More cuts

gaeilgegrinds1

Reading yesterday's papers today...sign of the times in my life! Strong signs another big cut to happen for us in December. What are yer views on this? I just feel hurt about it, I never caused any of the damage, bankers, politicians etc get off scot-free.

drusk

It looks like the croke park deal is gonna come through.

I thought that meant we won't get any more cuts?

jaffa20

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

I never caused any of the damage, bankers, politicians etc get off scot-free.

Work in a bank myself and i never did anything either. Not permanent, no job security. Baisc salary, pay freezes all round and no bonuses. Pay levy just like everyone else in the private sector but i'm still getting on with my life.

Toto Wolfcastle

In fairness, many people who work in banks did nothing wrong. I know of many people who work in banks and a lot of them are feeling the pain. Some of them are not, but they mainly work for successful (and non-Irish) banks.

I have heard nothing about further cuts but then I tend to stay away from stories about cuts. If it's going to happen it's going to happen.

dlofnep

jaffa20 wrote: »

Work in a bank myself and i never did anything either. Not permanent, no job security. Baisc salary, pay freezes all round and no bonuses. Pay levy just like everyone else in the private sector but i'm still getting on with my life.

The OP didn't mention anything about pay freezes. They specifically mentioned cuts. More cuts is just plain wrong, and I'm not even a lecturer. People invest on average 8 years in college to be considered for a position to lecture, that's not including other experience. They are entitled to earn a good living. More cuts will just kill incentives for people to further their education. Why spend 8 years pursuing a PhD when the Government is just going to take it all away from you?

All this "I don't have security in the private sector" doesn't matter. It's a red herring and is deflecting from the obvious attacks on wages of lecturers.

jaffa20

dlofnep wrote: »

The OP didn't mention anything about pay freezes. They specifically mentioned cuts. More cuts is just plain wrong, and I'm not even a lecturer. People invest on average 8 years in college to be considered for a position to lecture, that's not including other experience. They are entitled to earn a good living. More cuts will just kill incentives for people to further their education. Why spend 8 years pursuing a PhD when the Government is just going to take it all away from you?

All this "I don't have security in the private sector" doesn't matter. It's a red herring and is deflecting from the obvious attacks on wages of lecturers.

Many of my friends are fully qualified to teach yet are on the dole and cannot find any work. Lots of work is being carried out by retired teachers returning to do a few hours in the local schools which is ridiculous and we have teachers in full time work with a nice wage much higher than the average starting out salary of a graduate in other areas so i'm sorry if i don't feel bad abou the pay cuts as many of my friends would be happy to work for the minimum wage as a teacher to gain experience.

The only people i sympathise with here with public service pay cuts are the lower level clerical workers in the civil service who are truly struggling.

dlofnep

jaffa20 wrote: »

Many of my friends are fully qualified to teach yet are on the dole and cannot find any work.

Red Herring. Absolutely nothing to do with pay-cuts. Using that logic, you could justify fully qualified lecturers being cut to the minimum wage.

jaffa20 wrote: »

we have teachers in full time work with a nice wage much higher than the average starting out salary of a graduate in other areas

Pay cuts don't only affect those who are "just starting out". They also affect people who have invested their life into their career, and are now struggling with their mortgage because of paycuts.

jaffa20 wrote: »

so i'm sorry if i don't feel bad abou the pay cuts as many of my friends would be happy to work for the minimum wage as a teacher to gain experience.

I'm sure they would - but that doesn't mean that people who have spent years in education, at a great cost to themselves should be forced to work for the minimum wage. All these cuts will kill many incentives for progressing on in education.

People should be paid a fair wage for a fair day's work. If I spent 1000's on my education, and I then go out into the workforce, where the pay is being cut drastically at no fault of those who are being cut - then it's going to force me, and many others to emigrate.

gaeilgegrinds1

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

I just feel hurt about it, I never caused any of the damage, bankers, politicians etc get off scot-free.

Even if we had the best banking system in the world the fact remains that
current expenditure > current income

So even if the billions were not poured into the banks, we'd still be borrowing 400 million a week to pay current expenditure.

Tax take for the last few years was based on a bubble. And now that we are paying more realistic taxes (people are still paying income tax, VAT and duties, etc), it simply isn't enough to meet current expenditure.

