Securing the Border

Carcharodon

I read recently that Obama has sent 1200 National Guard troops to increase security along the Rio Bravo and also allocated an extra 500 million to help law enforcement along the border.

I have my own personal views on immigration reform but I have come to a realization that in order to have reform the borders must be secured as not just to appease one side but so the situation doesn't just go through the same cycles again and again.

Now this may seem like a silly or stupid question but doesn't the US have the highest number of troops based outside of its country, there are over 50,000 based in Germany, 30 + in Japan I think and so on. I know some of these troops are for the the engagements in Afghanistan and Iraq but it does seem like a high number.

My question is, Why can't the US deploy troops to secure the border ? It seems like a simple short term solution for me.

I would rather the US had better foreign policies and such so there wouldn't be so many immigrating here but the reality is that there needs to be a better form of control if progress is to be made.

Manic Moran

My question is, Why can't the US deploy troops to secure the border ?

Couple of reasons.

Firstly, and most importantly, there is the argument that it would result in the use of troops to perform a domestic law enforcement function. A serious no-no in the US legal system. You can argue that defending the border is a legitimate function of the US military, but as long as violations are prosecuted under the civil legal system (as opposed to just shooting border-crossers), I don't think it holds water. National Guard troops do not suffer this legal glitch, but their use increases the defence budget a bit more, and can also cause disruption in the civilian workforce, depending on the method used to select the Guardsmen.

Secondly, there is a fear of the perception of militarising the border. I'm not such a fan of this argument, it's not as if we're preparing to invade Mexico.

And thirdly, the federal troops not currently involved in operations are likely on their dwell time until they go again, or are considered required in their current location. Eg Japanese-based troops are quite handily placed for a fight in Korea, which is of course back in the news again. If on dwell time, they need to be resetting or training for combat, not sitting on a border not doing Army tasks.

NTM

Overheal

What is the current federal/state body that handles border patrol? There doesnt seem to be a Coast Guard equivalent, for instance.

Mjollnir

Overheal wrote: »

What is the current federal/state body that handles border patrol? There doesnt seem to be a Coast Guard equivalent, for instance.

The Border Patrol. It's the federal police agency responsible for that.

Manic Moran

What is the current federal/state body that handles border patrol?

Mjollnir wrote: »

The Border Patrol.

I'm sorry. I just had to laugh.

www.cbp.gov

You know, that said, it does seem like a fun job. What other government pays you to wear a cowboy hat, gun, and ride a horse in the West?







NTM

Overheal

Well I just imagine the border patrol as - well that: totally ill-equipped. And technically speaking, not a Uniformed Service of the US. More of what patrols the borders almost sounds like Volunteer platoons these days from what I hear in the media. Hence the dumb question.

Why not turn them into a Uniformed service and modernise them and expand on their structure? Why are volunteers not being enlisted into the Border Patrol for instance?

Manic Moran

Overheal wrote: »

Well I just imagine the border patrol as - well that: totally ill-equipped.

The horses are just used for the more inaccessible places. Vehicles vary from Crown Vics to jeeps and DX2s.


CBP is no small organisation. They have a very well equipped air force. The only law enforcement agency with AEW aircraft, for example.

Black Hawks.

Predators.


And a whole load of smaller stuff. But they still need to have more people on the ground, the US's borders are not small.

Why not turn them into a Uniformed service and modernise them and expand on their structure? Why are volunteers not being enlisted into the Border Patrol for instance?

They are a law enforcement agency, with sworn officers. And volunteers are unreliable, you can't make a schedule with people who may or may not show up. There is no need for them to be a uniformed service, they're police.

NTM

Amerika

Why stop illegal aliens when the beauty they add to the Arizona desert scenes are oh so photogenic.

Carcharodon

Amerika wrote: »

Why stop illegal aliens when the beauty they add to the Arizona desert scenes are oh so photogenic.

Yes, because this is what it breaks down to :rolleyes:

Black Swan

Adopt the China solution?



Or the old Soviet solution?

Manic Moran

Both turned into tourist traps, might be good for the economy.

NTM

Carcharodon

The whole building a fence has just seemed to be a total bunch of incompetence across the board. The virtual fence has had severe problems and has been put on hold I think.
Then there is the actual fence that is or was being built, it seems to be costing billions of dollars but does not have the desired effects, people will always find a way around it (or under it). Maintaining a fully finished fence would probably cost tax payers billions to maintain every year also.
Then there is the manpower needed to secure such a big border, fence or no fence.

Is the border indefensible ?

Mjollnir

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm sorry. I just had to laugh.

www.cbp.gov

You know, that said, it does seem like a fun job. What other government pays you to wear a cowboy hat, gun, and ride a horse in the West?







