Surveillance cameras in Birmingham track Muslims' every move.

Run_to_da_hills

About 150 ANPR car numberplate recognition cameras installed in two Muslim areas, paid for by government anti-terrorism fund.

"Counterterrorism police have targeted hundreds of surveillance cameras on two Muslim areas of Birmingham, enabling them to track the precise movements of people entering and leaving the neighbourhoods".

If I was a Muslim living in this area I would be up in arms about it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/surveillance-cameras-birmingham-muslims

hivizman

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

About 150 ANPR car numberplate recognition cameras installed in two Muslim areas, paid for by government anti-terrorism fund.

"Counterterrorism police have targeted hundreds of surveillance cameras on two Muslim areas of Birmingham, enabling them to track the precise movements of people entering and leaving the neighbourhoods".

If I was a Muslim living in this area I would be up in arms about it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/surveillance-cameras-birmingham-muslims

"Up in arms" - with all those cameras, you'd not have to wait long to be arrested!

Seriously, though, this does seem to be an over-reaction, especially as there are more CCTV cameras in these small areas than in the centre of Birmingham.

philologos

CCTV coverage in Britain, is incredibly high as it is for anyone of any religion.

irishconvert

Moved from Islam. Not sure if suited here mods, feel free to move on if not

Run_to_da_hills

It would be my guess that Israeli intelligence / funding is behind this invasive move.

Nody

What I can't get is what they expect to get out from it. All they can see is someone walking from door A to door B; what they do in there they will have no clue over (also the fact most doors I guess would have more then 1 person in the house meaning they can't even judge who they visited).

Beyond the information overload issues and the fact all will have to be reviewed afterwards for potential follow up members of a ebil terrorist group what good is it suppose to do? Oh great there walks suicide bomber002 out of the door a week ago; see that backpack he carries that is were he had the bomb. Uh, yea, great information guys to bad you did not get it before he blew up the parlament with it.

In short I don't see a practical use for the information gathered nor a practical implementation of it that would matter.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If I was a Muslim living in this area I would be up in arms about it.

Absolutly, you'd probably bomb them.
And thats why they are there
:pac:

Nijmegen

In the UK they have proven CCTV's use, and where it's not so useful in great detail over the years, so I won't argue that point sufficed to say that I would say it is a useful tool, one amongst many employed, in the counter terrorism box over there.

To the issue of increased surveillance on Muslims in particular in the UK, I would say why not? They are, unless I am mistaken, the only group happily indiginous to the UK since their parents and grandparents moved there who have been known to commit organized acts of domestic terrorism...

Not many Sikhs are flying off to terrorist training camps. Not even dissidents in Northern Ireland have taken up a bombing campaign on the mainland, and I assure you they remain under a tight security lid since they've taken to blowing up cars outside of police stations.

The Muslim community in Britain has a hardcore element of extremeists in it who are willing to murder people on their commute to work or in airports and so forth. It is unacceptable NOT to watch for these people extremely closely.

I come back to the argument from "The Ghost", a novel in which the author was highly critical of Tony Blair but still said this:

"If I could do it all again I'd go back and we would have two aircraft for every flight. One with a security line where we just do the standard checks of old, and one where we use all the intelligence we gain from 'questionable' sources. We'll see which planes all the bleeding hearts put their kids onto."

thebaldsoprano

Nody wrote: »

In short I don't see a practical use for the information gathered nor a practical implementation of it that would matter.

It's not necessarily about the information they get though, it can also be about the possibility being seen by these cameras and the effect this has on people. Think of the telescreen in nineteen eighty-four, or going back a little further, the Panopticon devised by philosopher Jeremy Bentham. This idea goes way back before security cameras and was implemented in the architecture of some public spaces and buildings in England as far back as 1880.

Britain now has as many as 1 surveillance camera per 14 people and had until recently plans to install them inside homes as well.

Big Brother is getting a little too big it seems. If they have problems in some Muslim areas, a much better approach would be to see what can be done about integration into the community and to make sure people from these areas have good access to jobs and other opportunities IMHO.

Winty

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It would be my guess that Israeli intelligence / funding is behind this invasive move.

I agree Israel is keen to take over the world

Japer

Nijmegen wrote: »

In the UK they have proven CCTV's use, and where it's not so useful in great detail over the years, so I won't argue that point sufficed to say that I would say it is a useful tool, one amongst many employed, in the counter terrorism box over there.

