2nd Republic within sight?

Citizen_Cutback

If it is OK to socialise the debt run up by the Banking/Building boom-bust why not let the Socialist Parties run the country? They couldn't do any worse!

This seems to be the thinking of the electorate at the moment.

The Labour Party stood aside during the formation of this State in 1919; Now it's time they stepped up to the plate.

What are the chances that Labour, Sinn Fein and Joe Higgins' Socialist Party getting an overall majority in the next Election?

I think the average Joe is quite afraid of the young guns in Fine Gael, especially Varadkar; He is too right wing by half in the current circumstances.

Fuhrer

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

They couldn't do any worse!

Really?

Offy

Its not my thinking.

Liam Byrne

While I've started to think that socialism would be a lot less destructive than the rampant greedy capitalism that we've had for the past 10 years, I would have concerns about most of Ireland's "left" parties.

Labour : are too tied to the unions to be left in power alone....although to be fair, I might re-think that when you consider that it was Ahern's shower that implemented the ridiculous benchmarking

SF : well, I've made my views known on them before, and they're the only party that give FF a run for their money in the "feck that I'm outa here" stakes should they get into power

I don't know enough about "Joe Higgins' Socialist Party", but if a party has someone's name in the title in order to refer to it, then I'd be worried, because there's echoes there of "Bertie's Team", and look where that got us.

meditraitor

Its time someone other than FG or FF took control of this country, but I doubt(sadly) the Poll will be reflected in the next election.
FF/FG are just too good at the mud slinging ethically lacking side of modern irish politics to let Labour get a foot in.
Just look at the pro FF/FG poster here, same old rhethoric as their handlers, "labour in bed with unions, Labour no policies, labour eat children....."
The dung they spew gets swallowed because they articulate it well, look behind it and its obvious vacuous nonsense from civil war politic family members that has them brainwashed.....

None of them has a clue otherwise they wouldnt have swallowed FG/FF nonsense,

may not be true:D

2c

Liam Byrne

meditraitor wrote: »

FF/FG are just too good at the mud slinging.....

meditraitor wrote: »

Just look at the pro FF/FG poster here, same old rhethoric as their handlers,

Apparently you're not adverse to having a go at the aul' mud-slinging yourself!

I'm not "pro FF" by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm currently considering FG or Labour or Independent, so I'm not "pro FG" either.

And I've never had "a handler".

meditraitor wrote: »

look behind it and its obvious vacuous nonsense from civil war politic family members that has them brainwashed.....

LMAO. Civil war politic family members were never a feature in this family, and never will be. So that's a "talking through your arse" style comment, quite frankly.

meditraitor wrote: »

may not be true:D

Almost missed that because you'd practically hidden it in yellow. I can tell you for a fact that that statement itself is the only true one in your post.

Sulmac

I don't see why not, sure aren't the French on their Fifth Republic now.

Banned Account

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Joe Higgins' Socialist Party.

People who don't work, won't know much about job creation.

T runner

I would think a new constitution/republic should be on the cards at this stage.

We need to have a look at the political structures in place.

I believe important positions like minister for Finance should be chosen from expert fields and not from TDs.

This would mean relieving senior civil servants of power.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

why not let the Socialist Parties run the country? They couldn't do any worse!

Soviet Socialistic Republic of Ireland



what could possibly go wrong...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

meditraitor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Apparently you're not adverse to having a go at the aul' mud-slinging yourself!

I'm not "pro FF" by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm currently considering FG or Labour or Independent, so I'm not "pro FG" either..

I get all that from your posts, what I dont get is why you think what I posted refers to you?

Apart from your brief flirtation with FG you come across as quite an open minded guy,

The point I was trying to make (badly again) was FG and FF have had their wicked way with our lovely country for 80 odd years and here we are with what is possibly 50 years of debt to burden the next generation with because of FF and to a lesser extent FG.

I throw FG in because as majority opposition (have been for 80 years) they should have put up a better fight to stop the craziness.......

We can all dream of a country with an ethical government but one thing that cannot be denied is that neither of these partys have or can provide it in all the years of power.......

danbohan

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

If it is OK to socialise the debt run up by the Banking/Building boom-bust why not let the Socialist Parties run the country? They couldn't do any worse!

This seems to be the thinking of the electorate at the moment.

The Labour Party stood aside during the formation of this State in 1919; Now it's time they stepped up to the plate.

What are the chances that Labour, Sinn Fein and Joe Higgins' Socialist Party getting an overall majority in the next Election?

I think the average Joe is quite afraid of the young guns in Fine Gael, especially Varadkar; He is too right wing by half in the current circumstances.[/QU






yes that's exactly what this country needs , bring it on , will you ring the IMF or will i?

