Time to end the brand extension

gimmick

This thread pops up about once a year, but Ill ask again, is it time to just go back to having one "brand"?

Undertakers injury has highlighted once again the alarming lack of main event calibre superstars on the books of WWE at present. The fact that Taker is 45 and has been around for the last 2 decades should mean that he should not be depended on heavily anymore, at most a special attraction type wrestler.

Between Raw and SD, the only realstic main eventers there are

Edge
Jericho
Cena
Untertaker
HHH
Batista
Randy Orton
CM Punk
Rey Mysterio
Sheamus
Jack Swagger

And even at that, I doubt the latter 4 stood alone would draw a cent. It is even questionable can Jericho or Edge do so on their own.

So, with the brand extension ending, it would add a better level of competition in the upper mid card area. This is where main eventers are born.

Looking at the best main eventers of the last 20 years - HHH, Rock, Austin, Dibiase, Macho Man, Kevin Nash, HBK - all of these guys were involved in strong mid card feuds for quite a while before they made the step up.

In other words, to have a strong main event scene you almost have to have a stronger mid card area, which WWE just do not have at the moment, and arguably have never had since the dawn of the extension in 2002.

Of course, we all know it will not happen as money is being made off both brands with their international house shows, and at the end of the day that is what is more important to McMahon and his shareholders for obvious reasons.

cena

I believe that we would have better story lines if it was too put both brands together. but would some of the wrestlers have too be let go if this was too happen, I just can't see how there would be room for all them on one brand.

Just a question have do you become a share holding in the wwe company. if some money coming too me this from an accident and would like too invest a small bit of the money.

Mr. Guappa

I don't think combining the brands is the answer to the current talent shortage, this would just overexpose the likes of Cena even further and eat up air time that the likes of MVP and Kofi could be getting on SmackDown. Look at how CM Punk progressed over the past year when he was given time to develop his character, this would not have happened if Cena and Triple H were competing for airtime on SmackDown.

waltersobchak

Personally im of the opinion that WWEs "developmental" territories have been WWEs downfall since the end of the Attitude era until now. And at a guess id say since 2002 at least 200 wrestlers have been called up to the main roster and less than 10% are either still there or lasted more than a year without getting future endeavored.. And the majority of the talent couldn't get over because they didn't have the tools or the knowledge from working around the world and differant territories like guys in the past did...

gimmick

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I don't think combining the brands is the answer to the current talent shortage, this would just overexpose the likes of Cena even further and eat up air time that the likes of MVP and Kofi could be getting on SmackDown. Look at how CM Punk progressed over the past year when he was given time to develop his character, this would not have happened if Cena and Triple H were competing for airtime on SmackDown.

That why you need to hark back to tbefore the Attitude Era when the champion was a special event in himself, we would only see Hogan, generally speaking, in and around PPV time. Same can be done nowadays. Cena does not have to be on every episode of Raw. Nor does Orton or who ever. You can build a champion just as well, if not far better, by not having him on TV everytime. That adds something special to his appearance on the PPV or the rare occasion he should show up on Raw/SD.

There is 5 hours programming a week. That is more than enough time for the likes of Kofi and MVP and Ted Jr to shine. It would just mean elevating the IC/US title to a decent level again, something people strive for and use it as a gateway to the main event again.

JP Liz V1

SD got the short straw in the draft this year imo only Christian and MVP were the top draws for SD and both are not in world title scene on SD - Edge or Jericho should have stayed on SD

I think if the brand extension was to end alot of the superstars especially the up and coming stars would be lost and not pushed or let go

The Volt

There's no easy answer to this. This would've done nicely in ATH :pac:

As long as the brand extension continues, Raw will always be looked at as the main brand. Perhaps they could look into a scenario where the overall aim is to get onto Raw from SmackDown

Mr. Guappa

gimmick wrote: »

That why you need to hark back to tbefore the Attitude Era when the champion was a special event in himself, we would only see Hogan, generally speaking, in and around PPV time. Same can be done nowadays. Cena does not have to be on every episode of Raw. Nor does Orton or who ever. You can build a champion just as well, if not far better, by not having him on TV everytime. That adds something special to his appearance on the PPV or the rare occasion he should show up on Raw/SD.

