Playing off Scratch now compared to 30 years ago

madds

Had an interesting discussion with my Jimmy Bruen partner last night on the way home from Margaret's. He managed to get down to scratch 30 odd years ago and commented that very few of the current crop of +2, +1, or scratch guys would have been as low under the old system.

He explained that under the old system (not sure what this old system was called but it was replaced by the Australian CONGU handicap system) that in order for anyone playing off 1 to get to scratch they had to present 8 scores beating the SS, 5 of which had to be done away from your home course.

He may have omitted one or two details or it may be a case of the "sure we used to walk 10 miles to school in our bare feet" syndrome but just thought someone here may be able to confirm.

Mister Sifter

I'd imagine there weren't as many competitions back then either. These days a player can play in 3-4 events a week if he chooses. Surely that also would aid the process?

I'm not convinced about your man's argument though. It's like when you hear an old footballer from the 60s saying 'they couldn't have played in our time'...

madds

I asked about the number of events they played and he replied that there were sometimes two Senior Scratches on each weekend, and always one. He said he could go a couple of weeks without playing his home course but still have played half a dozen times "on the circuit" as he called it. Mullingar was the big one back then as it remains today.

Par72

One thing I remember from the old handicap system was that you couldn't get shots back though. Shots were only given back at the end of the year if the average of something like your three best cards was over your current handicap. It's so easy to get point one's back now that it is very hard to maintain a low handicap.

Only one Keano

Funny, I had a similar conversation with a lad in our club last night as I got down to scratch for first time last week. He made an interesting point that he either read or heard from Ronan Rafferty that when he was turning pro there were only a handful of players scratch or better where nowadays it is ten a penny.

Personally, I think its a combination of things. We have a lot more younger players now where there is more depth in talent & with access to a lot more technology, mind coaches, sport science knowledge which has helped produced better players etc...... The new technology makes it easier but then again the courses play much harder now with more slopes, faster greens and with them in general being more mature. It is quite probabe that it was harder to get cut but I suppose we will never know!!!!!!!!

Woodgate

I think equipment and course condition are a big factor now aswell. 30 years ago they had wooden drivers with small heads, steel shafts, etc... and courses weren't the high standard most are now. I think the modern player would struggle to get used to using the old gear and struggle with it's limitations.

soundsham

Par72 wrote: »

One thing I remember from the old handicap system was that you couldn't get shots back though. Shots were only given back at the end of the year if the average of something like your three best cards was over your current handicap. It's so easy to get point one's back now that it is very hard to maintain a low handicap.

*snap

is it not the case that the auld memory is often telling the older guy that he was a better player than the present players...........

I think thats true in all sports guys have a clouded recollection of so called better days

did he have a younger brother that could have went pro only he had to take a job somewhere to support the family or became fond of the drink;)

Russman

There's probably some degree of truth in what he was saying. And its probably a combination of all or most of the factors mentioned above in the posts, including an element of rose tinted glasses. Equipment would be a huge factor, anyone who's old enough to have played balatas, blades and persimmon (I'm just about old enough to remember ) will swear that the modern clubs make it so much easier.

Golf World did an interesting article a year or two ago on the very same subject and showed the stats for all the "Home" Unions and for some reason, in Ireland particularly, the number of players at scratch or better had jumped massively in the last 20 years.

I think its probably fair to say that scratch back then was a lot more impressive than scratch now in terms of the ability as a golfer. As someone said earlier, scratch players are ten a penny nowadays, and in my humble opinion, a fairly big percentage of them aren't really scratch golfers in sofar as they would never in a million years shoot level par on average over a period of time. Then again, maybe our perception of what your handicap means has changed ? Is it fair to expect a scratch man to generally shoot around level par (not being sarcastic, genuine question) ? Sure you just have to look at the scores in the Championships, half the field in the 80s or 90s most of the time, when the cut for entry was probably around 1.0. The change in the handicap systems undoubtedly has affected things also but I think its a great topic for discssion, I'd love to read other opinions to see what the feeling is !

Speak Now

Of course there's more scratch players now but how many GUI members now are there compared to back then. I'm sure there's more playing off every handicap :rolleyes: Really you'd need to see percentages not just numbers.

Russman

+1
Fair point

mike12

Only one Keano wrote: »

Funny, I had a similar conversation with a lad in our club last night as I got down to scratch for first time last week. He made an interesting point that he either read or heard from Ronan Rafferty that when he was turning pro there were only a handful of players scratch or better where nowadays it is ten a penny.

