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The danger of Socialism.

  • 11-06-2010 06:55PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭


    I'm sure we all saw that opinion poll result that claims Labour are the most popular party. Now I know statistics say nothing because if I went into an IRA bar up town and did a survey, I could get figures that prove SF are the top men.

    That being said, I think it is safe to assume that labour have at least seen some rise in popularity and that worries me. Anyone who has a good grasp on history and politics will probably agree with me when I say that socialism is a seriously dangerous way to run a country. We need only looking at Greece for a modern example or have a look at the Soviet Union to see what damage socialism does.

    Labour could win alot of seats by simply promising things like more dole money, no PS wage cuts, high tax on MNCs and other things like free doctors and a free sickle and hammer for every child in the country. Now I know politicians promise things all the time but I actually think Labour are somewhat honest in that they will not make cuts and that's why I'm afraid of them.

    So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.


    EDIT: I made a typo in the title :(, can a mod fix this cause I don't seem to be able to?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I'm sure we all saw that opinion poll result that claims Labour are the most popular party. Now I know statistics say nothing because if I went into an IRA bar up town and did a survey, I could get figures that prove SF are the top men.

    That being said, I think it is safe to assume that labour have at least seen some rise in popularity and that worries me. Anyone who has a good grasp on history and politics will probably agree with me when I say that socialism is a seriously dangerous way to run a country. We need only looking at Greece for a modern example or have a look at the Soviet Union to see what damage socialism does.

    Labour could win alot of seats by simply promising things like more dole money, no PS wage cuts, high tax on MNCs and other things like free doctors and a free sickle and hammer for every child in the country. Now I know politicians promise things all the time but I actually think Labour are somewhat honest in that they will not make cuts and that's why I'm afraid of them.

    So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.


    EDIT: I made a typo in the title :(, can a mod fix this cause I don't seem to be able to?
    Fair enough but you have said on another thread you want the social welfare system dismantled..and what then for the people getting laid off in ireland?

    Also i'm not a fan of Labour but FG lack of back bone is worrying against the outright criminality of the FF party


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Fair enough but you have said on another thread you want the social welfare system dismantled..and what then for the people getting laid off in ireland?

    Also i'm not a fan of Labour but FG lack of back bone is worrying against the outright criminality of the FF party


    That was a poor choice of words, if you go back to that thread, I've explained what I meant. For the record, I'm not some right wing nut case who thinks it's the fault of the person for being unemployed. My comment about the welfare state was how it is making people less responsible for their actions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    That was a poor choice of words, if you go back to that thread, I've explained what I meant. For the record, I'm not some right wing nut case who thinks it's the fault of the person for being unemployed. My comment about the welfare state was how it is making people less responsible for their actions.
    I like the word 'responsibility' here..something the criminals of FF don't understand.
    They need to be made accountable for their actions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    In this country there has always been a choice between a centre right party getting into power or a centre-right party getting into power.
    Personally, I'm not worried one bit seeing our civil war politics leaving us for good after almost a century.

    We need to move forward, and stop flipping the same coin over and over again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,223 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    How I wish we had a centre-right party (well from an economic point of view anyway. Then we might have had fiscally responsible government, as opposed to a government whose spending policy resembled Principal Skinner's when Springfield Elementary struck oil.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I like the word 'responsibility' here..something the criminals of FF don't understand.
    They need to be made accountable for their actions.


    I dislike FF as much as anyone with half a brain but do not fool yourself into the comfortable assumption that FF are the root of Ireland's problem; they are merely a symptom.

    Remember, FF got re-elected twice during the boom and they did this by giving people exactly what they wanted. Back in 2002, Bertie knew well there are a danger of recession so he fiddled with taxes and hey presto, bought us another 5 years of the "good times". Had he done the right thing and let what probably would have been a mild recession happen, he would probably have lost the election that year and whoever got in in his wake would have done precisely what he did do.

    People blame FF and the bankers but this is just an empty expression. FF and many bankers played a part but so did millions of people who sat back and did nothing because the good times were in.

    But hey, we're entitled to a house, big car(s), five holidays a year and no responsibility so who am I to say otherwise :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Didn't the last labour financer minister balance the books?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,223 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Yes but I don't think the current Labour party incarnation shares Ruairi Quinn's views on responsible finance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Stark wrote: »
    Yes but I don't think the current Labour party incarnation shares Ruairi Quinn's views on responsible finance.

