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Prime Time Crimes Against Children & Child Porn

  • 31-05-2010 10:37PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭


    Very interesting Prime Time Investigates tonight, and not at all pulling many punches - I found myself and my other half were both equally shocked and outraged.

    The fact that in a short period of time they tracked over a thousand people on P2P networks looking for child porn in Ireland - which likely means there are a lot more who are smarter in the relatively simple ways to cover your tracks - is amazing.

    The fact that we have people verifiably producing child porn in Ireland is another thing I think might have been underplayed - especially given that in Ireland we are dealing with a fairly horrible child abuse legacy from the past, why aren't we doing more in the here and the now?

    I think that the sex abuse crimes against children is largely ignored because we don't have the stomach to hear about it - I know I'm shaking a bit after some of what I saw and heard on PT tonight.

    Interesting also to see the teenagers and their habits online - I notice that Komplett.ie was on the screen in the school, what do they have to do with CP I wonder?

    I wonder if our politicos will be moved off their arses by this? (As opposed to being moved by, err, a problem existing, as opposed to a problem existing where we get an hour long TV program to tell us about it.)

    They figure that 20% of the porn out there is child porn.


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Some people are still really stupid.
    There are so many things that are traceable known ways by specialists, to do it - yes, even thru some proxies too!

    Long story short, if your into that perverted stuff, ye deserve to be caught.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,830 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The shocking thing is op there could be people you and your partner interact with on daily basis, who you deem to be salt of the earth folk, that go home at night and look up this stuff while their wife and children are asleep.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    People are sooooo naive about the Internet. You're effectively sending your phone number with every packet you download... your IP will be logged by the ISP, whether telephone number/ SIM number on mobile bband etc etc.. The only thing that they have problem proving is who is using the computer behind the IP.

    I'd say there were a lot of people getting very anxious as the towns were being named out on the show tonight. :p


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ...I'd say there were a lot of people getting very anxious as the towns were being named out on the show tonight.
    ...and rightly so.

    What ever happened to our infamous judge that dodgy stuff was found on his machine!
    Is he still about/alive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    he retired !!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...and rightly so.

    What ever happened to our infamous judge that dodgy stuff was found on his machine!
    Is he still about/alive?

    Oh yeah. That whole thing was a farce.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...and rightly so.
    What ever happened to our infamous judge that dodgy stuff was found on his machine!Is he still about/alive?

    Got off on a technicality, search warrant expired..
    Brian Curtin
    In November 2006, Judge Curtin resigned from the judiciary on health grounds, ending the investigation. This occurred days before he was to give evidence in private to the committee, and days after he had completed five years on the bench, the minimum sufficient to qualify for a pension.
    Still sucking on the teats of Mother Ireland no doubt, like a good public servant. What a stupid country we live in..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭sheesh


    People are sooooo naive about the Internet. You're effectively sending your phone number with every packet you download... your IP will be logged by the ISP, whether telephone number/ SIM number on mobile bband etc etc.. The only thing that they have problem proving is who is using the computer behind the IP.

    I'd say there were a lot of people getting very anxious as the towns were being named out on the show tonight. :p

    yeah that is what i was thinking I would say there is a load of reformatting of hard drives going on after that program.

    fairly rough viewing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    sheesh wrote: »
    yeah that is what i was thinking I would say there is a load of reformatting of hard drives going on after that program.

    fairly rough viewing
    I was laughing thinking of the sicko's who must have been bricking it. Though considering that many of them are married middle class men, I wonder if their wives noticed them getting edgy?

    I also wonder if the Gardai will swoop?

    Their statement didn't sound very convincing - 1 officer trained on such software, and I daresay that the company involved will be receiving their first serious communication from AGS in the near future.

    Not the Gardai's fault of course, they work with what they're given by the government. And as the UK and US police said, this has been a problem that is increasing in size hugely over the past decade... I wonder if police resources in the area have increased at the same rate?

    Another reactionary, back-foot response from our government will be required, I think. Perhaps the Department of Justice was too busy drafting blasphemy laws to take a look...

