The danger of Socialism.

RichardAnd

I'm sure we all saw that opinion poll result that claims Labour are the most popular party. Now I know statistics say nothing because if I went into an IRA bar up town and did a survey, I could get figures that prove SF are the top men.

That being said, I think it is safe to assume that labour have at least seen some rise in popularity and that worries me. Anyone who has a good grasp on history and politics will probably agree with me when I say that socialism is a seriously dangerous way to run a country. We need only looking at Greece for a modern example or have a look at the Soviet Union to see what damage socialism does.

Labour could win alot of seats by simply promising things like more dole money, no PS wage cuts, high tax on MNCs and other things like free doctors and a free sickle and hammer for every child in the country. Now I know politicians promise things all the time but I actually think Labour are somewhat honest in that they will not make cuts and that's why I'm afraid of them.

So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.


EDIT: I made a typo in the title , can a mod fix this cause I don't seem to be able to?

merlynthewizard

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm sure we all saw that opinion poll result that claims Labour are the most popular party. Now I know statistics say nothing because if I went into an IRA bar up town and did a survey, I could get figures that prove SF are the top men.

That being said, I think it is safe to assume that labour have at least seen some rise in popularity and that worries me. Anyone who has a good grasp on history and politics will probably agree with me when I say that socialism is a seriously dangerous way to run a country. We need only looking at Greece for a modern example or have a look at the Soviet Union to see what damage socialism does.

Labour could win alot of seats by simply promising things like more dole money, no PS wage cuts, high tax on MNCs and other things like free doctors and a free sickle and hammer for every child in the country. Now I know politicians promise things all the time but I actually think Labour are somewhat honest in that they will not make cuts and that's why I'm afraid of them.

So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.


EDIT: I made a typo in the title , can a mod fix this cause I don't seem to be able to?

Fair enough but you have said on another thread you want the social welfare system dismantled..and what then for the people getting laid off in ireland?

Also i'm not a fan of Labour but FG lack of back bone is worrying against the outright criminality of the FF party

RichardAnd

merlynthewizard wrote: »

Fair enough but you have said on another thread you want the social welfare system dismantled..and what then for the people getting laid off in ireland?

Also i'm not a fan of Labour but FG lack of back bone is worrying against the outright criminality of the FF party

That was a poor choice of words, if you go back to that thread, I've explained what I meant. For the record, I'm not some right wing nut case who thinks it's the fault of the person for being unemployed. My comment about the welfare state was how it is making people less responsible for their actions.

merlynthewizard

RichardAnd wrote: »

That was a poor choice of words, if you go back to that thread, I've explained what I meant. For the record, I'm not some right wing nut case who thinks it's the fault of the person for being unemployed. My comment about the welfare state was how it is making people less responsible for their actions.

I like the word 'responsibility' here..something the criminals of FF don't understand.
They need to be made accountable for their actions.

Dr. Baltar

In this country there has always been a choice between a centre right party getting into power or a centre-right party getting into power.
Personally, I'm not worried one bit seeing our civil war politics leaving us for good after almost a century.

We need to move forward, and stop flipping the same coin over and over again.

Stark

How I wish we had a centre-right party (well from an economic point of view anyway. Then we might have had fiscally responsible government, as opposed to a government whose spending policy resembled Principal Skinner's when Springfield Elementary struck oil.

RichardAnd

merlynthewizard wrote: »

I like the word 'responsibility' here..something the criminals of FF don't understand.
They need to be made accountable for their actions.

I dislike FF as much as anyone with half a brain but do not fool yourself into the comfortable assumption that FF are the root of Ireland's problem; they are merely a symptom.

Remember, FF got re-elected twice during the boom and they did this by giving people exactly what they wanted. Back in 2002, Bertie knew well there are a danger of recession so he fiddled with taxes and hey presto, bought us another 5 years of the "good times". Had he done the right thing and let what probably would have been a mild recession happen, he would probably have lost the election that year and whoever got in in his wake would have done precisely what he did do.

