Your protest at the next election

peasant

So you've decided to resist the urge to storm the Dail pitchfork & torches style and rather get your own back at the next election.

Right then ...you're not going to vote for anyone remotely attached to the current governement, that bit is easy.

Now it gets difficult ...who exactly are you going to vote for? The lads from the opposition haven't exactly filled you with confidence either. One of them wants to keep up our ridiculous public spending, the other ...well who knows if he stands for anything but hot air really.

That leaves not voting at all ...but hang on ...that way you just quietly support hardcore governement voters, so not voting is out of the question.

What to do then?
Vote for the local whacko? Some obscure fringe party? You sure don't want to see them running the country, do you?
Spoil your vote? Add an extra box saying "none of the above"?

How exactly can you effect a radical change with your one miserly vote?

Suggestions on the back of an envelope please ....

Agent Smith

if your adament you want a complete change of goverment, It boils down to the follwing choices

1. FG
2. Labour
3. SF

Labour have gone into Power with FF before, SF wont get enough TD's Elected to form a goverment on their own, FG wont go in with SF or FF.

Laminations

peasant wrote: »

Now it gets difficult ...who exactly are you going to vote for? The lads from the opposition haven't exactly filled you with confidence either. One of them wants to keep up our ridiculous public spending, the other ...well who knows if he stands for anything but hot air really.

I think you are being a little unfair to both opposition parties but FG in particular. In opposition you will always be full of 'hot air' because you can't implement policy from that position, so what you are saying is they can talk the talk but can they walk the walk? I agree they need to be tested and so far I've liked what they have to say so they'll get my vote. And is calling them full of hot air the best criticism you have of there many policy documents?

simonj

FG/FF are simply two cheeks of the one arse, its an overly dynastic system which is replicating in SF and Lab.

Limiting options to the old parties is simply perpetuating a two party system that has failed.

Labour have, sadly, become increasingly FG lite, and the speech by the SDLP leader about seeing a Spring back in their rightful place was insulting.

There are newer options coming on stream, as well as several independents.

The Greens in the Dail may be tainted by the current government, but that has a lot to do with the current party executive.

Biggins

Will hopefully be standing myself under my own org.

mikemac

peasant wrote: »

Spoil your vote? Add an extra box saying "none of the above"?

Definitely not this.
Make a choice and wait for the result.
If you spoil your vote you're not changing anything at all.
Realy, you lose any right to complain about the election result if you do this.

Even if you don't like any party candidate at all there is bound to be an independent to vote for. They are a local and will be available so ask them questions on what matters to you.

simonj

Biggins wrote: »

Will hopefully be standing myself under my own org.

Ditto - good luck with it

Bevvie

To be honest, I'll probably vote FG/Labour as they can't possibly do a worse job than the shower at the moment.

PeterIanStaker

I'll vote Tony O'Reilly, sure he actually runs the place:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Eliot Rosewater

I'll decide by elimination. I won't vote SF, because I don't agree with their polices, or any party to the Left of them, for that matter. I don't trust levy-is-a-spending-cut Labour to be in a position where they will actually have control of the finances of this country. Assuming I'm not going to vote for the current government parties, that leaves me with Fine Gael.

simonj

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'll decide by elimination. I won't vote SF, because I don't agree with their polices, or any party to the Left of them, for that matter. I don't trust levy-is-a-spending-cut Labour to be in a position where they will actually have control of the finances of this country. Assuming I'm not going to vote for the current government parties, that leaves me with Fine Gael.

Its sad that we are told they are the only alternative

ei.sdraob

simonj wrote: »

Its sad that we are told they are the only alternative

is Amhran Nua running out of interest

Eliot Rosewater

simonj wrote: »

Its sad that we are told they are the only alternative

I haven't been told by anyone that they're the only alternative; I've examined the political landscape myself and come to that conclusion.

