Neanderthal 40k

Galvasean

It appears neantherthals arrived in Britain at the start of the ice age, some 40,000 years earlier than previously thought.
Makes me wonder if we'll ever find an Irish neanderthal... Where's that Wibbs fellow?

"I couldn't believe my eyes when I received the test results. We know that Neanderthals inhabited Northern France at this time, but this new evidence suggests that as soon as sea levels dropped, and a 'land bridge' appeared across the English Channel, they made the journey by foot to Kent," says Francis.

Early pre-Neanderthals inhabited Britain before the last ice age, but were forced south by a previous glaciation about 200,000 year ago. When the climate warmed up again between 130,000 and 110,000 years ago, they couldn't get back because, similar to today, the Channel sea-level was raised, blocking their path. This discovery shows they returned to our shores much earlier than 60,000 years ago, as previous evidence suggested.

Full story here.

Wibbs

I'd put money they were here. I'd also put money that earlier Erectus was here too. In the national museum they have a Neandertal tool on display. One found in Ireland. Its described as some sort of erratic brought by a glacier. Doesnt really fit. For a start it's in very good condition with little evidence of ice borne damage and secondly not too many glaciers went south to north. Unscientific arse basically.

The problem is the "accepted" theory. Man only got here after the last Ice age retreated(TM). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially given that I have in my collection a stone tool found in England 500,000 yrs ago. Indeed back in the day I found a couple of stones that looked worked in a way that doesn't suggest sapiens manufacture. I brought them to the national museum and was told in no uncertain terms that they couldnt be. Not that they weren't mind you, but that the simply couldn't be.

So they were in Britain at a time when these islands were connected and they never made it here? Eh no. I may get slated for this but archaeology in this country has been very blinkered and often run by rank bloody amateurs from the foundation of the state onwards.

Galvasean

Hey, I couldn't agree more. To get them to change their orthodox view you generally have to shove a lot of stuff up their a in their faces.
If the recent finds relating to archaic Homos in the past decade are antything to go by, even primitive people were excvellent travellers/migrators. They've shown up in plenty of places where people said they wouldn't, nay, couldn't have as if to say, "Fooled you again science!"

PS: Glad you took the bait Wibbs, was hoping you'd put that stuff into text one day. Hopefully someone will notice it.

Kess73

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd put money they were here. I'd also put money that earlier Erectus was here too. In the national museum they have a Neandertal tool on display. One found in Ireland. Its described as some sort of erratic brought by a glacier. Doesnt really fit. For a start it's in very good condition with little evidence of ice borne damage and secondly not too many glaciers went south to north. Unscientific arse basically.

The problem is the "accepted" theory. Man only got here after the last Ice age retreated(TM). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially given that I have in my collection a stone tool found in England 500,000 yrs ago. Indeed back in the day I found a couple of stones that looked worked in a way that doesn't suggest sapiens manufacture. I brought them to the national museum and was told in no uncertain terms that they couldnt be. Not that they weren't mind you, but that the simply couldn't be.

So they were in Britain at a time when these islands were connected and they never made it here? Eh no. I may get slated for this but archaeology in this country has been very blinkered and often run by rank bloody amateurs from the foundation of the state onwards.

Good post. Totally agree with everything you said, especially your closing comment.

steddyeddy

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd put money they were here. I'd also put money that earlier Erectus was here too. In the national museum they have a Neandertal tool on display. One found in Ireland. Its described as some sort of erratic brought by a glacier. Doesnt really fit. For a start it's in very good condition with little evidence of ice borne damage and secondly not too many glaciers went south to north. Unscientific arse basically.

The problem is the "accepted" theory. Man only got here after the last Ice age retreated(TM). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially given that I have in my collection a stone tool found in England 500,000 yrs ago. Indeed back in the day I found a couple of stones that looked worked in a way that doesn't suggest sapiens manufacture. I brought them to the national museum and was told in no uncertain terms that they couldnt be. Not that they weren't mind you, but that the simply couldn't be.

So they were in Britain at a time when these islands were connected and they never made it here? Eh no. I may get slated for this but archaeology in this country has been very blinkered and often run by rank bloody amateurs from the foundation of the state onwards.

Ah so by their logic if i found neanderthal bones in my back garden and brought them to the museum i would be told "their not neanderthal bones because they couldnt be", the attitude in some scientific fields astounds me.

Wibbs

Wellll they'd kinda have to in that case... So start digging! But yea the accepted theory is bloody hard to shift. I could understand it if Britain didnt have hominids present for the last 500,000 years, but it does. Now in Ireland we drew the short straw as the ice ages scraped most of the land clean of the last million years of deposits.

If I was looking for evidence? I'be looking in south west kerry and cork, where the ice sheets didnt quite reach(hence we have a toad population there found nowhere else and where common lizards are found in greater numbers). The problem is stone tools especially non sapiens ones can be hard enough to identify so people could be kicking one off a farm path at this very moment.

darjeeling

In tomorrow's 'In Our Time' at 9 a.m. on BBC R4 (198 LW), they're talking Neanderthals.

