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israel question

  • 05-06-2010 07:56PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭


    Is there anyone here who supports the blockade of Gaza?


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Yep, me. I can't fault Israel for trying to stop certain items which could be used by their enemies against them reaching Gaza. The blockade certainly has unpalatable effects on people inside Gaza, but until they get their own house in order then Israel will most likely continue to assert it's right to defend itself.

    Countries such as Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, formerly Husseins Iraq support groups who wouldn't shed a tear at Israels complete destruction. I prefer a modern Israel to the other states mentioned in their current guises. There is no doubt they have rich histories and diverse cultures, but Israel fits in better with my beliefs than the other "regimes".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    branie wrote: »
    Is there anyone here who supports the blockade of Gaza?


    The Israeli Government seems to be in favour of it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,370 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    And most countries in the world considering their inaction


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,015 ✭✭✭Paddy Samurai


    Egypt does.
    Meanwhile Egypt has temporarily opened its border with the Gaza Strip to allow aid, a government official said.
    The move has prompted thousands of Gazans to rush to leave the normally closed territory, flocking to the Rafah crossing point in cars laden with luggage.Rafah is the only border post from Gaza not fully controlled by Israel and has been opened only sparingly by Cairo since Hamas seized control in Gaza three years ago


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    Course I support it, I have to. If I criticise anything Israel does sure all of a sudden I'm a holocaust denying Nazi.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    *goes back to watching Sky News*


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    johngalway wrote: »

    Countries such as Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, formerly Husseins Iraq support groups who wouldn't shed a tear at Israels complete destruction. I prefer a modern Israel to the other states mentioned in their current guises. There is no doubt they have rich histories and diverse cultures, but Israel fits in better with my beliefs than the other "regimes".

    As long as you realise that entails supporting colonialism, legalised torture and a semi-apartheid regime in the OT......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Nodin wrote: »
    As long as you realise that entails supporting colonialism, legalised torture and a semi-apartheid regime in the OT......

    I don't have a problem with any of that given the circumstances Israel is in. A lot of people, myself included, are speaking on this topic from relative safety. We, thankfully, do not have to experience rockets being fired into our country as we go about our daily business. If it reduces the incidences of "Joe Soap down the road isn't the same jocular fellow since his wife/kids/dad/uncle got blown to smithereens" then well and good.

    I realise Israel sends in tanks, jets, helicopters etc. I realise civilians on both sides die, for keeps. However this part of the world is quite simply dangerous. Who in their right minds vote in a shower like Hamas and expect sunshine and roses. There is a practical reality to this situation, and that is that Israel is the big dog in this neighbourhood. Palestinians & co. need to be more practical about this fact. This isn't Rock, Paper, Scissors, sling shots and katyushas quite simply don't beat F-16's & Apaches, especially when the will to use that technology is rock solid. Indoctrinating hatred into uneducated youths that it's better to die for Allah than have any even the slimmest glimmer of a future is unspeakable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭oncevotedff


    branie wrote: »
    Is there anyone here who supports the blockade of Gaza?

    Yes.
    Nodin wrote: »
    As long as you realise that entails supporting colonialism, legalised torture and a semi-apartheid regime in the OT......

    Fine by me. The guys who run the "OT" are far worse than the Israelis.
    Another Israel thread?

    Maybe someone should start a "We hate Israel" forum where all the Islamophiles can gather and emote about the poor Palestinians and how nasty the Jews are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    johngalway wrote: »
    I don't (.......)of a future is unspeakable.

    Theres no Israeli presence in Gaza, they just control access, resources and the like. The whole "semi apartheid..." thing refers to Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank etc.

    I take it you know about the settlements etc?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Maybe someone should start a "We hate Israel" forum where all the Islamophiles can gather and emote about the poor Palestinians and how nasty the Jews are.

    Glad to see your opinion of Palestinians doesn't change even if they adopt non-violence.

    I'd suggest keeping remarks about "Islamophiles" and implications of anti-semitism to yourself, however.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Nodin wrote: »
    Theres no Israeli presence in Gaza, they just control access, resources and the like. The whole "semi apartheid..." thing refers to Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank etc.

    I take it you know about the settlements etc?

    Yes @ Gaza.

    "Semi Apartheid", what do you do? People wrap explosives around their bodies and walk into shops/nightclubs/bus stops/restaurants and blow themselves up.

