competency cert

paddy28

Does anyone know of any gun competency courses being held in the near future? Preferably in the West/Midlands?

Irish Springer

Taken form NARGC website;

UPCOMING SAFETY PROFICIENCY COURSES


June 26th 2010 Crover House Hotel, Mountnugent, Cavan - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Sean on 087.4172243


July 3rd 2010 Deebert House Hotel, Kilmallock at 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Jim on 086.3468006


July 10th 2010 Village Hall, Camross, Co. Laois at 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact John on 086.2405316


July 24th 2010 The Courtyard Hotel, Ferms, Co. Wexford - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Donal on 087.6371384


Aug. 7th 2010 Tougher's, Newbridge, Co. Kildare @ 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Robert on 087.7847080


Aug. 21st 2010 The Club House Hotel, Kilkenny City - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Brendan on 086.2750873


Sept 11th 2010 The Parkway Hotel, Dunmanway, Co. Cork - 9.30 am
for reservations contact Tim on 086.6031318


Sept. 12th 2010 The Parkway Hotel, Dunmanway, Co. Cork - 9.30 am
for reservations contact Tim on 086.6031318


NOTE ANY PERSON HAVING DIFFICULTY OBTAINING ENTRY TO ANY OF THE ABOVE SCHEDULED COURSES SHOULD CONTACT THE SAFETY COMMITTEE SECRETARY ON 1800 222 444.

clivej

Irish Springer wrote: »

Taken form NARGC website;

UPCOMING SAFETY PROFICIENCY COURSES


June 26th 2010 Crover House Hotel, Mountnugent, Cavan - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Sean on 087.4172243


July 3rd 2010 Deebert House Hotel, Kilmallock at 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Jim on 086.3468006


July 10th 2010 Village Hall, Camross, Co. Laois at 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact John on 086.2405316


July 24th 2010 The Courtyard Hotel, Ferms, Co. Wexford - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Donal on 087.6371384


Aug. 7th 2010 Tougher's, Newbridge, Co. Kildare @ 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Robert on 087.7847080


Aug. 21st 2010 The Club House Hotel, Kilkenny City - 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact Brendan on 086.2750873


Sept 11th 2010 The Parkway Hotel, Dunmanway, Co. Cork - 9.30 am
for reservations contact Tim on 086.6031318


Sept. 12th 2010 The Parkway Hotel, Dunmanway, Co. Cork - 9.30 am
for reservations contact Tim on 086.6031318


NOTE ANY PERSON HAVING DIFFICULTY OBTAINING ENTRY TO ANY OF THE ABOVE SCHEDULED COURSES SHOULD CONTACT THE SAFETY COMMITTEE SECRETARY ON 1800 222 444.

Is this for all guns including rifles or mainly dealing with shotguns?

Irish Springer

Shotguns as far as im aware

paddy28

Thanks for that. Will look them up and see if it'll do the job.

Sparks

paddy28 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Will look them up and see if it'll do the job.

If this is for the application form, you'll have to ask your local Superintendent - unfortunately, no course in Ireland (or outside of it) is automatically accepted as proof of competence yet because that whole area of the law is at best a bit wavy-handy. There's no list of accepted courses or standards for courses to meet or anything of that nature as yet.

cavan shooter

To date there has been no issue in relation to the NARGC courses so long as what you have applied for comes under the remit of NARGC activities. i.e your looking for a licence to shoot game/clays or rabbits.

Sparks

Which is good... but not a guarantee. It's a better idea to make the phone call to the Super to check ahead of time. If for no other reason than to demonstrate good intentions on your part.

Bananaman

Many target shooting clubs also run courses in firearms safety and handling if the license is for target shooting as opposed to hunting.

The majority of them now have instructors in the same courses and many would offer a 'Basic Rifle Safety and Handling' course. (You mentioned it was a rifle in question)

I'm a certified instructor in that course as are a number of members of my club and others.

If you need more info on that you could contact your nearest club, contact the NASRPC or NTSA to see about the nearest club that can help or PM me and I will try to point you in the right direction.

The Gardai will never specify any particular course as being the correct one (they are not in the training business) but if asked for a proficiency certificate you should tell them what course you plan to do and ask if passing that course will meet their requirement.

B'Man

paddy28

It's for a pellet gun. We have a farm and are completely and utterly overrun with rabbits. There's hundreds of them in each field. We also have thoroughbred mares, which is why we're not going to use a regular gun. Thought it would be easier to get a licence in this instance, but seems it's going to take a while.............

Bananaman

If you want them for the pot then that makes sense.

if you just want rid of them - get a man with a ferret.