    Edit: Another point to make about the rough watching... Firstly, there was no actual child porn there, so I can only imagine how rough this stuff is. Secondly, we can switch off the TV. The kids can't. I think we owe it to them to do something about this, uncomfortable as it is, uncomfortable as challenging priests over sex abuse was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The only thing which I "like" about the web in this regard is that it has exposed a lot more of these people than was ever previously possible. At the same time, it might also have created a lot more of an appetite than there had been previously.

    There was a lot of talk of legislating in regards to the web, but the problem is that there is a world of a gap between what legislators talk about and the technical realities of the situation.

    Every suggestion that was made on the program in terms of blocking, banning, etc, etc, I just responded, "Pointless".
    The internet as a medium does not respond to censorship very well and any attempt to do so will fail. What we should be doing is harnessing the openness of the web to track down these people and their "consumers".

    There are a number of problems with child porn; firstly it needs to be categorised.

    There is a world of difference between porn involving someone who is clearly a child and "lolita" porn which involves women/men who are not entirely sexually mature, but have developed to a point where they are clearly male or female and clearly no longer children.

    I imagine the consumers of this kind of stuff feel some kind of disconnect from the images - it's escapism pure and simple for them and they may even justify it to themselves by saying that they are over-age women dressed up to look young (which may also be true). It can also be a sort of "time-travel" fantasising where they imagine themselves as a gawky teenage boy having scored with these young women. There's also the issue that the images cross jurisdictions - the images may have been entirely legal in the jurisdiction in which they were taken.

    Child porn is something else entirely. Children are children and we don't ordinarily associate sexual thoughts with children - because we didn't have sexual thoughts ourselves as children.

    So it's a much tougher issue than simply "Underage people == bad" and any response needs to recognise this and treat it accordingly.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Komplett: Aaron


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Interesting also to see the teenagers and their habits online - I notice that Komplett.ie was on the screen in the school, what do they have to do with CP I wonder?

    In relation to Komplett, the logo appeared in a segment where Transition Year Students were being given a talk on "Teen Safe Computing" by Pat McKenna of ChildWatch, who were also technical advisors on the show and were behind a Barnardos report on the same topic last year.

    We've been sponsoring ChildWatchand Teen Safe Computing in going out to secondary schools to give this presentation since last year.

    What started out as a pilot program to TYP's only ballooned when teachers and parents, as well as the kids themselves, took to it very well, and we now go out to give presentations to all years of secondary school. (Different presentations to 1st years vs 6th years, naturally.)

    It's a program we're actively looking to expand into next year. We hit 40% of the schools in Dublin this school year, and we'd like to find ways to bring it to a wider school audience, and we're also bringing it directly to parents and teachers in afterschool programs.

    Edit: And if I could proffer a legal opinion Seamus... Any pornographic material of a child under the age at which we consider them an adult is illegal. There is no gray area to that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Edit: And if I could proffer a legal opinion Seamus... Any pornographic material of a child under the age at which we consider them an adult is illegal. There is no gray area to that.
    No argument here. And I'm not saying that we should turn a blind eye to it or make it a slap-on-the-wrists offence.
    However, we do need to recognise that there are so many differences between child porn and "teenager" porn that they should be considered as separate offences rather than a blanket "child porn" declaration as we do now.

    My primary concern is about teenagers themselves. Teenage boys in the UK have been convicted with "child porn" offences for having explicit images of female peers on their phones. It's so wrong to criminalise the sexual interests of teenagers in other teenagers and you risk ruining someone's life for nothing more than being a teenager.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Komplett: Aaron


    seamus wrote: »
    No argument here. And I'm not saying that we should turn a blind eye to it or make it a slap-on-the-wrists offence.
    However, we do need to recognise that there are so many differences between child porn and "teenager" porn that they should be considered as separate offences rather than a blanket "child porn" declaration as we do now.

    My primary concern is about teenagers themselves. Teenage boys in the UK have been convicted with "child porn" offences for having explicit images of female peers on their phones. It's so wrong to criminalise the sexual interests of teenagers in other teenagers and you risk ruining someone's life for nothing more than being a teenager.
    I'm outside of my writ to be posting repeatedly in Politics, so I'll keep this brief as we have a declared interest in the subject.