There is 5 hours programming a week. That is more than enough time for the likes of Kofi and MVP and Ted Jr to shine. It would just mean elevating the IC/US title to a decent level again, something people strive for and use it as a gateway to the main event again.

The difference nowadays is that they have 5 hours of programming to fill compared to 1-2 hours in the pre-Attitude era. Fans today expect to see the big names when to attend shows or tune in on tv, so I don't think having the top stars appear less frequently is likely to happen. One of the reasons for the brand extension in the first place was to limit the exposure of the top guys to once a week.

jaykhunter

gimmick wrote: »

This thread pops up about once a year, but Ill ask again, is it time to just go back to having one "brand"?

LOL, yep. It's been time for ooh...about 6 years now. Problem with burying WCW talent (back in 2001) is that they're buried and you can't use them any more. But WWE have been in a talent crisis since at least 2005. Since Batista and Cena, the only new established main eventers are Hardy, Punk (you could argue Orton and Edge) ....at least they're trying now.

But yes, look how weak SD! is. But no, WWE won't close the dual brands because they can tour separately, more money with a 2nd show and that's what it's all about.

SD! is getting high ones, it needs to be doing much worse to be dropped.....let's hope it drops to iMPACT ratings and Vince will do something about it.

Gosh, imagine if WWE bought out TNA and infused it into SmackDown. Amazing.

Icky Thump

they dont need to end the brand extention. they have more than enough to cover both brands.

i think that the WWE and World Heavyweight champions shouldnt wrestle until PPV's. they should appear every week on their respective shows but should be seen in a higher role like the GM. they shouldnt have to wrestle because they are the main events.

there should be alot more focus put on the US championship(with only Americans able to win) and they should bring back the Euro Championship(with only europeans able to win) and then have the Intercontinental Championship for anyone who is a former Euro Champion or US Champion.

the realistic main eventers at the moment are (the real money makers)
Orton
Cena
HHH
Undertaker
Edge
Jerico
Batista(if he does come back)

the potential main eventers are
Swagger
Sheamus
Rey
McIntyre
CM Punk
Kofi
Big Show
DiBiase
Bourne
Christian

Mid-carders
Ziggler
Masters
Rhodes
JTG
Kane
MVP
Matt Hardy
R-Truth
Morrison
Mark Henry
Miz
Kozluv
Tatsu
Ryder
Regal
Khali
thats not even mentioning the hart dynasty, the NXT rookies or the new tag twins.


there is way too big a list to combine the shows

jaykhunter

That's a cool list and i agree with your rankings, except that Rey and Punk are also main eventers. But only the main-eventers draw money. So adding the two, you have 9, split over two shows, which is 4 each, really....seeing as Batista, Tripper and Taker are left/out/sporadic, it's really 6 right now. It's not enough to fill two hours twice a week! (which is why they have wrestlers crossing shows all the time)

That midcard is a disgrace by the way! (i mean where's the talent, lol. You left out The Miz )

Just wondering, are you happy with the quality of the smackdown roster? Do you think it's good enough and the ratings it gets (high 1s) doesn't parallel to it's depth?

davrho

jaykhunter wrote: »

But yes, look how weak SD! is. But no, WWE won't close the dual brands because they can tour separately, more money with a 2nd show and that's what it's all about.

SD! is getting high ones, it needs to be doing much worse to be dropped.....let's hope it drops to iMPACT ratings and Vince will do something about it.

Gosh, imagine if WWE bought out TNA and infused it into SmackDown. Amazing.

Is Smackdown weak just now becase its running down the tv contract? I would imagine the brand will be boosted when it switches to Sci-Fi.

WWE is in a transitional period just.

I agree with Waltersobchak. There has been loads of new talent pushed over the last few years. Did the fans just not take to them or were they just not good enough. Did wwe fail in the promotion of the rookies? NXT i think is a better way of introducing new talent and could be the way forward.

Ikky Thump is correct to there is plenty on the roster to cover 2 shows.

All good points on this thread to be honest.

