[Heritage] Hill of Howth Tramway

steamengine

The Hill of Howth tramway, closed in 1959, was an example of a very popular tourist and day tripper amenity which was abandoned ostensibly for financial reasons. The closure in the eyes of many was shortsighted as the Howth tram was as well known as Nelson's pillar from a tourist perspective.

The open air top was a really magnificent way to see Dublin Bay as you climbed from Sutton to the summit, and the steep descent into Howth village was sometimes rapid and slightly alarming, although I don't ever recall hearing of a braking failure.

Apparently there is presently (2009) a submission from Howth/Sutton Community Council to Fingal Co Council concerning an envisaged restoration of the tramway to The Summit along the old alignment and also mooted is a track along the promenade. It would be interesting to find out if there is any further info regarding this proposed venture ???

Judgement Day

Sounds a little unlikely to me as I know that the Transport Museum Society of Ireland http://www.nationaltransportmuseum.org/ have been struggling on against the odds for years just to restore what they have let alone go rebuilding even a short section of the route. Of course the line should never have been closed in the first place but those voices who protested at the time were ignored and proposals for summer only operations dismissed. When compared to the still operational Manx Electric Railway on the Isle of Man, the potential passenger traffic on the Hill of Howth Tramway would be massive and would certainly become one of Dublin's premier tourist attractions. However, this is Ireland and we do things differently here. They (Bord Failte or whatever it's called this week) would spend more than it would cost to restore the whole tramway, building an interpretative centre about it. :mad:

Have a look at this video of the National Tramway Museum at Crich in Derbyshire - it would make you weep! Hill of Howth tram No.10 is at the Crich Museum while No. 2 went to California and No. 4 to Belfast. Jim Kilroy and his dedicated team have spent the last 30 (!) years restoring No.9 at Howth and it is hoped that she will soon run again.

Judgement Day

These five You Tube videos of the short film "Once Upon a Tram" capture something of the beauty of the line a few years before closure. Start with part .1. here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzeMR9Y3RQ

lord lucan

As a nipper i used to be out in Howth a lot,brought out by my grandparents every second weekend. As a kid i remember the road overbridge at Howth station that carried the tram across the main road and off on it's journey around Howth head. I was fascinated with it(tied in with my love of choo choo's i suppose!) and used to get my uncle to bring me up along the old alignment as far as was possible. Great days.

I'd love to see it back,both for nostalgia reasons,pure selfish i know but it's my dream:p,and as JD points out,for tourism reasons. It could certainly pull in a reasonable amount of cash if it ran from say March until October. Wouldn't fancy a spin over Howth head on the top deck with a cold easterly blowing!:eek:

I think some of the old alignment has been built upon but not enough to deter a route around the head. Honestly i can't see it ever happening but it's nice to dream.:)

The good old days,here's JD's vids in one long piece:http://www.europafilmtreasures.eu/PY/261/see-the-film-once_upon_a_tram

Judgement Day

Good man lord lucan - I knew that I had seen the complete film somewhere. Sadly it won't let you make a copy though.

Atlantic Dawn

I don't think demand would be there for it. To gauge interest they should start with an open top bus leaving the train station but I couldn't even see that being feasible.

Great clip Judgement Day, great to see the old Howth.

lord lucan

Judgement Day wrote: »

Good man lord lucan - I knew that I had seen the complete film somewhere. Sadly it won't let you make a copy though.

If you download Realplayer SP (it's free)it should allow you to copy it,works with most Youtube and other video sites.

corktina

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't think demand would be there for it. To gauge interest they should start with an open top bus leaving the train station but I couldn't even see that being feasible.

Great clip Judgement Day, great to see the old Howth.

if theres one thing Ireland is short of, its tourist attractions. Id say it would be lack of Vounteers that would be the problem

munchkin_utd

corktina wrote: »

if theres one thing Ireland is short of, its tourist attractions. Id say it would be lack of Vounteers that would be the problem

Things like this would be great for the tourist industry. There was 4.3 Million foreign visitors in 2008 so a MASSIVE market there.
The number of day trippers from the vicinity of Dublin also wouldn't be insignificant. There's 1.66 Million people living in the greater Dublin Area.

The celtic tiger brought the infrastructure of the country forward in leaps and bounds but its a pity that the tourist infrastructure for "stuff to do" wasnt invested in.
(as opposed to the billions of lost tax revenue blown on hundreds of tax incentivised 5 star spa hotels for the irish neuveau riche.)