PomBear

Agent Smith wrote: »

if your adament you want a complete change of goverment, It boils down to the follwing choices

1. FG
2. Labour
3. SF

Labour have gone into Power with FF before, SF wont get enough TD's Elected to form a goverment on their own, FG wont go in with SF or FF.

I think you'll find it's the other way around

Permabear

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Kivaro

I tend to agree with the fella from Donegal and it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth to say that FF is probably the best option. I despise what they have done to the country, but look at the other parties. It seems FG are saying what they believe the electorate wants to hear, and Enda Kenny ........ well, he's another thread topic altogether.

Labour is not in touch with reality and would be a very dangerous coalition with FG. And even though I was a SF supporter in my younger days, they have no serious economic solutions to the country's fiscal problems.

FF are making the right decisions now. I believe that the Wall Street Journal said during the week that FF are doing the right things (i.e. cutting the dependency on the welfare state, not cowering to the powerful unions that are running the country etc.) because they have nothing to lose at this stage.

Spit, spit ................. that bitter taste is my mouth is the distasteful feeling of wanting to keep FF in power, in order to facilitate the recovery. But I also believe that a number of them should be in jail.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I can't believe I'm reading this :eek:

The only thing FF has shown themselves willing to do is line their and their friends/allies pockets.

The rest is stark reality catching up with them ...not policy, never mind "willingness".

kivaro wrote:

FF are making the right decisions now

FF making decisions? That would be news to me.
They are doing (half-heartedly) what needs to be done ...in small measures, without any political will and about two years too late.

They are doing it because "the markets" / EU / IMF and the sheer fact that Ireland is broke leaves them no other choice.

Any other party in governement would have to do the same, regardless of what they promise pre-election.

Which reflects very poorly on the current "performance" of the opposition. Nobody seems to be willing to acknowledge the situation, ready to roll up the country's sleeves and get us out of this mess as quickly as possible ...because they all know they are going to meet large resistance from all sorts of vested interests.

Which brings me back to my initial question: what can you do to effect REAL change? Because in my mind voting in FG isn't change ...it's just the same sh*t with different faces.

Cookie_Monster

I'll be writing "Fuck the lotta you" on my ballot card

bmaxi

I, for one, have not yet abandoned the pitchforks and pikes option and any mention of the words ivor or callelly serve to rekindle the flame.
This portrayal of FF as the least worst option is a joke. Stalin, IMO, is a better option than FF, even though they have a lot in common.
I'm not a party political follower, I am the eternal floating voter, though I'm unlikely to float my vote in the direction of SF, so that realistically leaves FG and Labour. I think it's highly likely that these will form the next government and hopefully, though I'm not betting on it, politicians will have been chastened enough to bring about real checks and balances to the excesses of the Dáil. If not I'm afraid it just might come down to the pitchforks and pikes.

GarlicBread

I will be voting labour + rest of left.

FF and FG have had almost a century to make this country a nice place to live and look at the state of the place. There will be zero change if either of these two parties retain power.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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Me, I can't vote (I'm the non-citizen taxpayer only kinda eejit) ...hand me that pitchfork there

Denerick

I'd be tempted to vote SF at the next election. Mainly because they will win a seat in my constituency anyway (Hence I wouldn't need to worry about actually increasing their representation in the Dáil) but also because out of all the parties, they are the only ones capable of maintaining the self righteous air of the opposition. Their Marxist-Leninism singled them out as politically irrelevant, but at least they have a nice moral high ground.