    Well that is what needs to be found out. I find the thread title to be engaging in scare mongering, Bertie was a self declared socialist and they spent like a Republican President, tried to keep the unions/public service happy. So I'd say the danger has already happened, now it's more a danger of financial ignorance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    It always annoys me when people use the Soviet Union as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Too much Fox News methinks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭phkk


    Would be considered floating voter but definitely Gilmore's leadership appeals to me...if Cowen had any honour or respect for himself,family or his country, he would do the honourable thing and resign...


    Did anybody see P.Time last night-it showed Bertie giving the quote twice "they should commit suicide.."-wonder how he feels now when he hears that again??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.

    In fairness RichardAnd, likening the Labour Party to the Soviet Union in a thread starter doesn't exactly make for "mature" discussion.

    I think their economic policies could be poor for the economy, however we'll always have the option of leaving Ireland if we want. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,223 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I think their economic policies could be poor for the economy, however we'll always have the option of leaving Ireland if we want. :)

    Not if the passport office workers are still on "work to rule".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

    who needs responsibility when the core of socialism is all about spreading wealth around (or lack of) with the whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" mindset

    I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    Socialism is not the answer for anything but more importantly can we destroy FF and make it a crime against intelligence to even support them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

    who needs responsibility when the core of socialism is all about spreading wealth around (or lack of) with the whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" mindset

    I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them

    I can see where you're coming from ei.sdraob, and it's one of the dangers of this period in Ireland's history.

    If wealth gets spread around without responsibility or contributions, then there will be no wealth.

    At the moment, people are watching their hard-earned cash get spread around to blatant capitalists and bankers, despite the fact that the millions that they earned during the boom didn't see its way into most pockets.

    So a knee-jerk reaction is understandably to want it spread around more evenly.

    The question is whether ethics and responsibility can register in Leinster House, and filter down, so that people will start believing that they're entitled to a certain amount as long as they contribute, and that anything extra that they work for won't be ripped away from them to pay expenses and golden handshakes for people who not only don't contribute to society, but actively take from it.

    Until the Dáil imposes standards on its members, the average Joe is going to see them lining their pockets and those of their mates, and throw their hat at the whole concept of fair wage for fair work.

    I know I always believed in that, and right now I'm barely able to control myself enough to keep that mindset.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I can see where you're coming from ei.sdraob, and it's one of the dangers of this period in Ireland's history.

    If wealth gets spread around without responsibility or contributions, then there will be no wealth.

    At the moment, people are watching their hard-earned cash get spread around to blatant capitalists and bankers, despite the fact that the millions that they earned during the boom didn't see its way into most pockets.

    So a knee-jerk reaction is understandably to want it spread around more evenly.

    The question is whether ethics and responsibility can register in Leinster House, and filter down, so that people will start believing that they're entitled to a certain amount as long as they contribute, and that anything extra that they work for won't be ripped away from them to pay expenses and golden handshakes for people who not only don't contribute to society, but actively take from it.

    Until the Dáil imposes standards on its members, the average Joe is going to see them lining their pockets and those of their mates, and throw their hat at the whole concept of fair wage for fair work.

    I know I always believed in that, and right now I'm barely able to control myself enough to keep that mindset.

    How about not spreading around anything in first place and concentrate on policies that would lift all boats

    as you know i am quite vocal on this forum about all sorts of **** being socialized, and not just the banks, thats not capitalism but "gombeenism" :( in a proper capitalist system failure is not rewarded


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them
    Labour will not extend agony and will ruin economy in few months by their concept of excessive taxes and massive redistribution of wealth to their supporters.
    I don’t see better candidates for taking full responsibility of defaulting country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    In this country there has always been a choice between a centre right party getting into power or a centre-right party getting into power.
    Personally, I'm not worried one bit seeing our civil war politics leaving us for good after almost a century.

    We need to move forward, and stop flipping the same coin over and over again.