B'Man

paddy28

We've considered that, but were having problems getting someone in our area, plus, it seems that it's going to be an ongoing problem. A lot of our neighbours are complaining too, and after a ferret they'd just multiply again almost overnight. There's going to be something very satisfying about picking off a few of them every evening. They really have taken over in a couple of fields. One small paddock had over a hundred in it yesterday! We'd need to get someone down on a regular basis, and we'd rather spend a few euro on something we'll have ourselves.

dCorbus

MNSCI also seem to running courses on firearms safety. Saw a group of lads in there a couple of weeks ago running through the course. More info to be had here MNSCI Firearms Safety Course if you do need this for the licence application. Can't say whether the course is any good or not (since I haven't done it), but considering who was doing the training, I'd be pretty happy that it's well up to scratch! Maybe someone who's done this course could let us know how they found it?

We also have thoroughbred mares, which is why we're not going to use a regular gun.

I would have thought that a .22lr with a Moderator would be more than quiet enough not to disturb the mares. And in your circumstances a case for a moderator can definitely be made.

Regardless of whether you were shooting with a Airgun or a Rifle a good backstop would be needed - and the horses kept well away from the area of shooting activity anyway.

Again, there's chaps here with tons of experience in this area - so perhaps they could advise you of your best options. Although, given the licencing rigmarole involved and the limitations on the practical applications and range of the airgun, maybe a rimfire rifle (with a moddy) might be another option for you to look at?

We'd need to get someone down on a regular basis, and we'd rather spend a few euro on something we'll have ourselves

Another option would be to get one of the experienced lads on here to help you out - There's a wealth of bunny shooters around these here parts who I'm sure would be more than happy to help you out.

I'm assuming they wouldn't expect payment for this.

deeksofdoom

Irish Springer wrote: »

Taken form NARGC website;

UPCOMING SAFETY PROFICIENCY COURSES

July 10th 2010 Village Hall, Camross, Co. Laois at 9.30 a.m.
for reservations contact John on 086.2405316

NOTE ANY PERSON HAVING DIFFICULTY OBTAINING ENTRY TO ANY OF THE ABOVE SCHEDULED COURSES SHOULD CONTACT THE SAFETY COMMITTEE SECRETARY ON 1800 222 444.

There's the answer to the OPs original question.

Sparks wrote: »

If this is for the application form, you'll have to ask your local Superintendent - unfortunately, no course in Ireland (or outside of it) is automatically accepted as proof of competence yet because that whole area of the law is at best a bit wavy-handy. There's no list of accepted courses or standards for courses to meet or anything of that nature as yet.

The NARGC proficiency course is perfectly acceptable to the Gardai, it has been since day one of the new licensing laws.

dCorbus

For rifles and pistols too?

What is really confusing me is how a firearms safety course can be held in a hotel, and not on a range or in the field? Or is this purely a theoretical course?

Thanks.

Cass

deeksofdoom wrote: »

..........The NARGC proficiency course is perfectly acceptable to the Gardai.........

Acceptable, but do you see a seal of approval on it or any course for that matter from An Gardai?

dCorbus wrote:

.........how a firearms safety course can be held in a hotel, and not on a range or in the field? Or is this purely a theoretical course?

Wasn't aware of that. Normally there is a "classroom" aspect to the course, but my thought would be that it should be held on the range and then out for the hands on training.

deeksofdoom

ezridax wrote: »

Acceptable, but do you see a seal of approval on it or any course for that matter from An Gardai?

Your right there, but the NARGC seems to be the most widely recognised body.

deeksofdoom

dCorbus wrote: »

For rifles and pistols too?

What is really confusing me is how a firearms safety course can be held in a hotel, and not on a range or in the field? Or is this purely a theoretical course?

Thanks.

In Cork the trainees are brought out to shoot a few clays at a local clay ground.

dCorbus

Just to get all anal about this, there are a couple of options open as far as "proof of competency" goes. To quote from the First Book of Fachtna:

depending on the circumstances of each case, an individual who has already possessed a certificate (without any convictions under the Firearms Act, 1925-2009) for a period of a minimum of 1 year may be considered to have fulfilled the proof of competency. First time applicants for firearms certificates may demonstrate that they have acquired a degree of competency in the use of firearms by satisfying the issuing person of having attended a firearms training course, or of having joined an authorised rifle or pistol club or range for the purpose of gaining competency in firearms use, or having previously been granted a firearms training certificate.

So, competency may be demonstated by compliance with one of the following criteria:
1. Possession (without Firearms related convictions) of a FAC for a minimum of 1 year.
2. Attendance at a firearms training course
3. Membership of an Authorised Rifle/Pistol Club or Range for the purpose of gaining competency in firearms use
4. Having been previously granted a Firearms Training Certificate

The Gardai do not indicate anywhere (AFAIK) which courses are or are not acceptable to them. If unsure, best to check with your F/O or Super - assuming it isn't obvious that you comply with categories 1, 3, or 4 I've listed above.