Liam Byrne

meditraitor wrote: »

I get all that from your posts, what I dont get is why you think what I posted refers to you?

Because aside from the OP I was the only possible target in this thread for the reference "Just look at the pro FF/FG poster here" ?

meditraitor wrote: »

Just look at the pro FF/FG poster here, same old rhethoric as their handlers,

Sincere apologies if that "poster" was meant to be plural and "here" was meant to refer to boards in general, rather than this thread !

Fr Tod Umptious

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Soviet Socialistic Republic of Ireland



what could possibly go wrong...

It was tried before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Soviet

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

aidan24326

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

What are the chances that Labour, Sinn Fein and Joe Higgins' Socialist Party getting an overall majority in the next Election?

Whatever about Labour and The Joe Higgins crowd, I hope I'm not alone in not wanting SF anywhere near government.

Mactíre

It seems to me that what we are really missing is a government, whatever their political persuasion, that is accountable. For far too long the government has protected incompetent and corrupt politicians. We have had tribunals where we should have had criminal trials, we have had a Taoiseach who did not have a tax clearance cert and we now have a government who has impoverished the country for generations to come in order to save a bank that was the epitome of corruption and incompetence. They have lined their own pockets and protected their cronies at the expense of the weakest and most vulnerable members of our society. We should remember that today’s pensioners are the very people who paid the insane taxes and interest rates of the 1970’s and 80’s and now our government is making them pay again. Whatever this country is going to do to save itself it better be quick.

Stark

Brian Dobson: "So do you support the Croke Park agreement or not?"
Eamonn Gilmore: "Well, well I agree that it's an agreement".

Sums them up in my opinion, not willing to take a stance on anything unless it's obviously populist.

Coillte_Bhoy

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's a ridiculous thing to say in all fairness. So Labour has nothing to say on the minimum wage, the low paid, the non unionised, ?????

thebigcheese22

T runner wrote: »

I would think a new constitution/republic should be on the cards at this stage.

We need to have a look at the political structures in place.

I believe important positions like minister for Finance should be chosen from expert fields and not from TDs.

This would mean relieving senior civil servants of power.

That's why Eamon Gilmore has said that once in power, Labour will initiate a Constitutional Forum which will draw a new updated, modern constitution for the 21st century, one in which all facets of society will take part in drawing up, rather than the theocracy which was put in place by DeV when he caved in to the Catholic Church in 1937.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

In fairness, Greece's Socialist government inherited the fiscal mess as they were only elected last year and it was the previous right-wing government that burned the books. Not really aware of the situation with the other countries so can't really comment on them. Of course it would be my opinion that the neo-liberal no-holds-barred economic theory caused this global recession rather than socialist governments in a few European countries, but I'm sure a few will disagree with that

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have to say I have never, ever heard anyone in Labour say anything remotely like that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah.....so you've got a crystal ball, then ?

Must come in handy when you're gambling on people's livelihoods with all that money......

You said that "Labour has nothing to say but [that]".

Which means that if your prediction is wrong, you're wrong. And it also means that if they say anything else, you're wrong.

That's a lot of trust in that crystal ball! :rolleyes:

thebigcheese22

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While I think this may be a bit of a throwaway comment, it does raise an interesting question. At the moment Labour aren't exactly pushing economically coherent policies; that is, I can't see the tax take they propose coming anywhere near the spending. So there is this giant blackhole that no one can really explain. The only logical explanation I can think of is higher taxes which will hurt the economy.

Saying that, I do think Labour will support any private sector unionized workers, even if they are above minimum wage. Part of Gilmore's tactic is to court both sides. By not coming out strongly against the public sector pay cuts, he still wins the votes of the public service. By not coming out strongly in favour the public sector pay cuts, he wins the votes of the private sector.

Votes are like little helium balloons floating in the air. The best way to catch them is to stand as high as you can, and that fence is so awfully high.

Killer Pigeon

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

The Labour Party stood aside during the formation of this State in 1919;

Neither did the Green Party ...

Killer Pigeon

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPHdk6WgbUg

Donegal eh?

thebigcheese22

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

While I think this may be a bit of a throwaway comment, it does raise an interesting question. At the moment Labour aren't exactly pushing economically coherent policies; that is, I can't see the tax take they propose coming anywhere near the spending. So there is this giant blackhole that no one can really explain. The only logical explanation I can think of is higher taxes which will hurt the economy.

Saying that, I do think Labour will support any private sector unionized workers, even if they are above minimum wage. Part of Gilmore's tactic is to court both sides. By not coming out strongly against the public sector pay cuts, he still wins the votes of the public service. By not coming out strongly in favour the public sector pay cuts, he wins the votes of the private sector.