    Thought it may not seem so to some, I am all for living peacefully. But, you got to draw a line and say no further when confronted by suicide bombers/rocket & mortar attacks. If that discommodes the general population where these bombers come from, then I believe it's put upon that population to have a really good think about supporting the terrorists.

    It's just not working for them. The place is often compared to Northern Ireland. The IRA gave the British Army excellent training. The IDF is getting the same thing. The difference is that Israel simply isn't bothered about world opinion compared to the survival and safety of it's citizens.

    Until the general population of the Occupied Territories realise that talking Israelis to death instead of bombing them to death is a better option, this merrygoround will just keep turning.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    johngalway wrote: »
    Yes @ Gaza.

    "Semi Apartheid", what do you do? People wrap explosives around their bodies and walk into shops/nightclubs/bus stops/restaurants and blow themselves up..

    Well for one thing, its been that way since 1967, and the first suicide bomb occurred in Israel in the early 1980's, I think. I'm not sure what denying people equal access to justice, resources etc would do to change anyones mind. Certainly Apartheid didn't become more popular with black Africans when it was more strictly applied.
    johngalway wrote: »
    Thought it may not seem so to some, I am all for living peacefully. But, you got to draw a line and say no further when confronted by suicide bombers/rocket & mortar attacks. If that discommodes the general population where these bombers come from, then I believe it's put upon that population to have a really good think about supporting the terrorists.
    ..

    That seems to be justifying security. Do you not think that the ongoing building of civillian colonies within the West Bank (an area thats been peaceful for years) is an aggressive and perhaps a provocative act on Israels part.
    johngalway wrote: »
    It's just not working for them. The place is often compared to Northern Ireland. The IRA gave the British Army excellent training. The IDF is getting the same thing. The difference is that Israel simply isn't bothered about world opinion compared to the survival and safety of it's citizens.
    ..

    ...because of the US veto at the UNSC.
    johngalway wrote: »
    Until the general population of the Occupied Territories realise that talking Israelis to death instead of bombing them to death is a better option, this merrygoround will just keep turning.

    ....there hasn't been an attack launched from the West Bank for many years. Its not governed by Hamas. Fatah actively persecute Hamas members there


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    johngalway wrote: »
    Yep, me. I can't fault Israel for trying to stop certain items which could be used by their enemies against them reaching Gaza. The blockade certainly has unpalatable effects on people inside Gaza, but until they get their own house in order then Israel will most likely continue to assert it's right to defend itself.

    Countries such as Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, formerly Husseins Iraq support groups who wouldn't shed a tear at Israels complete destruction. I prefer a modern Israel to the other states mentioned in their current guises. There is no doubt they have rich histories and diverse cultures, but Israel fits in better with my beliefs than the other "regimes".

    I find your stance shocking and very troubling, also immoral, given that collective punishment is against laws of war and is in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

    Collective punishment is basically something that should always be considered unpalatable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    I'll be honest, I'm not here to go arguing with anyone. The question was asked regarding the blockade and I have answered it from my point of view, what I would find acceptable if put in the same situation.

    Rights, justice & resources are great. There are people in this fine world of ours who use those to kill others. Considering that from all points of view, I find Israel as an entity to be much more compatible with my views than their enemies.

    This isn't a popularity contest. Containing and harming terrorist organisations isn't a pretty thing. If I lived in Israel I would only be delighted that my Government went to such lengths to keep me and mine safe, that's the be all and end all of it. If it's a choice between my family staying alive, or some other people I don't know, I'll pick my family every time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,370 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    johngalway wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I'm not here to go arguing with anyone. The question was asked regarding the blockade and I have answered it from my point of view, what I would find acceptable if put in the same situation.

    Rights, justice & resources are great. There are people in this fine world of ours who use those to kill others. Considering that from all points of view, I find Israel as an entity to be much more compatible with my views than their enemies.

    This isn't a popularity contest. Containing and harming terrorist organisations isn't a pretty thing. If I lived in Israel I would only be delighted that my Government went to such lengths to keep me and mine safe, that's the be all and end all of it. If it's a choice between my family staying alive, or some other people I don't know, I'll pick my family every time.

    What would you do if you were put in the same situation as the Palestinans?

    Unless you have a vested interest in the Israeli state, how can you have such empathy for Israel and none for the Palestinans?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    johngalway wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I'm not here to go arguing with anyone. The question was asked regarding the blockade and I have answered it from my point of view, what I would find acceptable if put in the same situation.

