twin earth socket

minterno

hi guys,i need a bit of info/advice,two weeks ago i replaced a twin socket with a switched twin socket,the new socket has twin earths, the old one has a single earth,the socket is live but the switch appears to be broke,the socket is live when the switch is either on or off,today i installed a new switch and the same problem exists with this socket, either both sockets are faulty which would be very unlikely, or i have cocked up, the new sockets have twin earths but i have wired the socket the same as the old one ie both earth wires into the one earth terminal,i have the live in the live and the netural in the netural ,any advice would be greatly appreciated,regards

americanpie

The 2 earth terminals are common, dosent matter which one the earths are in, sounds like you have 2 dodgy sockets, as all the switch does is disconnect the live in the socket itself, so if the cables are connected right, its a dodgy socket

minterno

thanks for the prompt reply,thought that must be it but am surprised as both were bought from 4home store,.will have to bring them back tomorrow,regards

Bruthal

minterno wrote: »

thanks for the prompt reply,thought that must be it but am surprised as both were bought from 4home store,.will have to bring them back tomorrow,regards

Are you sure you have not mixed up L & N because if you put the live into the neutral terminal then the switch will only be switching off the neutral now, The Live pin in the socket should be the one on the right as you look at front of socket plate, if its the one on the left you have mixed up Live and Neutral.

Or are you plugging something in and its not going off when you switch off the socket? In this case its faulty by sound of it.

Offy

Could you post a picture? Sometimes two connectors are attached to one earth bar for easy installation but only one of the two connectors needs to be attached to earth. Two earths in a two gang socket sounds wrong. If the socket you bought has a BS mark on it then I suspect the contacts on the switch have welded together, if that is the case you can have the switch in either open or closed position and the electricity will still flow.
robbie7730 is right in all he says but Id add that the earth is just another netural. It carries electricity from live if the neutral line fails. Thats not a good or technically accurate explanation but if you have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral it explains it better. If you have connected the wires in the wrong way you risk setting fire to your house. Best to get an electrician to do it.

Bruthal

Offy wrote: »

Could you post a picture? Sometimes two connectors are attached to one earth bar for easy installation but only one of the two connectors needs to be attached to earth. Two earths in a two gang socket sounds wrong. If the socket you bought has a BS mark on it then I suspect the contacts on the switch have welded together, if that is the case you can have the switch in either open or closed position and the electricity will still flow.
robbie7730 is right in all he says but Id add that the earth is just another netural. It carries electricity from live if the neutral line fails. Thats not a good or technically accurate explanation but if you have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral it explains it better. If you have connected the wires in the wrong way you risk setting fire to your house. Best to get an electrician to do it.

Mixing live in neutral in a socket wont cause any fire in any way i can think of. Anything plugged into a reverse polarity standard 3 pin socket in a house will still work perfectly well and there will be no symptoms to show its reversed polarity except by testing the socket itself.

Solair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Mixing live in neutral in a socket wont cause any fire in any way i can think of. Anything plugged into a reverse polarity standard 3 pin socket in a house will still work perfectly well and there will be no symptoms to show its reversed polarity except by testing the socket itself.

Is it possible that you've wired the socket correctly, but that the live & neutral are reversed on the circuit?

Test other sockets nearby. If the neutral (left side) is live, then someone has mixed up the colours.

Live = red (old) and brown (modern)
neutral =black (old) and blue (modern)

reversing the live and neutral on an AC circuit doesn't make much difference. It's just not considered good practice to switch neutrals as components within an appliance could be live when it's switched off e.g. Toaster elements could be switched off but still connected to 230V because the curcuit's switched off in the neutral side. Jamming a fork in could give you a shock.

On the continent, most plugs are reversible so polarity is random. Meaning that they don't worry which is live and which is neutral. That also applies here for appliances connected with a figure-of-eight connector eg your radio, DVD player, satellite box etc. Or any appliance connected via a European plug & schuko adaptor.

European electrical safety rules force appliance makers to design products to work safely without polarised plugs and sockets. Those sane rules apply to all appliances sold in Ireland.

This is also why it is always important to unplug any appliance you are cleaning or servicing. You can never be totally sure the power is totally isolated and you should absolutely never assume that neutral wires are 0V. They can, particularly in TT ( non neutralised ) installations drift up to relatively dangerous voltages. Also, if there's any neutral fault, there can be dangerous voltages present on the neutral wires.

All that being said, Irish wiring rules require IS411 (normal sockets) to be polarised correctly. If there is a serious mix-up, call a professional! I wouldn't advise that anyone else should poke around in a consumer unit (fuse box) there are very dangerous non-rcd protected circuits in there!

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

Is it possible that you've wired the socket correctly, but that the live & neutral are reversed on the circuit?

Test other sockets nearby. If the neutral (left side) is live, then someone has mixed up the colours.

Live = red (old) and brown (modern)
neutral =black (old) and blue (modern)

reversing the live and neutral on an AC circuit doesn't make much difference. It's just not considered good practice to switch neutrals as components within an appliance could be live when it's switched off e.g. Toaster elements could be switched off but still connected to 230V because the curcuit's switched off in the neutral side. Jamming a fork in could give you a shock.

On the continent, most plugs are reversible so polarity is random. Meaning that they don't worry which is live and which is neutral. That also applies here for appliances connected with a figure-of-eight connector eg your radio, DVD player, satellite box etc. Or any appliance connected via a European plug & schuko adaptor.

European electrical safety rules force appliance makers to design products to work safely without polarised plugs and sockets. Those sane rules apply to all appliances sold in Ireland.