Mr. Guappa

waltersobchak wrote: »

Personally im of the opinion that WWEs "developmental" territories have been WWEs downfall since the end of the Attitude era until now. And at a guess id say since 2002 at least 200 wrestlers have been called up to the main roster and less than 10% are either still there or lasted more than a year without getting future endeavored.. And the majority of the talent couldn't get over because they didn't have the tools or the knowledge from working around the world and differant territories like guys in the past did...

While I would agree with this to an extent, I would also say that the WWE could have done more to help some of the guys it has called up to Raw/SD over the last few years.

Remember when they would show little video clips in the weeks leading up to a newcomers debut? These really helped to get a buzz going I always felt.

Then they take a talented guy like Colt Cabana and saddle him with a stupid name and have him lose every week and wonder how come he doesn't get over!!

jaykhunter

Surely you'd want to build up your brand so to have strong ratings when you do make the switch? When SmackDown switched channels last they lost a few hundred thousand viewers, and had to work at getting them back over the next year or so.

fyi....

UPN (August 26, 1999 – September 15, 2006)
The CW (September 22, 2006 – September 26, 2008)
MyNetworkTV (October 3, 2008 – present)
SyFy (Fall 2010)

SmackDown moving to CW : Great move, going from roughly 2.2 to 2.6 for the rest of the year.
SmackDown movie to MyNet : Bad move, going from roughly 2.3 down to 1.9 (first show on MyNet), and rose to 2.1 by year's end. They've never gotten back to 2.3 consistently (only once reached a 2.3, Feb 27th) and usually don't break into 2's anymore.

source : http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/wwe-ratings/

The only way WWE can redeem SmackDown is with another WWE Draft right before the move, or the first night of the move. But decimating your brand (even if you plan to build it up in 6 months) will turn people off the brand, people will just tune out and I'd wager a sizeable amount won't tune back in when the time comes. Hopefully for SD, WWE are planning to re-stock SD! right before/at the move and grab their fans that they've turned away.

SmackDown's main eventers :
CM Punk
Undertaker (not full time)
Rey Mysterio (injured)
That's it!

People WWE can/would put in against main eventers :
Big Show
Swagger
that's it!

I think it's great WWE are finally pulling the finger out and making new stars. But they're making stars, they aren't stars yet. There's hope for the future (i.e. 4-5 years down the line) but we'll have to make do with a mostly mid-card roster for the time being.

Fair dues to ya if you're still watching SD....not enough talent for me to care about.

waltersobchak

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

While I would agree with this to an extent, I would also say that the WWE could have done more to help some of the guys it has called up to Raw/SD over the last few years.

Remember when they would show little video clips in the weeks leading up to a newcomers debut? These really helped to get a buzz going I always felt.

Then they take a talented guy like Colt Cabana and saddle him with a stupid name and have him lose every week and wonder how come he doesn't get over!!

I completely agree with you.. I 100% blame WWE management, and its hierarchy for not letting young talent get over and also for letting the older guys clutch on to their main event spot. Colt Cabana is the perfect example of someone(for whatever reason) WWE just wouldn't let get over and certainly made no effort in pushing, he just showed up on TV with no rhyme or reason, and gave the average fan no reason to get behind him..


Tbh(And ive said this before) Ive always gotten the impression that Brock Lesnar did some serious damange with WWE management, and certainly stopped them being so trusting with pushing younger wrestlers into that main event spot. Sheamus is the first guy since Lesnar that was pushed that hard that quickly, and thats taken about 8 years..

Mr.Nice Guy

I would like to see the brand extension ended as they don't even try to pretend that they are rival brands any more, but, I think if they were to do so, then they would be left with a lot of mid-card guys that would either be lost in the shuffle or would have to be released.

Wasn't there a plan a few years back to have regional promotions, ie. a WWE Mexican show, one in Europe etc.? I'm sure I read about that.

Anyway, realistically if the brand extension ended, the likes of Cena, Edge, Jericho and pretty much most of the Raw roster would have to be the main event guys and the likes of Swagger, Punk, Rey would just end up being mid-card guys. That would mean the likes of Kofi, R Truth, Bryan etc. would either be struggling to get TV time, or be in FCW, or cut.

