A Tea Party movement for Ireland?

Permabear

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karma_

I think we have enough ideologues in the country as it is.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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[/QUOTE] Why do we deserve better? It's not like we ended up in our current situation by accident. I know it's been said countless times before, but when the good times were rolling, people were more than happy to mortgage themselves up to their eyeballs, scoff at the financially prudent who chose not to climb on the mythical 'ladder' (or anyone who suggested investing in anything other than property, like, I dunno, indigenous industry maybe?), take in a city break every second weekend and re-elect Fianna Fail indefinitely. Then everything went tits up and everyone's looking for someone to blame other than themselves.

We got exactly what we deserve.

dlofnep

Ah yes, just what Ireland needs. A group of racist, hyperbolic lunatics running around the place arbitrarily calling people socialists and commies.

MysticalRain

I think we have enough crazy left-wingers in this country as it is. The last thing we want in this country is an opposing brigade of crazy right wing nutjobs. The teabagger of movement is little more than the American equivalent of the BNP.

Despite what the right-wing ideologues claim, our current predicament is not quite as simple as "big government is the problem". It's easy to blame the government in the abstract. But it's the people who are ultimately at fault. We didn't have to take out 100% mortgages, purchase overpriced SUVs, or keep those incompetent idiots in FF power through three successive elections.

Taxipete29

We already had one of these movements. It started in the mid 80s. This mad fella from Limerick called Dessie took on the establishment. Then as soon as he was given some power he used it to jump back into bed with his former allies.

Good man Dessie, way to stick it to them.

If people want change they have to be willing to change themselves.

Valmont

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, just what Ireland needs. A group of racist, hyperbolic lunatics running around the place arbitrarily calling people socialists and commies.

I find it very ironic that you call them racist lunatics and then use the word hyperbolic in the same sentence. Although, from your point of view, I understand that any sort of tea party movement is anathema to the Sinn Fein master plan.

If anything, having even a single voice calling for fiscal restraint and sanity would be a good thing for Ireland. As it stands, even the very idea of a significantly smaller (not non-existent) government is far beyond the country's comprehension. I can't see anything wrong with trying to even open the debate on such matters. Something is going to have to change sooner later.

Valmont

MysticalRain wrote: »

The last thing we want in this country is an opposing brigade of crazy right wing nutjobs. The teabagger of movement is little more than the American equivalent of the BNP.

karma_ wrote: »

I think we have enough ideologues in the country as it is.

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, just what Ireland needs. A group of racist, hyperbolic lunatics running around the place arbitrarily calling people socialists and commies.

I used these quotes to illustrate that here in Ireland, very few are even willing to actually find out the principles behind the tea party movement and to constructively engage these points in a debate. It isn't even possible, we are absolutely blinkered into wanting an even bigger government to fix all of our problems.

silverharp

to paraphrase the Dev line in the Michael Collins movie


"Donegalfella...
"we must act...
"as if Freedom...
"is...
"a fact.
"We defeat...
"Statism...
"by...
"ignoring it".



But seriously, there is no history here of principled movements. Once the Brits left that was it from a phisosophical standpoint. Irish people will muddle through and will hope the EU or the IMF will bailout them out if "that shower in the Dail mess up"

If you do see anything it will be "PAYE marches" if taxes go back to 80's levels. But again this would be just another "not us" lobby who would be taking turns on alternate Saturdays with pensioners, farmers and the PS unions.

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, just what Ireland needs. A group of racist, hyperbolic lunatics running around the place arbitrarily calling people socialists and commies.

well they could go around murdering Gardai
oh wait nvm :rolleyes:



anyways, imho Ireland doesnt need Tea Parties or likes of Sarah Palin
but we do need to have a national debate on the economy and more importantly people need to understand how screwed the country is there seems to be some sort of collective delusion denial? (sound familiar?) about the state of things
oh and our unemployment is larger than US and our debt (per head of population) makes US look like a well run country

djpbarry wrote: »

We got exactly what we deserve.

im starting to agree with that sentiment

the problem now are various interest groups trying socialize their problems onto society and taxpayer

kev9100

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, just what Ireland needs. A group of racist, hyperbolic lunatics running around the place arbitrarily calling people socialists and commies.