And so tax rates must increase while expenditure comes down. Simples

smcgiff

salonfire wrote: »

Tax take for the last few years was based on a bubble.

A.) Its scary how much this is true. Capital Gains tax pretty much fuelled public sector spending/capital projects. And now this is gone and gone for a very long time.

B.) Its even more scary how some people think this reality should/will not impact them!

smcgiff

smcgiff wrote: »

B.) Its even more scary how some people think this reality should/will not impact them!

Yes it is impacting everyone and will continue to do so for a long time. A country, any country, has to live within its means.

Would those objecting to any changes to their conditions rather that we carried on as it was? Sell, sell, sell - all based on reckless banks throwing (German & French!) money into our economy? All built on a solid foundation of credit :rolleyes:

gaeilgegrinds1

It has impacted on us though. I'm down 80-90 a week. I've no problem paying my fair share. Bottom line is MY income was never higher than my expenditure, so now I'm paying for the msitakes of others.

Toto Wolfcastle

What you need to understand is that many people, including those who work in banks, are paying for the mistakes of others. Yes, maybe those high up in banks are not paying for their own mistakes, and that's wrong, but hopefully with the release of the reports into the crises that can be changed. But I know people who work in banks who had nothing to do with what's happening and who go in everyday to a terrible atmosphere and who worry about losing their jobs everyday.

Those who work in companies that are doing well don't feel the pain. (Although there are always exceptions and some companies that are doing well cutting well back.) Those who work in companies that aren't doing well do feel the pain. We are paid by the government. The government is not doing well. We suffer. It sucks, I know it does, but that's just the way things are right now.

Powerhouse

I actually have no problem with the idea that government expenditure should be determined primarily by government income. No rational person does.

But I think people are entitled to bridle at the insinuation that the public sector workers are individually responsible for the economic situation.

I had one house in 1995. I still have the same house and only that house. I never got a new kitchen, converted the attic etc.

I had one car in 1995 and still have one car - an eight year old one.

My passport has been out of date since August 2008.

Yes, I have to acknowledge that I was probably lax in not taking a spin to Spar in Bantry and Centra in Ballybofey to compare prices before buying a tin of beans at my local Tesco in Dublin thereby creating a savage price war which would have kept inflation down. Life got in the way of my better economic instincts I have to admit.

But like many public sector workers it certainly does not feel as if I burnt the financial candle at both ends in recent times, but presumably I should know better. What galls me most of all is having to hear economic analysis from paper and television trotted out on discussion boards and in general conversation as if it were original or as if the purveyor of that opinion had the remotest understanding of it.

spurious

The cutting of the JCSP libraries from the most disadvantaged children in the country shows just what FF are, while their toady members and spouses of members dip themselves up to their necks in the greasy trough of expenses they have provided themselves with.

Toto Wolfcastle

The cutting of resources, especially resources used by disadvantaged students or students with special educational needs is scandalous. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the education system on behalf of the government. They can cut my pay all they want if they leave the most vulnerable alone.

smcgiff

Powerhouse wrote: »

But like many public sector workers it certainly does not feel as if I burnt the financial candle at both ends in recent times, but presumably I should know better.

Can I say on behalf of boards and pub stool contributors alike that we do not hold Powerhouse or her colleagues responsible for the mess the government has got the country into. You will, however, have to suffer the consequences.

Powerhouse wrote: »

What galls me most of all is having to hear economic analysis from paper and television trotted out on discussion boards and in general conversation as if it were original or as if the purveyor of that opinion had the remotest understanding of it.

You're perhaps giving into your own insecurities as a competent professional here. There are many accountants (I'm one) and economists here - - - > see relevant forum that try to articulate what we see as simple economics.

The government is broke. The government has put itself into a position where it is paying a level of wages that may give rise to a situation whereby there is a great possibility it cannot afford to pay them.

If you are angry now, then sit down. The government is broke. It is also a government of a democratic country meaning it doesn't want to take hard decisions that will piss off voters. The government is broke.