    Teen on Teen interaction is fine so long as everyone is under the age of adulthood. The issue with "sexting" is that after relationships break up, these images can be distributed - and are, we've seen it in many schools - and used as part of bullying and coercion.

    Anyone distributing these images, for example to brag to mates, is committing a crime under child pornography legislation. This is an aside to the damage that cyber bullying causes. The best practice advice to teenagers when thinking of filming themselves is, don't. A digital image is very difficult to control.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    That's all well and good for the "official line" Aaron, but it doesn't do much to address the realities of the situation.

    I do however understand that your hands are tied in terms of diverting from discussing anything but the current legal situation and best-practice advice and to do so would be contrary to what Komplett are doing in their very laudable support of these programs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Komplett: Aaron


    Best thing for me to do here would be to drag in ChildWatch, they're far more expert than I in these discussions, and I know Pat likes to thrash through discussions on the topic... There are always gray areas where it comes to teens, but I suppose it's worth noting that the vast vast majority of stuff these guys deal in is serious crimes against children, and in the schools there'd be a lot of cyber bullying as well that comes back to and is interrelated to it all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭pooch90


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Very interesting Prime Time Investigates tonight, and not at all pulling many punches - I found myself and my other half were both equally shocked and outraged.

    The fact that in a short period of time they tracked over a thousand people on P2P networks looking for child porn in Ireland - which likely means there are a lot more who are smarter in the relatively simple ways to cover your tracks - is amazing.

    The fact that we have people verifiably producing child porn in Ireland is another thing I think might have been underplayed - especially given that in Ireland we are dealing with a fairly horrible child abuse legacy from the past, why aren't we doing more in the here and the now?

    I think that the sex abuse crimes against children is largely ignored because we don't have the stomach to hear about it - I know I'm shaking a bit after some of what I saw and heard on PT tonight.

    Interesting also to see the teenagers and their habits online - I notice that Komplett.ie was on the screen in the school, what do they have to do with CP I wonder?

    I wonder if our politicos will be moved off their arses by this? (As opposed to being moved by, err, a problem existing, as opposed to a problem existing where we get an hour long TV program to tell us about it.)

    They figure that 20% of the porn out there is child porn.
    Just to point out - a thousand Ip addresses is meaningless. They could be anything from the actual culprits hacking one or more wireless networks (was that mentioned?) and it could be people downloading mislabeled files.

    Remember, they don't even have to finish downloading as this is simply a list of trackers.

    Don't expect primetime and RTE to ever portray filesharing in a good light as they are direct competitors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,830 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    pooch90 wrote: »
    Just to point out - a thousand Ip addresses is meaningless. They could be anything from the actual culprits hacking one or more wireless networks (was that mentioned?) and it could be people downloading mislabeled files.

    Remember, they don't even have to finish downloading as this is simply a list of trackers.

    Don't expect primetime and RTE to ever portray filesharing in a good light as they are direct competitors.

    yes it was just another attempt to demean filesharing rather than shed light on this type of crime.

    although, you do have a point it is possible some of these people were not doing anything wrong.

    it's possible to download such files without the person's awareness

    i recall a court case where a man was cleared of downloading child porn because a single file was in his internet temporary folder. he claimed he didn't knowingly download the file. an IT expert agreed it was possible.

    anyway as someone said there will be a lot of reformatting of drives after that programme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    It's not that hard to crack WEP/WPA encryption as used by most wireless modems. That means I could use your internet connection to look at child porn. You would get blamed.

    Scary...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    pooch90 wrote: »
    Just to point out - a thousand Ip addresses is meaningless. They could be anything from the actual culprits hacking one or more wireless networks (was that mentioned?) and it could be people downloading mislabeled files.
    I think to be fair to PrimeTime, they did show the types of searches that people were putting in and a pattern of the same IP address seeking this sort of information on multiple (sometimes hundreds) of isolated occasions. I think this demonstrates the intention of the people to request this sort of information more so than simply clicking on a link by accident.