Yep. The guy in this photo is exactly what Ireland needs..... not.

MysticalRain

Valmont wrote: »

I used these quotes to illustrate that here in Ireland, very few are even willing to actually find out the principles behind the tea party movement and to constructively engage these points in a debate. It isn't even possible, we are absolutely blinkered into wanting an even bigger government to fix all of our problems.

On the contrary, I waste far too much time paying attention to the highly compelling freak show that is American politics these days, tea baggers included. You only have listen to these idiot's own words to form the view that they are a bunch of nutjobs whose motivations are hardly pure.

And before you accuse me of being some left-wing ideologue, I think there are plenty of nut jobs on the left too and I'm okay with the idea of the current government cutting back on spending. And no, I don't "expect the government to solve all my problems" either.

dlofnep

Valmont wrote: »

I find it very ironic that you call them racist lunatics and then use the word hyperbolic in the same sentence. Although, from your point of view, I understand that any sort of tea party movement is anathema to the Sinn Fein master plan.

You're going to have to explain why it's ironic. I'll await your response.

Valmont

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yet every day we are told that the recession was caused by the unregulated free market

Blinkered.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sinn Féin: 10% in latest poll in the south. Currently the largest party in the north.

Non-existent Libertarian Party: 0% (Infact, is there even a Libertarian party in Europe that has any success?)

So yes, Sinn Féin's politics are quite clearly preferred to the nonsensical Libertarian utopia that you dream of. This is Ireland. Not the United States of Capitalism. Libertarianism will never work. The Tea Party followers are a bunch of inept idiots.

Lockstep

Meh, I have to agree with Dlofnep here.

At the end of the day, I disagree with libertarianism from it's fundamentals. As such, I cannot support a Tea Party style movement.

The best way I can describe is to quote Robert Locke

And is society really wrong to protect people against the negative consequences of some of their free choices? While it is obviously fair to let people enjoy the benefits of their wise choices and suffer the costs of their stupid ones, decent societies set limits on both these outcomes. People are allowed to become millionaires, but they are taxed. They are allowed to go broke, but they are not then forced to starve. They are deprived of the most extreme benefits of freedom in order to spare us the most extreme costs. The libertopian alternative would be perhaps a more glittering society, but also a crueler one.

Empirically, most people don’t actually want absolute freedom, which is why democracies don’t elect libertarian governments. Irony of ironies, people don’t choose absolute freedom. But this refutes libertarianism by its own premise, as libertarianism defines the good as the freely chosen, yet people do not choose it. Paradoxically, people exercise their freedom not to be libertarians.

[url][/url]

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin: 10% in latest poll in the south. Currently the largest party in the north.

Non-existent Libertarian Party: 0% (Infact, is there even a Libertarian party in Europe that has any success?)

So yes, Sinn Féin's politics are quite clearly preferred to the nonsensical Libertarian utopia that you dream of. This is Ireland. Not the United States of Capitalism. Libertarianism will never work. The Tea Party followers are a bunch of inept idiots.

Is this the same Sinn Féin that currently holds 2.4% of the seats in Leinster House? Not as popular as we think they are, are they?

Also it should be noted that a Libertarian party, the Progressive Democrats have been in government in the last fifty years. When was Sinn Féin last in government?

dlofnep wrote: »

The Tea Party followers are a bunch of inept idiots.

I found the ironing on this delicious coming form a proud nationalist and Sinn Féin supporter.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is this the same Sinn Féin that currently holds 2.4% of the seats in Leinster House? Not as popular as we think they are, are they?

Sinn Féin may only hold 4 seats in the Dáil, but it's 143,410 more votes than a Libertarian party has.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Also it should be noted that a Libertarian party, the progressive democrats have been in government in the last fifty years. When was Sinn féin last in government?