There is a distinct possibility that the cuts that have been implemented so far are only the tip of the iceberg. For a taster of what may happen to us in the next couple of years you could keep an eye on the UK. They are almost in as bad a shape as us and are at the start of the electoral cycle and so have time to dish out pain and hope the economy rebounds in time for the next election.

Our broke government, on the other hand, is hoping for a miracle. They are hoping everything turns around by external factors, because they are out of ideas and their only strategy is to keep their heads down and hope for the best.

As far as I'm concerned acceptance or not of the Croke Park deal is largely irrelevant. It would only be relevant if people think the current FF, Green coalition government have control over the destiny of this country. LOL!

Powerhouse

smcgiff wrote: »

Can I say on behalf of boards and pub stool contributors alike that we do not hold Powerhouse or her colleagues responsible for the mess the government has got the country into. You will, however, have to suffer the consequences.

You're perhaps giving into your own insecurities as a competent professional here. There are many accountants (I'm one) and economists here - - - > see relevant forum that try to articulate what we see as simple economics.

The government is broke. The government has put itself into a position where it is paying a level of wages that may give rise to a situation whereby there is a great possibility it cannot afford to pay them.

If you are angry now, then sit down. The government is broke. It is also a government of a democratic country meaning it doesn't want to take hard decisions that will piss off voters. The government is broke.

There is a distinct possibility that the cuts that have been implemented so far are only the tip of the iceberg. For a taster of what may happen to us in the next couple of years you could keep an eye on the UK. They are almost in as bad a shape as us and are at the start of the electoral cycle and so have time to dish out pain and hope the economy rebounds in time for the next election.

Our broke government, on the other hand, is hoping for a miracle. They are hoping everything turns around by external factors, because they are out of ideas and their only strategy is to keep their heads down and hope for the best.

As far as I'm concerned acceptance or not of the Croke Park deal is largely irrelevant. It would only be relevant if people think the current FF, Green coalition government have control over the destiny of this country. LOL!

This is a very stark example of what I am talking about - this verbal incontinence out there in relation to the economy.

Tom Dunne

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is a very stark example of what I am talking about - this verbal incontinence out there in relation to the economy.

And this is a very stark example of the lack of willingness of some people to accept cold hard facts.

Yolande

Think the signs are for quite substantial cuts come December. Guess that, to some extent, we're all getting on with our lives - nevertheless, it'd MAY restore one's sense of justice (not being blind to the socially and economically powerful) if those whose decisions landed us in this quagmire would take responsibility: less spin, more maturity....

Powerhouse

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And this is a very stark example of the lack of willingness of some people to accept cold hard facts.

Can you point out where I rejected cold hard facts?

If you can show where I said there should not be cuts (I am presuming these are your 'cold hards facts') I would be happy to withdraw it.

What I actually objected to strongly was unsolicited bouts of verbal diarrhoea about the economy where every idiot is boring the daylights out of us with this 'it's-much-worse-than-you-think-wait-'til-the-IMF-gets-here' mantra that he has picked up from Morgan 'we're-all-finished-and-just-remember-I-said-it-first' Kelly. This self-evident drivel is to be read in spades on the politics/economics fora and everywhere else.

I don't need a lecture on the bleeding obvious from some wannabe economist who comes across to the teaching forum during a slow day among on politically inclined wind-bags forum, thank you very much. I have no loans (save a mortgage), have not had a foreign holiday in some years, have not had a credit card since 1998ish, have not had a cheque book since 1996, have an eight-year old car.

I will not have you insinuating that I am somehow economically retarded. I have been operating under the same principle of not spending money I don't have for virtually all my life. I realise that these people have recently stumbled upon a lot of these realities and feel the need to ram down everyone else's throats. But I am sick and tired of reading the same boring old ****e.

That is all I was saying. Now, as I said at the outset, can you point out where I rejected 'cold hard facts'?

smcgiff

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And this is a very stark example of the lack of willingness of some people to accept cold hard facts.

Just an uppity Lower professional, Tom.

Trust you're still enjoying lecturing in sunnier climes, although it's not too bad here weather wise.

Toto Wolfcastle

Please refrain from getting personal. Thank you.

Tom Dunne

Powerhouse wrote: »

Can you point out where I rejected cold hard facts?