People blame FF and the bankers but this is just an empty expression. FF and many bankers played a part but so did millions of people who sat back and did nothing because the good times were in.

But hey, we're entitled to a house, big car(s), five holidays a year and no responsibility so who am I to say otherwise

fontanalis

Didn't the last labour financer minister balance the books?

Stark

Yes but I don't think the current Labour party incarnation shares Ruairi Quinn's views on responsible finance.

fontanalis

Stark wrote: »

Yes but I don't think the current Labour party incarnation shares Ruairi Quinn's views on responsible finance.

Well that is what needs to be found out. I find the thread title to be engaging in scare mongering, Bertie was a self declared socialist and they spent like a Republican President, tried to keep the unions/public service happy. So I'd say the danger has already happened, now it's more a danger of financial ignorance.

kowloon

It always annoys me when people use the Soviet Union as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Too much Fox News methinks.

phkk

Would be considered floating voter but definitely Gilmore's leadership appeals to me...if Cowen had any honour or respect for himself,family or his country, he would do the honourable thing and resign...


Did anybody see P.Time last night-it showed Bertie giving the quote twice "they should commit suicide.."-wonder how he feels now when he hears that again??

Eliot Rosewater

RichardAnd wrote: »

So I'm concerned, could the next election see us elect a dangerous amount of reds into power? Let's discuss but please, let's keep this mature, if you want to complain for the sake of it, call Joe Duffy.

In fairness RichardAnd, likening the Labour Party to the Soviet Union in a thread starter doesn't exactly make for "mature" discussion.

I think their economic policies could be poor for the economy, however we'll always have the option of leaving Ireland if we want.

Stark

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think their economic policies could be poor for the economy, however we'll always have the option of leaving Ireland if we want.

Not if the passport office workers are still on "work to rule".

ei.sdraob

Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

who needs responsibility when the core of socialism is all about spreading wealth around (or lack of) with the whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" mindset

I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them

merlynthewizard

Socialism is not the answer for anything but more importantly can we destroy FF and make it a crime against intelligence to even support them

Liam Byrne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

who needs responsibility when the core of socialism is all about spreading wealth around (or lack of) with the whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" mindset

I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them

I can see where you're coming from ei.sdraob, and it's one of the dangers of this period in Ireland's history.

If wealth gets spread around without responsibility or contributions, then there will be no wealth.

At the moment, people are watching their hard-earned cash get spread around to blatant capitalists and bankers, despite the fact that the millions that they earned during the boom didn't see its way into most pockets.

So a knee-jerk reaction is understandably to want it spread around more evenly.

The question is whether ethics and responsibility can register in Leinster House, and filter down, so that people will start believing that they're entitled to a certain amount as long as they contribute, and that anything extra that they work for won't be ripped away from them to pay expenses and golden handshakes for people who not only don't contribute to society, but actively take from it.

Until the Dáil imposes standards on its members, the average Joe is going to see them lining their pockets and those of their mates, and throw their hat at the whole concept of fair wage for fair work.

I know I always believed in that, and right now I'm barely able to control myself enough to keep that mindset.

ei.sdraob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from ei.sdraob, and it's one of the dangers of this period in Ireland's history.

If wealth gets spread around without responsibility or contributions, then there will be no wealth.

At the moment, people are watching their hard-earned cash get spread around to blatant capitalists and bankers, despite the fact that the millions that they earned during the boom didn't see its way into most pockets.

So a knee-jerk reaction is understandably to want it spread around more evenly.

The question is whether ethics and responsibility can register in Leinster House, and filter down, so that people will start believing that they're entitled to a certain amount as long as they contribute, and that anything extra that they work for won't be ripped away from them to pay expenses and golden handshakes for people who not only don't contribute to society, but actively take from it.