The panel is human palaeoontologist Chris Stringer, Danielle Schreve, who I guess you'd call a palaeogeographer, and Simon Conway Morris, the palaeobiologist more noted for his work on the Burgess Shale and later ideas on convergent evolution and religious apologetics - not sure what his angle is.

It'll be available on the web here.

steddyeddy

Wibbs wrote: »

Wellll they'd kinda have to in that case... So start digging! But yea the accepted theory is bloody hard to shift. I could understand it if Britain didnt have hominids present for the last 500,000 years, but it does. Now in Ireland we drew the short straw as the ice ages scraped most of the land clean of the last million years of deposits.

If I was looking for evidence? I'be looking in south west kerry and cork, where the ice sheets didnt quite reach(hence we have a toad population there found nowhere else and where common lizards are found in greater numbers). The problem is stone tools especially non sapiens ones can be hard enough to identify so people could be kicking one off a farm path at this very moment.

Very good wibbs a lot i didnt know there thanks, not meaning to post of topic but i wonder is there anything in irish legends that could refer to the neanderthals.

Galvasean

darjeeling wrote: »

.

The panel is human palaeoontologist Chris Stringer, Danielle Schreve,

As opposed to what, an orangutan palaeontologist?
[/bad joke]

Wibbs

steddyeddy wrote: »

Very good wibbs a lot i didnt know there thanks, not meaning to post of topic but i wonder is there anything in irish legends that could refer to the neanderthals.

I doubt it. While our legends do seem to suggest intertribal conflicts and possibly the conflict between later arrivals and the original neolithic moderns, it seems modern humans only got here from mainland europe after the ice sheets retreated at the end of the last ice age circa 11,000 years ago. By which time Neanderthals had been extinct for the guts of 20,000 years. Even if they had hung on for longer in Europe(which is possible given the dearth of fossils) they wouldn't have been in Ireland. So any legends would have come with the first moderns.

Moderns could have been here before that 11,000 yr old date in one of the warmer interglacials that had occurred within in the timeframe of modern europeans and maybe encountered Neanderthals then but chances of finding evidence of that would be incredibly slim. Stranger things have happened though.

Looking to the UK where the ice sheets never fully covered the whole island, we have a much narrower geology and narrower palaeontological record by comparison. Nowhere more obvious than in our lack of sediments of the last million years. We basically go from carboniferous deposits, with a tiny detour to jurassic, then a gap of 60 odd million years to post glacial deposits. We do have amazing carboniferous deposits(and precambrian) though. A very interesting time. Of which only the surface has been scratched. And likely never to be scratched deeper unless more amateurs start proper collecting.

In that collecting thats where someone might spot Neanderthal and other early modern evidence. Otherwise no one is looking basically. Palaeontology (and archaeology) have been driven in the past mostly by "amateurs". Some of the greatest discoveries and defo the greatest collections were made by amateurs. Most of the great musuem collections and their best exhibits were found and built by amateurs. With less and less resources set aside for this science(especially in Ireland) we need responsible amateurs more than ever.

Yitzhak Rabin

Wibbs wrote: »

In that collecting thats where someone might spot Neanderthal and other early modern evidence. Otherwise no one is looking basically. Palaeontology (and archaeology) have been driven in the past mostly by "amateurs". Some of the greatest discoveries and defo the greatest collections were made by amateurs. Most of the great musuem collections and their best exhibits were found and built by amateurs. With less and less resources set aside for this science(especially in Ireland) we need responsible amateurs more than ever.

Whats a good resource for starting amateur fossil hunting in Ireland or in general? Something that wouldtell you where to look and what you should be looking for?

Wibbs

The problem is Im not sure of the legality of it anymore. I did it as a kid, but from what I gather now its illegal to remove stone from the countryside without a licence or some such guff. Anyone got any info on that as it stands?

Location wise http://english.fossiel.net/locations/locations.php#ierland Ireland is covered with carboniferous limestone and thats usually packed with fossils.

http://english.fossiel.net/system/geolkaart/ireland.jpg

Old quarries can be a good bet if you have permission to enter. Can be dangerous though. Sea shores where the rock is eroding fossils out of the cliffs another good bet(note and watch the tides though!). Road cuttings another, though again take care re traffic.

Bring a camera to record where you find the fossil. Go for fossils already eroded out rather than in situ. Try to resist taking hammers to stuff in situ. If you dunno what youre about there's a high chance you may wreck the fossil. If you do buy a hammer get a specialised geologic hammer. Using a standard domestic type hammer is a very bad plan. The proper ones are specially toughened. Estwing are a good make. If you find anything large or interesting then note location and take a picture and maybe head for the natural history museum or the biology dept in a university? Funding for this stuff is pretty anorexic though so....

Galvasean

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that you were allowed take anything that had seperated from the rockface naturally. ie: you can't hack at the rocks with picks etc.

Again, I could be wrong so won't take responsibility for anyone who ends up in jail.