Judgement Day

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Things like this would be great for the tourist industry. There was 4.3 Million foreign visitors in 2008 so a MASSIVE market there.
The number of day trippers from the vicinity of Dublin also wouldn't be insignificant. There's 1.66 Million people living in the greater Dublin Area.

The celtic tiger brought the infrastructure of the country forward in leaps and bounds but its a pity that the tourist infrastructure for "stuff to do" wasnt invested in.
(as opposed to the billions of lost tax revenue blown on hundreds of tax incentivised 5 star spa hotels for the irish neuveau riche.)

Don't forget golf courses and 'heritage/visitor centres'! :rolleyes:
In the case of heritage centres EU funding regulations were routinely ignored by Bord Failte i.e. one condition of funding was a projection of how many additional tourists the centres would bring in. How many tourists make their decision on where to stay based on the proximity of a visitor centre whereas plenty do on the basis of their being a steam railway/theme park etc nearby.

DWCommuter

lord lucan wrote: »

If you download Realplayer SP (it's free)it should allow you to copy it,works with most Youtube and other video sites.

The download feature is blocked for copyright reasons.

lord lucan

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Things like this would be great for the tourist industry. There was 4.3 Million foreign visitors in 2008 so a MASSIVE market there.
The number of day trippers from the vicinity of Dublin also wouldn't be insignificant. There's 1.66 Million people living in the greater Dublin Area.

The celtic tiger brought the infrastructure of the country forward in leaps and bounds but its a pity that the tourist infrastructure for "stuff to do" wasnt invested in.
(as opposed to the billions of lost tax revenue blown on hundreds of tax incentivised 5 star spa hotels for the irish neuveau riche.)

And unusually for a 'possible' tourist attraction in Ireland it'd have excellent transport links,ie. Dart at Howth & Sutton and a number of bus routes. Accessibility is key with these things. The oft mentioned Moyasta Railway is a great idea but it's in the middle of nowhere. I don't have a car so i'd have to get a train to Limerick or maybe Ennis and try and get a bus from there(not even sure if that's possible?!). Anyways,point is it's awkward to get to and will put people off travelling. Howth is only 25 minutes or so from the city centre by DART.

corktina

its a good time to start this as I think Blackpool are modernisaing its fleet so there could be some redundant equipment going

steamengine

lord lucan wrote: »

And unusually for a 'possible' tourist attraction in Ireland it'd have excellent transport links,ie. Dart at Howth & Sutton and a number of bus routes. Accessibility is key with these things. The oft mentioned Moyasta Railway is a great idea but it's in the middle of nowhere. I don't have a car so i'd have to get a train to Limerick or maybe Ennis and try and get a bus from there(not even sure if that's possible?!). Anyways,point is it's awkward to get to and will put people off travelling. Howth is only 25 minutes or so from the city centre by DART.

Ironically it did have, but its pointless dwelling in the past. I spent many happy hours as a kid traversing the route on the trams and I would have no doubts whatsover about the tourist potential. Any way forward would have to include enthusiasts as the powers to be in the tourism industry seem to lack any vision outside of 'heritage centres' etc. So could this be a realisable heritage project ? It seems that a few pieces of the jigsaw are in place already, and it would be interesting to get a Local (Howth/Sutton) point of view on it.

Enjoyed the movies - thanks JD and yourself.

Here's the link with the info i mentioned.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/DevelopmentPlanSubmissions/Submissions/PW0151/7D64B3-SUB.pdf

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

its a good time to start this as I think Blackpool are modernisaing its fleet so there could be some redundant equipment going

And guess what is (or was) running up and down the prom there ??? A Howth tram !!!

corktina

really? that I didnt know...are you sure? Must be a special occasion...

tricky D

I'm local.

No chance of them restoring it. Firstly, the demand is poor. The old 88 bus which replaced the tram, was stopped 10/20 years ago and revived recently as the 31C, only to be pulled again a few years ago. It's a really handy route for locals but nevertheless there's nowhere near enough demand. It is a lovely journey though if you get the 31C to the summit with some great views from the upper deck. The previous buses were single deckers. Some of the coastal tour buses travel it. Secondly, the route would be very difficult to restore due to much greater road traffic and no space at Howth Station (and Sutton for that matter) and the small matter of the bridge at Howth Station.

There's a few more articles linked from this page:
http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/page2.html
in the neighbourhood, NorthDub and especially jimkilroy

corktina

we arent talking of restoring it as a service, we are talking about a tourist attraction...

a bit like this.. http://www.greatormetramway.co.uk/ .Dublin is aheelova lot bigger than Llandudno!

