Single parents to lose welfare payment when child turns 13

MagicMarker

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0529/1224271393377.html

SINGLE PARENTS whose youngest child is over 13 will no longer be able to claim one-parent family payments under the terms of new social welfare legislation published last evening.

The change was described as “blunt and brutal” by Olwyn Enright, the Fine Gael spokeswoman on social protection, who accused Fianna Fáil of a cynical political move in releasing the information late on a Friday.

Under the terms of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2010 there will also be changes to disqualify people from collecting Jobseeker’s Allowance if they refuse an offer of suitable employment.

The one-parent family payment is currently paid to a parent until the youngest child reaches 18, or 22, if the child is in full-time education.

The Government said the changes would bring Ireland’s support for lone parents more in line with international provisions, where there is “a general movement away from long-term and passive income support”.

It added that the current arrangements, whereby a lone parent can receive the allowance without any requirement for them to engage in employment, education or training, were not in the best interests of the recipient, their children or society.

“Despite improvements made to the one-parent family payment over the years, a large proportion of lone parents and their children are still experiencing poverty,” it added.

There were about 90,500 recipients of the payment at the end of last year, a 53 per cent increase since 1997.

The total cost of the scheme in 2009 was €1.1 billion, compared to €338 million in 1997.

The payment is made up of a personal rate for the parent of €196 a week with €29.80 for each additional qualified child. The amount depends on the weekly means of the parent.

The Bill will be debated in the Oireachtas before the summer recess in early July.

Ms Enright said the announcement had been made without any plan to help those in one-parent families into education and employment.

“The decision to cut the payment is blunt and brutal and, damningly for the Government, is not backed up by a clear plan,” she said.

Ms Enright said Minister for Social Protection Éamon Ó Cúív was ignoring that over 80 per cent of one-parent families were already engaged in education, training or work. She added that Fine Gael was very much in favour of encouraging people into work or training.

“I know that the majority of people in receipt of social welfare want the opportunity to upskill, retrain or work,” she said.

“It is a pity Fianna Fáil didn’t recognise the merits of this when the country had full employment and that they are only belatedly coming around to the notion now they see it as a way of saving money,” added Ms Enright.

Even I don't see the logic behind this. Sure, like anything there are some of those who abuse the system, but a lot of people also depend on this extra income to support their children! Can't they at least bring in means testing to see who really needs it?

easyeason3

Random checks should be carried out in order to establish whether or not financial help ie required. Means testing can be a bit of a joke.

Many, many single parents do need the help.

But then there is the usual skanger that makes you wonder if they had children just to get handouts.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0529/1224271393377.html



Even I don't see the logic behind this. Sure, like anything there are some of those who abuse the system, but a lot of people also depend on this extra income to support their children! Can't they at least bring in means testing to see who really needs it?

It added that the current arrangements, whereby a lone parent can receive the allowance without any requirement for them to engage in employment, education or training, were not in the best interests of the recipient, their children or society.

Good idea. All SW payments should move towards a model that promotes activity and punishes lifetime scrounging.

MagicMarker

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Good idea. All SW payments should move towards a model that promotes activity and punishes lifetime scrounging.

Pushing people even further into poverty = bad idea.

pookie82

You need to ask if people should be entitled to these payouts for just having children. I know that sounds blunt, and I'm not trying to be rude - there are single mums in my family and I know how hard it is. However, we cannot as a state afford to support these mothers and children into their adulthood anymore. And for every genuine single mother out there trying to get by there's another popping out kids and getting houses and money from the state for their efforts.

Something has got to give.

omahaid

Why can't they get a part time job or something when the child turns 13?

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

Pushing people even further into poverty = bad idea.

Or pushing people to be proactive about their own situation? There comes a point where people must take responsibility for themselves, you know. What is wrong with a little push for single parents to actually better themselves and their circumstances?

Offy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Or pushing people to be proactive about their own situation? There comes a point where people must take responsibility for themselves, you know. What is wrong with a little push for single parents to actually better themselves and their circumstances?