Compare with FG (Spineless opportunistic twats) who wanted to scrap stamp duty for first time buyers at the last election, but love to peddle the lie that they were ahead of the curve and would have miraculously saved Ireland if only they were in power. Labour (Directionless, vain, pompous, irrelevant) who still long after infantile leftism (How they expect this to ever work in an irrelevant and marginalised European economy with practically no industry amazes me)

I won't vote FF because the country requires a change, even if the alternative may well be worse and more incompetant (Not to mention populist, spineless, and just as corrupt as FF) In normal circumstances I would vote Labour because I'm left of center, but the party has lurched quite far to the left recently, Eamon Gilmore is an absolute prat who harbours delusions of majority government, and also I simply cannot abide their incessant whinging about our economic condition. None of these parties deserve the moral high ground they try to carve out for themselves. Maybe history will judge that the kind of morons who took out loans to spend 20k on a ****ing bathtub were the cause of our crisis, not some government who forced (!) us to take out ridiculous loans for **** we didn't need.

/Rant.

I'm rather angry.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'd consider myself as mainly "fiscal conservative", and there's no damn way in this wide earthy world that FF represent that!

Remember that the only reason that FF have to pull back from the wastage is because they bought votes by dishing out that wastage.

So there's no way I'll give them credit for undoing the damage that they did; it's far too little, far too late.

donegalfella wrote: »

The very last thing this country needs is five years with left-wing economic illiterates (Labour Party, SF, SWP, etc) anywhere near the reins of power.

That's not the "very last thing" this country needs; it might be somewhere near that, but the "very last thing" that this country needs is to have disillusioned, underpaid people scraping by trying to survive while those at the top throw our money hand over fist at a bunch of gamblers and speculators.

Of course, given that you're in favour of speculators making fortunes, etc, regardless of the consequences, that might explain why you'd consider them.

Do we need less social welfare ? Yes, in general. Luxuries should be luxuries and should be earned, or else people should have to do community work for their welfare. Criminals and prisoners should too.

Do we need a bit of cop-on whereby someone shouts STOP when bankrupt banks are paying €500,000 plus expenses to their management, using our money on the double (bailout plus increased interest rates) ? Yes

Do we need those who condone and overlook corruption and expense-milking and dodgy deals to be anywhere near power ? Absolutely

As a result, FF wouldn't even show up as an option on my radar.

Denerick

Remember that the only reason that FF have to pull back from the wastage is because they bought votes by dishing out that wastage.

FF dramatically increased public spending in education and healthcare. If I remember correctly FG and Labour promised the same. I believe it was considered a 'national consensus'. But by all means, delegate personal responsibility away to a bogeyman in Kildare St. and maybe all your troubles will sail away to fantasy land. Tell Gandalf I said hi.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

But by all means, delegate personal responsibility away to a bogeyman in Kildare St. and maybe all your troubles will sail away to fantasy land. Tell Gandalf I said hi.

Please explain.

Personal responsibility = borrowing within my means
Personal responsibility = not voting for FF, so there was certainly no "national consensus"

Should we have spent on stuff : Yes
Should we have gotten value for money : Yes

The second of those being the key point; FF's solution to everything was to throw more cash at it (a tactic learned from their Galway Tent buddies, no doubt, and they're now returning the favour).

As for my "troubles", they're being added to daily by the said bogeymen (in both Kildare St and bank HQs) that others voted for and supported, and that have ruined this country.

And I haven't a notion what the Gandalf reference is about.....does he point out the sickening unfairness of FF's actions as well, or what ?

Spacedog

You need to look at all of the individual candidates running in your local area. perhaps one candidate is a member of a party you hate, but you personally like.

I suggest you focus your attention on independent candidates and examine them closely, as independent candidates tend not to be career politicians, and more like to be running because they want to change something, and know that the party politics to todays Irelend to to limited to do so.

Finally if none of the candidates are at least slightly appealing or trust worthy, then it is your duty as citizen, to have the balls stand up and run yourself, if you beliefs are sincere and you think you can do better then those in charge. Convince people to vote for you and take the risk of having your ideas challenged and debated.

Liam Byrne

Spacedog wrote: »

You need to look at all of the individual candidates running in your local area. perhaps one candidate is a member of a party you hate, but you personally like.

Whether or not you like them is irrelevant, IMHO.