Until the Dáil imposes standards on its members, the average Joe is going to see them lining their pockets and those of their mates, and throw their hat at the whole concept of fair wage for fair work.

I know I always believed in that, and right now I'm barely able to control myself enough to keep that mindset.

How about not spreading around anything in first place and concentrate on policies that would lift all boats

as you know i am quite vocal on this forum about all sorts of **** being socialized, and not just the banks, thats not capitalism but "gombeenism" in a proper capitalist system failure is not rewarded

Count Dooku

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I for one welcome our new Labour overlords, the people deserve them

Labour will not extend agony and will ruin economy in few months by their concept of excessive taxes and massive redistribution of wealth to their supporters.
I don’t see better candidates for taking full responsibility of defaulting country.

Godge

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

In this country there has always been a choice between a centre right party getting into power or a centre-right party getting into power.
Personally, I'm not worried one bit seeing our civil war politics leaving us for good after almost a century.

We need to move forward, and stop flipping the same coin over and over again.

It has never been such a choice. Since 1977, 33 years ago, we have only about 6/7 years without Fianna Fail. We have had a populist party which has governed with a far-right party (PDs), a socialist party (Labour) and an environmental movement (Greens). As a result of this we have the most popular elements of each of them

- the lowest Corporation Tax in the old EU 15
- the highest old-age pension
- the most lax regulatory system for banks and financial operators
- the longest payment of one-parent allowance
- the best tax breaks for property purchase
- the highest paid public servants
- some of the highest environmental standards on paper
- the lowest environmental standards in reality because we don't enforce them


All of the above are wrong and there are loads more but they were born from FF's addiction to populism rather than any ideological approach.

danbohan

kowloon wrote: »

It always annoys me when people use the Soviet Union as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Too much Fox News methinks.

ok fair point , so tell us a country where it does work ?

George Orwell 1982

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Socialism and responsibility are two opposing concepts

I don't think so. Most mainstream left wing parties are in favour of a progressive taxation system, good public and social services, free healthcare and education, and employment creation so that you have equality of opportunity. If you have a two tier health and education system and enormous inequality of wealth in a society you get self perpetuating elites. Most socialist parties [the far left aside] just want a fairer society. France generally has been more socialist in its policies, so you have good free health and education for everyone, good public services etc, higher taxes on the very wealthy. Thats generally the direction most left wing parties want to go.

Creating greater equality of opportunity doesn't mean people have no responsiblity. The number of people who want to sit on the dole is actually, I suspect, quite low. And left wing parties don't want to encourage that practice - they want to create jobs. You may argue with their job creation strategies, nevertheless, they do want to create jobs.

ei.sdraob

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

I don't think so. Most mainstream left wing parties are in favour of a progressive taxation system, good public and social services, free healthcare and education, and employment creation so that you have equality of opportunity. If you have a two tier health and education system and enormous inequality of wealth in a society you get self perpetuating elites. Most socialist parties [the far left aside] just want a fairer society. France generally has been more socialist in its policies, so you have good free health and education for everyone, good public services etc, higher taxes on the very wealthy. Thats generally the direction most left wing parties want to go.

Creating greater equality of opportunity doesn't mean people have no responsiblity. The number of people who want to sit on the dole is actually, I suspect, quite low. And left wing parties don't want to encourage that practice - they want to create jobs. You may argue with their job creation strategies, nevertheless, they do want to create jobs.

So please enlighten us how will socialist parties go about "creating jobs" with a 20 billion a year deficit

let me guess by taxing the remaining people and companies that have jobs putting them under greater strain and risk
in order to pay for ones that dont

merlynthewizard

I agree the going with Labour will be the death of Ireland but we are almost dead anyway thanks to FF.