And where is the Progressive Democrats now? Dead and buried. They weren't a real Libertarian party anyway.

Sinn Féin was the first Government of Ireland, and have been around since the beginning of Irish politics. They aren't a here today, gone tomorrow populist party. They may not have held a position of power since dropping their Abstentionist policy, but they have a decent base in a competitive environment - where Fianna Fáil and Labour receive alot of working class votes.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin may only hold 4 seats in the Dáil, but it's 143,410 more votes than a Libertarian party has.

True, but Fine Geal, a more right wing party holds 30% of the seats. So it is not correct to say there is no appetite for right wing policies.

dlofnep wrote: »

And where is the Progressive Democrats now? Dead and buried. They weren't a real Libertarian party anyway.

Yes they were, they just couldn't implement what they wanted to because they were tied to Finne Fail.

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin was the first Government of Ireland, and have been around since the beginning of Irish politics. They aren't a here today, gone tomorrow populist party. They may not have held a position of power since dropping their Abstentionist policy, but they have a decent base in a competitive environment - where Fianna Fáil and Labour receive alot of working class votes, due to their supporting a welfare state.

Sinn Féin are a social democratic party. They do support the welfare state. Also Sinn Feins main support comes from working class areas such as the Falls Road.

Eliot Rosewater

I think this thread illustrates a key problem with the tea party movement: their public image is, quite simply, atrocious. While I agree with their small-government beliefs, I feel that holding placards such as "Obama is a socialist" and "President Obama, Show Us Your Birth Certificate" is counter-productive and only alienates people from one's protest.


I think there is an appetite for a smaller government movement, not necessarily libertarian by any means, but rather a broad coming together of liberals who believe that the rights and responsibilities of individuals should take precedence in both the economic and social spheres. As Df mentioned, the prospect of a "levy is a spending cut" Labour government doesn't exactly make one anxious for Fianna Fail to go.

djpbarry wrote: »

We got exactly what we deserve.

While I agree with the general sentiment, the problem with that statement is the "we". I would disagree with lumping 5 million people into one group! The responsible few shouldn't be punished by the poor voting strategies of the majority.

dlofnep wrote: »

So yes, Sinn Féin's politics are quite clearly preferred to the nonsensical Libertarian utopia that you dream of.

I wouldn't put much stock in public opinion. As we've seen in Ireland and in Greece, the electorate don't vote with economic reality in mind. They're happy to vote for whatever party offers them the greatest number of "freebies". Sinn Fein voters might be pleased if they got all the government spending schemes they demand; they won't be as happy when the cost of said spending schemes forces the government to raise taxes and, ultimately, hurt job creation.

But at that juncture I have absolutely no doubt that people would, once again, blame free enterprise for the loss in jobs. After all, the free market is everyone's favorite scapegoat.

Valmont

dlofnep wrote: »

So yes, Sinn Féin's politics are quite clearly preferred to the nonsensical Libertarian utopia that you dream of. This is Ireland. Not the United States of Capitalism. Libertarianism will never work. The Tea Party followers are a bunch of inept idiots.

I'm not dreaming of a libertarian utopia; I'm dreaming of the books being balanced and Sinn Fein will definitely not be bringing that to the table.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

True, but Fine Geal, a more right wing party holds 30% of the seats. So it is not correct to say there is no appetite for right wing policies.

I never said there wasn't some appetitive for right wing politics. Right wing politics is often appealing to those with wealth.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sinn Féin are a social democratic party. They do support the welfare state. Also Sinn Feins main support comes from working class areas such as the Falls Road.

I never said that they didn't support it. My point was that, many policies of SF/Labour and FF overlap. Obviously, many others don't. But it does affect votes. And yes - Sinn Féin's main vote does come from working class areas - which is a testament to their work on behalf of working class families.

dlofnep

Valmont wrote: »

I'm not dreaming of a libertarian utopia; I'm dreaming of the books being balanced and Sinn Fein will definitely not be bringing that to the table.

