teachers pay question.

wonton

hi, sorry if these sort of threads pop up all the time but im going into 3rd year of my degree in september with hopes of eventually becoming a secondary school teacher.I've looked at the links in the threads at the top of the page but couldnt get my head around exactly how much i would start on.


so im studying a bachelors of music with english as a subject in first year( though ive heard that counts for nothing), then hopefully on to a masters and then a h.dip in education, supposing i get a 2:1 in all these around how much would i start on if i landed a permanent job.

spurious

You'd be very unlikely to get a permanent job straight off. Will you only have one subject you can teach? Music would not be a very popular subject.

Starting point 3 (probably) - €33,041
Allowance for Masters - €5,496
Allowance for Dip - €1,236

Total - €39,733

A much more likely scenario would be maybe 6-10 hours a week with the possibility of picking up deputy classes.

wonton

well because i only done english in first year i assume i cant teach it.

ye i know music isnt the most popular but i have heard its has been rising gradually and lets hope i could find somewere.

how do schools decide on subjects like music anyway?

im surprised its not more popular even just for the facet that it has like the lowest failure rate and highest honour level numbers.

spurious

It's an expensive subject in terms of resources. Extra instrument tuition, instrument hire, sound-proofing etc.
It's a good subject though. I'm sitting JC Music myself (again, having done Music Appreciation in 1978) with the kids and hoping for LC 2011 or 2012.

wonton

spurious wrote: »

It's an expensive subject in terms of resources. Extra instrument tuition, instrument hire, sound-proofing etc.
.

do you mean for the parents or school?

TheDriver

for school, lots of equipment needs to be purchased etc and take up isn't always great.
You will probably be getting sub rates for the first few years while also drawing stamps during mid terms, easter, summer etc.

gaeilgegrinds1

Most teachers with one subject I know started on 8-10 hours and our music was 3 years waiting for that in our school. So divide the aforementioned figure by 22 and multiply by those hours. Our school is possibly pulling it as is such an expense. Not happy I must say!

wonton

TheDriver wrote: »

for school, lots of equipment needs to be purchased etc and take up isn't always great.
.

apart from a few banjaxed nylon string guitars(cheap looking ones).
I cant think of any expenses that my school had.

unless your saying that the school now has to teach the kids the intruments.

i was under the impression that music teachers only guided students through the practical part, and didnt actually have to teach them.

Delphi91

wonton wrote: »

well because i only done english in first year i assume i cant teach it....

Ouch...;)

Anyway, generally a subject taken in first year can be taught to Junior Cert standard and subjects you took for your degree can't be taught to Leaving Cert level.

spurious

The students in my school would not have the money for private lessons, so our school offers them during and after school hours. We have an instrument hire system in place too, though some of the more able children (musically) have bought their own.
We also had to equip a room with computers for Sibelius. It's an expensive programme to license.

Rosita

Delphi91 wrote: »

Ouch...;)

subjects you took for your degree can't be taught to Leaving Cert level.

Whatever will this Teaching Council think of next?!:p

looksee

wonton wrote: »

Well, because I only did English in first year, I assume I can't teach it.

Yes, I know music isn't the most popular, but I have heard it has been rising gradually and let's hope I could find somewhere.

How do schools decide on subjects like music anyway?

I'm surprised it's not more popular even just for the facet ? that it has like:eek: the lowest failure rate and highest honour level numbers.

Sorry, but it has to be done, this is Teaching and Lecturing after all :eek:

What, you want my badge number?...

gaeilgegrinds1

I refrained from doing that but all jokes aside, when did, 'I done,' creep in? I've heard it a lot lately.

Delphi91

Rosita wrote: »

Whatever will this Teaching Council think of next?!:p

Thundering disgrace!!!! Disband them all, I say.....

OK, mea culpa, I kinda shot myself in the foot there. I meant to say that subjects you take for your degree CAN be taught to LC level.:o

wonton

our u sure about bean abul two teach de subject dat u own lee done in furst year? half u gota lynk?

tanks

looksee

wonton wrote: »

our u sure about bean abul two teach de subject dat u own lee done in furst year? half u gota lynk?

tanks

OK, point taken But in fairness these are public sites and teachers get enough slagging about general uselessness and long holidays and being overpaid (I went and signed on today, met several of my colleagues) and so on, so the moaners really don't need any more ammunition!

Toto Wolfcastle

Can we please refrain from commenting on spelling and grammar? Thank you.

looksee

janeybabe wrote: »

Can we please refrain from commenting on spelling and grammar? Thank you.

Yes, sorry, I went off topic.

rainbowtrout

wonton wrote: »

apart from a few banjaxed nylon string guitars(cheap looking ones).
I cant think of any expenses that my school had.

unless your saying that the school now has to teach the kids the intruments.

i was under the impression that music teachers only guided students through the practical part, and didnt actually have to teach them.

.... well I'll put it to you this way, what did you learn in music in school?

From what I know from the music teacher in my school, they learn to read and write music, singing, harmonies, music theory, case studies on different types of music - traditional, classical etc, and they have to do a practical for junior cert. As is the case in most schools offering music there are always students who take it up for the first time in secondary school who do not have any musical instrument and do not go to lessons. So they all learn the recorder as well. Some students have private lessons in piano, violin etc.