Right here:

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is a very stark example of what I am talking about - this verbal incontinence out there in relation to the economy.

Powerhouse wrote: »

What I actually objected to strongly was unsolicited bouts of verbal diarrhoea about the economy where every idiot is boring the daylights out of us with this 'it's-much-worse-than-you-think-wait-'til-the-IMF-gets-here' mantra that he has picked up from Morgan 'we're-all-finished-and-just-remember-I-said-it-first' Kelly. This self-evident drivel is to be read in spades on the politics/economics fora and everywhere else.

I don't need a lecture on the bleeding obvious from some wannabe economist who comes across to the teaching forum during a slow day among on politically inclined wind-bags forum, thank you very much. I have no loans (save a mortgage), have not had a foreign holiday in some years, have not had a credit card since 1998ish, have not had a cheque book since 1996, have an eight-year old car.

There are other forums out there. Nobody is forcing you to read Boards.ie.

Powerhouse wrote: »

I will not have you insinuating that I am somehow economically retarded.

I assume that is directed at me? If so, you are reading something from my post that is not there.

I would never call you economically retarded.

smcgiff wrote: »

Trust you're still enjoying lecturing in sunnier climes, although it's not too bad here weather wise.

Yeah can't complain, still thoroughly enjoying it.

Powerhouse

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Right here:

1) Right here: "This is a very stark example of what I am talking about - this verbal incontinence out there in relation to the economy."

2) There are other forums out there. Nobody is forcing you to read Boards.ie.

3) I assume that is directed at me? If so, you are reading something from my post that is not there.

I would never call you economically retarded.

1) That's not a rejection of cold hard facts or anything else. That is a reference to a yet another rambling pile of incoherent waffle from extremely boring and unoriginal people who cannot keep any opinion on the economy to themselves now that it has entered the realms of populism.

You should have been able to distinguish my comment on that post and a broadside on national economic policy which I never offered.

2) "Nobody is forcing you to read Boards.ie." Very mature riposte there.:rolleyes:

3) I never said you called me economically retarded. I said you insinuated it.

smcgiff

Powerhouse wrote: »

2) "Nobody is forcing you to read Boards.ie." Very mature riposte there.:rolleyes:

You may consider the contributions to the thread boring - that's your opinion, which you make very weakly (my opinion). Read the OP's first post where they requested viewpoints.

It was your posts that derailed the thrust of the thread. So, if you're not happy with this thread there are thousands of others that are hopefully up to your standards.

EoghanRua

smcgiff wrote: »

You may consider the contributions to the thread boring - that's your opinion, which you make very weakly (my opinion). Read the OP's first post where they requested viewpoints.

He wouldn't be alone is considering the contribution you made boring. In all fairness it's about as hackneyed as it gets.

That is boring. You people sound like that thing they are all blwoing into in South Africa - just a long droning noise. The point has been made a thousand times.

And Powerhouse did give his viewpoint as requested by the OP. His objection was to being ambushed by a contributor like you who has been gassing on about this for months on other forums and decides to lecture people on this one now. And he made the point very strongly in fact, which I imagine is why you were reduced to made snide remarks about teachers and took four or five days to come up with someone coherent.

smcgiff

EoghanRua wrote: »

He wouldn't be alone is considering the contribution you made boring. In all fairness it's about as hackneyed as it gets.

You see it as hackneyed - it makes it no less true. Like Powerhouse you have resorted to attacking the poster. How about attacking the points made?

EoghanRua wrote: »

His objection was to being ambushed by a contributor like you who has been gassing on about this for months on other forums and decides to lecture people on this one now. And he made the point very strongly in fact, which I imagine is why you were reduced to made snide remarks about teachers and took four or five days to come up with someone coherent.

Powerhouse derailed the comments by being snide - there was no need for it, all they needed to do was to keep it professional by attacking the ideas and not the posters. Their ideas were very poor and were largely opinions.

Also, thanks for being a follower of mine, but alas I myself don't know what comments of mine you are talking about. Whereas you've contributed 20 so far I've made more than 1,200, so you'll have to point them out. As for not replying for four days it's simply down to enjoying the good weather, and you'll see from my activity I've not been around Boards.

Now, have you any points to make regarding the OP's original post?