »

And anything that crossed the border. The UTA were criminal alright, but thankfully like other terror groups with three letter acronyms they've been disbanded.

Indeed - they even had plans to single the Dublin-Belfast line before they were stopped. What's interesting is that in many cases, CIE only shut the corresponding line across the border because they were forced into it by the UTA's actions.

Anyway, in terms of my recent experiences with NIR, I have traveled on both the Belfast and Derry lines over the past couple of months. After years of being used to IE, it was like entering a parallel universe:

* NIR-operated Enterprise trains seem to announce not only the next stop but also the available connections. So you are told to switch at Portadown for local services etc.

* All services appear to have a train guard / ticket collector on them, who are generally visible and helpful to passengers with queries. They also check tickets and issue them to passengers who got on at unnamed stations.

* The stations appeared to be generally well-kept and tidy and none of the staff were just sitting around smoking on the platforms etc.

* Their new railcars have attractive interiors and appear to be cleaned on a regular basis. They also aren't half as noisy as their IE counterparts.

The only issue I have with NIR is that their online ticketing system is practically non-existent. Their journey times aren't actually that bad considering how underfunded they are. They do need some extra capacity but hopefully that will come with their new railcars.

oharach

Zoney wrote: »

Maybe so, but the stations up North are in my opinion quite depressing and ugly-looking.

Could you blame them for giving up on some stations like Lurgan, after it was blown up twice?

Some of the stations are indeed a bit drab, but they recently made a big effort to replace signage, retarmac platforms and make stations accessible, which was very welcome. In fact, well-run railways like DB seem to have a similar focus – functional and navigable stations – and consider beautification unnecessary.

Judgement Day

The UTA might not have been able to run trains or look after their railway architecture but they did a mean line in crockery - see pic of some of my collection of UTA 'Blue Brooklyn' crockery which I use every day.

Incidentally, I had two instances a couple of years ago where I felt obliged to write to NIR about good and bad service on the Enterprise; the latter involved some thoroughly unprofessional behaviour by staff at Belfast Central. On the whole I find most IE/NIR staff helpful enough and it is a small, highly visible minority that get everybody a bad name.

Zoney

Hungerford wrote: »

Their journey times aren't actually that bad considering how underfunded they are.

The service from Larne is pretty unreliable though. I'd heard bad things about it but when I experienced it myself and sure enough first time I used it, almost half an hour spent waiting at the last station before the bridge over the Lagan and spent waiting on the bridge for a Bangor train to pass in front (seems crazy that you can't have both lines go at the same time on parallel tracks for the short distance to Central).

JHMEG

Hungerford wrote: »

Indeed - they even had plans to single the Dublin-Belfast line before they were stopped.

It was my understanding they were planning on closing it altogether, and it took high level diplomatic intervention on our side to keep it open.

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

I saw the plans and have seen whats built. Removing the level crossing so that both pedestrian and road traffic movements can operate without affecting train movements is a no brainer.

. Hmm. I suspect an underpass would require expropriating most if not all of the houses east of the railway line on the south side of Lansdowne. Megabucks... plus the certainty that any underpass in Dublin will be hit - it's like truckers have bingo cards...