Ahern was once - apparently - "likeable" (at least his projected persona was, to the point where the ridiculous "Bertie's Team" campaign was run) and look where that got us.

Manach

I'd say as a pragmatic conservative, I'd vote on the competence level the local TDs/other candidates and what is their track record. My heusristic was to have politely asked their opinion on a matter and to base my voting on how they responsed.

gooch2k9

I'm 19 so only just qualified to vote in reality. During the local elections all I seen was leaflets, posters and names. Now i read the leaflets, and most of them were waffling about stuff but I didn't really get any understanding of what they were trying to achieve. I'd vote for someone who'd take the time to explain what they stand for and exactly how it would benefit the people.

Except Fine Gael, just don't like them.

simonj

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is Amhran Nua running out of interest

No, but its a long road - and it will take time

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's a MASSIVE presumption on your part, considering that I have made absolutely no reference to David Begg, and actually had to do a Google search to figure out who the hell you were waffling on about.

donegalfella wrote: »

Your criticisms are highly selective.

At least I'm not making ridiculous presumptions! :rolleyes:

Please stick to the topic at hand without introducing hair-brained presumptions.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Please explain.

Personal responsibility = borrowing within my means
Personal responsibility = not voting for FF, so there was certainly no "national consensus"

Should we have spent on stuff : Yes
Should we have gotten value for money : Yes

Well maybe a national responsibility is a more accurate answer. As individuals, we made bad choices during the boom, expecting low interest rates and high wages to continue indefinately and to continue growing - thus making a ridiculous lifestyle affordable. Whether you are willing to face this or not, the problem with our economy was people buying stuff they didn't need with money they didn't have. As an individual, you must/should take the rational course and not spend money you don't own. As a rational individual you should save and prepare for the worst. We simply weren't doing this, and when the international crisis hit we were one of the most vulnerable countries in the world. Blame FF if you want, but everyone was enjoying the party. But the problem with sharing blame is that unfortunately those few souls who lived within their means but who are now suffering in the downturn are nearly as badly hit as the man who bought 3 apartments in Bulgaria on a 50k a year salary.

In short, we have angered the economy. Now the economy seeks its vengence. All hail the economy. (A South park reference - please ignore)

The second of those being the key point; FF's solution to everything was to throw more cash at it (a tactic learned from their Galway Tent buddies, no doubt, and they're now returning the favour).

As for my "troubles", they're being added to daily by the said bogeymen (in both Kildare St and bank HQs) that others voted for and supported, and that have ruined this country.

Western European governments ho adopted the social democratic consensus have generally adopted an approach to 'throwing money' at problems over the last 5 decades. Quit coming out with lines like 'have ruined this country'. You might as well spit on the ground, stamp your cigarette out, and moan the way women are dressing these days. It doesn't begin to identify in any way how they supposedly ruined this country.

And I haven't a notion what the Gandalf reference is about.....does he point out the sickening unfairness of FF's actions as well, or what ?

Its a reference to how people like to create bogeymen and thus divert the true structural and institutional problems that 'ruined the country' in the first place.

ninty9er

peasant wrote: »

I can't believe I'm reading this :eek:

The only thing FF has shown themselves willing to do is line their and their friends/allies pockets.

The rest is stark reality catching up with them ...not policy, never mind "willingness".


FF making decisions? That would be news to me.
They are doing (half-heartedly) what needs to be done ...in small measures, without any political will and about two years too late.

Please point me to said friends and allies, and show me some evidence that actions taken were solely for enrichment on the basis that these people were friends and allies of FF. In other words, get out the crystal ball and prove with some waka waka jing jang that the same actions wouldn't have been taken under different parties. I think you'll find a dead end.

People can choose to believe what they like, but posting it on the internet doesn't make it true.