Sorry, you accused me of being ironic early in this thread. I'd appreciate it if you could explain why.

But in response to the above - A tea party will not bring balanced. It will only bring hatred, and counter-productive politics. 13.4% of the population is out of work. Crippling them further by attacking financial support and healthcare will not benefit the country - which is exactly what Libertarian politics would attempt to introduce.

Permabear

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steelcityblues

There are libertarians like myself, who believe that most of those at the Tea Party marches are nothing but gullible sheep (ironically like the majority of Obama voters in 08), who are being led down a false road by charlatans like Sarah Palin.

I'm sure the same could happen with tea-party like protests over here!

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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So if a watered down Libertarian party can't cut it in Ireland, what makes you believe that there is a desire for a true Libertarian party?

Valmont

dlofnep wrote: »

So if a watered down Libertarian party can't cut it in Ireland, what makes you believe that there is a desire for a true Libertarian party?

That's not the issue. The issue is whether a group proposing a reduction in government control of the economy and spending cuts in line with our actual tax intake would have much support in Ireland and would you support such a group. If Sinn Fein has some way of helping the country financially then I'm all ears but I seriously doubt it does past some vague "tax the rich" proposals.

northwest100

Eliot Rosewater wrote:

I think this thread illustrates a key problem with the tea party movement: their public image is, quite simply, atrocious. While I agree with their small-government beliefs, I feel that holding placards such as "Obama is a socialist" and "President Obama, Show Us Your Birth Certificate" is counter-productive and only alienates people from one's protest.

it's largely been hijacked at this point.

southsiderosie

The Tea Party isn't a movement of voters as much as it is a movement of parents. Of moms and dads, grannies and grandpas, who see the prosperity of their kids at risk. They see their kids struggling to find jobs today, while they're being saddled with hope-crushing debts for tomorrow.

Unlike the spoiled, violent Euroweenie thugs setting fires in Greece, American Tea Partiers aren't trying to protect their own pensions today. They're fighting for their children's economic fortunes in the future.

So maybe you're willing to live with less. But what about your kids? What about the 30pc of young Irish men and women who can't find work? What about them?

This is exactly why I can't take the Tea Partiers seriously.

"Grannies and Grandpas" were the first in line for the ruinously expensive Medicare expansion passed under the Bush administration.

"Moms and Dads" who have adult children (i.e. they are generally in their 50s and are statistically more likely to vote Republican)) stood by while the Bush administration spent billions on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan while simultaneously enacting tax cuts.

As for youth unemployment, again, older workers, and in particular older unionized workers have been more than willing to give short shrift to younger workers in order to protect their Cadillac benefits.

(And this is to say nothing of the crackpots and racists who regularly show up for these events).

In short, I'm calling shenanigans on the Tea Partiers. I am not happy with current levels of government spending, and I have not been a fan of Obama's economic team from Day 1, but to pretend that America turned onto the Highway to Hell in January 2009 is disingenuous, at best. They should have been raising hell 4 (or more) years ago. **** them. :mad:

Finally, if there is anyone who should be out raising hell in the streets, it should be the under-35s, who will be unable to buy their own homes or start their own families because their parents and grandparents refused to tax themselves to pay for the level of public services that they consistently demanded.

regi

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think this thread illustrates a key problem with the tea party movement: their public image is, quite simply, atrocious. While I agree with their small-government beliefs, I feel that holding placards such as "Obama is a socialist" and "President Obama, Show Us Your Birth Certificate" is counter-productive and only alienates people from one's protest.

Pretty much a shame, in my opinion. I believe the core message is one of financial and individual responsibility and trying to show those currently in office who really holds power in a democracy. This is the message that brings all those in attendance together and its a pretty good one.

However, while everyone at an event might agree on those principals, some will drag other baggage along too - much of which I disagree with, especially the Christian fundamentalism.

I feel it is similar to well meaning Irish demonstrations by decent honest people, hijacked by the likes of SWP or Eirigi. A good message, but infected by some who associate with it.