On top of all that the LC course has a Music Technology elective where the students learn to compose using the Sibelius software that spurious. mentioned. Our music teacher has a piano and an electric piano as well as lots of random small instruments - tambourines, recorders, a couple of violins, tin whistles, harmonicas. It's a fairly intensive subject for one that is only an optional subject. There will normally be only one music teacher in a school that offers it and they might also be teaching another subject along with it.

wonton

rainbowtrout wrote: »

.... well I'll put it to you this way, what did you learn in music in school?

From what I know from the music teacher in my school, they learn to read and write music, singing, harmonies, music theory, .

first off, singing is an option.


reading,writing,harmonies is all just part off music theory, you are just breaking the subject up.

you dont actually have to compose on sibelius ethier, just use the software to input a piece of your choice.

you can also choose listening as an elective which contains relatively simple questions and also has alot of choice questions(some with only 2 or 3 options which gives a high chance of being right with out understanding the question).



it seems to be a very complex subject,but underneath is an easy subject, perhaps too easy, as alot of people in colleges think it doesnt prepare students enough.

rainbowtrout

wonton wrote: »

first off, singing is an option.


reading,writing,harmonies is all just part off music theory, you are just breaking the subject up.

you dont actually have to compose on sibelius ethier, just use the software to input a piece of your choice.

you can also choose listening as an elective which contains relatively simple questions and also has alot of choice questions.

I never claimed to know much about music, because I don't, but as far as I know this is what it involves. You however seem to be under the impression that music teachers don't have to do anything, and seem put out by the fact that you may actually have to teach them music.

Not all students that take music can sing, so it would be unfair to expect them all to do so when they could learn a relatively simple instrument

wonton

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I never claimed to know much about music, because I don't, but as far as I know this is what it involves. You however seem to be under the impression that music teachers don't have to do anything, and seem put out by the fact that you may actually have to teach them music.

Not all students that take music can sing, so it would be unfair to expect them all to do so when they could learn a relatively simple instrument

sorry if i sounded harsh,i am not under the impression that its an joke of a job. but i pretty sure its not their job to teach instruments. there are options for people that dont sing or play instruments which can replace the pratical such as extra listening and composing.

my main point in earlier posts was that it seems that school have the impression that music is too expensive to teach which is false, maybe true if you teach a certain way, like making the pratical compulsory or very important, but buying loads of instruments is not necessary

rainbowtrout

wonton wrote: »

sorry if i sounded harsh,i am not under the impression that its an joke of a job. but i pretty sure its not their job to teach instruments. there are options for people that dont sing or play instruments which can replace the pratical such as extra listening and composing.

my main point in earlier posts was that it seems that school have the impression that music is too expensive to teach which is false, maybe true if you teach a certain way, like making the pratical compulsory or very important, but buying loads of instruments is not necessary

I would have thought that the practical element of the subject is one of the fundamental parts of music and is probably why a large number of students take it up. And so they have to be accommodated. As I said in my school it's recorders all the way for those that don't already know how to play. Not all teachers can sing either.

Also a music class is most likely to be mixed ability, not everyone will have the ability for listening and composing. Teaching an instrument like the recorder is a good option for the weaker student.

spurious

From what I can see (and sometimes sadly, hear) most of our music department time is filled with teaching the recorder (oh god)/guitar/piano/singing.

We have a few children whose parents can afford lessons outside the school, but only a very few. We also bring in specialist teachers for a couple of hours a week, such as for violin/clarinet etc..

We have spent a lot of money on our music department and generally speaking we would feel it's been worth it.

awny

Ive just been reading the last couple of posts about only having one subject and im kinda worried.... im doing a PGDE in Maths Teaching in UL in sept and now im kinda anxious that maths is my only subject? I took accounting in first year as part of my degree and got an A1 in it both semesters , so theres a possibility the school might allow me to teach Business to JC but... im i screwed with one subject?

TheDriver

wouldn't worry too much as Maths is always in demands, especially at the moment. A second subject is obviously desirable but your main subject is well sought after

awny

Thanks for that. Well im actually qualified to teach Applied Maths aswell but i dont think many schools have that!

Toto Wolfcastle

If you apply to a school that does no offer Applied Maths you could always mention at the interview that you would be willing to offer it after school to students who are interested. The school I attended offered it and had a full class. It would add something extra to your application too.

rainbowtrout

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would have thought that the practical element of the subject is one of the fundamental parts of music

Theory is the most fundamental part in JC/LC music
We had students trying to join LC music -
"have you done any music theory before"
"no but I've been playing the guitar for years"
"Uh huh, find another subject"
Seems odd you could teach them to grade 6 level in the school itself.

rainbowtrout

bluewolf wrote: »

Theory is the most fundamental part in JC/LC music
We had students trying to join LC music -
"have you done any music theory before"
"no but I've been playing the guitar for years"
"Uh huh, find another subject"
Seems odd you could teach them to grade 6 level in the school itself.

I said one of not the only.

We've had students in the exact same situation and the music teacher has taken them on provided that they show a genuine aptitude for music - not just be able to strum four chords and they go away and get lessons in reading/writing music etc the summer between junior cert and fifth year and it's always worked out fine. A student can pick up 50% between their practical and elective (Music technology in my school) so for a student that is a really good musician but has never learned any musical theory they have that start at least.