Foreign Marriage and Foreign Divorce

smileyculture

Hi,
I am writing to see if anyone has been in a simailar situation or knows the legal stance on this issue. Basically, I know two people who are both Irish citizens, one only recently so. They both got married abroad, one in the US and one in South Africa and both their spouses applied for divorce abroad and got their divorce decrees (in the US and UK) and have both remarried. These 2 Irish citizens have recently applied to get married in Ireland only to be told their foreign divorces are not recognised in Ireland. When the applied to get married and were told they could not and that they would have to reapply for divorce here in Ireland which costs a lot to do, their 150euro fee for registration was not reimbursed either.

My question is, if their foreign divorces are not recognised in Ireland, do they have a case to say their foreign marriages are also not recognised in Ireland? Could they then apply to get married saying they have not been married in the eyes of the Irish state? And if they cannot do this, how can their foreign marriages be recognised and not their foreign divorces. Also, does this mean if someone was to get divorced abroad and remarry abroad and then come to live in ireland, would this person be viewed as a bigamist?

OK, just to clarify, this is not a request for legal advice - just opinions and seeing if anyone else has had a similar situation.

seamus

smileyculture wrote: »

My question is, if their foreign divorces are not recognised in Ireland, do they have a case to say their foreign marriages are also not recognised in Ireland? Could they then apply to get married saying they have not been married in the eyes of the Irish state? And if they cannot do this, how can their foreign marriages be recognised and not their foreign divorces.

A foreign divorce is only recognised in Ireland if one (or both) of the spouses was resident in that foreign country at the time that the divorce was obtained. Otherwise, you are required to go through the Irish divorce proceedings in order to have it recognised here.

Marriage is different - your marriage only needs to be legally valid in the foreign state and in Ireland in order for it to be recognised here. Your residency at the time is largely irrelevant.

If it is the case that their former spouses were resident abroad when the divorces were granted, then they can fight their case, but they will need proof that this was the case (old bills, etc).

Also, does this mean if someone was to get divorced abroad and remarry abroad and then come to live in ireland, would this person be viewed as a bigamist?

No, because the foreign divorce would be recognised.

In the case of your friends, they can go abroad and get married, however their foreign marriage would not be recognised here because they are currently ineligible to get married here.

smileyculture

Thanks for your feedback. Both the former spouses were resident in the states that the divorces were granted but the former US spouse has moved state since, not country though. They have toyed with the idea of getting married abroad but they obviously want their marriage recognised in the country they are both resident in and citizens of.

seamus

Details here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/getting-married/marital-status-and-the-right-to-marry

Technically speaking, the local registrar was right to deny their request, but should have outlined the below process for having their foreign divorces recognised.

Unfortunately it does require the involvement of the ex-spouses which may or may not be forthcoming.

If you have a foreign divorce, you will have to supply a copy of the Divorce Decree Nisi and Absolute. If the divorce decree is in a foreign language, you must provide an English translation certified by a relevant official body or recognised translation agency.

Not all foreign divorces are recognised under Irish law. A foreign divorce will only be recognised in Ireland if at least one spouse was "domiciled" in the state that granted the divorce when the proceedings started. You may have to provide good evidence that this was the case and, therefore, that the divorce is valid under Irish law.

The Registrar will give you two questionnaires, one for the divorced party seeking to remarry and one for his/her divorced ex-spouse. You must provide certain information about your place of birth, your place of residence and employment at the time of the divorce proceedings, property and business connections abroad and some other relevant facts. If you knowingly give false information, you may be found guilty of perjury - an offence punishable by law.

This information is then forwarded to the Registrar General whose consent is required before the marriage ceremony can take place. If he/she is of the opinion that the foreign divorce is valid, then the new marriage can go ahead. If not, you can provide additional information to prove validity or else you can apply for a hearing before the Circuit Court.

The Court's decision on the validity of a foreign divorce in Irish law is final and binding, although you may, of course, appeal to a higher court. If the Court decides that your foreign divorce is not binding, your only option if you wish to remarry in Ireland may be to get a divorce under Irish law.

dermot_sheehan

They need to apply to the circuit court under section 29 of the family alw act for a declaration of marital status.

