what use is Irish?

cloda

seanor3 wrote: »

Very little.

i dont agree it shows respect for where we come from

Krusader

Fuinseog wrote: »

I do not really buy into good and bad dialects. I do find some farmers incomprehensile and object to them being labelled as fior ghael because of some thick tongued mumble.
maybe its time for urban gaelgeoiri to set the standard. they generally have good grammar which is more than I can say about some people in the reservations known as the fior ghaeltacht.

Aren't they changing the CO this year to reflect more how native speakers speak the language especially the TG and adjectives

Aard

While I myself find many "countreh" accents incomprehensible, I don't think that that should be a deterrent for basing the standard on them. Likewise, I would hate hate hate for the Dublin/urban/learners' accent to become the norm. Even though I have had such an accent from age 3, I'm still actively trying to de-diphthongise my vowels, properly palatise/velarise my consonants, and generally avoid the English inflection.


Having said that, though, I do think that all media should follow the standard, at least in so far as lenition/eclipsis goes. All too often I see dialectal (I do not say this with a sneer, a dialect is every bit as valid as a standard) grammar in news articles, and tbh it confuses me. It makes the language that little bit more inaccessible for learners, who should be cherished if the language is to survive.

pog it

It is crazy to develop the standard just to make it more accessible for learners.

Why don't learners just put some extra work in to get the small things that make a BIG difference?? Or just don't bother if you can't be arsed!

To be honest, I'm starting to feel that Irish would be better off dying a dignified death when the Gaeltachts die than going on and on on life- support in the form of this urban/Dublin non Irish-Irish. I certainly wouldn't have an interest in Irish if I didn't have a chance to listen to native speakers. As it is I turn off anyone who hasn't at least TRIED to get some native blas on their Irish.

When the Gaeltachts and Gaeltacht Irish dies out, Irish is Focked. There won't be much government support. And the Fuinseogs of this world can speak all they want to each other but they'll be an even smaller minority than the Gaeltacht speakers now with no audience other than themselves. Good luck to them.

Aard

@pog it:
I'm not sure if your post is directed at mine above it, but I think the first sentence is.

I'm not suggesting developing the standard just to facilitate learners. What I was suggesting is that the media (particularly the written media) use the standard as it is. In no way, shape, or form should it be dumbed down, for want of a better phrase, just for the learners. On that I completely agree that they should just put in the effort. I hope you didn't take from my post that I was suggesting getting rid of things like lenition and eclipsis, for example.

Enkidu

Crosáidí wrote: »

Aren't they changing the CO this year to reflect more how native speakers speak the language especially the TG and adjectives

Yeah, for anybody interested here's a few links:
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/AnCheadTreimhseComhairliuchain/
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/Scoipanphroisis/

It seems that they are most interested in bringing the Official Standard (An Caighdeán Oifigiúil) into line with other standards like the Christian Brothers Grammar (Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí) and super-dictionary of Uí Dhónaill.

Since the Christian brothers grammar is based on the Munster standard of the 30s and 40s, like deise go deo mentioned, I wonder what this will mean.

As for the Standard itself, it currently doesn't standardise pronunciation and some have suggested it should. As long as it doesn't actually simplify the language (some have suggested dropping lenition (?!)), I don't particularly mind if it's closer to one dialect.

Thankfully the committee for the new standard is full of native speakers from each dialect, so hopefully it will actual just be a standard for the language, not simplified nonsense most of us wouldn't want. It would seem from the first consultation period on the website that the new standard is heading in a good direction, in my opinion.

pog it

Aard wrote: »

@pog it:
I'm not sure if your post is directed at mine above it, but I think the first sentence is.

I'm not suggesting developing the standard just to facilitate learners. What I was suggesting is that the media (particularly the written media) use the standard as it is. In no way, shape, or form should it be dumbed down, for want of a better phrase, just for the learners. On that I completely agree that they should just put in the effort. I hope you didn't take from my post that I was suggesting getting rid of things like lenition and eclipsis, for example.

Aard I know you're a genuine sort and Irish needs people like you. I was referring to the calls in general looking to make changes to the rules of the genitive etc. just to make it more straightforward for learners. Nobody wants to make life any harder on themselves than necessary but for those who just can't be bothered and who criticise those who have it from birth, they make me sick, and honestly, Irish does NOT need their sort in my opinion. They are adding no positive value to the language. It's only my own opinion, but like I said, if Irish can't be treated with respect, then it's better it dies a natural and dignifed death.