When need FF TD's locked up for what they have done to give us that believe that we have a future in Ireland and the crims will not destroy the place.

silverharp

on the plus side, anyone with a mortgage can work out pretty quickly that labour means higher taxes, A labour TD J. Tuffy wrote on a blog last year a comment to the effect if "how much money does an individual need"
in the minds of many voters, voting labour would be like turkeys voting for xmas

Liam Byrne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How about not spreading around anything in first place and concentrate on policies that would lift all boats

as you know i am quite vocal on this forum about all sorts of **** being socialized, and not just the banks, thats not capitalism but "gombeenism" in a proper capitalist system failure is not rewarded

I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.

Balmed Out

left wing parties dont help create jobs in the private sector. They increase taxes on business and higher earners, reducing business's ability to grow and complete and reducing the incentive of those who may be in a position to employ to try to earn more. The only jobs left wing parties create are in the civil service. A labour government would be (and as a person whos never voted or supported ff this is hard for me to say)far worse then the continuation of the ff government.

dromdrom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.

Why are we uncompetitive?- High wage levels , we have one of the highest paid public servants in the world and labour want to reverse their pay cuts and pay for this with with efficiency savings , one of which is an examination of pension reliefs (which of course my public sector brethren do not have to avail of), i.e increase the tax paid by the private sector to maintain the benefits of their support base. It always amuses me to see the lunatic left on boards harp on about the Greedy Capitalists and Evil developers who have ruined our country and point to labour as some answer to this, all they are is another cabal looking to get into power and divvy up the national purse to their own.

CrackisWhack

danbohan wrote: »

ok fair point , so tell us a country where it does work ?

Scandinavian countries?

CrackisWhack

I think people may be going a bit over the top as to how far left Labour are! Personally i think Irish politics needs a bit more of a social conscience, especially after the current shower of ****

ei.sdraob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree (provided it's proper contributions that are rewarded, and not gambling and speculating that affects others).

But the fact is that given the choice between what FF have done and socialism, I'd prefer socialism, particularly when "failure" is not people's own fault, but because they have made Ireland so uncompetitive and have made it impossible for small companies and people who simply want to work to earn a living to get by.

I am someone who works, likes to work and runs a small business

The very last thing I want and/or need is even more taxes to be "redistributed" from me by socialists, the last decade of FF playing the populist card is bad enough

FF might call themselves center right but their economic policies have been leftie as history have shown, pondering and pleasing all sorts of interests groups (like unions and developers) at the expense of the economy

Labour have not come up with a credible economic policy and are playing the populist string, and their leaders can not answer a question straight

they are nothing more than Fianna Fail reinvented

no thanks

i dont want more of the same ****e under a different banner

CrackisWhack

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I am someone who works, likes to work and runs a small business

The very last thing I want and/or need is even more taxes to be "redistributed" from me by socialists, the last decade of FF playing the populist card is bad enough

FF might call themselves center right but their economic policies have been leftie as history have shown, pondering and pleasing all sorts of interests groups (like unions and developers) at the expense of the economy

Labour have not come up with a credible economic policy and are playing the populist string, and their leaders can not answer a question straight

they are nothing more than Fianna Fail reinvented

no thanks

i dont want more of the same ****e under a different banner

Well no wonder Labour don't appeal to you! unfortunately for you they do appeal to a large % of voters.

zielarz

If people don't like Soviet Union example I'm suggesting another one - Greece. It's a yet another example what a socialist government can achieve by overspending. People have to understand that things like banks bail outs are socialistic practices. In (real) capitalism you let the poorly run companies fail, you don't nationalise them.

CrackisWhack

zielarz wrote: »

If people don't like Soviet Union example I'm suggesting another one - Greece. It's a yet another example what a socialist government can achieve by overspending. People have to understand that things like banks bail outs are socialistic practices. In (real) capitalism you let the poorly run companies fail, you don't nationalise them.

Like the USA? bail out of banks, GM...etc.?

Count Dooku

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Scandinavian countries?