Foreign divorces only recognised if you or the other party to the old marraige are domiciled in the state that granted the divorce. So if for example the divorce was granted by new york but the registrar general upon looking at the questionaires finds that yourself and your old spouse were not domiciled there but rather were domiciled in new jersey, it would not be recognised.

For divorces by other EU states, you only have to be "ordinary resident".

gar32

Hoping one of you can help me. I am hoping to marry in Poland this year. I was married before in Spain but got a Irish Divorce. Will Poland allow me marry there or do I have to go too Polsih court?

Many Thanks

Gar

gar32

I rang Polish consulate Yesterday. She could not get me off the phone quick enough. Could not even suggest any thing but you need to ask in Poland. Polish consulate may as well be Poland


aaaggggrrrrrr

Punchbear

So divorce legislation in this country is still as grown-up as the rest of the stuff we try to put into law? I can get divorced in a country that took decades to implement a state mechanism to examine institutionalised rape and child abuse? Yet the same outdated precepts that allowed the lives of thousands of innocents to be ruined govern my life and personal choices and the legal space within which I must maneuver? What bit of that makes any sense whatsoever? WHY should I wait 5 years to get a legal dissolution of a marriage created in a country that sat on its backside and allowed itself to, again, with that peculiarly Catholic form of subservient tokenism, be forced into doing something it shouldn't? Can another rational human being explain this to me?

234

If you don't like it, do something about it.

Punchbear

Like get a divorce abroad and make like a bigamist? That kind of do something about it?

Our man in Havana

It is a bizarre situation where you can be legally married abroad and the marriage recognised everywhere else except Ireland.

So you can be a bigamist in Ireland whilst being legally married everywhere else.

dermot_sheehan

Many other countries do not recognise foreign divorces unless officially recognised, Germany for example requires non-EU divorces to be filed in a German Family court before recognised.

234

Punchbear wrote: »

Like get a divorce abroad and make like a bigamist? That kind of do something about it?

Yeah, sarcasm will solve it. If you are unhappy with the state of the law lobby to hav it changed.

Mint1

Hi I just had a question regarding divorce abroad hoping someone can help...
My husband and I got married nearly 3 years ago abroad in his hometown , I'm an Irish citizen and called him over on spouse visa a year after our marraige he's here almost 2 years now , we decided to divorce each other we don't have kids or anything like that to worry about now I read and heard about this law of 4 years of separation before divorce which I btw strongly disagree with which is a different discussion anyway so I am not working at the moment and do not have the money to hire a solicitor and pay 2/3 grand just to get a divorce and also just the thought of having to wait 3/4 years to get a divorce from him puts me into depression. I was wondering is it possible for me to get a divorce where we originally got married as it will be (quicker and not expensive)and would it be then recognized in ireland?
Thank you in advance for your answers
Really in need of some...

Procrastastudy

This...

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

They need to apply to the circuit court under section 29 of the family alw act for a declaration of marital status.

Foreign divorces only recognised if you or the other party to the old marraige are domiciled in the state that granted the divorce. So if for example the divorce was granted by new york but the registrar general upon looking at the questionaires finds that yourself and your old spouse were not domiciled there but rather were domiciled in new jersey, it would not be recognised.

For divorces by other EU states, you only have to be "ordinary resident".

I think that means you both have to move back to the home town and do it then.

Mint1

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

This...

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

They need to apply to the circuit court under section 29 of the family alw act for a declaration of marital status.

Foreign divorces only recognised if you or the other party to the old marraige are domiciled in the state that granted the divorce. So if for example the divorce was granted by new york but the registrar general upon looking at the questionaires finds that yourself and your old spouse were not domiciled there but rather were domiciled in new jersey, it would not be recognised.

For divorces by other EU states, you only have to be "ordinary resident".

I think that means you both have to move back to the home town and do it then.

Hi thanks for replying, but I'm Irish and don't live there and as mentioned above it says atleast one of the partner has to be domiciled in that country, so is that like just until the divorce procedure is over or is there a certain amount of time he'd have to live in that country before getting divorced and after the divorce can they leave the country they got divorced in?