If you're going to post 10 or 15 links to Ray Burke, Dermot Ahern, Bertie Ahern or Haughey, don't bother, there are over 100 members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party, get real.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do we need less social welfare ? Yes, in general. Luxuries should be luxuries and should be earned, or else people should have to do community work for their welfare. Criminals and prisoners should too.

And if FF is the only party offering what you want you will vote ABFF just to spite yourself?

Makes sense:rolleyes:

You've been threatening to emigrate for a long time now, yet you complain about the inaction of the government that's actually following through to correct it's fiscally flaithiulach nature.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do we need a bit of cop-on whereby someone shouts STOP when bankrupt banks are paying €500,000 plus expenses to their management, using our money on the double (bailout plus increased interest rates) ? Yes

Get over it, it's not going to change. They're not bankrupt, they're just up to their executive floors in debt, a lot of that is owed to the government. If you don't like it go out and get the qualifications to run a bank yourself and put yourself forward to the shareholders.

Pride Fighter

I'll be voting for Labour. Labour is the best bet to get the country working again. The best way to deal with our national debt is to get everyone into employment.

To those saying Labour will be a disaster in government with FG I'd like to point to the 1970's. The national coalition of 73-77 was a pretty good government. Labour in that government did good things socially regarding social housing while at the same time the government generally dealt with the oil crisis and the economic downturn. It was Fianna Fail that created the 80's disaster with their huge spending increases after 77.

If Labour and FG go into government next time out, I'd expect a 70's style national coalition that will do its job well. I dont expect to see fireworks or silver bullets but if our unemployment is down to single figures and borrowings per year brought under control it will be a success.

Denerick

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It was Fianna Fail that created the 80's disaster with their huge spending increases after 77.

Again with this stuff. Why is it that the rest of the world also experienced a downturn in the 80s? Or it is just easier to blame everything on FF and hope nobody sees what you're up to?

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

Please point me to said friends and allies, and show me some evidence

Points to Galway tent and all the evidence the so called banking "enquiry" will surely bury

And now, with that dealt with, stick to the topic please

Pride Fighter

Denerick wrote: »

Again with this stuff. Why is it that the rest of the world also experienced a downturn in the 80s? Or it is just easier to blame everything on FF and hope nobody sees what you're up to?

That is not true. Britain had economic growth after the mid 80's and various other nations saw economic growth throughout the 80's. Fianna Fail expanded spending post 1977 and ruined the economy for the entirety of the 80's.

Fianna Fail have a great knack for running the economy into the ground. They should be thanked for this at the ballot box next time out.

Denerick

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That is not true. Britain had economic growth after the mid 80's and various other nations saw economic growth throughout the 80's. Fianna Fail expanded spending post 1977 and ruined the economy for the entirety of the 80's.

Fianna Fail have a great knack for running the economy into the ground. They should be thanked for this at the ballot box next time out.

Ireland did not have Britains industrial base, and much of the growth under Thatcher was in the city of London, financial services etc. - a not entirely reliable economic destiny, as the events of the past couple of years has shown. We are a marginal, open economy, people need to realise that when global economic conditions are bad, Ireland will suffer badly. The more open we are, the worse affected we'll be. There is little FF or any government for that matter can do about that - unless, of course, they invited the Germans to take control and allow us to take shelter underneath their fiscal umbrella. A not entirely unpleasing prospect!

peasant

Denerick wrote: »

unless, of course, they

actually supported domestic businesses and didn't just rely on benevolent foreign investors who might leave at the drop of a hat.

skearon

Bevvie wrote: »

To be honest, I'll probably vote FG/Labour as they can't possibly do a worse job than the shower at the moment.

Considering FG and Labour policies are at odds in important areas such as banking, welfare, public service etc etc, they are far more likely to damage to this country if in power.

No matter who you vote for, I strongly recommend informing yourself on the policies of each party and then vote based on that, and not a populist sound bite.