NTM

Plenty of Sheriff's Departments all across the western states still do exactly that, including where I'm from, Monterey County, CA.

Although, of course, they still mostly get the job done in Crown Vics and Broncos.

Amerika

Interesting bit of information from Senator Jon Kyl. Looks like Obama has no want or desire to secure the border with Mexico. I bet if you took a poll today, I bet most Americans would tend to believe Senator Jon Kyl over this White House administration on the matter of securing the border. I know I do.
http://www.thefoxnation.com/sen-jon-kyl/2010/06/21/senator-obama-told-me-hes-not-securing-border-purpose

kev9100

Amerika wrote: »

Interesting bit of information from Senator Jon Kyl. Looks like Obama has no want or desire to secure the border with Mexico. I bet if you took a poll today, I bet most Americans would tend to believe Senator Jon Kyl over this White House administration on the matter of securing the border. I know I do.
http://www.thefoxnation.com/sen-jon-kyl/2010/06/21/senator-obama-told-me-hes-not-securing-border-purpose

The day I believe Jon Kyl on anything will be a cold day in hell.

jank

Amerika wrote: »

Interesting bit of information from Senator Jon Kyl. Looks like Obama has no want or desire to secure the border with Mexico. I bet if you took a poll today, I bet most Americans would tend to believe Senator Jon Kyl over this White House administration on the matter of securing the border. I know I do.
http://www.thefoxnation.com/sen-jon-kyl/2010/06/21/senator-obama-told-me-hes-not-securing-border-purpose

You really do believe everything you read on the internet do you.

Amerika

How about the reach out from the Obama administration to Undocumented Democrats. I told you the push would be happening soon... And So It Begins. Enjoy the commercial! Next up will be the lawsuit against Arizona. Wonder how long until Spanish is made our official language?
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=Xd2GkUpr6U

kev9100

Amerika wrote: »

How about the reach out from the Obama administration to Undocumented Democrats. I told you the push would be happening soon... And So It Begins. Enjoy the commercial! Next up will be the lawsuit against Arizona. Wonder how long until Spanish is made our official language?
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=Xd2GkUpr6U

Is that a joke?

Amerika

kev9100 wrote: »

Is that a joke?

No, the commercial is real!

As for the language thing, yes it is sorta a joke (but one of those things where when it actually happens you say... God, I was only joking. Sort of like when Jimmy Carter was elected President). The United States does not have an official language… Yet! But some towns have made Spanish their official language. Who knows, it just might be a matter of time though. And if you live here, you already have to "Press 1 for English" when making a telephone call to government, businesses and the Democratic Party much of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aUvTUuBOo

amacachi

Amerika wrote: »

No, the commercial is real!

As for the language thing, yes it is sorta a joke (but one of those things where when it actually happens you say... God, I was only joking. Sort of like when Jimmy Carter was elected President). The United States does not have an official language… Yet! But some towns have made Spanish their official language. Who knows, it just might be a matter of time though. And if you live here, you already have to "Press 1 for English" when making a telephone call to government, businesses and the Democratic Party much of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aUvTUuBOo

So? Free market etc., if more people are speaking Spanish then it will be catered for and rightly so.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

How about the reach out from the Obama administration to Undocumented Democrats. I told you the push would be happening soon... And So It Begins. Enjoy the commercial! Next up will be the lawsuit against Arizona. Wonder how long until Spanish is made our official language?
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=Xd2GkUpr6U

undocumented work != illegal immigrant. Not every landscaper or their handimen are illegal, and how does a landscapers helper prove that they were on said job on such a date during these hours? What if his dickhole employer decides not to pay him? Undocument means you arent punching a card and its difficult or impossible to prove on paper (document...) that you worked, yet you are owed a wage still for that work.

as for the CNN video the bald guy is a bit of a blowhard. And kind of ignorant; if we were going on history and culture we'd be speaking a lot more german. It kind of distracted me from adopting his general premise about language barriers.

Amerika

Anybody else hearing about the threat of illegal alien amnesty merely by an Executive Order of President Obama? If the rumors are true, and he does go through with it, there truly needs to be impeachment proceedings.
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/june-21-2010/senators-challenge-pres-obama-rumors-executive-order-amnesty.html

rovert

Loving how easily Amerika is manipulated by wacky websites.

Amerika

rovert wrote: »

Loving how easily Amerika is manipulated by wacky websites.