I actually think in a time when they need to build stars quickly, the brand extension is quite useful as it gives guys a platform to get over. The problem is for the last couple of years the WWE have refused to try and really elevate new guys, and have stuck with the likes of Hunter and Taker in the title picture. They should have really tried to build new stars sooner. (In fairness they tried with Jeff so I'll give them credit for that).

I think it's a double-edged sword. If they ended the extension their ratings would probably pick up but they would still have the problem of relying on the old guys. So it's probably for the best to stick with trying to get over new guys as quick as possible.

Ridley

If you consider Sheamus and Swagger realistic main eventers (personally Swagger yes, Sheamus noooooooo(t yet anyway)) then I don't see the problem there considering how quickly they moved from mid-card/jobbersville to the main event.

As bizarre as it was to see Evan Bourne open and close Raw, at the minute I'm waiting on Triple H's return to see if eveything falls back into the way it was... well before he left. For now, though, Raw's fresher than it has been in a while and Smackdown's good at making do with what they seemingly get saddled with.

If anything, it's the mid-card that needs reinforced, and the ending the brand split sure ain't the answer to that in my view but I'm mostly happy in the crazy (WWE) universe of Bourne wins, Cole/Bryan fueds, Swaggies, and Punk being the best character when he isn't even the focus of the main event.

Bounty Hunter

the brand extension could be ended now more than ever before imo but now is not the time as now young stars are finally getting pushed on both shows and no matter what way you look at it that would be affected by having both rosters on both shows.

Diabhal Beag

The problem is not the amount of wrestlers its the fact there are no real new stars filling in older names spots. The injuries wouldn't be as big a deal if say Daniel Bryan was being built as a top star.

RAW last Monday was great. They decided to built new stars on one show. The Ussos, Daniel Bryan and especially Evan Bourne were all given a chance to become big names on RAW.

I hope WWE learn to build new talent up instead of keeping HHH strong and making our lad Sheamy look bad in comparsion.

BUILD NEW STARS!!!!!!!!!

Bounty Hunter

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

The problem is not the amount of wrestlers its the fact there are no real new stars filling in older names spots. The injuries wouldn't be as big a deal if say Daniel Bryan was being built as a top star.

RAW last Monday was great. They decided to built new stars on one show. The Ussos, Daniel Bryan and especially Evan Bourne were all given a chance to become big names on RAW.

I hope WWE learn to build new talent up instead of keeping HHH strong and making our lad Sheamy look bad in comparsion.

BUILD NEW STARS!!!!!!!!!

its always easier to criticise the product we watch as it is never likely to reach the heights we know it can all the time but you are right and the WWE deserve credit. Id even go one further and say that for months the WWE have been building potential stars for the future much better than in recent times and now they just need to pull the trigger on a few of them. Jericho also put truth over on Raw this week

waltersobchak

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

its always easier to criticise the product we watch as it is never likely to reach the heights we know it can all the time but you are right and the WWE deserve credit. Id even go one further and say that for months the WWE have been building potential stars for the future much better than in recent times and now they just need to pull the trigger on a few of them. Jericho also put truth over on Raw this week

WWE has definiitely been better now in the last 6 months than at any other time in the last 8-9 years for sure..

davrho

jaykhunter wrote: »

Surely you'd want to build up your brand so to have strong ratings when you do make the switch? When SmackDown switched channels last they lost a few hundred thousand viewers, and had to work at getting them back over the next year or so.

fyi....
SmackDown moving to CW : Great move, going from roughly 2.2 to 2.6 for the rest of the year.
SmackDown movie to MyNet : Bad move, going from roughly 2.3 down to 1.9 (first show on MyNet), and rose to 2.1 by year's end. They've never gotten back to 2.3 consistently (only once reached a 2.3, Feb 27th) and usually don't break into 2's anymore.

source : http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/wwe-ratings/

The only way WWE can redeem SmackDown is with another WWE Draft right before the move, or the first night of the move.