    Though I do agree with you that it is hard to 100% link the person to the IP address. I think the only reason that they caught Judge Curtin was the fact that he used his credit card. They would have got a conviction if they hadnt messed up the search warrant.. (What a stupid law btw, the fact that they found illegal property should completely negate the necessity for the warrant).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭pooch90



    Though I do agree with you that it is hard to 100% link the person to the IP address. I think the only reason that they caught Judge Curtin was the fact that he used his credit card. They would have got a conviction if they hadnt messed up the search warrant.. (What a stupid law btw, the fact that they found illegal property should completely negate the necessity for the warrant).
    In fairness to the judge - if a 3rd party had access to his wireless network, they may have also had access to his cc statement meaning there is no guarantee he is guilty. In fact, he'd have to be absolutely thick to be guilty.

    How do you defend that sort of evidence when both security systems are easily breached?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    It reminds me of yer man who was convicted of murder because his mobile phone was giving off a signal in the area.

    Let's say I wanted to kill my neighbours daughter.

    I hack his internet connection and look and child porn to make it seem like he is a pervert. I also google "how to dispose of body" and "how to kill someone" using his internet connection.

    I borrow his mobile phone and clone his sim card. (Very easy).

    I then wait until I know he is alone or whatever I consider to be the right moment, kidnap his daughter, put his cloned sim in a phone, kill her and dispose of her body.

    He will get blamed as the evidence is overwhelming -

    His ISP records show he is a pervert
    His ISP records show he was googling how to kill someone
    His mobile phone was transmitting where the body was dumped

    As a techie I understand how easy it is to fake the evidence, but do you think the average jury would agree with me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 104 ✭✭dowtcha


    AARRRGH wrote: »
    It reminds me of yer man who was convicted of murder because his mobile phone was giving off a signal in the area.

    Let's say I wanted to kill my neighbours daughter.

    I hack his internet connection and look and child porn to make it seem like he is a pervert. I also google "how to dispose of body" and "how to kill someone" using his internet connection.

    I borrow his mobile phone and clone his sim card. (Very easy).

    I then wait until I know he is alone or whatever I consider to be the right moment, kidnap his daughter, put his cloned sim in a phone, kill her and dispose of her body.

    He will get blamed as the evidence is overwhelming -

    His ISP records show he is a pervert
    His ISP records show he was googling how to kill someone
    His mobile phone was transmitting where the body was dumped

    As a techie I understand how easy it is to fake the evidence, but do you think the average jury would agree with me?

    As a complete middleaged utterly non techie riddle me this - what do you think of Fergus Finley's point - once there is a few schekels at play then this P2P or whatever can easily be targetted/tackled by eircom, move onto distribution of defenceless child abuse images then things suddenly get very "gray"???? Frankly, I don't think so??? - I'm 110% with FF on this. What does this say about this country? - tiptoeing around child porn vs hammering music downloading - I don't buy all this tech geek speak, where there's a will there's a way!!!
    Is this country slowly dissapearing up it's own rear end, 230 times accessing this material in 30 days wtf??? If anyone's interested to see where all this is leading, then get your hands on the mag from last Sunday Times about child abuse in South Africa, seriously sad state of affairs, seems to be straight onto the contact crime, forget the P2P
    Lastly, again more mixed messages, why is it that we don't just block these sites like they do in UK? again speaking as a non techie
    Perhaps I am sounding a wee bit self righteous here, however as and always seems to be the case these days, of course men have to be at the root of all this activity, and being of that gender myself, give a dog a bad name etc. Don't get me wrong though, am all in favour of light being shone into the dark recesses of what remains of Irish society


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    dowtcha wrote: »
    As a complete middleaged utterly non techie riddle me this - what do you think of Fergus Finley's point - once there is a few schekels at play then this P2P or whatever can easily be targetted/tackled by eircom, move onto distribution of defenceless child abuse images then things suddenly get very "gray"???? Frankly, I don't think so??? - I'm 110% with FF on this. What does this say about this country? - tiptoeing around child porn vs hammering music downloading - I don't buy all this tech geek speak, where there's a will there's a way!!!
    Is this country slowly dissapearing up it's own rear end, 230 times accessing this material in 30 days wtf??? If anyone's interested to see where all this is leading, then get your hands on the mag from last Sunday Times about child abuse in South Africa, seriously sad state of affairs, seems to be straight onto the contact crime, forget the P2P
    Lastly again more mixed messages why is it that we don't just block these sites like they do in UK? again speaking as a non techie

    If child abuse was legal and some company was losing money because perverts are using P2P to trade it freely, I have no doubt it would be tackled a lot harder than it is now.