To the issue of increased surveillance on Muslims in particular in the UK, I would say why not? They are, unless I am mistaken, the only group happily indiginous to the UK since their parents and grandparents moved there who have been known to commit organized acts of domestic terrorism...

Not many Sikhs are flying off to terrorist training camps. Not even dissidents in Northern Ireland have taken up a bombing campaign on the mainland, and I assure you they remain under a tight security lid since they've taken to blowing up cars outside of police stations.

The Muslim community in Britain has a hardcore element of extremeists in it who are willing to murder people on their commute to work or in airports and so forth. It is unacceptable NOT to watch for these people extremely closely.

I come back to the argument from "The Ghost", a novel in which the author was highly critical of Tony Blair but still said this:

"If I could do it all again I'd go back and we would have two aircraft for every flight. One with a security line where we just do the standard checks of old, and one where we use all the intelligence we gain from 'questionable' sources. We'll see which planes all the bleeding hearts put their kids onto."

+1 and well put. Better put than I can say myself. On the aniversary this week of D-day, one wonders what those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the 1940's would think of a Britain where now many areas are containing so many immigrants with no allegiance to the UK ? I know not all immigrants and their families can be tarred with the same brush. Will we have similar problems in Ireland in 30 years time ?

wes

Japer wrote: »

+1 and well put. Better put than I can say myself. On the aniversary this week of D-day, one wonders what those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the 1940's would think of a Britain where now many areas are containing so many immigrants with no allegiance to the UK ? I know not all immigrants and their families can be tarred with the same brush. Will we have similar problems in Ireland in 30 years time ?

You do realize that a lot of the imigrants Great Grand parents, fought in that war as well, for example:

India in World War II

Nijmegen

This is not a racial issue at all. If people want to integrate into a society, feel free. The issue is with the people who are not integrating, and whom go on to attack civilians going about their business.

Japer

wes wrote: »

You do realize that a lot of the immigrants Great Grand parents, fought in that war as well,

I am very well aware that some of the immigrants grandparents fought in that war as well. I did say "I know not all immigrants and their families can be tarred with the same brush.". You mention India.....I doubt if any of the people who bombed the London underground, conspired to cause other explosions, tried to detonate shoe bombs, or who rammed Glasgow air terminal had grandparents who were Indian, never mind fought in WW2.

If there was no need for the surveilance cameras they would not be there. Given so many attacks by muslim extremists, I am glad they are there. If the muslim extremists do not like them, why do they not go back to their own countries, the countries which they give their allegiance to ? Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from extra security....except the extra cost they have to pay ....all because some extremists have struck before and threaten to strike again.

wes

Japer wrote: »

I am very well aware that some of the immigrants grandparents fought in that war as well. I did say "I know not all immigrants and their families can be tarred with the same brush.". You mention India.....I doubt if any of the people who bombed the London underground, conspired to cause other explosions, tried to detonate shoe bombs, or who rammed Glasgow air terminal had grandparents who were Indian, never mind fought in WW2.

The vast majority of British Muslims (the group we are talking about in this thread) are all from India, Pakistan, and Bangledesh. During World War 2, what we call India, Pakistan and Bangledesh, were all one country called India. Now, as for the 7/7 bombers, I have no idea if they had grand parents in World War 2, its certainly possible. Just as possible as a say a member of the BNP having a grand parent who fought in that war. What difference does it make if they had a Grand parent or another ancestor fight in that war? Honestly, why does it matter either way whose ancestors fought in which war exactly? Seems completely bizarre you would invoke World War 2 at all, as it has 0 relevance to anything to do with this thread.

Also, plenty of other British colonies contributed to the war effort as well, I was just using India as an example. So, I see no relevance to your D-day comment, as the immigrants communities you speak of, probably has there fair share of ancestors fight in the same war you invoke.

Japer wrote: »

If there was no need for the survelance cameras they would not be there.

Them being there proves nothing, actually. Now, figures showing how effective these camera's are in stopping crime etc, would show there usefulness or lack there of, but just being there is proof of nothing.

droidus

Nijmegen wrote: »

To the issue of increased surveillance on Muslims in particular in the UK, I would say why not? They are, unless I am mistaken, the only group happily indiginous to the UK since their parents and grandparents moved there who have been known to commit organized acts of domestic terrorism...