This is also why it is always important to unplug any appliance you are cleaning or servicing. You can never be totally sure the power is totally isolated and you should absolutely never assume that neutral wires are 0V. They can, particularly in TT ( non neutralised ) installations drift up to relatively dangerous voltages. Also, if there's any neutral fault, there can be dangerous voltages present on the neutral wires.

All that being said, Irish wiring rules require IS411 (normal sockets) to be polarised correctly. If there is a serious mix-up, call a professional! I wouldn't advise that anyone else should poke around in a consumer unit (fuse box) there are very dangerous non-rcd protected circuits in there!

I was`t saying its ok to reverse polarity just in case it looked as if i was, just that it wont show up except by testing.

Solair

robbie7730 wrote: »

I was`t saying its ok to reverse polarity just in case it looked as if i was, just that it wont show up except by testing.

I realise that. Polarity is quite often reversed or a bit random in old installations in Ireland. I suspect some of the very old installations may have used Schuko (german type) sockets that were just replaced by IS411 without rewiring. I have certainly seem very old wiring here where the neutral and live were the same colour and only the earth was identified as different. This is identical to old German wiring!

Schuko (2-pin side earthed) was definitely used at one stage here. I'm not entirely sure when it was last installed, but it does occasionally crop up in older suburban houses, often just as a disconnected relic in a skirting.

They seem to have coexisted alongside the old round pin British-type fittings.

That and old DIY wiring might explain some of the ambiguities in old houses.

minterno

have been away for a few days hence the lack of replys from myself,the second socket is working at the moment,strange one as it was def not switching a few days ago,i will drop them both back where i got them and get my money back,will buy elsewhere,i will try to upload a few pics of the old socket and the new one'sold socket.JPG

new 1.JPG

new 2.JPG

Offy

robbie7730 wrote: »

Mixing live in neutral in a socket wont cause any fire in any way i can think of. Anything plugged into a reverse polarity standard 3 pin socket in a house will still work perfectly well and there will be no symptoms to show its reversed polarity except by testing the socket itself.

About a year ago the house I lived in nearly burnt down because the cook/extractor was wired that way. Or so the electrician that re-wired it told me!
Attachment 116824 is a single connector earth busbar.
Attachment 116825 is a duel connector earth busbar. It look to me that you have wired it correctly. If the sockets were designed with weld-breakers it could explain why they sometimes stick. Id bring them back and buy a better socket.

meercat

minterno
when you say the new socket is still live when switched off,how are you testing this?
are you using a phase tester or are you getting 230 volts with test lamps?
is it possible to use testers to check voltage and polarity on the connections behind the socket(only if you are competent,remember electricity kills)
it may be possible that you have reverse polarity on an adjacent socket or the fuse board.
as others have pointed out the switch may be isolating a neutral even though you have your colours correctly
try connecting cables into connector block and with test meter check between
live+ neutral(brown+blue)should be 230volts
live+ earth(brown+green/yellow)should be230volts
neutral+earth(blue+green/yellow)no voltage
i have yet to come across a socket that switches the neutral and now you have gotten 2
i would suspect a wiring problem.maybe too big to sort yourself.ask an electrician to have a look.cheers

minterno

hi meercat,when the switch is in the off posisition the power is still supplied to the tv and sat box, as for testing in the manner described it would be beyond me, i have changed a few sockets in the last few years in the same house with no probs, the switch is working at present but its a bit of a worry when it would not work on thursday and works today,regards

Solair

minterno wrote: »

hi meercat,when the switch is in the off posisition the power is still supplied to the tv and sat box, as for testing in the manner described it would be beyond me, i have changed a few sockets in the last few years in the same house with no probs, the switch is working at present but its a bit of a worry when it would not work on thursday and works today,regards

if the socket is switched off and power is still flowing, the switch is broken or faulty.

Replace the socket with a better brand. Can't beat MK !

minterno

thanks, where would i buy that brand,my location is cork,regards

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

Mixing live in neutral in a socket wont cause any fire in any way i can think of. Anything plugged into a reverse polarity standard 3 pin socket in a house will still work perfectly well and there will be no symptoms to show its reversed polarity except by testing the socket itself.

the plug fuse will be in the neutral conductor -so it will still provide overload protection but not 'L-E' short-circuit protection

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

the plug fuse will be in the neutral conductor -so it will still provide overload protection but not 'L-E' short-circuit protection

Good point although we`d hope the plug fuse is not the only source of interruption, but anything is possible.

M cebee

it'll back up to the mcb/rcd

if main tails are inadvertently 'reversed'- L-E short would back up to cut-out fuse

you'd have to be very 'careless' not to verify polarity but it's happened

Solair

minterno wrote: »

thanks, where would i buy that brand,my location is cork,regards

Dwyers up by the airport road / kinsale road interchange. Great for all that stuff.

B&Q has good quality fittings, at insanely high prices.

In general I would always suggest not skimping on cost for sockets. They're mechanically complicated because they use spring-contacts to connect with the pins. Well built sockets, e.g. MK will last for decades without problems. Cheap and nasty non-branded junk will often loosen with use and you end up with hot pins, burnt sockets etc and ulimately haw to replace them.

MK's shutter system is also vastly superiour and there is really no chance of kids ever inserting anything other than a plug.

They also have double-pole switching ie it switched both live and neutral.

All in all, I'd always opt for that brand or well known other brands.

There's a lot of cheap junk with massive mark-ups on the Market, particularly in DIY chains!

M cebee

ya mk for sockets alright

worth it for the shutter and DP switching