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

really? that I didnt know...are you sure? Must be a special occasion...

Yep, have a dvd showing No 10 in action on the Blackpool Prom in 1985. Its in Crich now, I understand (just found out). Great !!! We can't set up our own heritage tramway, but can supply all the parts to others !!!

steamengine

tricky D wrote: »

I'm local.

No chance of them restoring it. Firstly, the demand is poor. The old 88 bus which replaced the tram, was stopped 10/20 years ago and revived recently as the 31C, only to be pulled again a few years ago. It's a really handy route for locals but nevertheless there's nowhere near enough demand. It is a lovely journey though if you get the 31C to the summit with some great views from the upper deck. The previous buses were single deckers. Some of the coastal tour buses travel it. Secondly, the route would be very difficult to restore due to much greater road traffic and no space at Howth Station (and Sutton for that matter) and the small matter of the bridge at Howth Station.

There's a few more articles linked from this page:
http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/page2.html
in the neighbourhood, NorthDub and especially jimkilroy

Thanks - referring to the submission from Howth/Sutton Community Council , someone or some organisation must actively be in favour of the idea though, for it to be included. ???

Judgement Day

I searched You Tube for some decent footage of the Manx Electric Railway on the Isle of Man and sadly this was the best that I could find, but at least it gives a flavour of tramway running in Howth type terrain. The Isle of Man has some of the best tourist attractions in the British Isles packed into a tiny area. However, due to the Manx Government being nearly as bad as our lot with a tourist board which makes Bord Failte/Failte Eireann, or whatever it's called, look wonderful, their tourist industry is in melt-down mode. Maybe we can have some of their trams.

tricky D

steamengine wrote: »

Thanks - referring to the submission from Howth/Sutton Community Council , someone or some organisation must be in favour of the idea though, for it to be included ???

It's a great idea and most would love it. Unfortunately it's just not feasible as it would mainly be a tourist attraction running for up to 6 months and mainly at weekends. The costs couldn't be justified. To put in context, the Transport Museum barely survives on a shoe-string budget as it is. It's got some great exhibits but the location is very cramped so it's a pity that visitors can't step back to get a decent view of the exhibits. It also suffers from basically being in a cowshed. Now if they built a proper big museum over the Techcrete site, that'd be..... (dream on).

Judgement Day

tricky D wrote: »

It's a great idea and most would love it. Unfortunately it's just not feasible as it would mainly be a tourist attraction running for up to 6 months and mainly at weekends. The costs couldn't be justified. To put in context, the Transport Museum barely survives on a shoe-string budget as it is. It's got some great exhibits but the location is very cramped so it's a pity that visitors can't step back to get a decent view of the exhibits. It also suffers from basically being in a cowshed. Now if they built a proper big museum over the Techcrete site, that'd be..... (dream on).

You've put your finger on the problem - it's catch 22. The museum is in two cow sheds and despite its interesting collection is only of passing interest to all but the diehard transport enthusiast. Whereas in a proper museum such as that at Cultra, the exhibits could be properly displayed and the public would come in their droves. Ditto the Hill of Howth tram doesn't bring many in right now but running, even on a demonstration track, and people will come. It is an appalling indictment of past governments, 'so-called' Heritage ministers, Bord Failte, the National Museum, the Heritage Council that things are in their present state. If the ****ing electorate in Howth put a gun to their local politicians heads this thing could be done - the museum and the running tram but as I said previously this is Ireland. :mad:

Typewriter

corktina wrote: »

really? that I didnt know...are you sure? Must be a special occasion...

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]10
Hill of Howth (Great Northern Railway of Ireland)

[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]G.F.Milnes 1902

- in Blackpool from 1985-89
- now at the National Tramway Museum, Crich[/FONT]



Hill of Howth 10
Built in 1902 this tram operated on a short but scenic route north of Dublin and is the only Irish car in the collection at Crich. On display.

Judgement Day

National Transport Museum at Howth review from About.com Ireland Travel


Guide Review - National Transport Museum (Howth, County Dublin)
Situated on Howth Hill near the castle and the golf course, this museum is housed in some enormous halls. What you are looking at is basically a huge storage facility. limited funds, a large number of exhibits and the small amount of floorspace available combine to make the exhibition less than visitor-friendly. Which is a shame.