Not many Sikhs are flying off to terrorist training camps. Not even dissidents in Northern Ireland have taken up a bombing campaign on the mainland, and I assure you they remain under a tight security lid since they've taken to blowing up cars outside of police stations...

:rolleyes: You are mistaken.

Bomb seizures spark far-right terror plot fear

A network of suspected far-right extremists with access to 300 weapons and 80 bombs has been uncovered by counter-terrorism detectives.

Thirty-two people have been questioned in a police operation that raises the prospect of a right-wing bombing campaign against mosques. Police are said to have recovered a British National party membership card and other right-wing literature during a raid on the home of one suspect charged under the Terrorism Act.

In England’s largest seizure of a suspected terrorist arsenal since the IRA mainland bombings of the early 1990s, rocket launchers, grenades, pipe bombs and dozens of firearms have been recovered in the past six weeks during raids on more than 20 properties. Several people have been charged and more arrests are imminent. Current police activity is linked to arrests in Europe, New Zealand and Australia.

Police are examining allegations that many of the guns were manufactured or reactivated, then sold over the internet to viewers of a right-wing website. Details of the previously secret operation were disclosed by Sir Norman Bettison, the chief constable of West Yorkshire, to security officials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6638139.ece

Japer

wes wrote: »

the immigrants communities you speak of, probably has there fair share of ancestors fight in the same war you invoke..

Most immigrants came to the UK since the WW2 era, and have come from countries with large populations eg India, Nigeria, etc etc, so I doubt if most of their ancestors served in WW2. Of course millions of people from around the world did, including 100,000 from this island. However my point was " one wonders what those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the 1940's would think of a Britain where now many areas are containing so many immigrants with no allegiance to the UK ? " Of course not everyone can be tarred with the same brush. Will we have similar problems in Ireland in 30 years time ?

wes wrote: »

Them being there proves nothing, actually. Now, figures showing how effective these camera's are in stopping crime etc, would show there usefulness or lack there of, but just being there is proof of nothing.

As someone else correctly said, " In the UK they have proven CCTV's use, ...... I would say it is a useful tool, one amongst many employed, in the counter terrorism box over there."
I am glad there are cameras. Are you not, if and when cctv evidence is used to show and help solve terrorist incidents or crime ?

wes

Japer wrote: »

Most immigrants came to the UK since the WW2 era, and have come from countries with large populations eg India, Nigeria, etc etc, so I doubt if most of their ancestors served in WW2. Of course millions of people from around the world did, including 100,000 from this island. However my point was " one wonders what those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the 1940's would think of a Britain where now many areas are containing so many immigrants with no allegiance to the UK ? " Of course not everyone can be tarred with the same brush. Will we have similar problems in Ireland in 30 years time ?

My own Great Grand Father was in the British Army during the 2nd World War, but did not fight in it as he was stationed locally. Plenty of other men from his village (in rural Kashmir) however did fight in the war itself at the time. I think you will find that anyone with a similar background, would very possibly have had ancestors who fought in that war.

As for what they would think, damned if I know, as presumably, you are talking about those who died, when you say ultimate sacrifice, and it kind of hard to ask dead men questions.

As for Ireland, well seeing as we have no colonies like the British (where most of there immigrants came from), nor are we currently involved in over sea's mis-adventures looking for things that don't exist, so I doubt we will have the same problems as the UK, as our situations are not the same.

Japer wrote: »

As someone else correctly said, " In the UK they have proven CCTV's use, ...... I would say it is a useful tool, one amongst many employed, in the counter terrorism box over there."
I am glad there are cameras. Are you not, if and when cctv evidence is used to show and help solve terrorist incidents or crime ?

If the CCTV is shown to be useful then yes. It really depends on what the figures are, which I don't have, so I can't make a reasonable judgement without them, and what someone else said isn't proof of anything either.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Most immigrants came to the UK since the WW2 era, and have come from countries with large populations eg India, Nigeria, etc etc, so I doubt if most of their ancestors served in WW2. Of course millions of people from around the world did, including 100,000 from this island. However my point was " one wonders what those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the 1940's would think of a Britain where now many areas are containing so many immigrants with no allegiance to the UK ? " Of course not everyone can be tarred with the same brush. Will we have similar problems in Ireland in 30 years time ?