    It has never been such a choice. Since 1977, 33 years ago, we have only about 6/7 years without Fianna Fail. We have had a populist party which has governed with a far-right party (PDs), a socialist party (Labour) and an environmental movement (Greens). As a result of this we have the most popular elements of each of them

    - the lowest Corporation Tax in the old EU 15
    - the highest old-age pension
    - the most lax regulatory system for banks and financial operators
    - the longest payment of one-parent allowance
    - the best tax breaks for property purchase
    - the highest paid public servants
    - some of the highest environmental standards on paper
    - the lowest environmental standards in reality because we don't enforce them


    All of the above are wrong and there are loads more but they were born from FF's addiction to populism rather than any ideological approach.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    kowloon wrote: »
    It always annoys me when people use the Soviet Union as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Too much Fox News methinks.

    ok fair point , so tell us a country where it does work ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭George Orwell 1982


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

    I don't think so. Most mainstream left wing parties are in favour of a progressive taxation system, good public and social services, free healthcare and education, and employment creation so that you have equality of opportunity. If you have a two tier health and education system and enormous inequality of wealth in a society you get self perpetuating elites. Most socialist parties [the far left aside] just want a fairer society. France generally has been more socialist in its policies, so you have good free health and education for everyone, good public services etc, higher taxes on the very wealthy. Thats generally the direction most left wing parties want to go.

    Creating greater equality of opportunity doesn't mean people have no responsiblity. The number of people who want to sit on the dole is actually, I suspect, quite low. And left wing parties don't want to encourage that practice - they want to create jobs. You may argue with their job creation strategies, nevertheless, they do want to create jobs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I don't think so. Most mainstream left wing parties are in favour of a progressive taxation system, good public and social services, free healthcare and education, and employment creation so that you have equality of opportunity. If you have a two tier health and education system and enormous inequality of wealth in a society you get self perpetuating elites. Most socialist parties [the far left aside] just want a fairer society. France generally has been more socialist in its policies, so you have good free health and education for everyone, good public services etc, higher taxes on the very wealthy. Thats generally the direction most left wing parties want to go.

    Creating greater equality of opportunity doesn't mean people have no responsiblity. The number of people who want to sit on the dole is actually, I suspect, quite low. And left wing parties don't want to encourage that practice - they want to create jobs. You may argue with their job creation strategies, nevertheless, they do want to create jobs.

    So please enlighten us how will socialist parties go about "creating jobs" with a 20 billion a year deficit

    let me guess by taxing the remaining people and companies that have jobs putting them under greater strain and risk
    in order to pay for ones that dont


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    I agree the going with Labour will be the death of Ireland but we are almost dead anyway thanks to FF.

    When need FF TD's locked up for what they have done to give us that believe that we have a future in Ireland and the crims will not destroy the place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    on the plus side, anyone with a mortgage can work out pretty quickly that labour means higher taxes, A labour TD J. Tuffy wrote on a blog last year a comment to the effect if "how much money does an individual need"
    in the minds of many voters, voting labour would be like turkeys voting for xmas

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    How about not spreading around anything in first place and concentrate on policies that would lift all boats

    as you know i am quite vocal on this forum about all sorts of **** being socialized, and not just the banks, thats not capitalism but "gombeenism" :( in a proper capitalist system failure is not rewarded

    I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

    But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    left wing parties dont help create jobs in the private sector. They increase taxes on business and higher earners, reducing business's ability to grow and complete and reducing the incentive of those who may be in a position to employ to try to earn more. The only jobs left wing parties create are in the civil service. A labour government would be (and as a person whos never voted or supported ff this is hard for me to say)far worse then the continuation of the ff government.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

    But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.

    Why are we uncompetitive?- High wage levels , we have one of the highest paid public servants in the world and labour want to reverse their pay cuts and pay for this with with efficiency savings , one of which is an examination of pension reliefs (which of course my public sector brethren do not have to avail of), i.e increase the tax paid by the private sector to maintain the benefits of their support base. It always amuses me to see the lunatic left on boards harp on about the Greedy Capitalists and Evil developers who have ruined our country and point to labour as some answer to this, all they are is another cabal looking to get into power and divvy up the national purse to their own.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭CrackisWhack


    danbohan wrote: »
    ok fair point , so tell us a country where it does work ?


    Scandinavian countries?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭CrackisWhack


    I think people may be going a bit over the top as to how far left Labour are! Personally i think Irish politics needs a bit more of a social conscience, especially after the current shower of ****


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

    But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.

    I am someone who works, likes to work and runs a small business

    The very last thing I want and/or need is even more taxes to be "redistributed" from me by socialists, the last decade of FF playing the populist card is bad enough

    FF might call themselves center right but their economic policies have been leftie as history have shown, pondering and pleasing all sorts of interests groups (like unions and developers) at the expense of the economy

    Labour have not come up with a credible economic policy and are playing the populist string, and their leaders can not answer a question straight

    they are nothing more than Fianna Fail reinvented

    no thanks

    i dont want more of the same ****e under a different banner


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