Votes are like little helium balloons floating in the air. The best way to catch them is to stand as high as you can, and that fence is so awfully high.

If you'd take the time to look, there are in fact a great deal of coherent policies coming from the Labour Party at http://www.labour.ie/policy/ and they gave a fully costed Budget proposal which can be found here http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/budgetpowerpoint.pdf. Please give it a read before blindly dismissing Labour's policies. They actually proposed greater savings of 5 billion euro, which would also be more equitable than the hatchet job that FF has done. Out of this, 1 billion would be spent on a jobs saving scheme - because jobs are the only way we'll get out of this recession.

PomBear

aidan24326 wrote: »

Whatever about Labour and The Joe Higgins crowd, I hope I'm not alone in not wanting SF anywhere near government.

Yawn.. another 'I don't SF with no specific reason post'

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

GarlicBread

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The markets, the god of the right wing economists. If we dont vote this way the markets will say we are bold. If we dont do this the markets will be angry and will shoot lightning bolts at us. IMO come off it. If we vote in a labour government the markets can get on their knees and suck our socialist balls and that will be the end of it.

We are going to default anyway, a labour/left wing government is needed to cushion the blow otherwise it would be a slash and slaughter fest.
.
Theres also alot of very serious social issues which need to be dealt with and FF / FG are not ever going to bother fixing anything.

dromdrom

GarlicBread wrote: »

The markets, the god of the right wing economists. If we dont vote this way the markets will say we are bold. If we dont do this the markets will be angry and will shoot lightning bolts at us. IMO come off it. If we vote in a labour government the markets can get on their knees and suck our socialist balls and that will be the end of it.

We are going to default anyway, a labour/left wing government is needed to cushion the blow otherwise it would be a slash and slaughter fest.
.
Theres also alot of very serious social issues which need to be dealt with and FF / FG are not ever going to bother fixing anything.

That all sounds great but if we default what are Labour going to use to cushion the blow with? Current expenditure will have to be met with current revenue do the Math. Perhaps instead of saying that we are going to default anyway so lets elect a "tax and spend" party and make the best of it while we can we should be making our voices heard to our political class that we want Fiscal responsibility to avoid us defaulting and settign this country back a couple of decades. That probably doesn't sound as nice the sweeping populist statement above but might be better than the "let the markets suck our balls approach".

piby

Well I think one reality is that while Labour may be a resonably 'big' party neither SF or the Socialist Party are big enough to suddenly enter government. Even with Labour at the helm would those three parties combined have enough of a majority to form a government? Further SF and the Socialists haven't really got many candidates in their ranks who have served in high level positions. It may be well and good making points in the Dail or in public but it would be a serious leap to go from that to being a TD, let alone serving a cabinet position. I was FF once upon a time but I find myself heading Labour or even Socialist at the moment (want to read up on their policies a bit though) so it might sound weird that I'm saying this. I feel, however, that FF and FG are so dominant at the moment that another government would not survive without one of them and their experience. I want to see a move away from the two-party politics we have but I don't think the other parties are quite ready.

halkar

We need complete replacement of Dail sleepers. Sick of looking at same faces in there last 10-15 years. Replace all with sexy guys and chicks.
We are fecked anyways, at least we have something nice to look at

meditraitor

halkar wrote: »

We need complete replacement of Dail sleepers. Sick of looking at same faces in there last 10-15 years. Replace all with sexy guys and chicks. We are fecked anyways, at least we have something nice to look at

That mad fecker berlusconi is trying it in Italy, give it a year and we will see if it works;)

Eliot Rosewater

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

If you'd take the time to look, there are in fact a great deal of coherent policies coming from the Labour Party at http://www.labour.ie/policy/ and they gave a fully costed Budget proposal which can be found here http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/budgetpowerpoint.pdf.

Among the things I notice are

• A tax increase on high earners which will drive out job creators.
• Reinstatement of the social welfare Christmas bonus, even though social welfare is supposed to be just a safety net.
• "Preserve social welfare rates", even though the cost of living has gone down. It's hardly fair that the purchasing power of social welfare recipients has gone up in a recession.

Does €5 billion go far enough? The budget deficit this year is, what, €27 billion?

The main critique I have of the policy is that it operates under the presumption that the dramatic increases in social welfare and public sector pay during the boom were justified. I think the scale of the economic readjustment needed is far greater than Labour admits.

Chuchoter

Although I'm not too sure about socialism...mainly because its never worked before, I think if they got in in some form of coalition it would be like the greens. They'd be all ideals and get nothing done. But really why not? as far as I can see all the parties are crap. I think halkar has the right idea. :P

Iwasfrozen

PomBear wrote: »

Yawn.. another 'I don't SF with no specific reason post'

One doesn't need a reason to not vote for someone but here are mine.