Anyway, thankfully there are few Fuinseogs around.

deise go deo

Enkidu wrote: »

Since the Christian brothers grammar is based on the Munster standard of the 30s and 40s, like deise go deo mentioned, I wonder what this will mean.

I dident even know that:D

I just heard that munster Irish was considered the moast prestigious form early on because most of the earlier books were written through it, I dident know about the Christan Brothers.

I like that there are differences between the dialects and even some diference from gaeltacht to gaeltacht, Some people when learning Irish choose to focous on a particular dialect so I think the media espically spoken such as RnaG and TG4 should include broadcasts using the dialects. I Personally want to learn Munster Irish.

Fuinseog

pog it wrote: »

Wow. What a negative and backward attitude.

I think Fuinseog is a troll- instead of feeding it, we are all better off ignoring it.

would you care to explain yourself? if you have nothing contribute then please do ignore the thread.

Fuinseog

Aard wrote: »

While I myself find many "countreh" accents incomprehensible, I don't think that that should be a deterrent for basing the standard on them. Likewise, I would hate hate hate for the Dublin/urban/learners' accent to become the norm. Even though I have had such an accent from age 3, I'm still actively trying to de-diphthongise my vowels, properly palatise/velarise my consonants, and generally avoid the English inflection.


Having said that, though, I do think that all media should follow the standard, at least in so far as lenition/eclipsis goes. All too often I see dialectal (I do not say this with a sneer, a dialect is every bit as valid as a standard) grammar in news articles, and tbh it confuses me. It makes the language that little bit more inaccessible for learners, who should be cherished if the language is to survive.

Flann O Brien had something to say on the matter in An Beal Bocht, something along the lines that a visting German was of the opinion that 'good' Irish was difficult to understand but the best Irish was nigh on in comprehensible.

as an urban dweller I prefer urban Irish, which is not necessarily learners Irish. Conamara Irish is full of idioms realting to cows and agriculture which goes right over my head. just because I speak Irish does not mean I should aspire to becoming a peasant farmer.

Fuinseog

Enkidu wrote: »

Yeah, for anybody interested here's a few links:
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/AnCheadTreimhseComhairliuchain/
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/Scoipanphroisis/

It seems that they are most interested in bringing the Official Standard (An Caighdeán Oifigiúil) into line with other standards like the Christian Brothers Grammar (Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí) and super-dictionary of Uí Dhónaill.

Since the Christian brothers grammar is based on the Munster standard of the 30s and 40s, like deise go deo mentioned, I wonder what this will mean.

As for the Standard itself, it currently doesn't standardise pronunciation and some have suggested it should. As long as it doesn't actually simplify the language (some have suggested dropping lenition (?!)), I don't particularly mind if it's closer to one dialect.

Thankfully the committee for the new standard is full of native speakers from each dialect, so hopefully it will actual just be a standard for the language, not simplified nonsense most of us wouldn't want. It would seem from the first consultation period on the website that the new standard is heading in a good direction, in my opinion.

interesting that you should mention the Christian brothers. they did a lot for the langauge but were also influential in developing a vocab devoid of sex. masturbation for example is feintruailliu (self pollution) while the old irish word for it translated as 'palm party'. some might say there was no sex as gaeilge before TnaG.

Fuinseog

deise go deo wrote: »

I dident even know that:D

I just heard that munster Irish was considered the moast prestigious form early on because most of the earlier books were written through it, I dident know about the Christan Brothers.

I like that there are differences between the dialects and even some diference from gaeltacht to gaeltacht, Some people when learning Irish choose to focous on a particular dialect so I think the media espically spoken such as RnaG and TG4 should include broadcasts using the dialects. I Personally want to learn Munster Irish.

some people think there are hugh differences between the dialects when in reality all it is is accent and a vocab you could count on the one hand. if they do not understand gaelic then they say they do not understand the dialect.

pog it

Fuinseog wrote: »

would you care to explain yourself? if you have nothing contribute then please do ignore the thread.

Don't worry, I have nothing further to contribute to this thread.

I am more concerned with positively contributing to the Irish language

FruitLover

deise go deo wrote: »

Is staisún raidió gaeilge ar on idirlion é

Please, for the love of Jaysus, use the words 'idirghréasán' or 'idirghréas'; not 'idirlíon'. The English phrase 'internet' is composed of the words 'interconnected' and 'network'. 'Líon' means 'net' as in a net that's used for catching fish. Not a computer network.