Pride Fighter

Denerick wrote: »

Ireland did not have Britains industrial base, and much of the growth under Thatcher was in the city of London, financial services etc. - a not entirely reliable economic destiny, as the events of the past couple of years has shown. We are a marginal, open economy, people need to realise that when global economic conditions are bad, Ireland will suffer badly. The more open we are, the worse affected we'll be. There is little FF or any government for that matter can do about that - unless, of course, they invited the Germans to take control and allow us to take shelter underneath their fiscal umbrella. A not entirely unpleasing prospect!

Fianna Fail offered the sun, moon and stars in their 77 election manifesto. They tried to deliver it and bankrupted the country. Simple.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

And if FF is the only party offering what you want you will vote ABFF just to spite yourself?

Picking myself up off the floor laughing at that one! Since FF have never offered what I would term acceptable and sustainable government, how the hell would their latest f**kups change that ?

"What I want" has never included wastage, corruption, abdication of responsibility, reverse Robin Hood-ing, privatisation without safeguards, assholes claiming expenses they're not entitled to, bailing out banks, and that damn well isn't going to change now!

ninty9er wrote: »

You've been threatening to emigrate for a long time now, yet you complain about the inaction of the government that's actually following through to correct it's fiscally flaithiulach nature.

"nature" is a good word, because it's in FF's "nature" to be "fiscally flaithiulach".

And I haven't been "threatening to"; I have no desire to emigrate, and would hope and pray that Ireland quickly becomes a place where it's no longer "all or nothing" (make millions screwing people or have absolutely nothing; I want to make a living, get by - nothing more, nothing less) but (much as it sickens me to even contemplate it) FF do not have that vision of an Ireland, preferring to make millionaires and poor, with feck-all in between.

ninty9er wrote: »

Get over it, it's not going to change. They're not bankrupt, they're just up to their executive floors in debt, a lot of that is owed to the government. If you don't like it go out and get the qualifications to run a bank yourself and put yourself forward to the shareholders.

"owed to the government" ??? :eek: :mad::mad: My arse! It's owed to the people of Ireland, and if this government doesn't see fit to kick to touch - evicting from it's party ranks - someone who robbed €80,000 of OUR cash, and some future, ethical Government does somehow manage to get some semblance of a "profit" from FF's gambling, that it is paid in cash to every man, woman and child who is currently up ****'s creek due to FF's mismanagement.

trapsagenius

Pride Fighter wrote: »

To those saying Labour will be a disaster in government with FG I'd like to point to the 1970's. The national coalition of 73-77 was a pretty good government. Labour in that government did good things socially regarding social housing while at the same time the government generally dealt with the oil crisis and the economic downturn. It was Fianna Fail that created the 80's disaster with their huge spending increases after 77.

If Labour and FG go into government next time out, I'd expect a 70's style national coalition that will do its job well. I dont expect to see fireworks or silver bullets but if our unemployment is down to single figures and borrowings per year brought under control it will be a success.

First of all, it's convenient you ignore the mid 80s coalition, which was a complete fiasco.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

To those saying Labour will be a disaster in government with FG I'd like to point to the 1970's. The national coalition of 73-77 was a pretty good government. Labour in that government did good things socially regarding social housing while at the same time the government generally dealt with the oil crisis and the economic downturn. It was Fianna Fail that created the 80's disaster with their huge spending increases after 77.

Dealt with the economic downturn?What are you basing that on?What was the rate of inflation again?

That government was also probably the least democratic in the history of the state-you had that absolute prick Conor Cruise o'Brien banning SF from RTE-whatever about them being "terrorists". this was completely undemocratic.As was the Tullymander.It's quite a shame as well, because Liam Cosgrave's father was W.T Cosgrave, a true Irish statesman, who did so much to insure democracy was firmly bedded down in Ireland in the first place ( and that's coming from a man whose family were decidedly anti-treaty!).

Also about that coaliton "doing good things socially"-didin't Cosgrave vote against his own government on the bill about liberalising sale of contraceptives?