Fans of old vehicles are sure to find unique exhibits. Tucked away in a corner you might discover an Irish Armored Personnel Carrier - a DIY-job on a commercial truck chassis. Close by an ambulance with the Guinness brand name and a fire-fighting trailer astonishes. Dublin's trams can be seen, as can some buses. It is an Aladdin's Cave combined with a rabbit warren.

Photography is frustrating - you will have to rely on detail shots or suffer other exhibits to intrude.

My final verdict is caveat emptor - if you are a die-hard transport enthusiast, go and you will be delighted. All others ... better spend the time walking in Howth Harbor.

Judgement Day

Another review of Howth Museum here: http://www.dublin-life.co.uk/museums.html which 'incredibly' uses a photo of the interior of Cultra to illustrate the entry! Anybody dropping in after seeing this ad is in for a shock.

lord lucan

Judgement Day wrote: »

Another review of Howth Museum here: http://www.dublin-life.co.uk/museums.html which 'incredibly' uses a photo of the interior of Cultra to illustrate the entry! Anybody dropping in after seeing this ad is in for a shock.

Imagine some enthusiast walking in expecting to see Maebh or Dunluce Castle in there!:pac:

Thanks for the Manx video JD,brings back memories. Was over in Douglas in '97 and tried to cover as much of it as possible,both electric and steam. Unfortunately i had the wife with me so it curtailed my wanderings a little.:D

Judgement Day

lord lucan wrote: »

Imagine some enthusiast walking in expecting to see Maebh or Dunluce Castle in there!:pac:

Thanks for the Manx video JD,brings back memories. Was over in Douglas in '97 and tried to cover as much of it as possible,both electric and steam. Unfortunately i had the wife with me so it curtailed my wanderings a little.:D

Lived over there for a few years and had a residents ticket for all the rail lines - something like £20 per annum - it was absolute magic. Pub crawling from Ramsey to Douglas and then along the Prom by horse tram with a few more pubs thrown in and home to a house overlooking the steam railway station. Just above the trees in this pic.

Judgement Day

And here for any of you nostalgic old farts incurable romantics like myself is another classic: THE LAST HOWTH TRAM (May, 1959) - Joe Linnane talks to the driver during the scenic five mile journey from Sutton to Howth on the last ever Howth Tram (3 mins. 33 secs. in RealAudio.) This works on Real Player and is downloadable.

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/javaengland/rte/

and "Once Upon a Tram" is available as a DVD here: http://www.panamint.co.uk/acatalog/ifi.html - £19.99 (Including VAT at 17.5%)

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

if theres one thing Ireland is short of, its tourist attractions. Id say it would be lack of Vounteers that would be the problem

+1.....certainly is short of tourist attractions, not alone heritage railways. Think of all the years this country has been engaged in tourism and we still have no world class theme park eg Alton Towers with a World class big dipper.

With regard to running the Howth tram again, yes I do think volunteerism would be essential as that forms the base for most heritage rail set ups.

Its a win, win situation, enthusiasts can live their dream, contribute usefully, and the cost base is kept to a minimum. Particularly suitable are retired active people who possess a lifetime of skills, some of which can be invaluable to such a project.

corktina

Howth COULD be done, and I feel it would be money better spent than that wasted on the Western Sub Aqua Railway....

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

Howth COULD be done, and I feel it would be money better spent than that wasted on the Western Sub Aqua Railway....

+1... I don't know how the DCDR funded their railway but as volunteers they manually laid the ballast, sleepers and tracks themselves, even relocated a stone building that serves as the main railway station and a whole lot else. The cost would be minimal compared to the WSAR as you call it !!! I don't see why the DCDR model couldn't be copied down here, and transferred to a project like Howth.

steamengine

Judgement Day wrote: »

Lived over there for a few years and had a residents ticket for all the rail lines - something like £20 per annum - it was absolute magic. Pub crawling from Ramsey to Douglas and then along the Prom by horse tram with a few more pubs thrown in and home to a house overlooking the steam railway station. Just above the trees in this pic.

If I ever got to design my own heaven it would be exactly as above !!! Nice one !!!:D

Judgement Day

And here is Hill of Howth tram #2 at Orange Empire Railway Museum
(Southern California's Railway Museum) at Perris, California, USA
http://www.oerm.org. We are a great country for disposing of our heritage - out of sight out of mind. :rolleyes:



PS There are lashing of Orange Empire Railway Museum videos on You Tube, and I'm sure No.2. is on one of them but my enthusiasm isn't what it once was - perhaps somebody else will post a link if they have the stamina to watch hours of 'foreign' stuff?