Krusader

An tIdirlíon - The Internet according to my foclóir, get back in your box son!

In FGB líon can also mean "web", just the same as greasán
and I would bet that the etymology of the word network is linked to the word net in anyways

FruitLover

Crosáidí wrote: »

An tIdirlíon - The Internet according to my foclóir

I think you should look for a refund, a mhic...

Krusader

It also gives "líonra" for a computer network

Either way Idirlíon has been accepted as the word for internet among gaeilgóirí across the globe

Edit: and focal.ie confirms it also

deise go deo

FruitLover wrote: »

Please, for the love of Jaysus, use the words 'idirghréasán' or 'idirghréas'; not 'idirlíon'. The English phrase 'internet' is composed of the words 'interconnected' and 'network'. 'Líon' means 'net' as in a net that's used for catching fish. Not a computer network.

:rolleyes:

I have never seen the word idirghréasán, Please pardon my ignorence,
Is it not generally considered rude to correct others (percieved) mistakes uninvited a chara?

Krusader

FruitLover wrote: »

I think you should look for a refund, a mhic...

Cad chuige?

Krusader

deise go deo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I have never seen the word idirghréasán, Please pardon my ignorence,
Is it not generally considered rude to correct others (percieved) mistakes uninvited a chara?

yep, its not the correction, its the manner in which it was done and then its not even right

Saab Ed

Irish is of no beneficial use to anybody unless you want to be an irish teacher to teach a language that is not beneficial to anybody.

Modern day Irish speakers aint the last of a long line 100th generation native speakers , they're jam it down your throat , angry disjointed people who have silly sounding second names in Irish ( half the time of English origin ) people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past of the past 100s of years , the very part that makes up their most recent history.

Irish is not our national language no matter what the heads in the clouds bunch might think . We speak English , have done for a very long time now. Irish might be a part of our history but its a waste of time and money in modern learning unless the person has a desire to learn and pay for that learning themselves.

deise go deo

Saab Ed wrote: »

Irish is of no beneficial use to anybody unless you want to be an irish teacher to teach a language that is not beneficial to anybody.

Modern day Irish speakers aint the last of a long line 100th generation native speakers , they're jam it down your throat , angry disjointed people who have silly sounding second names in Irish ( half the time of English origin ) people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past of the past 100s of years , the very part that makes up their most recent history.

Irish is not our national language no matter what the heads in the clouds bunch might think . We speak English , have done for a very long time now. Irish might be a part of our history but its a waste of time and money in modern learning unless the person has a desire to learn and pay for that learning themselves.

Sigh:rolleyes:

What exactily are you baseing this tirade on?

Krusader

It's posts like that show how uneducated people are about our language

HellsAngel

Saab Ed wrote: »

Irish is of no beneficial use to anybody unless you want to be an irish teacher to teach a language that is not beneficial to anybody.

Modern day Irish speakers aint the last of a long line 100th generation native speakers , they're jam it down your throat , angry disjointed people who have silly sounding second names in Irish ( half the time of English origin ) people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past of the past 100s of years , the very part that makes up their most recent history.

Irish is not our national language no matter what the heads in the clouds bunch might think . We speak English , have done for a very long time now. Irish might be a part of our history but its a waste of time and money in modern learning unless the person has a desire to learn and pay for that learning themselves.

" people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past " Oh I think I know where your from alright, why don't you go off and learn your Ulster Scots 'language'

HellsAngel

Maybe I should start this as a seperate thread, but are the Gaelscoil's not helping the language ( BTW I'm one of those thousands who had the interest in Irish battered out of me by the 'Christian' brothers in the national scholl. hoping to do night classes in September ).

Only thing is, many who can speak the language fluently having gone through Gaelscoil's and don't hardly use it ?

Here are some stats -

There are 50,000 pupils attending gaelscoileanna (both inside and outside the Gaeltacht regions) in 368 primary and secondary schools.

• In the Gaeltacht: 127 primary schools: 29 secondary schools with 15,000 pupils and students.
• Outside the Gaeltacht: 171 primary schools: 43 secondary schools with 35,500 pupils and students.
• Naíonraí: 227 preschool groups with 4,000 children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelscoil

Saab Ed

HellsAngel wrote: »

" people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past " Oh I think I know where your from alright, why don't you go off and learn your Ulster Scots 'language'

Cavan and Kilkenny blood lines are not exactly what you'd describe as West Brit .....