    Rights, justice & resources are great. There are people in this fine world of ours who use those to kill others. Considering that from all points of view, I find Israel as an entity to be much more compatible with my views than their enemies.

    This isn't a popularity contest. Containing and harming terrorist organisations isn't a pretty thing. If I lived in Israel I would only be delighted that my Government went to such lengths to keep me and mine safe, that's the be all and end all of it. If it's a choice between my family staying alive, or some other people I don't know, I'll pick my family every time.

    Thats all well and good, however it was this - the last part in particular, that I found worrying.
    Countries such as Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, formerly Husseins Iraq support groups who wouldn't shed a tear at Israels complete destruction. I prefer a modern Israel to the other states mentioned in their current guises. There is no doubt they have rich histories and diverse cultures, but Israel fits in better with my beliefs than the other "regimes".

    Theres rather a lot more going on there than self defence against Hamas, and I'd be suprised if most peoples beliefs included colonialism and the regime I outlined earlier.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    I do not like all or nothing situations like this. Israel has the right to inspect anything going into Gaza and I would say a lot of people would agree with this. However, what I do not understand is why certain items are not allowed in. I have no problem with waepons being restricted and it is logical for Israel to block these but why do they have to block food items? Why is this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Mrmoe wrote: »
    I do not like all or nothing situations like this. Israel has the right to inspect anything going into Gaza and I would say a lot of people would agree with this. However, what I do not understand is why certain items are not allowed in. I have no problem with waepons being restricted and it is logical for Israel to block these but why do they have to block food items? Why is this?

    To make the population suffer, essentially. They hope that it will turn them against Hamas, despite the fact that the harshness of the years of occupation was one of the factors that created Hamas' support in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    What would you do if you were put in the same situation as the Palestinans?

    Unless you have a vested interest in the Israeli state, how can you have such empathy for Israel and none for the Palestinans?

    Palestinians can fight or they can talk. I believe talking is the better option in the long run. There is no perfect solution to this, where both sides do XY&Z and the whole history of the thing goes away like magic. It's a nasty, vicious war and it will take a very long time to work out a livable settlement for both sides.

    To answer your question on empathy directly. I find Israel to be more compatible with my idea of a good place to live when compared to the countries that support it's enemies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Nodin wrote: »
    Thats all well and good, however it was this - the last part in particular, that I found worrying.

    Theres rather a lot more going on there than self defence against Hamas, and I'd be suprised if most peoples beliefs included colonialism and the regime I outlined earlier.

    Having a little trouble with your post, you'll have to be a bit more specific if you'd like me to answer :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    It is, if you're a member of a certain group. And your conscience isn't bothered by what might be called a 'plantation' taking place within driving distance of your home.

    I might add that as sanctions have been blocked for decades by the US, talk has rather been barred as a method of progress. Certainly the only thing that the one sided measures in place have led to is an increasingly desperate and radicalised Palestinian population. In my life time I've seen the gradual ebbing of secular forces, and the rise of the extremist religous movements.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    johngalway wrote: »
    Having a little trouble with your post, you'll have to be a bit more specific if you'd like me to answer :)

    The whole thing about "Israel fits in better with my beliefs..". I find it hard to see how somebody can be ok about the colonial expansion into the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, and the treatment of the population there.

    This is from an Israeli organisation, which explains things in more detail.
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    A person doesn't need to be a member of any group to have an opinion on a conflict involving that and other groups.

    Israel is doing what it needs to to keep it's citizens safe. I agree with that. I believe when Sharon was in power he started having settlements dismantled, I agreed with that. The Palestinians need to be listening less to the nut jobs, it's more likely to yield benefits.

    This is the second time it's been bandied about that seeing as I support Israels stance on the blockade of Gaza I must have connections with Israel. I find that a slight on the person saying it, not on myself, as the accusation is ridiculous.

    Talk can still go on, it has done in the past, with the same US sitting at the same Security Council.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Nodin wrote: »
    The whole thing about "Israel fits in better with my beliefs..". I find it hard to see how somebody can be ok about the colonial expansion into the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, and the treatment of the population there.

    This is from an Israeli organisation, which explains things in more detail.
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/

    But, you're putting words in my mouth there, if we're talking about oranges then talk about oranges, don't talk apples and call them oranges :D I agreed with the blockade of Gaza, I didn't mention the settlements - until my post above this one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭halkar


    johngalway wrote: »
    Palestinians can fight or they can talk..