I couldnt agree more, with all the jobs out there they have no excuse. While the push is on lets get rid of social welfare completely then we can really save some money for government expenditure. Maybe it would be possible to abort children if their parents arent together anymore or if their single? What about that for a solution?

MagicMarker

omahaid wrote: »

Why can't they get a part time job or something when the child turns 13?

Who, the child or the parent?

Offy

omahaid wrote: »

Why can't they get a part time job or something when the child turns 13?

Maybe for the same reason people without children cant get jobs or do you think the recession is fictional?

MagicMarker

Offy wrote: »

I couldnt agree more, with all the jobs out there they have no excuse.

*edit* I should have read the whole post

Schism

omahaid wrote: »

Why can't they get a part time job or something when the child turns 13?

Because there's few jobs available, especially ones that would suit a single parent.

I'll say this now and hopefully it will be enough for the whole thread:

1. The recession won't last forever
2. We have only been in recession for 2 years.


I can't stand when people make out that we've been slogging away with no jobs for the last 50 years.

Offy

Offy wrote: »

I couldnt agree more, with all the jobs out there they have no excuse. While the push is on lets get rid of social welfare completely then we can really save some money for government expenditure. Maybe it would be possible to abort children if their parents arent together anymore or if their single? What about that for a solution?

So you would disagree with a single parent being pushed to go do some training/upskilling etc?
You think they should get to stay at home with the kids for 22 years on the taxpayers dollar? My mother was out working every day when I grew up, do you think she shouldn't have bothered?

This bill is about REMOVING THE POVERTY TRAP that many people find themselves in. Bettering themselves. Taking some fcuking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

dublinguy2004

MagicMarker wrote: »

Pushing people even further into poverty = bad idea.

Could you explain what you mean by "poverty"? Does that include people with flat screen tellies and people who are able to go out and get locked a couple of times week courtesy of the State?

omahaid

I dunno where people get this idea that all of a sudden no one is in employment in the republic There are plenty part time jobs around, I'm going into town later and I will count the number of help wanted ad's around. At 13 the child is old enough to look after themselves so there is no reason why a single mother cant get a part time job. Plus, the Irish state is going through a bit of a cash crisis.

MagicMarker

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So you would disagree with a single parent being pushed to go do some training/upskilling etc?
You think they should get to stay at home with the kids for 22 years on the taxpayers dollar? My mother was out working every day when I grew up, do you think she shouldn't have bothered?

This bill is about REMOVING THE POVERTY TRAP that many people find themselves in. Bettering themselves. Taking some fcuking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Training/up skilling costs money. How is taking money away from them going to encourage them?

If the government were serious about encouraging single parents to better themselves then they should put some more thought into it. This is them just trying to save money, no more no less.

Hyperbullet

Does this affect single parent families where the parent is already working? If so thats f*cked up. I cant imagine trying to rear a child alone while earning minimum wage.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

Training/up skilling costs money. How is taking money away from them going to encourage them?

If the government were serious about encouraging single parents to better themselves then they should put some more thought into it. This is them just trying to save money, no more no less.

Are you serious? There are so many programs to get unemployed people back through college/fas programs etc. You even get your way paid through them!

You cannot be serious? Surely? Or do you just not have a clue what you are talking about? Perhaps.

easyeason3

MagicMarker wrote: »

Training/up skilling costs money. How is taking money away from them going to encourage them?

If the government were serious about encouraging single parents to better themselves then they should put some more thought into it. This is them just trying to save money, no more no less.

If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day. If you teach a man how to fish he will eat for life.

The gravy train can't run forever & in my opinion these proposals will give people the motivation to get off their arse & get trained/ find work.

dublinguy2004

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Are you serious? There are so many programs to get unemployed people back through college/fas programs etc. You even get your way paid through them!

You cannot be serious? Surely? Or do you just not have a clue what you are talking about? Perhaps.

A ridiculous number of these courses are never completed. Most of them are a pile of meaningless ****e too. Designed to give soft middle class people with pass degrees cushy jobs and make the unemployed feel good about themselves after years of educational neglect, underperformance and bad personal decisions.