Would something similar to the tax marches of the 70s be the kernel of what Ireland needs now?

KrazeeEyezKilla

Unlike the spoiled, violent Euroweenie thugs setting fires in Greece, American Tea Partiers aren't trying to protect their own pensions today. They're fighting for their children's economic fortunes in the future.

If he wants people to take him seriously he could start by not using stupid, nonsense words like "Euroweenie". I'd have more time for people calling for cuts if they focussed on quango's, bank bailouts and other massive wastes of money instead of always targeting Public Servants.

Laminations

Not another f'ing libertarian thread, how many times are you going to reopen this debate under different thread titles? Are we to go through the usual rigmaroll of pulling you ideology apart to show it's unworkable?

Valmont wrote: »

As it stands, even the very idea of a significantly smaller (not non-existent) government is far beyond the country's comprehension. I can't see anything wrong with trying to even open the debate on such matters. Something is going to have to change sooner later.

I think the idea of smaller government is understood by most and accepted as necessary in places. The government need to do less in places and more in others, that's never what DF is arguing for however

bonkey

This is not a thread about Sinn Fein...and it is clear that some posters would like to discuss the actual topic.

Please respect that.

Pride Fighter

Ireland does not want racist, right wing, christian fundamentalists protesting over something which actually helps people. In America they are protesting over health reform which will actually help the poorer sections of society.

I have no problem with genuine Libertarians. I'd consider myself one in a social sense. But the 'so-called' libertarians on this board who agree with the tea party movement is baffling.

The tea party movement has sent death threats and assaulted members of both republican and democrat legislators at state and national level. They are basically a right wing SWP. Can I ask how are those actions libertarian?

Many in this movement are opposed to abortion. Something every libertarian would be in favour of.

They are also in favour of making the US a theocratic christian state, something that would conflict with libertarians too.

So in essence, a racist, fundamentalist movement is not something we want here.

toiletduck

A Tea Party movement for Ireland?

No, not a chance. Any calls/movement promoting a "expenses less than or equal to income" charge on the Government would no doubt earn the ire of unions, Labour etc. And judging from here, would earn the title of racists, bigots and crazy right wing nut jobs... Go figure.

Valmont wrote:

I'm not dreaming of a libertarian utopia; I'm dreaming of the books being balanced

This pretty much is what I'd like to see.

Not likely any time soon.

Permabear

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billy the squid

The Tea Party movement would have died on it's ass were it not for the promotion of it by Fox News. If such a movement were to form and get the support of a broadcaster, the Broadcasting Authority would come down on them like a ton of bricks.

As for the article in the original post

When Europeans ask me why Americans are so angry, I just shake my head in bemusement. Ten per cent unemployment, $3 trillion in new debt, a $1 trillion stimulus that only stimulated more wages for government workers -- what else do you need to know? Now comes word that, thanks to the Obama administration's devotion to ever-higher debt, Moody's may downgrade our AAA bond rating, and of course we're angry. We're mad as hell!

People are giving too much credance to moodys, there have been calls for these credit rating agencies to be investigated after the way they gave AAA status to sub prime lenders. Also, how much of that US deficit came from Bush?

Unlike the spoiled, violent Euroweenie thugs setting fires in Greece, American Tea Partiers aren't trying to protect their own pensions today. They're fighting for their children's economic fortunes in the future.

Yeah, that is a sure fire way to get people to consider your point of view, by insulting them.

And does he not consider spitting at elected representatives, hurling racial slurs at them as they go to vote, or burning effogies of your president are not thuggish?

I wouldn't trust Graham as far as I could throw him.

I prefer those involved in a debate to state their facts honestly. during his segment on George Hook he claimed that Barack Obama had not given a press conference in 300 days. in fact, many in the right-wing media were making this claim, and it had long been debunked - yet Graham still propegated this untruth.

Eliot Rosewater

regi wrote: »

Would something similar to the tax marches of the 70s be the kernel of what Ireland needs now?