All this is coming from a person who will be voting for Labour in the next election.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That is not true. Britain had economic growth after the mid 80's and various other nations saw economic growth throughout the 80's. Fianna Fail expanded spending post 1977 and ruined the economy for the entirety of the 80's.

Fianna Fail have a great knack for running the economy into the ground. They should be thanked for this at the ballot box next time out.

FF expanded spending and so on in keeping with election promises which they were obliged to make to win the election because of the Tullymander.While I still don't think the promises and subsequent actions were justified, simply blaming FF for everything does not hold up.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That is not true. Britain had economic growth after the mid 80's and various other nations saw economic growth throughout the 80's. Fianna Fail expanded spending post 1977 and ruined the economy for the entirety of the 80's.

FG and Labour were in power from late 1982 to early 1987.During this time they did absolutely nothing effective to get to grips with the economic problems of the time.And if you are going to blame FF (don't get me wrong, somewhat justifiably) for creating the economic mess, surely you will also give them credit for dragging us out of it in the late 80s?

Pride Fighter

trapsagenius wrote: »

First of all, it's convenient you ignore the mid 80s coalition, which was a complete fiasco.




Dealt with the economic downturn?What are you basing that on?What was the rate of inflation again?

That government was also probably the least democratic in the history of the state-you had that absolute prick Conor Cruise o'Brien banning SF from RTE-whatever about them being "terrorists". this was completely undemocratic.As was the Tullymander.It's quite a shame as well, because Liam Cosgrave's father was W.T Cosgrave, a true Irish statesman, who did so much to insure democracy was firmly bedded down in Ireland in the first place ( and that's coming from a man whose family were decidedly anti-treaty!).

Also about that coaliton "doing good things socially"-didin't Cosgrave vote against his own government on the bill about liberalising sale of contraceptives?

All this is coming from a person who will be voting for Labour in the next election.





FF expanded spending and so on in keeping with election promises which they were obliged to make to win the election because of the Tullymander.While I still don't think the promises and subsequent actions were justified, simply blaming FF for everything does not hold up.



FG and Labour were in power from late 1982 to early 1987.During this time they did absolutely nothing effective to get to grips with the economic problems of the time.And if you are going to blame FF (don't get me wrong, somewhat justifiably) for creating the economic mess, surely you will also give them credit for dragging us out of it in the late 80s?

Would agree with a lot of what you say. FG and Labour in the 80's did quite poorly on the economy. Garrett Fitzgerald and FG could not get a handle on the economy and Labour were a tiny party, all over the place, reeling form their leader joining FG and at the weakest they were in their history.

I think the coalition in the 70's did good things in certain areas, obviously you pointed out some bad ones I'd agree with. A strong Labour party will do a good job if they get into power. Obviously I wont count my chickens until an election is held.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

The more open we are, the worse affected we'll be. There is little FF or any government for that matter can do about that - unless, of course, they invited the Germans to take control and allow us to take shelter underneath their fiscal umbrella. A not entirely unpleasing prospect!

Tell me this.......are Anglo's cock-ups related to a worldwide downturn or due to crap domestic decisions ?

Is the fact that FF based day-to-day costs on finite transient windfall taxes related to a worldwide downturn ?

FF appointed an incompetent, unqualified yes-man of a crony as a so-called "financial regulator", and told people to "shop around" when they raised issues about Ireland being uncompetitive (and ironically complained when they went over the border to do so; meanwhile FF spent a fortune on a foreign development agency doing their new website, ignoring Irish talent ..... they "justified" this - believe it or not, I actually heard one of them say this - "because we could do with a bit of Obama"....what an absolute crock of bull****, delusion and double-standards! :mad:

While global issues did affect Ireland, domestic issues and mismanagement have made it ten times worse, and the fiasco that is Anglo and the associated Government decisions even added to that.