Offy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So you would disagree with a single parent being pushed to go do some training/upskilling etc?
You think they should get to stay at home with the kids for 22 years on the taxpayers dollar? My mother was out working every day when I grew up, do you think she shouldn't have bothered?

This bill is about REMOVING THE POVERTY TRAP that many people find themselves in. Bettering themselves. Taking some fcuking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

WOW what a load of nonsense. This bill is about cutting expenditure not removing the poverty trap as you claim.
As regards your mom, I couldnt give a toss to be honest, if she wants to work when someone else raises her kids then thats her choice and equally if someone wants to raise their kids thats their choice.

MagicMarker

Other than FÁS what is there? What kind of availability are there these days for FÁS courses? Is childcare paid for when you're upskilling? I'm sure an ECDL course will count for a lot.

dublinguy2004

MagicMarker wrote: »

Other than FÁS what is there? What kind of availability are there these days for FÁS courses? Is childcare paid for when you're upskilling? I'm sure an ECDL course will count for a lot.

ECDL courses are a load of ****. Every Facebooking teenager in the country can figure out how to use Microsoft tools within a day. ECDL = part of Microsoft's marketing strategy.

MagicMarker

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

ECDL courses are a load of ****. Every Facebooking teenager in the country can figure out how to use Microsoft tools within a day. ECDL = part of Microsoft's marketing strategy.

Sorry, I forgot the include the rolleyes to ensure it was known that I was taking the piss.

Maybe they should learn how to drive a forklift instead?
Or a delivery driver?
Machine tool operator?

GO FÁS!

Pauleta

We need to get rid of the culture of if you have kids the state will look after the children financially.

Offy

omahaid wrote: »

I dunno where people get this idea that all of a sudden no one is in employment in the republic There are plenty part time jobs around, I'm going into town later and I will count the number of help wanted ad's around. At 13 the child is old enough to look after themselves so there is no reason why a single mother cant get a part time job. Plus, the Irish state is going through a bit of a cash crisis.

Ive been a single parent for over 10 years now. Legally 13 is old enough to leave a child alone but if you do you risk gardai giving you loads of headache (not just gardai either, look at all the people that will moan about a 13 year old left unattended) so you require childminding and in order to be able to afford that you need more than minimum wage.

Hyperbullet

Pauleta wrote: »

We need to get rid of the culture of if you have kids the state will look after the children financially.

I agree, however if the parent is working for several years earning minimum wage and has 2 kids to look after, surely they deserve some assistance. I dont agree with parents who feckin live off the childrens allowance.

Offy

MagicMarker wrote: »

Other than FÁS what is there? What kind of availability are there these days for FÁS courses? Is childcare paid for when you're upskilling? I'm sure an ECDL course will count for a lot.

Believe it or not a few years ago male lone parent could not claim the childminding allowance from FAS. I wes told that my ex could claim it but not me!!! I dont know if that has changed since '05.

dublinguy2004

Offy wrote: »

Ive been a single parent for over 10 years now. Legally 13 is old enough to leave a child alone but if you do you risk gardai giving you loads of headache (not just gardai either, look at all the people that will moan about a 13 year old left unattended) so you require childminding and in order to be able to afford that you need more than minimum wage.

Surely young women should think about those little details before they open their legs? Particularly in a post-feminst world where working mothers are the norm.

MagicMarker

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Surely young women should think about those little details before they open their legs? Particularly in a post-feminst world where working mothers are the norm.

*facepalm*

Yes, it's all the women's fault!

Dear fúcking god.

dublinguy2004

Hyperbullet wrote: »

I agree, however if the parent is working for several years earning minimum wage and has 2 kids to look after, surely they deserve some assistance. I dont agree with parents who feckin live off the childrens allowance.

Bollox. The father and the mother's family have ten or 100 times the responsibilty for the child over the State and its taxpayers.

Hyperbullet

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Bollox. The father and the mother's family have ten or 100 times the responsibilty for the child over the State and its taxpayers.