Scandinavian model will not work in ireland, because
1) Scandinavian countries have own industry , while Ireland fully rely on selling Irish workforce to MNC’s for low taxes. Without own capitalists Ireland never could use Scandinavian socialism.
2) Scandinavian countries don’t have overpaid public sector and average in public sector is lower then in private, while in Ireland most of collected taxes used to “keep living standards of public servants”, while in Scandinavian countries taxes used to provide services for taxpayers first.

zielarz

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Like the USA? bail out of banks, GM...etc.?

Correct, USA is in a deep socialism. In capitalism you let companies compete with each other on a free market, you don't use taxpayers money to subsidize them. States used to be a true country of freedom about 100 years ago.

CrackisWhack

I would have thought the USA was the most capitalist country in the world? They let plenty of business' go down the drain, although selectively saved a some too(nothing to do with corruption)

ei.sdraob

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Well no wonder Labour don't appeal to you! unfortunately for you they do appeal to a large % of voters.

Fianna Fail also appealed to a large percentage of voters by using the same tactics

look where we are now because of that

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I am someone who works, likes to work and runs a small business

The very last thing I want and/or need is even more taxes to be "redistributed" from me by socialists, the last decade of FF playing the populist card is bad enough

As a business owner, what taxes do you pay?

Hint: Do not include VAT or Employee PAYE returns.

Figures please!
:pac:

Correct me if I am wrong but the 2009 tax receipts (€33 billion) are approximated as follows:

36% PAYE
32% VAT
14% Excise
12% Corporation Tax
6% Miscellaneous: CAT,CGT,Customs, Stamp Duty.

It is rather obvious that Corporation Tax - the business tax- is a small part of Irish tax revenue even allowing for Multinational's transfer pricing activities.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

As a business owner, what taxes do you pay?

Hint: Do not include VAT or Employee PAYE returns.

Figures please!
:pac:

Correct me if I am wrong but the 2009 tax receipts (€33 billion) are approximated as follows:

36% PAYE
32% VAT
14% Excise
12% Corporation Tax
6% Miscellaneous: CAT,CGT,Customs, Stamp Duty.

It is rather obvious that Corporation Tax - the business tax- is a small part of Irish tax revenue even allowing for Multinational's transfer pricing activities.

why not include them?

a tax is a tax, money leaving the company, money that could be spend on growing the company and creating jobs, and there are countries where you dont have to pay these or as high

im the main employee of the company, not only do i have to pay income taxes (and get greatly reduced tax credits for being a director) as everyone else, the company also has to pay taxes from corpo tax, vat, employee tax to all sorts of surcharges

sometimes i ask myself, why ****ing bother? (and that my friend is the real danger of socialism, it kills free enterprise, and stagnation ensues)

why should the state be the one taxing to create jobs (they are very good at that arent they?) instead of leaving the companies alone to pursue profit and in the process create NEEDED jobs

Taxipete29

zielarz wrote: »

If people don't like Soviet Union example I'm suggesting another one - Greece. It's a yet another example what a socialist government can achieve by overspending. People have to understand that things like banks bail outs are socialistic practices. In (real) capitalism you let the poorly run companies fail, you don't nationalise them.

Bank bailouts have nothing to do with Socialism.

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Bank bailouts have nothing to do with Socialism.

Really? its redistribution of wealth aint it, socializing the risks onto the taxpayers and all that

in a proper capitalist system these would have been allowed to fail for their mistakes, and new companies step into the void, and everyone learns a lesson and is more cautious next time

Count Dooku

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Bank bailouts have nothing to do with Socialism.

In this case Sweden is not socialist country

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why not include them?

Because it is you duty to make VAT and PAYE returns. These taxes are not yours to keep.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

a tax is a tax, money leaving the company, money that could be spend on growing the company and creating jobs, and there are countries where you dont have to pay these or as high

It doesn't take much to see that you hate being tax compliant. You are a typical private enterprise bulldog.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Because it is you duty to make VAT and PAYE returns. These taxes are not yours to keep.

so you admit, it is a tax

im still puzzled why you think businesses will not call these taxes, taxes

oh i forgot, duty :rolleyes:

what happens when the business moves shop to another country where it has to pay less "duties" :rolleyes:

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

It doesn't take much to see that you hate being tax compliant. You are a typical private enterprise bulldog.