It really would save a lot of beating round the bush if you just started a thread called 'Those bloody immigrants' and got it out of your system.

Japer

Nodin wrote: »

It really would save a lot of beating round the bush if you just started a thread called 'Those bloody immigrants' and got it out of your system.

Not really, because most immigrants are good people. Its the type who go around planting bombs on the London underground, ( or who try to bring down aeroplanes full of civilians, or who ram in to Glasgow airport ) who are not so good, and who deserve to be caught on surveilance cctv when they do. Well, in my eyes those type of people ( who plant bombs ) are not so good ; maybe they are good people in your eyes ?

Run_to_da_hills

More on this subject. It looks as if the EU is involved, maybe its all a part of Project Indect, the supposingly top secret programme that got leaked out last year.



Police keep tabs on activists from across the political spectrum, documents obtained by EU civil liberties NGO reveal.

The UK is taking part in a European surveillance programme which is designed to gather personal information about suspected "radicals" from across the political spectrum.

Confidential documents reveal how an initiative to gather data on "radicalisation and recruitment" in Islamic terrorist groups has been expanded to incorporate other organisations.

Political activists who have no association with terrorism could now find themselves monitored by authorities mandated to discover information about their friends, family, neighbours, political beliefs, use of the internet and even psychological traits.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/08/uk-monitors-susp

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Not really, because most immigrants are good people.

Excellent. Then hopefully we won't be hearing anymore rhetorical questions like 'will Ireland be like this in 30 years time' etc

Grumpypants

Anyone else sick of these pathetic headline threads, 1 million cameras installed all over the UK. Not one word, 150 happen to be put into a Muslim area in Birmingham and its some how a problem ?? If you know Birmingham then 150 isn't a large number its quite a big area.

The next thread will be Muslim's forced to pay tax in racist crack down.

Nodin

Grumpypants wrote: »

Anyone else sick of these pathetic headline threads, 1 million cameras installed all over the UK. Not one word, 150 happen to be put into a Muslim area in Birmingham and its some how a problem ?? If you know Birmingham then 150 isn't a large number its quite a big area.

The next thread will be Muslim's forced to pay tax in racist crack down.

Don't bother to read the OP article, whatever you do....

About 150 automatic numberplate recognition (ANPR) cameras have been installed in Washwood Heath and Sparkbrook in recent months. Birmingham's two predominantly Muslim suburbs will be covered by three times more ANPR cameras than are used to monitor the entire city centre. They include about 40 cameras classed as "covert", meaning they have been concealed from public view

(my bold)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/surveillance-cameras-birmingham-muslims

Run_to_da_hills

Grumpypants wrote: »

Anyone else sick of these pathetic headline threads, 1 million cameras installed all over the UK. Not one word, 150 happen to be put into a Muslim area in Birmingham and its some how a problem ?? If you know Birmingham then 150 isn't a large number its quite a big area.

The next thread will be Muslim's forced to pay tax in racist crack down.

Or Muslims forced into buying transit smartcards.

Japer

Grumpypants wrote: »

150 happen to be put into a Muslim area in Birmingham and its some how a problem ?? If you know Birmingham then 150 isn't a large number its quite a big area.

+1. Given that such cameras are more likely to be of use there than elsewhere ( given most of those who have planting bombs on the London underground, or who try to bring down aeroplanes full of civilians, or who ram in to Glasgow airport , or who have conspired to cause explosions have , in recent years, either come from Muslim areas or frequently visited muslim areas ) , then well done to those concerned in the fight against terrorism. There is little point in putting 150 cameras in a remote area in the Scottish highlands, for example.

droidus

Japer wrote: »

+1. Given that such cameras are more likely to be of use there than elsewhere ( given most of those who have planting bombs on the London underground, or who try to bring down aeroplanes full of civilians, or who ram in to Glasgow airport , or who have conspired to cause explosions have , in recent years, either come from Muslim areas or frequently visited muslim areas ) , then well done to those concerned in the fight against terrorism. There is little point in putting 150 cameras in a remote area in the Scottish highlands, for example.

And again!

Bomb seizures spark far-right terror plot fear

A network of suspected far-right extremists with access to 300 weapons and 80 bombs has been uncovered by counter-terrorism detectives.