Right, so you're saying that the single parent should rely on their own parents/brothers/sisters for financial support is that it?

brianthebard

omahaid wrote: »

I dunno where people get this idea that all of a sudden no one is in employment in the republic There are plenty part time jobs around, I'm going into town later and I will count the number of help wanted ad's around. At 13 the child is old enough to look after themselves so there is no reason why a single mother cant get a part time job. Plus, the Irish state is going through a bit of a cash crisis.

Let us know how that tally goes, all I see around Galway these days is chef jobs. Its become a theme of government cuts at this stage to target those who can't speak out or defend themselves, and to make a big show about cuts which in reality won't add up to much (NUI, Dublin swimming pools, pensions; they thought oap's wouldn't fight back!) this is just another one of these acts of 'tough guy' cuts by an incompetent government.

North_West_Art

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I'll say this now and hopefully it will be enough for the whole thread:

1. The recession won't last forever
2. We have only been in recession for 2 years.


I can't stand when people make out that we've been slogging away with no jobs for the last 50 years.

In 1985, the ICI bank went under, resulting in the government having to bailout the AIB to the tune of IRL£403 million. To pay this off, a couple of quid was added onto each insurance policy the bank sold, plus a few other measures to try and make up the amount. This bailout bill is STILL being paid off today, 25 years later.
The NAMA bill is €73 Billion, now do the maths

dublinguy2004

MagicMarker wrote: »

*facepalm*

Yes, it's all the women's fault!

Dear fúcking god.

Women who go out and get pregnant when there's no father around, expecting the State to pick up the tab, are stupid. I have lots of sympathy for deserted women (particularly when they're married and committed to each other both legally and socially), but find it hard to have any sympathy for women who are pregnant multiple times with multiple fathers and then crib and moan about "poverty". Meanwhile they're sitting smugly in their city-centre flat and watch their flat screen telly with no intention of ever working a day in their lives.

Family values and responsible parents is what's needed. This prevailing nanny State mentality that exists in Ireland is a disaster and people who go on and on about it are pathetic weak excuses for human beings.

MagicMarker

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Women who go out and get pregnant when there's no father around, expecting the State to pick up the tab, are stupid. I have lots of sympathy for deserted women (particularly when they're married and committed to each other both legally and socially), but find it hard to have any sympathy for women who are pregnant multiple times with multiple fathers and then crib and moan about "poverty". Meanwhile they're sitting smugly in their city-centre flat and watch their flat screen telly with no intention of ever working a day in their lives.

Family values and responsible parents is what's needed. This prevailing nanny State mentality that exists in Ireland is a disaster and people who go on and on about it are pathetic weak excuses for human beings.

Chip, meet shoulder.

Offy

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Surely young women should think about those little details before they open their legs? Particularly in a post-feminst world where working mothers are the norm.

Firstly Im not a woman. Secondly Surely young men should stand by their children and not leave it up to young women to raise their kids?

Truley

Pauleta wrote: »

We need to get rid of the culture of if you have kids the state will look after the children financially.

I suppose your kids wont be getting children's allowance, free dental care, eye checks, national primary education, university education, third level grants ... :rolleyes:

The amount of begrudgery that comes from these threads is mind boggling. Socail Policy from people who really haven't a clue. So what, a mother doesn't get the allowance, she may find a job, she very well may not. If she does she is expected to fork out for childcare, which she more than likely can't afford, and have someone else raise her kid. Purely for the sake of busy work to appear like she's not a drain on the 'taxpayer.' Have a look at how these schemes have worked out in America yeah. Raising children is a job, it's one of the few 'real' jobs that are out there. Get off your high horses and stop making up problems where there aren't any. Jeeeez.

Remember it takes two to tango and for every single parent there is absent one who has shirked all responsibility. Why not have a go at them for a change.

Hyperbullet

Offy wrote: »

Firstly Im not a woman. Secondly Surely young men should stand by their children and not leave it up to young women to raise their kids?

In an ideal society, that would be the case. Not so i'm afraid.