But like it or lump it part of the reason I have no time for the Irish language is because of the complete denial of what the language is today. People using it as a way to replace actuall history with that of one thats in their imagination ,who deny the British culture that is in us Irish people today.

The Irish language and its modern day users ( not actuall west of Ireland native speakers... if there is such a thing left ) are all part of a group of sectarian ( reference the above quote ) , Republican dinosaurs who want to jam a language down the throats of everybody and deny 100s of years of history in the process while at the same time costing the exchequer a fortune on subsidised bullsh!t. ( A friend of my wifes recently refused to sign a contract of employment as a teacher because it wasnt in Irish, what type of horsesh!te is that. FFS if you cant speak English as a teacher then there's plenty of people looking for work at the moment )

Those who respect an Irish republican flag and claiming Celtic heritage even though most of the remaining gene pool is this country is of British or European lineage. Being Irish does not suggest that we all have to scribe with a celtic font , that we must all learn the native tongue of 200 years ago , that we must force the past upon everybody and in doing so actually forgetting our real history and denying the real past. Being irish is just being ourselves and not some sort of forced Paddy whackery that we promote to the world with this gaelic theme. We speak English here now just like a couple of thousand years ago we spoke something totaly different to Irish or English. Keep your version of what the country should be to yourself for yourself , me I'll live in the real world :cool:

Enkidu

Saab Ed wrote: »

... and claiming Celtic heritage even though most of the remaining gene pool is this country is of British or European lineage.

What?
Ignoring the stuff about the Irish language for the moment, where are you getting the idea that people in Ireland have a mostly British or European lineage? (By which I assume you mean continental European since it is trivially true that the Irish have European genetics by virtue of being European)

Most genetic studies don't support any of this. In fact Irish and British genetics mostly trace back to the Mesolithic peoples of these islands. There is then some Celtic influx. The only real distinguishing features is that there is a concentration of Indo-European genes in eastern England (if Haplogroup R1a is Indo-European).

We are both already similar, as well as being similar to Portuguese and Spanish. However this isn't something from the last few hundred years, it's millennia old.

Aard

@Saab Ed:

I know what you mean about the Gaeilge Über Alles brigade. However, I feel that they are nothing but a vociferous minority among Irish speakers. The latest "generation", if you will, of Irish speakers are an awful lot more pragmatic and realistic. In fact, most Irish speakers I know would not agree with there being compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert. It's easy to generalise about people who one might feel are behind wasted years in school, and wasted public money. But, honestly, we're not all like that.

deise go deo

Saab Ed wrote: »

Cavan and Kilkenny blood lines are not exactly what you'd describe as West Brit .....

But like it or lump it part of the reason I have no time for the Irish language is because of the complete denial of what the language is today. People using it as a way to replace actuall history with that of one thats in their imagination ,who deny the British culture that is in us Irish people today.

The Irish language and its modern day users ( not actuall west of Ireland native speakers... if there is such a thing left ) are all part of a group of sectarian ( reference the above quote ) , Republican dinosaurs who want to jam a language down the throats of everybody and deny 100s of years of history in the process while at the same time costing the exchequer a fortune on subsidised bullsh!t. ( A friend of my wifes recently refused to sign a contract of employment as a teacher because it wasnt in Irish, what type of horsesh!te is that. FFS if you cant speak English as a teacher then there's plenty of people looking for work at the moment )

Those who respect an Irish republican flag and claiming Celtic heritage even though most of the remaining gene pool is this country is of British or European lineage. Being Irish does not suggest that we all have to scribe with a celtic font , that we must all learn the native tongue of 200 years ago , that we must force the past upon everybody and in doing so actually forgetting our real history and denying the real past. Being irish is just being ourselves and not some sort of forced Paddy whackery that we promote to the world with this gaelic theme. We speak English here now just like a couple of thousand years ago we spoke something totaly different to Irish or English. Keep your version of what the country should be to yourself for yourself , me I'll live in the real world :cool:

Can I be a T-Rex?:D

I dident know they made shoulders big enough to accomodate a chip that size.:P

deise go deo

HellsAngel wrote: »

" people who are proud of their Irishness yet deny their British past " Oh I think I know where your from alright, why don't you go off and learn your Ulster Scots 'language'

But Ulster Scots is a language,

Stop laughing:D