Procrastastudy

I'm only going from my reading in regarding to something else I was doing. But from what I can gather - back in the day - the husband would be living in the UK so could get a divorce that way.

Domicile would mean he would have to live there for some time.

The other thing is I *thought* they had done something to close this back door on divorce but I'm probably wrong.

Pkiernan

You should know that "domiciled" and "resident" are not the same thing in the eyes of the law, and not in the eyes of the HSE who handle recognition of foreign divorce in Ireland.

To be domiciled, you will need to show that not only were you resident, but that your prior intentions were that you had intended to reside there. Examples of this can include ownership of real estate or a business, ties to the local community etc.

This can be quite tricky.

It really is time for a solicitor.

Our man in Havana

It is almost impossible to get rid of an Irish domicile if you are an Irish citizen.

Pkiernan

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is almost impossible to get rid of an Irish domicile if you are an Irish citizen.

Through my own personal experience, I know this to be NOT true.

It is not a piece of cake, but if one is genuinely domiciled abroad, it is quite easy to do so.

Legal advice helps.

Our man in Havana

I am going through this at the moment. It is one thing to convince the foreign government you are domiciled in their country, it is a completely different matter convincing the Irish government.

Pkiernan

If you have any questions, please PM me.

Like I mentioned, I have direct, first hand experience with this.

Mint1

Thanks everyone for all your answers and help , really appreciate it.
I'm going to go for some legal advice soon, will let you guys know how it goes and will share it with you guys( if I learn something new ) that might be handy for future references .

Mint1

Pkiernan wrote: »

If you have any questions, please PM me.

Like I mentioned, I have direct, first hand experience with this.

Thanks will do that

waylander2002

i was married to a ukranian girl, it fell apart very quick, we were married in Ukraine and then divorced there. Obviously she didnt want divorce as better to be married to me. Court granted it however. I got the divorce cert all done and translated. Now im told in Ireland I need original marriage cert(which court took in Ukraine when they granted divorce) or my exs original birth cert. Now there is no marriage cert and I asked her for birth cert and she refused, and only she can get it in Ukraine.
So my question is , I want to be married again and think maybe it would be easier to get married in Lithuania where my new partner is from (and mother of my child) Will they fill the form for me in Dublin 'freedom to marry abroad' or will I have more problems? I thought about going to the circuit court to have divorce regonised, but I have nothing to prove she resided in Ukraine at the time, except maybe facebook pictures she has put up etc.
Any advice from anyone?>

waylander2002

oh, btw i have a photocopy of her birth cert and of marriage cert

MadsL

Went through this experience with my American wife. This was her second marriage; the lunacy of finding out that we would have to contact her ex to go through the Irish process of ratification was mortifying to her, she had lost all contact and had no wish to see "that Bastard" again.

I can perhaps see the reasoning behind not recognizing Irish citizen's divorces in this manner, but what prey is the reasoning behind denying other nationalities resident here access to civil marriage ceremonies without emotional distress.

We ended up taking the expedient route - one well travelled in connection with Irish law - and 'got the boat' and were married in the UK.

As neither of us were Irish citizens at the time (my wife now holds an Irish passport) we were put to unnecessary trouble and expense by this absurd situation.

Our man in Havana

MadsL wrote: »

Went through this experience with my American wife. This was her second marriage; the lunacy of finding out that we would have to contact her ex to go through the Irish process of ratification was mortifying to her, she had lost all contact and had no wish to see "that Bastard" again.

I can perhaps see the reasoning behind not recognizing Irish citizen's divorces in this manner, but what prey is the reasoning behind denying other nationalities resident here access to civil marriage ceremonies without emotional distress.

We ended up taking the expedient route - one well travelled in connection with Irish law - and 'got the boat' and were married in the UK.

As neither of us were Irish citizens at the time (my wife now holds an Irish passport) we were put to unnecessary trouble and expense by this absurd situation.

I had to do the same thing. Got married outside the jurisdiction.