Judgement Day

And to complete the picture of the ones that got away here is No.4. at the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum in Cultra.

Run_to_da_hills

In Seattle during the 80's a 1.6 mile tourist tramline was rebuilt along the waterfront. A suitable period vintage tram couldn't be located in the US so they imported a 1920's class tram from Melbourne.

At least in Ireland wouldn't have to stoop to this low as we have some of our own surviving trams if we ever decided to rebuild a stretch of track.

People want to see and experience these vehicles in motion, thats why citys that still use vintage trams are always popular.

I was in Melbournre in 1990, back then the city was a mecca for old W class trams, unfortunitally now most of them have been replaced with modern trams but at least none of the 200 remaining have been destroyed and about a dozen will be still used on tourist routes. http://www.theage.com.au/national/wclass-trams-trundling-into-history-20090817-enp4.html

Anyone interested in Trams should watch Malcom, set in the late 80ies.

pad180

sorry for butting in . but is there any fotage of the tram in dalkey i think it was the number 8 tram . i find the fotage of howth very interesting thanks

Cookie_Monster

yeah it was (at least) the 8. The depot is still there, as is some of the track

steamengine

Judgement Day wrote: »

And here is Hill of Howth tram #2 at Orange Empire Railway Museum
(Southern California's Railway Museum) at Perris, California, USA
http://www.oerm.org. We are a great country for disposing of our heritage - out of sight out of mind. :rolleyes:



PS There are lashing of Orange Empire Railway Museum videos on You Tube, and I'm sure No.2. is on one of them but my enthusiasm isn't what it once was - perhaps somebody else will post a link if they have the stamina to watch hours of 'foreign' stuff?

'We are a great country for disposing of our heritage - out of sight out of mind.' :rolleyes:

- Oh Mr Porter, you are right there -

Great photo, just as I remember them, but the trams location prompted the thought 'Maybe I should keep a bucket beside my computer' :mad: The museum is not to blame though !!!

Run_to_da_hills

steamengine wrote: »

- Oh Mr Porter, you are right there -

Speaking of, no doubt that this would have found its way up the Howth summet at some time.

Judgement Day

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Speaking of, no doubt that this would have found its way up the Howth summet at some time.



Doubt it somehow as this was the directors tram of the Dublin & United Tramways Company and the Hill of Howth Tramway belonged to the Great Northern Railway. Still perhaps they got special permission and went over for a picnic. The late Horace Porter (an FG supporter) really lavished care and attention on the tram as it lay in the middle of his piggery in Dalkey for several decades. :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

steamengine wrote: »

'We are a great country for disposing of our heritage - out of sight out of mind.' :rolleyes:

- Oh Mr Porter, you are right there -

Not always true.

Check out this thread

100 102 years and still in use

Blade

When they were digging up Harbour Rd. (one of the many many times), they uncovered the old Tram tracks, a friend of mine got a piece of it from the workmen. It's still exposed in certain other areas going up the hill but I believe theres too much in the way now to be able to re-open the route. Even a short run from West to East pier would be great for Howth and would be in every businesses interest to help out financially.

Heres a Facebook page that should interest you, particularly the Tram and Train's albums: http://www.facebook.com/oldhowth

Judgement Day

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Not always true.

Check out this thread

100 102 years and still in use

Cookie Monster - had a look at that thread and am not 100% convinced that it is correct. Even if it is, it is a bit like Grandad's axe - new frames, new wheels and new body. In my GSRPS days we had what I think was the last surviving GS&WR plough van in original condition (rescued for us from Lisduff quarry by the ESB in 1986) and eventually scrapped by CIE/IE at Mallow.

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

Cookie Monster - had a look at that thread and am not 100% convinced that it is correct. Even if it is, it is a bit like Grandad's axe - new frames, new wheels and new body. In my GSRPS days we had what I think was the last surviving GS&WR plough van in original condition (rescued for us from Lisduff quarry by the ESB in 1986) and eventually scrapped by CIE/IE at Mallow.

I dunno tbh, it may or may not be
A lot of the boys on that site are pretty knowledgeable and many work for IE. either way its an old piece of kit. Soon to be gone though with the arrival of the Auto-Ballasters

A bit like my old trusty broom. Lasted 25 years it has, 16 new handles and 12 new brush heads, but still as good as it ever was :pac:

Blade

@steamengine: Yeh, I have a map here of the entire network. I have old tickets too, ones from Dublin (nelson's pillar) to hill of Howth and GNR etc.

steamengine

Blade wrote: »

When they were digging up Harbour Rd. (one of the many many times), they uncovered the old Tram tracks, a friend of mine got a piece of it from the workmen. It's still exposed in certain other areas going up the hill but I believe theres too much in the way now to be able to re-open the route. Even a short run from West to East pier would be great for Howth and would be in every businesses interest to help out financially.