Thirty-two people have been questioned in a police operation that raises the prospect of a right-wing bombing campaign against mosques. Police are said to have recovered a British National party membership card and other right-wing literature during a raid on the home of one suspect charged under the Terrorism Act.

In England’s largest seizure of a suspected terrorist arsenal since the IRA mainland bombings of the early 1990s, rocket launchers, grenades, pipe bombs and dozens of firearms have been recovered in the past six weeks during raids on more than 20 properties. Several people have been charged and more arrests are imminent. Current police activity is linked to arrests in Europe, New Zealand and Australia.

Police are examining allegations that many of the guns were manufactured or reactivated, then sold over the internet to viewers of a right-wing website. Details of the previously secret operation were disclosed by Sir Norman Bettison, the chief constable of West Yorkshire, to security officials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6638139.ece

wes

Japer wrote: »

+1. Given that such cameras are more likely to be of use there than elsewhere ( given most of those who have planting bombs on the London underground, or who try to bring down aeroplanes full of civilians, or who ram in to Glasgow airport , or who have conspired to cause explosions have , in recent years, either come from Muslim areas or frequently visited muslim areas ) , then well done to those concerned in the fight against terrorism. There is little point in putting 150 cameras in a remote area in the Scottish highlands, for example.

Alright, so if I am a terrorist, just avoid pre-dominantly Muslim area's. By focusing on one area, any terrorist with half a brain, will just up and move to another area with less camera coverage. The only way this increased surveilance works, is if terrorists are completely stupid.

irishconvert

Japer wrote: »

+1. Given that such cameras are more likely to be of use there than elsewhere ( given most of those who have planting bombs on the London underground, or who try to bring down aeroplanes full of civilians, or who ram in to Glasgow airport , or who have conspired to cause explosions have , in recent years, either come from Muslim areas or frequently visited muslim areas ) , then well done to those concerned in the fight against terrorism. There is little point in putting 150 cameras in a remote area in the Scottish highlands, for example.

It's people like you who are complicit in allowing EVERYBODYS personal freedoms to be eroded away by being fooled by a so-called terorism threat.

rugbyman

wes wrote: »

Alright, so if I am a terrorist, just avoid pre-dominantly Muslim area's. By focusing on one area, any terrorist with half a brain, will just up and move to another area with less camera coverage. The only way this increased surveilance works, is if terrorists are completely stupid.

Wes, i have read quite a bit of your stuff over the last week.
i wondered if any of those on here who constantly come up with yet another "yes ,but on the other side..." type of comment would feel at home in a medieval debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Are you even a teensy bit suggesting that since the terrorists know where the cameras are, and can avoid them ,that therefore there is no benefit in putting them up at all?

I notice there there are no "civil liberties" types on here objecting to cameras , just hair splitters.

It is unlikely that the authorities will ever display to us how good the cameras are or how many plots have been foiled by them.

For my part, the existence of cameras in the strangest of spots, means I just always assume I am on a screen somewhere.

Rugbyman

wes

rugbyman wrote: »

Wes, i have read quite a bit of your stuff over the last week.

The authorities have statistics for all sorts of things. In the UK, they even have stats for convictions coming from stop and search. So why not for CCTV? As I said earlier, if it can be shown using some stats that CCTV do stop terrorism (in this case) or any other crime, then I would assume that the authorities would be very quick to point it out.

**EDIT**
Btw, the stop and search stats are avaliable:
Terror stop and search police statistics

So, I take we can expect similar stat regarding CCTV and terrorism then, if indeed that is the reason for the camera's.
**END EDIT**

Now, if you want to call asking some simple questions, and pointing out some simple questions to counter some rethoric hair splitting, then go right ahead.

Also, seeing as we know from the artice that certain area's will have more CCTV. Now, seeing as people on boards.ie have this informaion and it is freely avaliable, there is nothing stopping a potential terrorists just going to another area, where there will be less eyes on them. Now, I am not suggesting that there is no benefit to CCTV, as I said earlier, I have no idea on how beneficial they are, as I have no information on it. Just pointing out that the logic of putting more CCTV in one area, doesn't mean you will catch more terrorists, as is being argued by some here.

Now, if you read my posts, I have not completely discounted CCTVs at all. Just wondered how effective they are in relation to terrorism, and was wondering if anyone has stats in this regard.