Waffle Waffle

you entirely missed the point of my post in the context of the thread

I believe that companies are much better at creating jobs when left to their own devices of you know running a business
than the .... .... state who utterly incompetent and dont know anything about job creation

how many of the members of the Labour party ever run a business? or the current government for that matter

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Really? its redistribution of wealth aint it, socializing the risks onto the taxpayers and all that

in a proper capitalist system these would have been allowed to fail for their mistakes, and new companies step into the void, and everyone learns a lesson and is more cautious next time

has

And in a proper socialist system this situation would never of arisen. See I can do it too.

Companies making huge profits and dividing it amoungst its shareholders is also a type of redistribution of wealth. It has nothing to do with socialism however.

Liberals call the bailouts socialism to scare the masses into believing that this would be their future under a socialist Govt. They neglect to tell people however that many of them would be left on the scrap-heap under their proposed liberal system.

Liberalism is little more than " The Law of the Jungle", only the tigers dont wear stripes they wear Armani

meditraitor

Taxipete29 wrote: »

has


Liberalism is little more than " The Law of the Jungle", only the tigers dont wear stripes they wear Armani

+1

Count Dooku

Taxipete29 wrote: »

And in a proper socialist system this situation would never of arisen.

Proper socialist system sounds like spherical horse in vacuum.
Something pure theoretical, which never existed before and never will exist in future

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so you admit, it is a tax

im still puzzled why you think businesses will not call these taxes, taxes

oh i forgot, duty :rolleyes:

what happens when the business moves shop to another country where it has to pay less "duties" :rolleyes:

Yes, VAT and employee PAYE are taxes alright but they have been paid by other people: VAT paid by those who you sell goods or provide a service to and employee PAYE is paid by employees out of their wages; VAT and PAYE are not taxes on your business profits.

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Waffle Waffle

you entirely missed the point of my post in the context of the thread

I believe that companies are much better at creating jobs when left to their own devices of you know running a business
than the .... .... state who utterly incompetent and dont know anything about job creation

how many of the members of the Labour party ever run a business? or the current government for that matter

You are now telling us that Private Enterprise exists to create jobs and I mistakenly thought that it only exists to create profits for it's owners.

Private Enterprise only creates jobs when it wants to increase profits from the utilisation of labour and for no other reason.

Flex

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so you admit, it is a tax

im still puzzled why you think businesses will not call these taxes, taxes

oh i forgot, duty :rolleyes:

what happens when the business moves shop to another country where it has to pay less "duties" :rolleyes:





Waffle Waffle

you entirely missed the point of my post in the context of the thread

I believe that companies are much better at creating jobs when left to their own devices of you know running a business
than the .... .... state who utterly incompetent and dont know anything about job creation

how many of the members of the Labour party ever run a business? or the current government for that matter

ei.sdraob, I really sympathise with you. Ireland needs more native enterprising people like yourself to create indiginous industry and business. You took the risks of being an entrepreneur and investing in your business and the hard work it takes to establish and run it and rather than being supported youre just being attacked by clowns who, due to a lack of ambition, unwillingness to put in the hard work or cowardice in the face of potential failure or whatever, couldnt create their own business. Nevermind the fact it would benefit the country to have your business succeed and grow so you could employ more people who would in turn pay more tax and generate revenue for the economy, youre an entrepreneur/business owner and therefore a fat-cat capitalist who's only goal is to cook the books and make slaves out of the poor working man. Its more important to impede you so we can continue paying for the world class public services and modest social welfare benefits we have here in Ireland :rolleyes: