Fionn Carr

chupacabra

I think its time we, the (over inflated) ticket buying, jersey wearing, loyal supporters of Irish rugby get an answer as to why one of our best wingers is being left off the plane to the southern hemisphere and seemingly out of the picture altogether for his country. Its bloody ridiculous and really undermines everything he has done in Connacht over the last number of seasons. I dont want to hear the "Oh its because his defense is poor" argument because if you've been to any Connacht game or seen one of the handful that are shown on tv you will know that his defense isn't bad enough to warrant him being completely forgotten about for Ireland. Fair enough he wouldn't make the starting 15 against the All Blacks or Australia but how the hell can Kidney justify selecting Johne Murphy over him? From what i've seen Murphy hasn't gotten much game time at all this season and seems to only have been picked because he is now a Munster player. Disgraceful... simply put. Absolutely Disgraceful. I, like many other people on this forum, are genuinely starting to lose faith in Kidneys entire approach to his team selections and its inexcusable how one of the fastest and most attack orientated players in Ireland right now just seems to have been totally forgotten about.

Im furious almost to the point of getting a pen and paper and writing a letter to the IRFU addressed directly to Kidney (like it would even reach him in the first place :rolleyes:). I would love to know if there is some email address i can contact for complaints or at least to try and get some kind of answers to this. But alas i know there is not. I feel incredibly sorry for the player and his family that he is almost shunned to the side. At least give the lad a chance.

If, god forbid, another injury takes place to an irish winger and Kidney calls up anyone BUT Fionn Carr then i'm moving to Bangkok and becoming a prostitute.

danthefan

I dunno what the story is but I hope to jebus Schmidt brings him back to Leinster. I'd heard (completely unsubstantiated) rumours that himself and Cheika didn't exactly see eye to eye but that shouldn't be an issue anymore. I've always been very impressed by him and seeing him behind the likes of Murphy and Dowling earlier in the season was beyond belief.

Podge_irl

He has some defieciencies in his game, but such a prospect being completely and utterly ignored by the irish management just beggars belief at this stage. I genuinely do not understand it. He is already a better player than Dowling for example and has the capacity to be a hell of a lot better. I just don't get it.

maxxie

hes a great talent! really caught my eye recently! Star for the future

hurleronditch

Carr is a fantastic talent, and while i dont disagree with any of your arguments, i think bringing johne murphy isnt that bad a call.

Carr hasnt even played in the heineken cup yet, and while his weak point, defence, has improved immeasurably, has it really been that tested? I mean to go from defending well against glasgow or leinster to defending against the ABs in their own patch is a different story.

Both players are at similar stages of their development, and to be honest i dont think either is top level international quality, for very varied reasons. Its just if it came to it next saturday morning and deccie had to throw one of them on if say tommy bowe took a knock, id much prefer to see a safer and much more experienced murphy face up to sivivatu than fionn carr.

i think the brave call would have been to bring an andrew conway or an eoin o malley along, a real hope for the future. But for the reason i hinted at above it wasnt the time to do it.

Carr would be well worth a move back to leinster, but i dont think he'll ever make it at international level, though i would love to see him prove me wrong as the guy has bundles of pace and talent, but so do luke fitzgerald, keith earls, tommy bowe, plus younger guys like omalley, conway, deasy, zebo etc etc all have as much potential and are in better places in their careers to capitalise

hurleronditch

Was just checking his age (24 - 25 before the end of the year) and i see some fun has been had his wikipedia

outwest

i hate the argument that he hasnt played hcup,

he should be on the plane, can anyone show me a clip of were his defence is poor, it not as bad as everyone thinks

hurleronditch

outwest wrote: »

i hate the argument that he hasnt played hcup,

he should be on the plane, can anyone show me a clip of were his defence is poor, it not as bad as everyone thinks

You hate the argument that he hasnt proved himself at the highest level outside of international rugby? terrible argument alright. sure why dont we just bring cronan healy along as hes the best winger in the ail if thats the case?

Podge_irl

hurleronditch wrote: »

You hate the argument that he hasnt proved himself at the highest level outside of international rugby? terrible argument alright. sure why dont we just bring cronan healy along as hes the best winger in the ail if thats the case?

Something of a disingenuous argument. Carr is the second highest try scorer in the ML in a team that is, quite frankly, ****e. He may have some problems in his game, but that's exactly why he should be exposed to the talents in the Irish coaching squad. He has the potential to be twice the player Dowling or J Murphy do.

outwest

hurleronditch wrote: »

You hate the argument that he hasnt proved himself at the highest level outside of international rugby? terrible argument alright. sure why dont we just bring cronan healy along as hes the best winger in the ail if thats the case?

it seems to be a irish thing in needing hcup experience, to get capped,
many player in other countries dont view the hcup as a must for the irish team like we do in ireland. luke fitz must of had a load of games for leinster in the hcup, johny wilkonson must have 50 caps in the hcup, there are more options, :rolleyes:

CatFromHue

i dont think its to do with heineken cup experience

gavin duffy, sean cronin and john muldoon were playing on friday night, i dont know if duffy got any time in hcup with harlequins i dont think muldoon has any either.

they are all going on the tour.

also didnt sean o brien play for ireland A last season without any h cup experience and didnt he get a full cap or two in this seasons autumn internationals

there is something else stopping him getting picked.

to be honest i havent seen too much of him but i have seen the stats of his try scoring.

honestly all he can do is keep scoring tries

hurleronditch

Podge_irl wrote: »

Something of a disingenuous argument. Carr is the second highest try scorer in the ML in a team that is, quite frankly, ****e. He may have some problems in his game, but that's exactly why he should be exposed to the talents in the Irish coaching squad. He has the potential to be twice the player Dowling or J Murphy do.

Fair enough, he has the potential to be twice those players i would agree but i believe that dowling isnt in the squad (cant find the full list on irishrugby.ie but i dont remember him being named), and as i stated above, if i wanted someone today to go on against sivivatu or toeava or whoever, i would pick murphy, though carr is undoubtedly a much more exciting player. murphy makes better sense as a stopgap for teh current situation

I would say that a lot of people are talking about him as potential, and one for the future. hes 24, 25 in a few months, hes not exactly young, and with a couple of very successful recent u20 sides providing a bucketload of talented and exciting outside backs into the provincial academies, i think that while carr should be given a chance and shipped back to leinster for a proper run at it in a decent team, he is not going to be in irelands back 3 for world cup 2015, no matter what happens. theres too much younger and equally exciting talent out there, who have better basics at a much younger age

I dont like coming on knocking a guy who is quite obviously a hard working and honest fella who has done well in going to connacht and learning from his mistakes and improving his weak points, and doing some pretty impressive scoring in the process, i just dont think he will ever really be a regular international for ireland, and i think there is a glut of guys 2/3/4 years younger than him who have the potential and time to be another fitzgerald/kearney/earls/(maybe even bod)

Foxtrol

Its a complete farce that Carr isnt over in NZ at the minute. I cant understand what Kidney's problem is with him. The guy stayed in Ireland scoring try's on a team thats getting beaten week in, week out and has worked hard and improved the weak facets of his game and still gets absolutely nothing to show for it. With Murphy coming back it cant be good news for him as due to Johne playing for Munster he'll be put in ahead every time (as will Dowling, Jones etc).

I'd completely understand and support it if Fionn did a "Cipriani" and told the IRFU to shove it and moved abroad.

thehighground

outwest wrote: »

i hate the argument that he hasnt played hcup,

he should be on the plane, can anyone show me a clip of were his defence is poor, it not as bad as everyone thinks

Do you know what happened to him in the Churchill Cup last year? He started the first game, but didn't feature again. Was he injured?

wonton

even if he did respond to your letter it would just be a vague almost non-answer "everyone cant make the squad, its all part of the game and sometimes players dont get picked,you cant win them all, at the end of the day only so many people can make it on the tour, "

maybe he done something really bad to kidney like give him a nipple cripple or something.

Podge_irl

hurleronditch wrote: »

I would say that a lot of people are talking about him as potential, and one for the future. hes 24, 25 in a few months, hes not exactly young, and with a couple of very successful recent u20 sides providing a bucketload of talented and exciting outside backs into the provincial academies, i think that while carr should be given a chance and shipped back to leinster for a proper run at it in a decent team, he is not going to be in irelands back 3 for world cup 2015, no matter what happens. theres too much younger and equally exciting talent out there, who have better basics at a much younger age

The other side to that argument is that the only reason we're talking about potential is because he hasn't been given a chance at international level yet. In terms of ML form he's been the best Irish winger behind Bowe. We can only talk of potential because he hasn't been tried at a higher level yet.

Hyperbullet

I'd love to have him at Munster. Been living in Galway for a few years now and go to as many Connacht games as I can, never fails to impress me. He is fantastic. I really cant understand how the Irish management continue to overlook him.

2040

The argument against picking him because he hasn't heineken cup experience is a poor one. Tom Prydie, for example, has barely played in the ML and he didn't look out of place against the Boks.

Shows a real lack of imagination in selection not picking him. He must have some strange hangups about certain aspects of players' game or something.

Truly bizarre omission.

Malmedicine

Just a thought but it would have been nice for him to have been included in that baa baa's squad that played Ireland on Friday as their uncapped player.

Arrogance

Criminally left behind by Kidney in favour of Munster players. In the past we've seen Dowling and Hurley get the nod ahead of him, now we're seeing Johnne Murphy. Its a joke at this stage. O'Gara starting at 10 this weekend is just another example of Kidney selecting the Munster guy over better, younger players. Mind boggling. You can say I am being paranoid but honestly there is no other reason why players like O'Gara and Johnne Murphy should be getting picked over far better, younger players like Sexton and Carr.

Stev_o

In fairness to Murphy he can actually score tries (unlike Dowling) and has been a great servant to Leicester. He's a very good winger on his day and im sad to see him move to Munster. However since that signing has been announced Cockers has decided to drop him in favour of sticking with other players that ll actually be around the following season thus his inclusion for the Irish squad is a bit odd but it's not like he's going to offer nothing like Dowling does. Still i feel for Carr we need pace men in our backline but it just doesn't seem to be as Kidney hasn't rated him since the CC where his defence wasn't deemed up to scratch.

Ciaran-Irl

hurleronditch wrote: »

Its just if it came to it next saturday morning and deccie had to throw one of them on if say tommy bowe took a knock, id much prefer to see a safer and much more experienced murphy face up to sivivatu than fionn carr.

Yeah, but Johne Murphy isn't ever going to make the bench against the All Blacks - regardless. Geordan Murphy is cover for Trimble. We're just talking about a player to go up against the Maoris and get some experience around the squad.

---

Fionn Carr very much deserves to be called up, but people are exaggerating the difference between him and Johne Murphy massively. The vague implication that Johne Murphy is a nobody that is only being picked because he signed for Munster is completely farcical. He was Leicester Tigers' top try scorer in 2008/2009 - with 11 tries. That is a team that won the premiership that year, and made the final of the Heineken Cup. Yes, Fionn Carr was top try scorer in the magners that year, and yes, that is an outstanding achievement, but it is crazy to suggest there is a massive gulf between the two players.

I agree that Johne Murphy hasn't has quite as good a season this year, but you will find that Fionn Carr's hasn't been quite as good as the previous season's high standard either.

Johne Murphy has still managed 5 tries this year in a side that hasn't exactly been free scoring. Other players you might have heard of that scored 5 tries for their club this season include: Gordan D'arcy, Shane Horgan, Isa Nacewa & Denis Hurley. Some reasonably decent players that you might have heard of that scored less than 5 tries this season includes Brian O Driscoll, Keith Earls & Doug Howlett, all with 4 tries.

You should also note that Johne Murphy scored 5 tries in a season when he only played 11 games for the full 80 minutes. His 28 caps for the year includes a game where he played for all of 1 minute, and a few games where he played less than 20 minutes.

Johne Murphy is 26, so development wise, they are both the same.

Don't take the above as Fionn Carr bashing. I rate the man highly, but if you want to argue that Johne Murphy DOES NOT deserve his place, give some reasons, will you? The 'he plays for Munster' thing is beyond old at this stage, and I'm a die hard Leinster fan.

Ciaran-Irl

chupacabra wrote: »

I dont want to hear the "Oh its because his defense is poor" argument because if you've been to any Connacht game or seen one of the handful that are shown on tv you will know that his defense isn't bad enough to warrant him being completely forgotten about for Ireland.

chupacabra wrote: »

... how the hell can Kidney justify selecting Johne Murphy over him? From what i've seen Murphy hasn't gotten much game time at all this season and seems to only have been picked because he is now a Munster player.

Like I said in another post, I rate Fionn Carr very highly, but I don't agree with the way you are speaking about Johne Murphy. He is an excellent player, and to flip the two comments above around. How many Leicester Tigers games have you been to recently? I've been to one, and watched another half dozen on TV, and I have friends that would be over there and go to more games. The man is a class player.

He is an outstanding finisher that has to fight very hard for his place in one of the top 5 teams in Europe. 16 tries in two years is a fantastic return for a 26 year old player that was largely rejected by Ireland's clubs.

Don't feel you need to bash one player as a way to show your appreciation of another.

Foxtrol

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Yeah, but Johne Murphy isn't ever going to make the bench against the All Blacks - regardless. Geordan Murphy is cover for Trimble. We're just talking about a player to go up against the Maoris and get some experience around the squad.

---

Fionn Carr very much deserves to be called up, but people are exaggerating the difference between him and Johne Murphy massively. The vague implication that Johne Murphy is a nobody that is only being picked because he signed for Munster is completely farcical. He was Leicester Tigers' top try scorer in 2008/2009 - with 11 tries. That is a team that won the premiership that year, and made the final of the Heineken Cup. Yes, Fionn Carr was top try scorer in the magners that year, and yes, that is an outstanding achievement, but it is crazy to suggest there is a massive gulf between the two players.

I agree that Johne Murphy hasn't has quite as good a season this year, but you will find that Fionn Carr's hasn't been quite as good as the previous season's high standard either.

Johne Murphy has still managed 5 tries this year in a side that hasn't exactly been free scoring. Other players you might have heard of that scored 5 tries for their club this season include: Gordan D'arcy, Shane Horgan, Isa Nacewa & Denis Hurley. Some reasonably decent players that you might have heard of that scored less than 5 tries this season includes Brian O Driscoll, Keith Earls & Doug Howlett, all with 4 tries.

You should also note that Johne Murphy scored 5 tries in a season when he only played 11 games for the full 80 minutes. His 28 caps for the year includes a game where he played for all of 1 minute, and a few games where he played less than 20 minutes.

Johne Murphy is 26, so development wise, they are both the same.

Don't take the above as Fionn Carr bashing. I rate the man highly, but if you want to argue that Johne Murphy DOES NOT deserve his place, give some reasons, will you? The 'he plays for Munster' thing is beyond old at this stage, and I'm a die hard Leinster fan.

One reason is that it sets a bad example for younger academy players from Munster, Leinster and Ulster as all it shows them is that if they go West work hard, perform well and improve their all round game the Irish coach will still prefer to pick the guy that has gone abroad and come back to Munster or Leinster.

As far I'm concerned I was making the greater point that in recent times certain players such as Hurley, Dowling, Jones have all being making the extended squads ahead of Carr even though he has been playing more and outperforming them. I cant see into the future but from Kidney's historical selections I can only make the assumption that Johne will picked ahead of Fionn even if Fionn is outperforming him week in, week out.

Ciaran-Irl

Foxtrol wrote: »

One reason is that it sets a bad example for younger academy players from Munster, Leinster and Ulster as all it shows them is that if they go West work hard, perform well and improve their all round game the Irish coach will still prefer to pick the guy that has gone abroad and come back to Munster or Leinster.

As far I'm concerned I was making the greater point that in recent times certain players such as Hurley, Dowling, Jones have all being making the extended squads ahead of Carr even though he has been playing more and outperforming them. I cant see into the future but from Kidney's historical selections I can only make the assumption that Johne will picked ahead of Fionn even if Fionn is outperforming him week in, week out.

I'm just arguing the point that Johne Murphy has a strong case for inclusion. I am not saying anything at all about Fionn Carr to be honest.

As far as I recall, Felix Jones has never made an extended squad. I don't remember when Dowling or Hurley might have gotten call ups, though I really don't have a recollection of them getting very close to the primary squad.

Yes, I would certainly say that Fionn Carr should be ahead of Felix Jones & Dowling. Hurley is a solid winger that can play in other positions (centre & full back), so is a good squad player to have for practice sessions. I can see why he would make extended squads over another fringe player. If I had to pick a winger out of Hurley, Jones, Carr and Dowling to start in the morning, I would go for Fionn Carr.

I'd be torn between Fionn Carr and Johne Murphy to be honest. Lets be fair, he isn't the mesiah or anything.

I don't have a problem with Murphy touring. He's a good winger. He has shown that for quite a few seasons at Leicester (Although his dropped pass in the H Cup semis last year was attrocious, and but for a drop kicking nightmare from M.Williams, could've cost Leicester a place in the final).

H Cup experience simply should not be a prerequisite to feature in the Ireland squad. I'm more interested in form, guile, attitude than I am in whether or not a player's appeared in a competition that his team would struggle severely in. Parisse's experience in the 6N is an astounding number of defeats, and a few choice scalps, yet he would walk into a lot of teams (:D We're lucky with Jamie).

Its awful to expect a player to have to carry the weight of his whole team's performance over the course of a season to be able to make an Irish appearance.

It boggles the mind that he hasn't had a look in. The question that I always seem unable to find answers for, What more does Fionn Carr need to do to make an Irish Squad?

Foxtrol

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'm just arguing the point that Johne Murphy has a strong case for inclusion. I am not saying anything at all about Fionn Carr to be honest.

As far as I recall, Felix Jones has never made an extended squad. I don't remember when Dowling or Hurley might have gotten call ups, though I really don't have a recollection of them getting very close to the primary squad.

Yes, I would certainly say that Fionn Carr should be ahead of Felix Jones & Dowling. Hurley is a solid winger that can play in other positions (centre & full back), so is a good squad player to have for practice sessions. I can see why he would make extended squads over another fringe player. If I had to pick a winger out of Hurley, Jones, Carr and Dowling to start in the morning, I would go for Fionn Carr.

I'd be torn between Fionn Carr and Johne Murphy to be honest. Lets be fair, he isn't the mesiah or anything.

Apologies, I meant that they all made the extended training camps at times when Carr was left out. Its not really an issue of Murphy who is just the unfortunate scapegoat due to his selection ahead of Carr, who's at a similar level to him.

I think it boils down to what is rightly or wrongly perceived again as Kidney's Munster bias. Fionn may not be the messiah but from an outsiders perspective it looks as if no matter what the guy does, how many tries he scores or how much he improves his game, Kidney continually ignores him in favor of Munster players with similar or lesser ability. I'll add that I'd be making the same point if the likes of Simon Keogh or Dave Kearney were being selected ahead of him but the simple fact is that they're not and the Munster lads are.

thehighground

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have a problem with Murphy touring. He's a good winger. He has shown that for quite a few seasons at Leicester (Although his dropped pass in the H Cup semis last year was attrocious, and but for a drop kicking nightmare from M.Williams, could've cost Leicester a place in the final).

H Cup experience simply should not be a prerequisite to feature in the Ireland squad. I'm more interested in form, guile, attitude than I am in whether or not a player's appeared in a competition that his team would struggle severely in. Parisse's experience in the 6N is an astounding number of defeats, and a few choice scalps, yet he would walk into a lot of teams (:D We're lucky with Jamie).

Its awful to expect a player to have to carry the weight of his whole team's performance over the course of a season to be able to make an Irish appearance.

It boggles the mind that he hasn't had a look in. The question that I always seem unable to find answers for, What more does Fionn Carr need to do to make an Irish Squad?

Parisse also captains a Top 14 club that regularly makes it to the Heineken Cup QFs/Semis at least.

Murphy & Carr are quite similar (not making it in Leinster). Murphy took the harder route of going to a Top Club like Leicester with serious competition to get into the side where he was their Player of the Year (not young player mind), 2 years ago, and was their Top try scorer last season (with 11). He also seemed to have been their first choice winger until he signed for Munster (where he willing to take on another challenge to make the side).

All things being equal, maybe its Murphy's willingness to have a go and challenge himself that might swing his inclusion ahead of Carr (along with his greater experience - i.e., Churchill Cup, Ireland 'A's & he was in the Leicester team that beat SA.

btw, does anyone know if Munster offered Carr a contract (before Murphy) and if they did, why did he turn it down?

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

Parisse also captains a Top 14 club that regularly makes it to the Heineken Cup QFs/Semis at least.

Murphy & Carr are quite similar (not making it in Leinster). Murphy took the harder route of going to a Top Club like Leicester with serious competition to get into the side where he was their Player of the Year (not young player mind), 2 years ago, and was their Top try scorer last season (with 11). He also seemed to have been their first choice winger until he signed for Munster (where he willing to take on another challenge to make the side).

All things being equal, maybe its Murphy's willingness to have a go and challenge himself that might swing his inclusion ahead of Carr (along with his greater experience - i.e., Churchill Cup, Ireland 'A's & he was in the Leicester team that beat SA.

btw, does anyone know if Munster offered Carr a contract (before Murphy) and if they did, why did he turn it down?

If you're going to penalise guys for playing abroad should you not also reward guys who go West and perform? I honestly think its more of a "Challenge" to go to a team which takes a hammering every week and still score trys then to go to one of the biggest teams in Europe. Fionn's lack of experience in the Churchill Cup and Ireland A's is also down to the lack of opportunities given to him by the Irish management team.

I dont know about Fionn being offered a contract by Munster but if he turned it down it was probably in the hopes of getting another chance at Leinster. Not to sound derogatory but Johne did always seem more of a "Lunster" then Fionn.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you're going to penalise guys for playing abroad should you not also reward guys who go West and perform? I honestly think its more of a "Challenge" to go to a team which takes a hammering every week and still score trys then to go to one of the biggest teams in Europe. Fionn's lack of experience in the Churchill Cup and Ireland A's is also down to the lack of opportunities given to him by the Irish management team.

I dont know about Fionn being offered a contract by Munster but if he turned it down it was probably in the hopes of getting another chance at Leinster. Not to sound derogatory but Johne did always seem more of a "Lunster" then Fionn.

I think coaches rate highly being part of a winning culture where defeat is not acceptable. Tommy Bowe has spoken how moving to the Ospreys was so good for him because he was easily Ulster's best player and he wasn't challenged. Moving to the Ospreys took him out of his comfort zone and he felt he needed that to progress to the player he is now.

Fionn started the first game in the Churchill Cup last year and he was dropped for Denis Hurley (I gather because of his poor defense from posts above). He also got a game in the Ireland A in February and was dropped again (for Murphy), so how you can claim he didn't get a chance, I don't know!

If he turned down a chance to play for Munster for the reasons stated he is a very stupid boy (if it was out of loyalty to Connacht fairplay, but he wasn't thinking straight).

Ciaran-Irl

thehighground wrote: »

Murphy & Carr are quite similar (not making it in Leinster). Murphy took the harder route of going to a Top Club like Leicester with serious competition to get into the side where he was their Player of the Year (not young player mind), 2 years ago, and was their Top try scorer last season (with 11). He also seemed to have been their first choice winger until he signed for Munster (where he willing to take on another challenge to make the side).

All things being equal, maybe its Murphy's willingness to have a go and challenge himself that might swing his inclusion ahead of Carr (along with his greater experience - i.e., Churchill Cup, Ireland 'A's & he was in the Leicester team that beat SA.

thehighground wrote: »

I think coaches rate highly being part of a winning culture where defeat is not acceptable. Tommy Bowe has spoken how moving to the Ospreys was so good for him because he was easily Ulster's best player and he wasn't challenged. Moving to the Ospreys took him out of his comfort zone and he felt he needed that to progress to the player he is now.

Great posts. These points make an awful lot of sense. Far more than the 'kidney always picks Munster players' bull****.

I can imagine that Kidney rates the ambition of Murphy highly. I know I would. It would be a risk for Fionn Carr to move to a much bigger club where he would have to fight for his place. In a sense, the safe option is to stay put where he will always be the big fish in the relatively small pond. Duffy and Muldoon are both UCG lads, so staying at their home province makes much more sense for them. In a way, it would be great for Carr go to a Premiership club, or even better, sign for a super 15/Top 14 club. Not that I would like to see Connacht weakened.

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

I think coaches rate highly being part of a winning culture where defeat is not acceptable. Tommy Bowe has spoken how moving to the Ospreys was so good for him because he was easily Ulster's best player and he wasn't challenged. Moving to the Ospreys took him out of his comfort zone and he felt he needed that to progress to the player he is now.

Fionn started the first game in the Churchill Cup last year and he was dropped for Denis Hurley (I gather because of his poor defense from posts above). He also got a game in the Ireland A in February and was dropped again (for Murphy), so how you can claim he didn't get a chance, I don't know!

If he turned down a chance to play for Munster for the reasons stated he is a very stupid boy (if it was out of loyalty to Connacht fairplay, but he wasn't thinking straight).

I agree on the winning culture but the IRFU and Kidney need to decide on whether they still want to work off the premise that players who stay in Ireland are going to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to 50/50 calls or not. This excuse seems to rolled out when it suits but ignored just as quickly when needs be.

I didnt see much of the Churchill cup last year but it seems a bit unfair to drop a player for the tournament after one poor defensive showing. I did see the Irish A game and he looked like one of the most dangerous player on the pitch every time he got the ball. I couldnt explain why he was dropped after that match.

If Cronin was offered a contract from Leinster would you also class him as a stupid boy for not taking it up? Wanting to live, play and prove yourself in your own province is not just a trait that solely comes from Munster. On the other hand Cronin has no problems getting into the Irish squad even though he is still lacking in several facets of his game and has no Heineken Cup experience. Apart from Fionn doing something to upset Kideny or Kidenys general Munster (or players he knows) bias I cant see reasons why Fionn has been consistently ignored.

Foxtrol

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Great posts. These points make an awful lot of sense. Far more than the 'kidney always picks Munster players' bull****.

I can imagine that Kidney rates the ambition of Murphy highly. I know I would. It would be a risk for Fionn Carr to move to a much bigger club where he would have to fight for his place. In a sense, the safe option is to stay put where he will always be the big fish in the relatively small pond. Duffy and Muldoon are both UCG lads, so staying at their home province makes much more sense for them. In a way, it would be great for Carr go to a Premiership club, or even better, sign for a super 15/Top 14 club. Not that I would like to see Connacht weakened.

So do we reward players who stay in the country and play for Connacht or reward players who are at a similar level and move abroad for game time? Cullen, Jennings and to a lesser extent Ross seem to be still suffering for moving abroad and coming back. Why is Johne treated differently? Again I'm not attacking Johne as I hope he goes on to be a class player (not against Leinster I'll add) but its just another example of excuses being given when its clear that Kidney for whatever reason is not giving Carr a fair chance.

Ciaran-Irl

Foxtrol wrote: »

On the other hand Cronin has no problems getting into the Irish squad even though he is still lacking in several facets of his game and has no Heineken Cup experience. Apart from Fionn doing something to upset Kideny or Kidenys general Munster (or players he knows) bias I cant see reasons why Fionn has been consistently ignored.

Cronin is a very good player in a position that we have shag all depth in. Fionn
Carr is a very good player in a position where we are spoilt for choice - unfortunately for him...

Ciaran-Irl

Foxtrol wrote: »

So do we reward players who stay in the country and play for Connacht or reward players who are at a similar level and move abroad for game time? Cullen, Jennings and to a lesser extent Ross seem to be still suffering for moving abroad and coming back. Why is Johne treated differently? Again I'm not attacking Johne as I hope he goes on to be a class player (not against Leinster I'll add) but its just another example of excuses being given when its clear that Kidney for whatever reason is not giving Carr a fair chance.

It's a good question you have there to be honest. I'm not sure what the answer is really. In a 50/50 call, I'd go for the Irish player. But as the World Cup approaches, if the player playing abroad was slightly better, I would have to go for him. I think.

I realize the downsides to that mind you, so I'm not sure.

You can of course say that Murphy is back at an Irish province now, so he will just pick based on his appraisal of the two players, which I believe is a very tight call. Before you say it though, he isn't really back at an Irish province just yet, I know.

Foxtrol

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

It's a good question you have there to be honest. I'm not sure what the answer is really. In a 50/50 call, I'd go for the Irish player. But as the World Cup approaches, if the player playing abroad was slightly better, I would have to go for him. I think.

I realize the downsides to that mind you, so I'm not sure.

You can of course say that Murphy is back at an Irish province now, so he will just pick based on his appraisal of the two players, which I believe is a very tight call. Before you say it though, he isn't really back at an Irish province just yet, I know.

And this one call alone would be acceptable if looked at on its own but when you add in the fact that Fionn is also consistently left out extended training squads and "A" games shows that he really isn't getting fairly treated. As Louisa Nice Vent rightly asked:What more does Fionn Carr need to do to make an Irish Squad? aside from leaving Connacht??

Shelflife

I think that the big question here is how did horgan get picked ahead of murphy and carr, at 32 and really playing crap rugby since he came back from injury.there is no way in hell he should be near the palne in the first place.

id rate murphy and carr ahead of him.

the experience of travelling would have stood to carr i believe.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

So do we reward players who stay in the country and play for Connacht or reward players who are at a similar level and move abroad for game time? Cullen, Jennings and to a lesser extent Ross seem to be still suffering for moving abroad and coming back. Why is Johne treated differently? Again I'm not attacking Johne as I hope he goes on to be a class player (not against Leinster I'll add) but its just another example of excuses being given when its clear that Kidney for whatever reason is not giving Carr a fair chance.

I think you have to look at the club they are playing at as well - there is a huge difference at being a success at Connacht (Ranked 31 in Europe) and being a success at Leicester (Ranked 4 in Europe). Cullen & Jennings are unfortunate as they are behind 3 British & Irish Lions. Jennings has made the bench and Cullen would be starting with DOC if he wasn't having an operation.

Carr got his chances in the Churchhill Cup last season and in the 'A' games earlier on - he more than likely just missed the RWC boat last summer when Kidney & Co took all the fringe players like Carr & Murphy to the US & Canada and the Churchill Cup).

Carr had two good games against Leinster this season, but he certainly didn't look that great against a second string Munster side at home in April, and as far as I can remember, Kidney was at that match as well.

With regard to Cronin's ambition - unlike Carr, Cronin wasn't rejected by Munster - he went to Connacht to get game time. But if Varley keeps improving as much as he is, you might well see Cronin signing for Leinster yet.

btw, Ross was rejected by Munster in the first place when Kidney was coach. He like Cheika obviously doesn't rate him.

anonymous_joe

Hmmm. This one is beginning to smell.

The only possible reasoning I can think of here is that there's something personal between the two of them, a la Best.

Carr's a very good try scorer.

Perhaps we're all being overly paranoid and it's that simple - Carr scores tries. Ireland don't try to. Why bring him?

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

I think you have to look at the club they are playing at as well - there is a huge difference at being a success at Connacht (Ranked 31 in Europe) and being a success at Leicester (Ranked 4 in Europe). Cullen & Jennings are unfortunate as they are behind 3 British & Irish Lions. Jennings has made the bench and Cullen would be starting with DOC if he wasn't having an operation.

Cullen was dropped during the 6 nations even though he was one of/if not the best player when he was on the pitch. Again this is a side issue and this one example can be explained but when you add up all the times he's been overlooked you start to see a pattern.

Carr got his chances in the Churchhill Cup last season and in the 'A' games earlier on - he more than likely just missed the RWC boat last summer when Kidney & Co took all the fringe players like Carr & Murphy to the US & Canada and the Churchill Cup).

He got chances on both occasions and then was promptly dropped. One occasion for poor defense and the other is quite unexplained. Again no matter what he seems to do he cant get ahead.

Carr had two good games against Leinster this season, but he certainly didn't look that great against a second string Munster side at home in April, and as far as I can remember, Kidney was at that match as well.

Even though he didnt have as good a season as last year he still scored a ridiculous amount of try's for a player playing on one of the worst teams in the ML. Most of the Connacht team underperformed against the Munster seconds. Hardly a massive indictment on him especially when he still looked threatening.

With regard to Cronin's ambition - unlike Carr, Cronin wasn't rejected by Munster - he went to Connacht to get game time. But if Varley keeps improving as much as he is, you might well see Cronin signing for Leinster yet.

They both went for game time. I'm sure Carr and Keatley were told that if they performed well they'd be welcomed back when places arose. (Hickie, Swerve have both retired since then and Horgans and Keogh are on their way out). If that doesn't work out then you also might see Carr in Red. You cant blame either player for holding out for their first choice.

btw, Ross was rejected by Munster in the first place when Kidney was coach. He like Cheika obviously doesn't rate him.

Like Murphy he went over to the Premiership and excelled, being named on the team of the year. Next season will be make or break for him at Leinster now with a new coach, CJ is gone and Healy being away for a good proportion of the season.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Hmmm. This one is beginning to smell.

The only possible reasoning I can think of here is that there's something personal between the two of them, a la Best.

Carr's a very good try scorer.

Perhaps we're all being overly paranoid and it's that simple - Carr scores tries. Ireland don't try to. Why bring him?

Maybe you should check out first who he scores tries against (7 in the Magners). With the exception of Leinster when he scored two, the rest of the opposition has either been poor (like Worcester in the Amlin) or 2nd string at home. He didn't score against teams like Ulster or Toulon (teams Connacht needed a win against).

He did score against Edinburgh in Edinburgh - after they had scored 7 trys against Connacht and had obviously gone to sleep.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

Cullen was dropped during the 6 nations even though he was one of/if not the best player when he was on the pitch. Again this is a side issue and this one example can be explained but when you add up all the times he's been overlooked you start to see a pattern.

Cullen isn't as good a player as POC - the fact that POC was been given pain killing injections to get him on the pitch for the 6Ns shows how highly he is rated by the Irish management - that is no bad reflection on Cullen. Its just unfortunate that he is behind POC & POC & DOC have a long established partnership.

He got chances on both occasions and then was promptly dropped. One occasion for poor defense and the other is quite unexplained. Again no matter what he seems to do he cant get ahead.

So we can now agree that he got a chance and it didn't work out for him!

Even though he didnt have as good a season as last year he still scored a ridiculous amount of try's for a player playing on one of the worst teams in the ML. Most of the Connacht team underperformed against the Munster seconds. Hardly a massive indictment on him especially when he still looked threatening.

Most teams send 2nd string teams to Connacht. His 2 tries against Leinster is more down to a very bad day in the office and complacency for Leinster than anything else.

They both went for game time. I'm sure Carr and Keatley were told that if they performed well they'd be welcomed back when places arose. (Hickie, Swerve have both retired since then and Horgans and Keogh are on their way out). If that doesn't work out then you also might see Carr in Red. You cant blame either player for holding out for their first choice.

Connacht came with an offer after Carr was released by Leinster. Keatley apparently, didn't get on with Cheika.

Carr went to Connacht with the knowledge that Hickie had retired (2007).

Like Murphy he went over to the Premiership and excelled, being named on the team of the year. Next season will be make or break for him at Leinster now with a new coach, CJ is gone and Healy being away for a good proportion of the season.

I don't think Mike Ross has much of a future with Leinster, unfortunately. And there is a huge difference in the standard at Leicester and most other English clubs. Leicester are always there, or there abouts.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Maybe you should check out first who he scores tries against (7 in the Magners). With the exception of Leinster when he scored two, the rest of the opposition has either been poor (like Worcester in the Amlin) or 2nd string at home. He didn't score against teams like Ulster or Toulon (teams Connacht needed a win against).

He did score against Edinburgh in Edinburgh - after they had scored 7 trys against Connacht and had obviously gone to sleep.

True enough, but I do feel obliged to point out that a lot of our top players scored less tries, often against the same or similar opposition.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

True enough, but I do feel obliged to point out that a lot of our top players scored less tries, often against the same or similar opposition.

Most teams will field a full strength team though when playing the top teams like Ospreys, Munster or Leinster.

(As a Man Utd fan, you will probably remember Roy Keane claiming that if every team played as well against each other as they did against Utd, they would all be world beaters )

David900

thehighground wrote: »

I think coaches rate highly being part of a winning culture where defeat is not acceptable. Tommy Bowe has spoken how moving to the Ospreys was so good for him because he was easily Ulster's best player and he wasn't challenged. Moving to the Ospreys took him out of his comfort zone and he felt he needed that to progress to the player he is now.

thehighground wrote: »

Maybe you should check out first who he scores tries against (7 in the Magners). With the exception of Leinster when he scored two, the rest of the opposition has either been poor (like Worcester in the Amlin) or 2nd string at home. He didn't score against teams like Ulster or Toulon (teams Connacht needed a win against).

I think these two points are interesting. He isn't part of a winning culture and I would separate the backs from the forwards in this respect within the Connacht set up. In the Toulon game when the forwards such as Cronin had made some great breaks and had a large amount of possession in the last 15 minutes and were camped on the Toulon line at least twice, the backs were unable to convert this which I don't think is solely down to the Toulon defence. He didn't score where it counted.

In respect to the Kidney argument I think he is taking a chance with Cronin this weekend. Ireland score a good amount of their scores off set pieces which is probably the weakest part of Cronin's game. Fogarty probably would have been the safer option for this game but Cronin is given his chance. I think a lot of these discussions about Fionn Carr and Kidney are thrown out of proportion.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Most teams will field a full strength team though when playing the top teams like Ospreys, Munster or Leinster.

(As a Man Utd fan, you will probably remember Roy Keane claiming that if every team played as well against each other as they did against Utd, they would all be world beaters )

Ah yeah, that is true. Certainly, the Fionn Carr who plays Leinster is not a player I'd have ever let leave.

Either way though, we're one of the worst teams for try scoring in the world, so more lads who look to actually score wouldn't go amiss.

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

Cullen isn't as good a player as POC - the fact that POC was been given pain killing injections to get him on the pitch for the 6Ns shows how highly he is rated by the Irish management - that is no bad reflection on Cullen. Its just unfortunate that he is behind POC & POC & DOC have a long established partnership.

POC has been a shadow of himself recently. Cullen performed well preformed well during the 6 nations need to break up that partnership as they were gelling quite well. Off topic anyway.

So we can now agree that he got a chance and it didn't work out for him!

I agree he got games but was then dropped straight away on both occasions. I wouldnt class dropping a player when he plays well giving him a chance.

Most teams send 2nd string teams to Connacht. His 2 tries against Leinster is more down to a very bad day in the office and complacency for Leinster than anything else.

You can only score against whats in front of you. He's always had a good try scoring record since his school days so I think its more down to him being a natural finisher rather than who he's playing against.

Connacht came with an offer after Carr was released by Leinster. Keatley apparently, didn't get on with Cheika.

Do you know Fionn was released for a fact or did were they both told to go off for a few years to get game time (like Cronin) in the view of potentially coming back if they performed well? There's no point in making assumptions either way unless you know for a fact.

Carr went to Connacht with the knowledge that Hickie had retired (2007).

Damn got my years wrong. That would still mean that Isa and Keogh were signed as they were leaving, Luke was getting games and bench time and Kearney was playing a lot of time on the wing. (Pretty sure ive the correct timeline now). It could make sense for him to come back home next season when Shaggy probably retires.

I don't think Mike Ross has much of a future with Leinster, unfortunately. And there is a huge difference in the standard at Leicester and most other English clubs. Leicester are always there, or there abouts.

As I said its make or break for him.

I dont think we're going to agree on this so it might be best not to argue round in circles over it. I really do think that barring pure bias from Kidney there has to be some issue between the two of them for Carr to be ignored so often. You can argue each individual selection, or lack there of, but when they're all put together there has to be something we dont know.

thehighground

Foxtrol wrote: »

POC has been a shadow of himself recently. Cullen performed well preformed well during the 6 nations need to break up that partnership as they were gelling quite well. Off topic anyway.

Cullen may have performed well as an individual, but POC & DOC compliment each other better. There is a reason why Leinster brough Nathan Hines to Leinster!

I agree he got games but was then dropped straight away on both occasions. I wouldnt class dropping a player when he plays well giving him a chance.

You have very confused thinking. He came out 2nd best to not only Murphy, but also to Hurley as well & Felix Jones.

You can only score against whats in front of you. He's always had a good try scoring record since his school days so I think its more down to him being a natural finisher rather than who he's playing against.

I seem to remember hear Carr say that Kidney had told him the things he would have to improve on and he was working on them. As far as I remembere defense and positioning were among those things.

Do you know Fionn was released for a fact or did were they both told to go off for a few years to get game time (like Cronin) in the view of potentially coming back if they performed well? There's no point in making assumptions either way unless you know for a fact.

In Carr's own words:

“I spoke to Cheika. I told him I was going to Connacht and there was really only a couple of words said and that was it,” says Carr. “When I was in Leinster there were only big names and you were trying to break through. The chance to get to Connacht came . . I’m glad I took it. I jumped at it.

“There was game time on the table and that’s what I really needed to improve at that level and to be recognised at that level. The more games I got under my belt, the more experience I got and it would all follow through. I thought I’d be able to improve certain aspects of my game in the Magners League and Europe so definitely I’m happy I committed to Connacht.

Now when Felix Jones told Cheika he was leaving, Cheika went ballistic (and I presume it was because he rated Jones and not some silly provincial rivalry).

Damn got my years wrong. That would still mean that Isa and Keogh were signed as they were leaving, Luke was getting games and bench time and Kearney was playing a lot of time on the wing. (Pretty sure ive the correct timeline now). It could make sense for him to come back home next season when Shaggy probably retires.

It will be interesting to see if it happens. But I doubt it.

I dont think we're going to agree on this so it might be best not to argue round in circles over it. I really do think that barring pure bias from Kidney there has to be some issue between the two of them for Carr to be ignored so often. You can argue each individual selection, or lack there of, but when they're all put together there has to be something we dont know.

Carr is a bit unlucky because there are so many talented backs coming through.

Foxtrol

thehighground wrote: »

Cullen may have performed well as an individual, but POC & DOC compliment each other better. There is a reason why Leinster brough Nathan Hines to Leinster!

Cullen hasnt been given an opportunity to gel with either which will lead to issues if either are injured before a big game. Off topic anyway.

You have very confused thinking. He came out 2nd best to not only Murphy, but also to Hurley as well & Felix Jones.

No i dont. He was dropped during the Churchill for having a bad game yet he had quite a good game against the Saxons during the 6 nations with dowling on the other wing, who had a complete shocker. Guess what happened? Dowling gets kept on for the Scotland game while Carr is dropped.

I seem to remember hear Carr say that Kidney had told him the things he would have to improve on and he was working on them. As far as I remembere defense and positioning were among those things.

From what I've seen on tv and what the connacht lads have said here, he's improved in both facets of his game. Still no call up.

In Carr's own words:

“I spoke to Cheika. I told him I was going to Connacht and there was really only a couple of words said and that was it,” says Carr. “When I was in Leinster there were only big names and you were trying to break through. The chance to get to Connacht came . . I’m glad I took it. I jumped at it.

“There was game time on the table and that’s what I really needed to improve at that level and to be recognised at that level. The more games I got under my belt, the more experience I got and it would all follow through. I thought I’d be able to improve certain aspects of my game in the Magners League and Europe so definitely I’m happy I committed to Connacht.

Those few words could have been: "yeah I've actually signed some lads for some experience and cover so it would probably be good for you to get some game time and come back in a few years a better player". He could also have said "yeah no worries, you're s**te". We dont really know so theres no point in guessing.

Now when Felix Jones told Cheika he was leaving, Cheika went ballistic (and I presume it was because he rated Jones and not some silly provincial rivalry).

Im sure Cheika would have taken it much better if Jones had said he was heading West for game time and will come back in a year or two when Dempsey/Horgan retires or Isa leaves. Cheika knew that him going to Munster meant that he was losing a talented youngster who Leinster had put a lot of effort and time in training with no chance of him returning.

It will be interesting to see if it happens. But I doubt it.

I'd say he'll be moving somewhere at the end of next season anyway.

Carr is a bit unlucky because there are so many talented backs coming through.

True. It could be a string of coincidences that always seem to go against him. However, from my where I'm looking at it, while wearing my conspiracy hat, there has to be something deeper going on that we dont know about.

I think at this stage we might as well agree to disagree as it looks like neither of us is for turning. Lets just hope he keeps improving for his and Connachts sake.

outwest

thehighground wrote: »

Most teams will field a full strength team though when playing the top teams like Ospreys, Munster or Leinster.

(As a Man Utd fan, you will probably remember Roy Keane claiming that if every team played as well against each other as they did against Utd, they would all be world beaters )

highground u argument is pathethic, carrs only scored 7 trys in the magner but against poor oposition, the other irish player didnt score against them, carr is part of a poor backline and still scores trys

[Jackass]

Johnny Wilkinson had barely ANY Heineken Cup exeperience when he kicked a winning drop goal in the world cup final and was regarded as one of the best out halfs in the world.

Brian O'Driscoll hadn't even set foot on a rugby pitch with te senior Leinster team when he was selected to tour with Ireland and then capped in a test match against Australia.

If you've got the talent, you should get selected. I think it's a farce that Fionn Carr hasn't even been given the oppertunity to tour and prove himself in training.