1.) I don't want terrorists in Government.
2.) I don't want a socialist party in Government.
3.) I don't want a nationalist government in party.
4.) This isn't really a point but Stalin was a socialist and nationalist... Think about it.
5.) I don't want a government in power that is obsessed with shoving the Irish language unwillingly down my or my future childrens throats.

Good enough reasons for you?

Glenshane Pass

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One doesn't need a reason to not vote for someone but here are mine.

1.) I don't want terrorists in Government.
2.) I don't want a socialist party in Government.
3.) I don't want a nationalist government in party.
4.) This isn't really a point but Stalin was a socialist and nationalist... Think about it.
5.) I don't want a government in power that is obsessed with shoving the Irish language unwillingly down my or my future childrens throats.

Good enough reasons for you?

Would love to see what your reasons are for such fanatic opposition to the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Would love to see what your reasons are for such fanatic opposition to the Irish language.

Because I don't speak it. I would have the same problem with a political party trying to shove any language unwillingly down my or my future childrens throats.

Glenshane Pass

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because I don't speak it. I would have the same problem with a political party trying to shove any language unwillingly down my or my future childrens throats.

I guess that includes English? I've seen enough of your vision for Ireland thanks!

Iwasfrozen

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

I guess that includes English? I've seen enough of your vision for Ireland thanks!

1.) No it doesn't include english. I speak english.
2.) No party is forcing english on me unwillingly.
3.) What vision? I said I would never vote SF and gave reasons why. I never outlined any vision.

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Among the things I notice are

• A tax increase on high earners which will drive out job creators.
• Reinstatement of the social welfare Christmas bonus, even though social welfare is supposed to be just a safety net.
• "Preserve social welfare rates", even though the cost of living has gone down. It's hardly fair that the purchasing power of social welfare recipients has gone up in a recession.

Does €5 billion go far enough? The budget deficit this year is, what, €27 billion?

The main critique I have of the policy is that it operates under the presumption that the dramatic increases in social welfare and public sector pay during the boom were justified. I think the scale of the economic readjustment needed is far greater than Labour admits.

For the love of god, keep Joan Burton away from Finance.

twitch1984

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One doesn't need a reason to not vote for someone but here are mine.

1.) I don't want terrorists in Government.
2.) I don't want a socialist party in Government.
3.) I don't want a nationalist government in party.
4.) This isn't really a point but Stalin was a socialist and nationalist... Think about it.
5.) I don't want a government in power that is obsessed with shoving the Irish language unwillingly down my or my future childrens throats.

Good enough reasons for you?

Is'nt a nationalist the same thing as a republican? Ie Fianna fail the Republican party

Glenshane Pass

twitch1984 wrote: »

Is'nt a nationalist the same thing as a republican? Ie Fianna fail the Republican party

Aswell as FF having originally come from SF.

Eliot Rosewater

twitch1984 wrote: »

Is'nt a nationalist the same thing as a republican? Ie Fianna fail the Republican party

There are different shades of nationalism; it's quite obvious that SF are more nationalist than FF. Additionally, FF are using that term merely as a slogan. Again, they're not "Republican" in the same way SF are.

Glenshane Pass wrote: »

Aswell as FF having originally come from SF.

A far too simplified analysis of political parties in Ireland I think.

RDM_83 again

I'd be interested about what twitch1984 and eliotrosewater would have felt about living in Ireland before the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the removal of articles 2 and 3, presumably its pretty painful living in a country where your constitution is "nationalist" if voting for a party with that belief is repungent to you.

Well since Dev led SF and most of the 1926 FF were members just because its a simplified answer doesn't make it inherently wrong.

twitch1984

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'd be interested about what twitch1984 and eliotrosewater would have felt about living in Ireland before the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the removal of articles 2 and 3, presumably its pretty painful living in a country where your constitution is "nationalist" if voting for a party with that belief is repungent to you.

Well since Dev led SF and most of the 1926 FF were members just because its a simplified answer doesn't make it inherently wrong.

I did live in ireland before the good friday agreement and imho didnt find things much different than they are today.

Eliot Rosewater

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'd be interested about what twitch1984 and eliotrosewater would have felt about living in Ireland before the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the removal of articles 2 and 3, presumably its pretty painful living in a country where your constitution is "nationalist" if voting for a party with that belief is repungent to you.

I don't mind nationalists being in government. What I do mind is when they force their nationalistic pipe dream on me through schemes such as compulsory Irish. Of course, to add insult to injury, I then have to pay for this dream.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Well since Dev led SF and most of the 1926 FF were members just because its a simplified answer doesn't make it inherently wrong.

The Sinn Fein of the 20's is a lot different to the political party that emerged in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.