Heres a Facebook page that should interest you, particularly the Tram and Train's albums: http://www.facebook.com/oldhowth

More than likely these are the old Dublin United Tramway Company tracks, who ran a tram service from the City centre to Howth. Apparently the GNR set up their own service around the Hill to boost their train service which was losing business to DUTC. The GNR sold combined train and tram tickets to encourage business and in addition their ride was much more scenic.

The GNR tracks crossed over Harbour Road by a bridge, and the alignment can be seen clearly on Google Maps. So in addition to West East Pier idea, the old alignment from Howth to the Summit would also present itself as a possibility. The view of Howth village, harbour and Ireland's Eye from an open top tram heading for the Summit is second to none and it would be great to see this project take off, if not for my generation then surely the next.

ForiegnNational

What would it take, legislatively to change the law regarding the re-use of abandoned / disused track bed, so that CIE / Councils could sell to people other than the original land-owners (or presumably the person currently owning the adjoining land as over a hundred year has passed in many of these cases)?

The reason I am asking is that tracks like the Howth Hill, or many of the old branch lines axed in the 1960's/70's are ripe for development by volunteer groups.

If you look over at our neighbours in Wales or England, there are multiple active volunteer groups redeveloping tramways (Crich, Seaton, Great Orm, etc) and steam railways (Welsh Highland Railway, Lynton & Barnstable, etc, etc, etc), here we have the quaint, but lonely, Waterford & Suir Valley Railway as the only active group redeveloping lines, rather than specialising in preserving rolling stock.

Judgement Day

ForiegnNational wrote: »

What would it take, legislatively to change the law regarding the re-use of abandoned / disused track bed, so that CIE / Councils could sell to people other than the original land-owners (or presumably the person currently owning the adjoining land as over a hundred year has passed in many of these cases)?

The reason I am asking is that tracks like the Howth Hill, or many of the old branch lines axed in the 1960's/70's are ripe for development by volunteer groups.

If you look over at our neighbours in Wales or England, there are multiple active volunteer groups redeveloping tramways (Crich, Seaton, Great Orm, etc) and steam railways (Welsh Highland Railway, Lynton & Barnstable, etc, etc, etc), here we have the quaint, but lonely, Waterford & Suir Valley Railway as the only active group redeveloping lines, rather than specialising in preserving rolling stock.

Sadly this is something of a red herring as there is no line of preservation societies here waiting for a stretch of railway to become available. This is not Britain, and we don't have the population to produce the number of enthusiasts/volunteers that would be needed to support a preserved line in the Republic. Add that to the almost total lack of suitable railway equipment and you arrive at our present situation. Indeed, railway preservation does not appear to be a Celtic pursuit and even in Wales the driving forces behind the many steam lines there tend to be English.

Run_to_da_hills

ForiegnNational wrote: »

What would it take, legislatively to change the law regarding the re-use of abandoned / disused track bed, so that CIE / Councils could sell to people other than the original land-owners (or presumably the person currently owning the adjoining land as over a hundred year has passed in many of these cases)?

The reason I am asking is that tracks like the Howth Hill, or many of the old branch lines axed in the 1960's/70's are ripe for development by volunteer groups.

If you look over at our neighbours in Wales or England, there are multiple active volunteer groups redeveloping tramways (Crich, Seaton, Great Orm, etc) and steam railways (Welsh Highland Railway, Lynton & Barnstable, etc, etc, etc), here we have the quaint, but lonely, Waterford & Suir Valley Railway as the only active group redeveloping lines, rather than specialising in preserving rolling stock.

A lot of heratige groupes could not afford the insurance on a stretch of track if it were handed over, particularly if it contained bridge or viaduct structures. there is also the maintenance aspect. Insurance companies would expect the lines to be up to scratch before they cover them.

Cookie_Monster

Insurance is the main reason many many things don't happen here. I was at Bushmills recently. Working distillery, open to visitor to walk through on a tour. Guide was pointing out how they could never do it in ROI with the massive public liability premiums charged here.

Thats also one of the major reasons why no working heritage railways here (one among many)