Personally, I think its a combination of things. We have a lot more younger players now where there is more depth in talent & with access to a lot more technology, mind coaches, sport science knowledge which has helped produced better players etc...... The new technology makes it easier but then again the courses play much harder now with more slopes, faster greens and with them in general being more mature. It is quite probabe that it was harder to get cut but I suppose we will never know!!!!!!!!

I think when rafferty and walton turned pro they were the only 2 golfers in the country on +2 now almost every club has one and +4/5 seems to be the mark u have to hit to think about turning pro.
Mike

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

... in my humble opinion, a fairly big percentage of them aren't really scratch golfers in sofar as they would never in a million years shoot level par on average over a period of time. Then again, maybe our perception of what your handicap means has changed ? Is it fair to expect a scratch man to generally shoot around level par (not being sarcastic, genuine question) ?

Under CONGU you are not supposed to be playing to your handicap everytime, rather 1/7 times or so.
However you are supposed to be hitting your bufferzone.

In the past you got shots back at the end of the month, rather than immediately.

Par72

GreeBo wrote: »

In the past you got shots back at the end of the month, rather than immediately.

That's only in the recent past. When I started playing golf (18 yrs ago) you could only get shots back at the end of the year.

L.O.F.T

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

Of course there's more scratch players now but how many GUI members now are there compared to back then. I'm sure there's more playing off every handicap :rolleyes: Really you'd need to see percentages not just numbers.

I couldn't find a more recent example of the breakdown that I read recently but here is an interesting insight into the 2005 breakdown with the Category 1 division players not being as common as people think. Again its not recent but an insight nevertheless

Seamus Smith, General Secretary of the GUI explains in 2005:
The latest figures available show that GUI Category 1 (5 or better) has 6,913 golfers, of which just 147 play off 0.1 to plus-handicap figures. Category 2 (6-12) has 31,227.

Overall, the majority of club members play their game in the Category 3 (13-20) zone which has 87,353 - or to put it simpler, 87,352 and me! Category 4 (21-28) has 31,370.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/top-of-the-pyramid-278578.html

Sandwlch

Russman wrote: »

a fairly big percentage of them aren't really scratch golfers in sofar as they would never in a million years shoot level par on average over a period of time. Then again, maybe our perception of what your handicap means has changed ? Is it fair to expect a scratch man to generally shoot around level par (not being sarcastic, genuine question) ?

Correct guessing on most points.

Our perception has changed. The CONGU handicap system is not designed to reflect your average score. It is designed to reflect your 'almost' best score. You should beat your handicap no more than 1 in 5 times at scratch level, and average approx 2 over scratch over time

The old system generally aimed for the 'average' score idea, and while imperfect in its application, would generally have had handicaps 2 shots higher than todays one for a scratch level golfer. So discussion of OP's partner is correct also.


BTW this effect is more marked for higher handicappers - a fact misunderstood by many bandits out there who think they should always be shooting net par/36pts or better. Cat 4 golfer should average 7 shots over scratch!!! Combine these two elements and the bandit feels perfectly justified in his manipulation. He has lots of scope for easy and significant manipulation - and doesnt see himself as a bandit at all.

G1032

Russman wrote: »

There's probably some degree of truth in what he was saying. And its probably a combination of all or most of the factors mentioned above in the posts, including an element of rose tinted glasses. Equipment would be a huge factor, anyone who's old enough to have played balatas, blades and persimmon (I'm just about old enough to remember ) will swear that the modern clubs make it so much easier.

I often wondered how much of a difference the equipment makes for these guys? I'd imagine that someone who plays of scratch or better will almost always hit the shot from the sweet spot of the clubhead.
So do the more forgiving clubs make much difference? They are as likely to hit the sweetspot with a blade as with a cavity back.
Also the length of our courses has increased and this increase in length will counteract the length one gains from new technology.....
Can any of you scratch or better players confirm or rubbish my theory?

Russman

Could be a bit of a chicken and egg situation, does the bigger sweetspot on todays clubs mean more people will hit it out of the middle and, possibly, get to scratch ? or would the player who'll get to scratch anyway not really notice the difference ?
Personally I think the modern equipment makes it easier for someone's ball striking to enable them to get down, but only if they have a short game

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Could be a bit of a chicken and egg situation, does the bigger sweetspot on todays clubs mean more people will hit it out of the middle and, possibly, get to scratch ? or would the player who'll get to scratch anyway not really notice the difference ?
Personally I think the modern equipment makes it easier for someone's ball striking to enable them to get down, but only if they have a short game

The more forgiving clubs do work for everyone.
As a scratch golfer you are probably going to be hitting on or near the sweetspot 90% of the time, if, for those other 10% of shots you are only losing a couple of yards then its no biggie, if you were losing 20 yards and dont have any handicap to get you out of trouble then its a big deal.