I'm not well informed about those marches, but I do know that SIPTU certainly wouldn't support a movement for tax and spending restraint! But it does raise an interesting angle on the way the government operates. At the moment a lot of vested interest groups are trying to get what they want from government in terms of increased spending. A movement towards fiscal restrains could also be viewed as an interest group - except working in the opposite direction, towards decreased spending.

Laminations wrote: »

Not another f'ing libertarian thread

It's not a libertarian thread at all. It's about seeing if a broad alliance of liberals could unite to campaign for some fiscal restraint and individual rights.

southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

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The central message of the movement is that government spending is bad if it's done by Democrats or benefits citizens under 55. Economic freedom is ok as long as it doesn't affect agricultural subsidies that primarily help conservative states. Individual responsibility and low government regulation is great until there is a flood or disaster, and then it's Obama's the government's fault. And taxes stink, unless they are federal taxes disproportionately paid by states like California and Massachusetts in order to be redistributed to "anti-tax" stalwarts like Mississippi (ok, all of the Deep South). In other words, the central message is one of mass hypocrisy and amnesia when it comes to the last decade of American politics.

donegalfella wrote: »

For the record, I didn't start this thread to debate the Tea Party movement in the United States. The U.S. Politics sub-forum has threads on that topic. I'm interested in whether there's room for a pro–fiscal restraint, pro–individual responsibility, pro–economic freedom, anti–vested interests movement in this country. Not a resurrection of the Progressive Democrats, but something newer and better.

Fine, to bring it back to Ireland, it won't work because the Irish show little to no willingness to engage in mass protests unless there is a missed World Cup berth involved. :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, it won't work because the Irish have distributed even more goodies through the political system than the US government (thus meaning there would be even more inherent hypocrisy), and potential organizers wouldn't have the luxury of a federal, decentralized structure to deflect blame.

CoalBucket

Unusually for myself I do not have any strong opinion on the topic, other than my distaste for Michael Graham, a man described by Michael D Higgins as a "wanker".

I must admit though it's one of the few times I've seen a sensible discussion on boards that has generally stayed on topic for 3 pages !!

MysticalRain

donegalfella wrote: »

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There probably is. Just not one led by crazy tea party types and libertarian utopians.

Eliot Rosewater

southsiderosie wrote: »

On a more serious note, it won't work because the Irish have distributed even more goodies through the political system than the US government (thus meaning there would be even more inherent hypocrisy), and potential organizers wouldn't have the luxury of a federal, decentralized structure to deflect blame.

I see your point with relation to the US Tea Party, but how does this pertain to Ireland? Are you saying that you think a potential liberal alliance would be in support of some cuts, but not of others?

I would like to believe that a liberal alliance would take a disciplined approach. Balanced books and a greater emphasis on the individual being the goal, all spending reductions would be considered.

southsiderosie

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I see your point with relation to the US Tea Party, but how does this pertain to Ireland? Are you saying that you think a potential liberal alliance would be in support of some cuts, but not of others?

I would like to believe that a liberal alliance would take a disciplined approach. Balanced books and a greater emphasis on the individual being the goal, all spending reductions would be considered.

Well, in Ireland, far more so than the U.S. EVERYONE gets a handout - single mothers, married parents, students, elderly. So from a logical perspective, to adopt a Tea Party platform participants would potentially be even more hypocritical in Ireland than in the US - UNLESS they were willing to a) admit their complicity in letting things get this far in the first place, and b) willingly take some of the pain themselves (HA!). I don't see either of these happening, but I think it's a moot point anyway because I certainly haven't seen anything in the last year to make me think that there was any kind of mass movement brewing (I also think this is why you won't see means-testing: keeping benefits available to all helps insulate them against budget cuts).

In addition, the Tea Partiers are benefiting from the fact that there are mid-term elections coming up, so they can get actively involved in primary campaigns. The Irish government won't even call by-elections to fill 3 empty seats; by comparison the Tea Partiers got a huge bounce from the special election to fill the late Ted Kennedy's seat. Since rules about primaries and local elections are made at a state level, the national government can't squash opposition movements in order to save its own hide - which is essentially what the current Irish government is doing.