MadsL

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I had to do the same thing. Got married outside the jurisdiction.

Someone should estimate the loss to the Irish economy of sending marriages overseas.

MadsL

Pkiernan wrote: »

You should know that "domiciled" and "resident" are not the same thing in the eyes of the law, and not in the eyes of the HSE who handle recognition of foreign divorce in Ireland.

:eek: Why the HSE?????

Our man in Havana

Historically it was the former health boards that handled the registration of deaths, births and marriages. Probably due to their connections with hospitals where the majority of deaths and births took place. When the health boards were disbanded the HSE took over.

MadsL

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Historically it was the former health boards that handled the registration of deaths, births and marriages. Probably due to their connections with hospitals where the majority of deaths and births took place. When the health boards were disbanded the HSE took over.

Ah penny dropped. Still, in this day and age why the eff the HSE are still involved playing 'divorce cop' is beyond me.

Cathyht

The current situation is a nightmare, even after 7 years' living apart from my ex who was from another EU member state, it cost far more to be divorced. Once it becomes multi-jurisdictional, the lawyers must clap their hands in delight. No point in trying for a DIY divorce either, it isn't allowed.

My Nordic ex, was happily living in Turkey, outside the EU, without forwarding his address. (Probably to avoid being caught for little things like child support etc). He could marry again there or in his own EU country after living apart from me for 2 or 3 years. He was as free as a bird. I on the other hand was still 'married' because I was Irish and we married here. It took over 8 years after we had been living together, to get a divorce, which ended up costing over 5k. I was 'awarded costs', which meant I paid, and he was responsible if he was back here and they could get him - some chance of that!

In a bizarre twist, because he wouldn't get a solicitor, my solicitor acted for him too. He agreed to a divorce only if I didn't look for anything from him (which I had never sought anyway). Apparently it was the first time a divorce here was dealt with through email and accepted with an electronic signature. Even though the property is registered in my sole name, the lending institution won't take his name off the mortgage as my earnings supposedly aren't high enough, even though I've now been paying the mortgage for over 11 years singlehandedly without any type of maintenance or child support. I feel the system doesn't serve married people divorcing very well. It all seems quite straightforward if you're Irish, your partner is Irish and neither of you are ever leaving here or would marry a non-Irish person.

The Irish divorce system penalises the most law abiding people who actually have most respect for marriage. It facilitates those who have no ties in Ireland and no respect for marital status or law.

Pat Mustard

Cathyht wrote: »

it cost far more to be divorced. Once it becomes multi-jurisdictional, the lawyers must clap their hands in delight.

Cathyht wrote: »

to get a divorce, which ended up costing over 5k

Five grand?

Cathyht

1k for the Barrister for one day. Then the Solicitor pretended to do a GREAT deal for me by "only" charging almost another 5k. I paid him another 4,200 amid lots of arguing about the extortionate charge. He threatened to bring me to the civil court and put a charge on my home, with some ridiculous interest rate. Robbery, there was no property to settle, no custody, visitation rights, no child support or alimony to settle, myself and ex at that point both agreed to the divorce. House was in my name in land registry already, so that wasn't an issue but the mortgage remained in both names, as I said the Bank won't do anything about that despite the fact I've been paying the mortgage by myself well over a decade. I've almost finished paying it now anyway, another thing that won't matter very soon. All in all it has cost a lot and taken AGES.

Pat Mustard

Cathyht wrote: »

All in all it has cost a lot and taken AGES.

So that left your solicitor with less than €3,500 plus VAT, for divorce work with complications concerning an unrepresented respondent who was out of the jurisdiction, and a case which took years.

Cathyht

No, I applied after 7 years living apart. Yes, it was multi-jurisdictional, however, as we both agreed on it, there was nothing sought from either party, it was really just the Irish divorce paper which was required in this country. Both I and my ex responded very quickly, any problems after my application were caused by the solicitor as a matter of fact.
It was a large bill, and considering how other countries would view a marriage where both parties are living apart well over 7 years and agreed to the divorce, it is ridiculous.

I'm sure he was well paid for every second he spent on it.