This does not tell the whole story. The local bar we drink in Orlando did not have this channel. My mates house we stay in does not have this channel. We could watch Raw and ECW. Smackdown lost lots of fans because the channel it was shown on. Sci-fi is on all the networks and cable providers so its accesable.

I imagine there will be a temporary transfer of talent at the switchover but as Raw is contracted to the USA Network as the flagship show it will always have the upper hand with the roster.

DM_7

The Brand extension needs to stay.

If the brands were joined back up the top guys would have to work even harder.

I like the way they have two brands, when it comes to tours and a fan buys a raw ticket he knows he is going to get the raw wrestlers.

When it comes to watching the shows I know I should get a continuation of last weeks show and who to expect to see. It also prevents overkill of a storyline as there is a week between a development in each feud.

I also like the fact more people get a chance to be a champion in the current environment. I would hate to see guys like Punk be reduced to feck all tv time to create a new persona.

G-Money

I personally don't really like the brand extension, or perhaps mostly the fact that we've a WWE champ and World Heavyweight champ. I think they need to scrap those two and just have the WWE champ.

I was thinking recently about what stars WWE have made to real main eventers and the list was short.

I remember at WM 20, Cena was in the opening match against Big Show for the US Title. At WM 21 he won the WWE title. As much as I like the Miz, I can't see them giving him a huge push and making him WWE champ within a year. Or anyone else who is currently the US or IC champ.

The other guys that sticks out that they've made is Orton. Not so long ago he was just the IC champ and the young guy in Evolution, but look at him now.

Having said that, I don't think Orton or Edge are at the level yet where they can draw like Cena, HHH or Taker. Jericho either unfortunately.

The other big star they had was Jeff Hardy, but he's gone to TNA. He could draw I think, I know I certainly would pay money to go see him. Big Dave is off the air now for a while and despite all the flak he receives, he's still one of the biggest draws in the company. And another guy I'd pay money to see.

They've got some good talent. CM Punk is the best heel on SD now and possibly in the company. I like Sheamus I have to admit, although I wasn't mad keen on him at the start. However I buy him now as someone who deserves to be in the main event.

jaykhunter

jaykhunter wrote: »

Surely you'd want to build up your brand so to have strong ratings when you do make the switch? When SmackDown switched channels last they lost a few hundred thousand viewers, and had to work at getting them back over the next year or so.

fyi....
SmackDown moving to CW : Great move, going from roughly 2.2 to 2.6 for the rest of the year.
SmackDown movie to MyNet : Bad move, going from roughly 2.3 down to 1.9 (first show on MyNet), and rose to 2.1 by year's end. They've never gotten back to 2.3 consistently (only once reached a 2.3, Feb 27th) and usually don't break into 2's anymore.

source : http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/wwe-ratings/

just to back up my point :

UPN/CW is available in 110 million homes, My Network ~109 million homes, so there is no difference in availability really. However the move from CW to MyNet cost them a few hundred thousand viewers that they've never gotten back.

However Sy-Fy is in ~97 million homes, so in the current situation, their numbers will drop, not just from switching networks, but also the ~11% drop in availability. Do WWE just want to tell SyFy that their numbers will just drop, or do something about it?

Interestingly, SyFy will be paying WWE $385,000 per Snackdown show, whereas My Network is paying WWE approximately $705,000 per show; which does reason why SmackDown only has 3 money-drawers on the books and only 1 regularly active. (Mysterio and Taker not being regularly active right now)

On a side note, WGN is paying WWE almost $350,000 for each episode of Superstars.

source : PileDriverWrestling.net

Despite the sidebar my point is that although for our benefit, they shouldn't have SmackDown at all (and combine the rosters), but money-wise; they'll keep 'em separate. It's all about the money*

*unless Vince has personal issues with them (Macho Man, WCW etc)

flahavaj

No to ending the brand extension as it'd just mean doubling the amount of HHH/Cena/Orton on TV and even less time for the mid card to get much needed airtime.

Though TNA/ the indies would benefit massively from the raft of redundancies it'd create in the next few months.

TheTosh

They should have a raw SD war a proper one similar to the invasion storyline.

D2D

TheTosh wrote: »

They should have a raw SD war a proper one similar to the invasion storyline.

Hmm.....