So to sum up, too many people benefit from the current set-up in Ireland, lack of elections makes mass mobilization difficult, and even if there were upcoming elections, Irish voters don't have a taste for the kind of confrontational politics that are more routine in the US.

Valmont

"Spending cuts...here?!, what are you? Some kind of right wing nut job lunatic libertarian nazi christian theocratic capitalist scumbag?"

It's a shame that any thread now proposing spending cuts is immediately cast off as some sort of "lunatic libertarian" thread. The cat calls from the side are diluting the actual topic being discussed.

I was watching Frontline last week and one of the speakers, Constantin Gurdgiev, seemed like he was definitely behind getting the balance sheets back in order. I wonder why he hasn't put more of an effort into publicly stating his views although I don't read the papers every day so maybe he has.

southsiderosie wrote: »

So from a logical perspective, to adopt a Tea Party platform participants would potentially be even more hypocritical in Ireland than in the US - UNLESS they were willing to a) admit their complicity in letting things get this far in the first place, and b) willingly take some of the pain themselves (HA!).

That's just it, when you have so many citizens receiving state benefits and income, can you really ask them to just take a cut or give it up like that? Of course not.

ei.sdraob

Valmont wrote: »

"Spending cuts...here?!, what are you? Some kind of right wing nut job lunatic libertarian nazi christian theocratic capitalist scumbag?"

It's a shame that any thread now proposing spending cuts is immediately cast off as some sort of "lunatic libertarian" thread. The cat calls from the side are diluting the actual topic being discussed.

I was watching Frontline last week and one of the speakers, Constantin Gurdgiev, seemed like he was definitely behind getting the balance sheets back in order. I wonder why he hasn't put more of an effort into publicly stating his views although I don't read the papers every day so maybe he has.

That's just it, when you have so many citizens receiving state benefits and income, can you really ask them to just take a cut or give it up like that? Of course not.

he does on his blog, take todays article

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-30052010-gargantuan-task.html

Permabear

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randomchild

While I do disagree with a lot of what the tea party stands for in terms of policy, my main gripe is with the way they express themselves. Shouting down people at debates, smearing anyone who dares stand in there way as "communists" "socialists" etc. From what I have seen of them, they are not interested in a civil and constructive debate, but instead pushing debunked theories on Obama's birth or at its worst, promoting violent insurrection when the democratic process does not go your way. I am not saying this can solely be found in the tea party or is representative of all of them, but it is prevalent amongst both there leadership and there ground followers. Thus, while I have no problem with an Irish Tea Party thats follows its theory, I would strongly oppose one that follows its methods. This is why I support the Coffee Party movement as opposed to its less caffeinated cousin...

jank

donegalfella wrote: »

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In some parts I agree with you, entirely in fact BUT having someone like Michael Graham heading this up puts me off straight away from having anything to do with a movement like this. How about getting rid of him first? The man makes Glenn Beck look reasonable

That man doesn’t have a clue regardless. He wants to call the Irish tea Party the Whisky revolution FFS. Seriously the man is an S&P grade AAA+ @sshole.

monosharp

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sounds great in theory, in practice it ends up been liberty and prosperity for a few individuals.

I've lived all over the world and I think I've gained a considerable insight into politics around the globe and theres one common factor. The common people are slaves to the system, its just a matter of degree.

Now I'm not going to start ranting about the bourgeoisie and the proletariat but you get my point.

But could an actual Tea Party movement happen in this country?

I don't think the Irish people are that stupid. But judging by our economic sensibilities and the eejits we vote into power, I'd say theres hope for anything.

Would you support such a movement, and if so, why? Or would you turn your back on it, and if so, why?

Absolutely not. It'd be a waste of time.

The system needs to be scrapped and a new one put in its place. Anything short of this will simply be the status quo wallpapered over.