The AGES I was referring to was the final detail where the Bank has the ex's name on the mortgage. In fact, in all other divorces, this aspect is dealt with DURING the divorce by the solicitor.

However, I am sure you are either The AH Solicitor I used, or Another one, so your sympathies will lie with the one charging huge fees for some paperwork, incompletely and very tardily done.

Pat Mustard

Cathyht wrote: »

It was a large bill, and considering how other countries would view a marriage where both parties are living apart well over 7 years and agreed to the divorce, it is ridiculous.

Which other countries do you mean? Are you saying you would have got a lesser bill in these other countries? How much?

Cathyht wrote: »

I'm sure he was well paid for every second he spent on it.

Hardly market rate.

Cathyht wrote: »

The AGES I was referring to was the final detail where the Bank has the ex's name on the mortgage. In fact, in all other divorces, this aspect is dealt with DURING the divorce by the solicitor.

Really, and if the bank would not agree to discharge the mortgage which is in joint names, how do you propose that the solicitor would go about dealing with this?

Cathyht

You seem to have a great interest in my particular divorce and the cost, Mustard Seed. I know exactly what went on there, you are surmising from the bare bones.

However, happily I don't need anymore advice on it, it's finished and I've moved on, things worked out extremely well for me, in spite of the solicitor being worse than my ex. I only wish him all the unpleasant karma he deserves.

Your opinion isn't really of interest, which is why I've put you on my Ignore list.

I was making the point on this forum generally, that in Ireland any aspect of marriage and non nationals, or marriages/divorce outside the state create unnecessary problems and extra expense. Even on this forum, there are so many stories of people's second marriages not recognised here, lots of extra expense to re-divorce, so Ireland will recognise it etc. People being married in the North or in England.

Anyway, I've since found a very good solicitor who charges reasonable rates for excellent work, it is immediately recognisable when you have a good solicitor rather than a con man. And, the wonder of the age, she is not at all condescending.

Pat Mustard

Go cruise some billy goats.

waylander2002

I married a ukrainaian lady a number of years ago in Ukraine after a time I realised she was using me me. I asked her to return to Ukraine and she did. I had some friends there and I quickly applied for divorce , she refused to go to the court and on the 5th time the judge granted it. I had given my lawyer rights to act on my behalf.In total it cost me 200 euros, I realise how lucky i am to escape. And received my papers quickly, she hadnt married me for 3 years and was unable to return to ireland. I met my new partner 2 years ago and we now have a baby girl , we wanted to get married and I applied and had my papers translated , they asked then for either my exs birthcert or the marriage cert, the marriage cert had been confiscated by the court and I asked her for the birth cert and she refused, in Ukraine they will only issue them to the owner. Seems like I cannot marry here at all now, its very upsetting. I had a scanned copy of both certs btw, does anyone have any suggestions?

zehuds

Yeah would love to know myself I married an Albanian Lady, we got married in Albania 14 years ago, the marriage ended 2.5 years ago and she moved to live in ENgland with the kids, would really like to get a divorce and get this all sorted anyone know the best way to go about this.

hash82

Dear Sir/Madam! just a quarry about my case related, please anyone guide me

I was getting married in Ireland with an Estonian Girl & then after couple of years she got divorce from me from her country due to some personal issues and uncertain reasons, after having a final divorce documents in my hand, then i get married in Pakistan Now before i bring my current wife in Ireland from Pakistan i would like to know that do i have to register or submit my divorce documents in any of the Government Department of Ireland for their record & to save my time and hassles in the processing of my current spouse visa.

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Regards,

hash82

Dear Sir/Madam! just a quarry about my case related, please anyone guide me

I was getting married in Ireland with an Estonian Girl & then after couple of years she got divorce from me from her country due to some personal issues and uncertain reasons, after having a final divorce documents in my hand, then i get married in Pakistan Now before i bring my current wife in Ireland from Pakistan i would like to know that do i have to register or submit my divorce documents in any of the Government Department of Ireland for their record & to save my time and hassles in the processing of my current spouse visa.

Hoping to hear from you soon,

thanks

Regards,

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

hash82

thanks of millions