    It absolutely baffles me that there aren't more convictions. There is no way every pervert has the technical skills to spoof their IP and remain anonymous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 104 ✭✭dowtcha


    AARRRGH wrote: »
    It reminds me of yer man who was convicted of murder because his mobile phone was giving off a signal in the area.

    Let's say I wanted to kill my neighbours daughter.

    I hack his internet connection and look and child porn to make it seem like he is a pervert. I also google "how to dispose of body" and "how to kill someone" using his internet connection.

    I borrow his mobile phone and clone his sim card. (Very easy).

    I then wait until I know he is alone or whatever I consider to be the right moment, kidnap his daughter, put his cloned sim in a phone, kill her and dispose of her body.

    He will get blamed as the evidence is overwhelming -

    His ISP records show he is a pervert
    His ISP records show he was googling how to kill someone
    His mobile phone was transmitting where the body was dumped

    As a techie I understand how easy it is to fake the evidence, but do you think the average jury would agree with me?

    As a complete middleaged utterly non techie riddle me this - what do you think of Fergus Finley's point - once there is a few schekels at play then this P2P or whatever can easily be targetted/tackled by eircom, move onto distribution of defenceless child abuse images then things suddenly get very "gray"???? Frankly, I don't think so??? - I'm 110% with FF on this. What does this say about this country? - tiptoeing around child porn vs hammering music downloading - I don't buy all this tech geek speak, where there's a will there's a way!!!
    Is this country slowly dissapearing up it's own rear end, 230 times accessing this material in 30 days wtf??? If anyone's interested to see where all this is leading, then get your hands on the mag from last Sunday Times about child abuse in South Africa, seriously sad state of affairs, seems to be straight onto the contact crime, forget the P2P
    Lastly again more mixed messages why is it that we don't just block these sites like they do in UK? again speaking as a non techie


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    What I'd like to know is, if we can trace IP address this accurately why are we threaetning poeple with downloading illegal music more resoultley than downloading child porn?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Because selling music is legal, and illegal downloads means lost sales (allegedly) and hence lost money. The same is not true of child porn. No one (legal businesses anyhow) loses money, so the interest in preventing it isnt the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭pooch90


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    What I'd like to know is, if we can trace IP address this accurately why are we threaetning poeple with downloading illegal music more resoultley than downloading child porn?
    Because somebody with pockets full of money would prefer that peer to peer networks didn't exist. Distribution networks used to cost millions to establish and maintain - now they're free!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,194 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    People are sooooo naive about the Internet. You're effectively sending your phone number with every packet you download... your IP will be logged by the ISP, whether telephone number/ SIM number on mobile bband etc etc.. The only thing that they have problem proving is who is using the computer behind the IP.

    I'd say there were a lot of people getting very anxious as the towns were being named out on the show tonight. :p

    I was thinking about this myself and thought that these sickos really are taking such a risk.
    But, I guess the overwhelming urge and desire is what makes them take this risk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 104 ✭✭dowtcha


    walshb wrote: »
    I was thinking about this myself and thought that these sickos really are taking such a risk.
    But, I guess the overwhelming urge and desire is what makes them take this risk.
    Allied to the fact that fanny adams appears to being done about it - much was promised but little was delivered... a familiar thread in this country


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    walshb wrote: »
    I was thinking about this myself and thought that these sickos really are taking such a risk.
    But, I guess the overwhelming urge and desire is what makes them take this risk.

    This is it. I've always seen child porn as more of an addiciton than a fetish. Someone who signs up for a child porn site using their credit card know that it's going to end badly, but for whatever reason just can't stop.
    pooch90 wrote: »
    Because somebody with pockets full of money would prefer that peer to peer networks didn't exist. Distribution networks used to cost millions to establish and maintain - now they're free!!

    Yeah, I know, but why isn't their legislation to help guards do the same thing? I'm not saying it's the duty of the phone cmpanies or the network providers, so at least they can be caught before they do something more serious.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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