Although, I cannot see how an indoor classroom-only, with no dry- or live-firing, course could give anything other than an extremely cursory over-view to firearms safety.

Sparks

deeksofdoom wrote: »

The NARGC proficiency course is perfectly acceptable to the Gardai, it has been since day one of the new licensing laws.

The actual facts are that it has been accepted by the Gardai, which a different animal altogether.

The legislation requires proof of competence, but it does not specify how that competence is to be proven; that is left up to the licencing authority (ie. your local Superintendent or the relevant Chief Superintendent for restricted firearms applications). dCorbus has pointed out the guidelines from the commissioner above, but those are exactly that - guidelines. Not rules and not a list of courses. There are no courses in the country or outside of the country which have been designated as being acceptable to the Gardai for the purposes of proving competency under the legislation, at least not thus far.

In practical terms what this means is very simple and very straightforward - it means talk to your local Superintendent before you pay for a course. Odds are, he'll accept most courses. But the decision is his and his alone, at least for now. Spending 20 cents on a phone call seems cheap insurance on spending hundreds of euro attending a course (between course fees, travel expenses, etc - not to mention the time you put into it), at least to me...

And that is something that anyone taking on a course to support an application needs to know.


It should also be pointed out that none of this has anything at all to do with the merits of a course's syllabus or teaching methods. A course might well be very worthy on those grounds, and yet not be acceptable to your local superintendent. Or vice versa.

dCorbus

the trainees are brought out to shoot a few clays at a local clay ground.

So it's entirely shotgun based?
Any training on procedures relating to a miss- or hang-fire in a bolt-action rifle, for example?

Not knocking any course (as I have never been required to do a formal sit-down classroom course) - but surely the NARGC course wouldn't be suitable for rifles or pistol shooters, if the emphasis is on shotgun safety? Or is it being accepted as suitable?

Example, me: perfectly safe and competent with a rifle (one hopes!), because I've been instructed as to its safe use and handling - but for a pistol or shotgun, I'd need more instruction TBH before I could be let off unsupervised on my own to shoot away. Have had some informal instruction in both pistols and shotguns - but IMO not enough for me to put my hand on my heart and state that I am competent in their safe use and handling. Whereas, for rifles, I'd be happy enough to state that I am competent.

It's horses for courses, really - Pick the course that best suits whichever firearm you intend shooting - and make sure it's tailored to that firearms type. The general principles of firearms safety are the same across the board IMO but it's in the specifics that the more detailed safety issues might arise.

One thing we should remember is that any firearms safety course or training or instruction (formal or informal) is not primarily for the benefit of the Gardai and the DoJ - It's for the benefit of each shooters own safety and the safety of those around them (including their fellow shooters). Frankly, who cares whether the PTB think its a good course or not (since they wouldn't know tbh), it's our own safety as shooters which should and must be our primary concern. (RANT ends:D)

deeksofdoom

dCorbus wrote: »

So it's entirely shotgun based?

Nope

dCorbus wrote: »

Any training on procedures relating to a miss- or hang-fire in a bolt-action rifle, for example?

Can't remember the exact detail but it wouldn't be much of a course if it didn't. I'm pretty sure it covered misfires. Misfires in shotguns are the same as misfires in rifles.

dCorbus wrote: »

but surely the NARGC course wouldn't be suitable for rifles or pistol shooters, if the emphasis is on shotgun safety? Or is it being accepted as suitable?

Basic principles of safety for any firearm are the same. Its just that with a pistol you have a better chance of shooting yourself, due to its small size.

dCorbus wrote: »

Example, me: perfectly safe and competent with a rifle (one hopes!), because I've been instructed as to its safe use and handling - but for a pistol or shotgun, I'd need more instruction TBH before I could be let off unsupervised on my own to shoot away. Have had some informal instruction in both pistols and shotguns - but IMO not enough for me to put my hand on my heart and state that I am competent in their safe use and handling. Whereas, for rifles, I'd be happy enough to state that I am competent.

Safe handling of shotguns, pistols and rifles is pretty much the same, use your head and you'll be fine.

dCorbus wrote: »

It's horses for courses, really - Pick the course that best suits whichever firearm you intend shooting - and make sure it's tailored to that firearms type. The general principles of firearms safety are the same across the board IMO but it's in the specifics that the more detailed safety issues might arise.

One thing we should remember is that any firearms safety course or training or instruction (formal or informal) is not primarily for the benefit of the Gardai and the DoJ - It's for the benefit of each shooters own safety and the safety of those around them (including their fellow shooters). Frankly, who cares whether the PTB think its a good course or not (since they wouldn't know tbh), it's our own safety as shooters which should and must be our primary concern. (RANT ends:D)

The OP is looking to do a course that will ensuree he gets licensed on an air rifle!!! I'm sure the NARGC course would cover that.

dCorbus

Misfires in shotguns are the same as misfires in rifles

Oh, right.......:eek:
How to safely un-cock and re-cock the bolt in a shotgun must be fun!:D

Its just that with a pistol you have a better chance of shooting yourself, due to its small size

A better chance of shooting yourself perhaps - But if your finger's on the trigger of a rifle, pistol, shotgun, you've just the same chance of inadvertently and unexpectedly firing.