Guaranteeing banks apparently "had to" include Anglo, as it would have been "uncompetitive".....there was absolutely no concept of "jeez, lads, ye've completely pulled the piss and fiddled the books, so no, it's not uncompetitive to exclude a corrupt bank from a guarantee".

Anyone who suggests otherwise might have a look at how - for example - the dole would be given to "bail out" someone who's genuinely lost their job, but could be withheld from someone who was fired due to potentially criminal activities and who wasn't honest in their dealings with the relevant authorities.

Denerick

I honestly wonder what goes in your head. The electorate calls for massive increases in public spending - not un-natural given the booming tax revenues - and yet when FF abide by the wishes of the electorate (Something both FG and Labour promised to do so, in some cases wanting to go even further) they are now derided as traitors of the people. Call this my cynicism. But its this kind of logic that makes me think democracy will never work, as people will never take responsibility for their own actions and demands.

EDIT: Clearly the last sentance was a rhetorical flourish and not to be taken literally.

paddyland

It's quite simple, really.

Since Fianna Fáil are fundamentally flawed, institutionally corrupt and morally bankrupt as an organisation, it therefore makes absolutely no difference whether they do everything right or everything wrong to sort out this grotesque mess of their own making. Either way, I cannot trust a word out of any of their mouths, and either way, they will only screw up again any hypothetical gains the country might make in the future.

Since the foundation of this state, they have stood for a partisan society, ironic since historically they stood against the partition of the country by a physical border. No, the partition of this country they have endeavoured to maintain, has been a partition between those chosen favourites who were part of the boy's club, who could be trusted to look after their partisan organisation and guard it's gates, and everyone else outside of that organisation, who could go to hell on a handcart. The party who historically looked the other way as thousands emigrated out of dire misery and poverty, would today look away again as emigration unbelieveably returns in a supposedly modern first world country.

Fianna Fáil stands for Fianna Fáil and no other. You can sell your soul and hope to slip in under the side of the Galway tent, which exists still in every sense other than the physical sense. But if you care about your neighbour, and a fair society for ALL, then Fianna Fáil are your polar opposite.

I would see that party, and the poison it has propogated for over eighty years, wiped off the face of politics for good. The rot in the opposition parties is a rot fostered through eighty years of having to fight in a political arena dominated and controlled by FF interests. If you can't beat them, join them, for all intents and purposes. It is up to the opposition parties to find their own identity, if such a thing is possible, but for me at least, since I cannot vote for the annihilation of FF as a political entity, I can at least vote for somebody else, anybody, in the hopes that FF can be removed from office at the next election.

As a voter in our supposed democracy, I feel very small and powerless faced with a political system intent on looting my meagre contributions for personal and political gain, a product not entirely but for the most part of FF making.

Denerick

I always find it amazing how some people paint FF to be an arch villain straight out of a Victorian melodrama, yet don't comment on how they managed to be in power for most of the lifetime of this State. If this is the case, then the people are just as culpable for voting them in. Any other argument is intellectually dishonest if one refuses to share blame with the voters of this circle of (From what I have read on these boards) evil.

Eliot Rosewater

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'll be voting for Labour. Labour is the best bet to get the country working again. The best way to deal with our national debt is to get everyone into employment.

But Labour won't be able to do this. At the moment they seem to be planning to keep all expenditure as is. Gilmore has come out against social welfare cuts, and your party has promised to reverse the public sector pay cuts. Even if that reversal is in 2014, it still misses the point: public sector workers got dramatic and unwarranted increases in pay during the boom and this has to be undone.

On the Frontline we had a member of the Labour party saying a levy is a spending cut. The same member was shocked when lay offs in HSE administration were suggested.

If Labour is going to insist on standing by the trade unions they will have to raise tax rates sharpish. This is only going to negatively impact upon employment as profit margins go down. If Labour want to introduce government support for jobs they will have to tax existing jobs, thereby hurting employment again.

I just can't see it working.