    Unfortunately Israel is making both options difficult for Palestinians.

    Fight? With what? They do not even allow pencils to Gaza.
    Talk? To whom? What will happen if both Gaza and West Bank vote for Hamas in the next elections? West Bank is land locked, they have no connection to outside world. Not to mention thousands of Israeli checkpoints and numerous scattered settlers.
    What will happens to Al Aqsa after Israel eventually annex Jerusalem? After all illegally they call Jerusalem as their capital.

    I posted this map to another thread. Take a look and think how it can ever be possible to have two state in that part of the world.

    Unfortunately to me the only solution for both Israelis and Palestinians is to put their differences aside and live peacefully as one country.

    Israel's only enemy is her own fear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    Nodin wrote: »
    To make the population suffer, essentially. They hope that it will turn them against Hamas, despite the fact that the harshness of the years of occupation was one of the factors that created Hamas' support in the first place.

    Thats what I do not understand. This blockade tends only to radicalise a population turning them away from the intended direction. Is there evidence anywhere in the world that such a blockade is even successful? If Israel wants to increase its security they should stop the blockade of items except for weapons. It is fairly simple and clear in my mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Yes.



    Fine by me. The guys who run the "OT" are far worse than the Israelis.



    Maybe someone should start a "We hate Israel" forum where all the Islamophiles can gather and emote about the poor Palestinians and how nasty the Jews are.

    Banned for general slur on everyone in the forum who fails to agree with you. People, don't play the anti-Semite card on thread. If someone is being anti-Semitic, report it.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I think you guys just don't seem to understand the gravity of Israels situation that Israel finds itself in. Israel is fighting a lone war against numerous neighbours who want to see it wiped off the map. The Palestinian people have made clear their support of a pan-Arabic movement against Israel.

    In 1967 Israel toke control of this tiny piece of land fourty one km long and six km wide by force. After its victory in the six day war. They tried to subdue the population but failed. They realised their failure and pulled out in 2006. But in 2007 Hamas toke over the area and used it as a post to attack Israel.

    Israel had to responde and in 2008 during the Gaza War Israel invaded, using heavy haded methods to crush Hamas. Unfortunately Hamas being the cowards that they are, had hidden the majority of their weapons and bases among the living quarters of palestinian people. And Israel had to bomb these areas to clear Hamas out.

    I am no fan of Israels latest actions, I am not anti-Arabic, and I agree that the IDFs methods are a bit full on sometimes but everything Israel has done it has done to survive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    johngalway wrote: »
    Who in their right minds vote in a shower like Hamas and expect sunshine and roses. There is a practical reality to this situation, and that is that Israel is the big dog in this neighbourhood

    Correct me if I'm wrong but Hamas was voted in in a democratic election devoid of any tinkering or any problems whatsoever.

    In being voted in democratically I would wager the guess that Hamas was voted in precisely because of their willingness to stand up to Israel's craziness but Hamas are completely willing to enter negotiations, despite Israel's refusal's and continued adoption of Kissinger-esque stalemate.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692114.stm
    http://www.euronews.net/2006/03/27/hamas-presents-cabinet-and-says-it-is-willing-to-talk/
    http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/19/hamas.iview/index.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7354027.stm

    Iwasfrozen, Israel is certainly not alone in this, the USA are completely allied wth Israel and have been for over 30 years.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I think you guys just don't seem to understand the gravity of Israels situation that Israel finds itself in. Israel is fighting a lone war against numerous neighbours who want to see it wiped off the map.
    This siege mentality is not helping Israel at all. Firstly, Israel does have some allies in the region, including Egypt and Turkey. Israel has shot itself in the foot by damaging its relationship with bith Egypt and Turkey over its handling of recent events.

    I agree that Israel has the right to defend itself, even if I don't agree that it ever should have been created. That is not the same as thinking Israel has the right to do whatever it thinks it needs to do to defend itself, regardless of the consequences on other people.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The Palestinian people have made clear their support of a pan-Arabic movement against Israel.
    Can you honestly, honestly blame them? Israel is pushing them into their arms, and pretty much guaranteeing the radicalisation of future generations of Arabs, both inside Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world.

    I primarly oppose the blocade because it has created and perpetuates a humanitarian crisis but I also don't think it is in Israel's best interest either.


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