Safe handling of shotguns, pistols and rifles is pretty much the same, use your head and you'll be fine.

Right so, next time I'm using my rifle, I'll make sure she's broke open then.

The mechanics of safely using any of the above is massively different IMO.

The principles are the same - but that's not the same thing as knowing which button not to press or to press. Where's the safety on a pistol? Wheres the magazine release? How do I check the chamber is clear on a pistol? Being competent with a rifle or with a shotgun wouldn't tell you any of those mechanics TBH and that's the crux of my point.

Sparks

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Misfires in shotguns are the same as misfires in rifles.

Okay, seriously deeks, they're not. They're not even close to being the same. Handle a misfire in one the way you'd do it in another and the possible injuries are rather unpleasant.

And other mechanical differences lead to different safety procedures. For example, it's not really possible to put shotgun shells in the wrong way round; many centrefire rifle rounds can be, and rifle shooters need to know how to clear such misloads safely. Similarly, you rarely get rifle shooters accidentally dropping a .22lr round into a .308 rifle and then dropping a .308 round in after it; but you do get accidents like that in shotgun shooting. And there are a wealth of similar differences beyond those few examples.

Cass

Agree with dCorbus & Sparks on some points. To elaborate a bit ..............

deeksofdoom wrote:

Basic principles of safety for any firearm are the same. Its just that with a pistol you have a better chance of shooting yourself, due to its small size.

Safe handling of shotguns, pistols and rifles is pretty much the same, use your head and you'll be fine

While BASIC firearms safety for all firearms is similar, they are not mutually exclusive. Each type of firearm holds its own standards that stand alone from other firearms.

Case in point. A shotgun can be broken to show its unloaded and clear. A rifle needs it's bolt to be removed (or opened with a breach flag) and magazine ejected. A pistol needs to be unloaded, and visually cleared by an RO (or other authorised person). As pistols are either semi auto, revolver or single shot they have three ways. A semi auto needs the mag ejected, slide to be back and have an RO visually clear the firearm by checking the breach and mag well. A revolver must drop the cylinder, eject the empty shells, and again have it visually inspected. As it is not semi auto the hammer will not be in the "cocked" position therefore it can be safely stored away in it's case after being cleared. A single shot (depending on the type) would fall between the semi auto and revolver category.

I would think that the NARGC would not be the first choice for rifle and definitely not for pistol shooting safety courses, due to it being mainly the body for game clubs and primarily a shotgun (but not solely) based organisation.

Out of curiosity, has anyone here attended an NARGC rifle or pistol competency course? Did they host it themselves or simply choose a close by range and have them run it? I only ask as the NARGC have no "grounds" on which to hold a live fire demonstration/training course. So where are they held?

cavan shooter

dCorbus wrote: »

For rifles and pistols too?

What is really confusing me is how a firearms safety course can be held in a hotel, and not on a range or in the field? Or is this purely a theoretical course?

Thanks.

Its been answered already but heres my view on it(which was done on previous threads last year)

There are two aspects of the NARGC proficiency course. (not to be mixed up with the 2 hr information evenings)

1, class room covering the wildlife act, fire arms act and safe handling of firearms (morning)

2. Shotgun handling which is done on the range

There is also a 2 hr "talk" that NARGC, run and a couple of others which should not be mixed up with the proficiency course and quite a waste of time if you ask me as it doesnt allow for hands on tuition.

BTW All new members of our club must attend the proficiency course even if you have this certiificate.

The NARGC proficiency course in various formats has been on the go 20 yrs or more, I sat one when I was 16 I am 39 now.

It would be appropriate for an individual to sit a course with there representative body for whatever discipline or sport there into. Why if I wanted to shoot pistols would I want to sit a course that covers

1. Game shooting
2. wildlife recognition
3. wild life acts
4. shotguns and rifles
5. Firearm safety in the field.

and then be assessed out on a range in relation to the above safe handling

remember competence is defined as having
appropriate training, knowledge and experience for a task. So even the proficeicy course is only a stepping stone on the way to being a safe competent shooter. A proficency course (Any) at that matter should be re done over time, It for a first time shooter probabally at a push demonstrates you have knowledge and some training.People mix up experienced shooters with safe competent shooters.....there is a world of a difference.

The NARGC safety manual and the Proficiency course manual are available to buy. BTW it might be no harm putting a stickie up of all the training courses available, because its a hot topic at present.