Mike 1972

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

people with flat screen tellies

Flat (and/or wide) screen tellies are not necessairly that expensive in this day and age. Indeed any other kind are starting to get a bit thin on the ground.

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Women who go out and get pregnant when there's no father around, .

Test tube babies ?

MagicMarker

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Test tube babies ?

I blame Jesus, the bastard!

wobblyknees

Is this payment for single/lone parents who aren't working and have children? So, if I understand it correctly, it's the standard jsa payment of €196 per week plus an extra €29.80 per child.

No. Of Children / Payment

1 / €225.80
2 / €255.60
3 / €285.40
4 / €315.20
5 / €345.00

Wow, seems to me your typical single parent is living the life of luxury alright.

To the usual high horse brigade who think every woman pushing a pram is sponging off the state by choice as, for example, the recession hasn't lasted for 50 years, when things were good, unemployment was very very low in Ireland.

This suggests to me that in general, most people want to, and will work if they can. There will always be those who take advantage of the system. It happens the world over and has to be monitored and dealt with obviously.

What should not be done is for a very cynical, broad brush stroke, controversial change to legislation be brought in on a Friday evening, when it will get little or no coverage as it is in fact no more than a money saving excercise on the governments part.

Hyperbullet

MagicMarker wrote: »

I blame Jesus, the bastard!

Sure wasn't his aul wan claiming the social as well.

omahaid

Offy wrote: »

Ive been a single parent for over 10 years now. Legally 13 is old enough to leave a child alone but if you do you risk gardai giving you loads of headache (not just gardai either, look at all the people that will moan about a 13 year old left unattended) so you require childminding and in order to be able to afford that you need more than minimum wage.

My daughter is perfectly able to mind herself if I go shopping or whatever for a few hours and she's 11.

omahaid

I suppose as a reasonable measure, surely all the vanished dads should be made pay child support as well. It might be easier to swallow the lone parent allowance disappearing if all the dads paid their way too.

omahaid

brianthebard wrote: »

Let us know how that tally goes

Will do, know of a few part time jobs (shop assistant and the like) already.

Hyperbullet

omahaid wrote: »

I suppose as a reasonable measure, surely all the vanished dads should be made pay child support as well. It might be easier to swallow the lone parent allowance disappearing if all the dads paid their way too.

Reasonable measure? It should be mandatory. In the case of all suddenly "vanished" fathers the old saying should apply: "He who dips his wick, must pay for the oil"

dlofnep

Ah, our wonderful Government. They pick and choose when age counts.

Take for example college grants. Even as a mature student, if you live at home - you go on your parents income when being means-tested for a grant, despite not receiving anything from them and paying them digs.

But Mr. Government, they are over 23 and self-sufficient, why should they go on their parents income?

And now they want to cut welfare for women because their child has magically hit 13, which the only logic that I can see of being that the child can mind themselves. The Government is trying to force a wedge to fix the problems it created. They want:

• Women to find jobs that don't exist.
• Take training courses that have no merit.
• Leave their child at home alone, which leaves less parental interaction - increasing that risk that their child will engage with crime. Especially in teen years, children from broken homes or single parent families tend to do not as well as children from normal families. And now, they want to even damage whatever good a single parent being present can do?

Seloth

omahaid wrote: »

My daughter is perfectly able to mind herself if I go shopping or whatever for a few hours and she's 11.

Ya but most kids mightend be.If its the odd time maybe but if a parent had to do it quite often as of a job it can be a bit damaging if they were by themselves.

I was shockedwhen I used to here my mates parents at 14/15 leaving them on their own for a week as they went on holiday!.17 ya but 14/15 are you kidding me hah.

Splendour

Hyperbullet wrote: »

Reasonable measure? It should be mandatory. In the case of all suddenly "vanished" fathers the old saying should apply: "He who dips his wick, must pay for the oil"

Problem with this is, the state don't make Dads pay even when there is the father is on the scene. I think before the government abolish lone parent payment, it should be mandatory for fathers to pay proper maintenance for their children.