Dazzling... So the letter that was sent to President Obama asking for clarification on the use of deferred action or parole for illegal aliens, signed by Sens. Grassley, Hatch (R-Utah), Vitter (R-La.), Bunning (R-Ky.), Chambliss (R-Ga.), Isakson (R-Ga.), Inhofe (R-Okla.), and Cochran (R-Miss.) is also just something from a “wacky” website? Ad-Hominem attacks are very unbecoming... or is that the only arguments Progressives are left with?

Amerika

kev9100 wrote: »

The day I believe Jon Kyl on anything will be a cold day in hell.

I listened to Senator Kyl speak with Mark Levin on his show yesterday about the meeting with President Obama. Kyl seemed pretty darn convincing. Why not give it a listen.
http://marklevinshow.com/Article.asp?id=1850749&spid=32364

rovert

Amerika wrote: »

Dazzling... So the letter that was sent to President Obama asking for clarification on the use of deferred action or parole for illegal aliens, signed by Sens. Grassley, Hatch (R-Utah), Vitter (R-La.), Bunning (R-Ky.), Chambliss (R-Ga.), Isakson (R-Ga.), Inhofe (R-Okla.), and Cochran (R-Miss.) is also just something from a “wacky” website? Ad-Hominem attacks are very unbecoming... or is that the only arguments Progressives are left with?

Yes wacky websites that are not moderate.

Isnt all this rheoric about the border very 2005 anyway?

Amerika

rovert wrote: »

Isnt all this rheoric about the border very 2005 anyway?

History problems? Where have you been, it's all the rage in 2010? Next you'll be telling me the Irish didn't discover America in the 6th century.

rovert

Amerika wrote: »

History problems? Where have you been, it's all the rage in 2010? Next you'll be telling me the Irish didn't discover America in the 6th century.

What are you talking about?

Amerika

rovert wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Well Arizona’s recent illegal alien law if you are questioning that.

If you are questioning the other, well Mystery Hill and other such sites across a 100 mile radius in New England exists that recent technological investigation indicates Irish monks (the Culdees) were most probably here in the 6th Century. The rocks on which the Celtic carvings (and old form of lines which make up Celtic words) are of the type of which cannot be carbon dated, but charcoal from hearths of Irish type rock dwellings built there indicate the time frame is during the time of Saint Brendan (you’ve heard of him and his story I gather). I recently watched a fascinating document here on the History Channel about it called “Who Really Discovered America.” They offer several alternatives earlier to the Vikings and Christopher Columbus, but the Irish segment has the most hard evidence and is the most convincing. Truly amazing piece that I will have to record when it is replayed. I will provide links from some research I did if you wish a little later, I just don’t have any of the data on this computer.

rovert

Ill ask again what are you talking about?

Amerika

rovert wrote: »

Ill ask again what are you talking about?

I guess I don't understand your question then, please be less cryptic. The talk about illegal aliens is far more prevalent in 2009 and especially in 2010 than it was in 2005.

sceptre

This thread has a topic. Kindly stick to it. Neither personal attacks nor off-topic flights into fantasy land play well on this section of boards.

/mod

LostinKildare

The minute Jon Kyl bragged that he "kicked the rest of the people out" of the Oval Office so he could lecture POTUS on responsibility, anyone with an ounce of common sense tuned him out. Sure he did. Did he sit in POTUS's chair and put his feet up on his desk too?

Then he claims that POTUS, for no reason, like a villain in a movie (HT NY magazine), confided to his political enemy a secret and incredibly damaging strategy that is completely contradicted by his actions -- increasing spending on border control, increasing the number of border control agents and intelligence agents at the border, expanding Border Enforcement Security Task Forces, beginning (for the first time ever) the screening of 100% of southbound rail shipments across the border, increasing seizures of contraband over the border, increasing deportations of criminal aliens, etc.

And yet, the rightwing noise machine praises Kyl as a man of unbesmirched integrity. Remember back in 2006 when Kyl and Lindsay Graham made up an entire fake conversation about the Detainee Treatment Act and fraudulently cited it in an amicus brief to the US Supreme Court? Their deliberate attempt to mislead the Court was discovered by Hamdan's lawyers, and SCOTUS wasn't impressed; they noted it in Hamdan v Rumsfeld. How did Kyl and Graham survive that? Dunno, Bush DOJ? Good times.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060705.html

Carcharodon

Amerika wrote: »

No, the commercial is real!

As for the language thing, yes it is sorta a joke (but one of those things where when it actually happens you say... God, I was only joking. Sort of like when Jimmy Carter was elected President). The United States does not have an official language… Yet! But some towns have made Spanish their official language. Who knows, it just might be a matter of time though. And if you live here, you already have to "Press 1 for English" when making a telephone call to government, businesses and the Democratic Party much of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aUvTUuBOo

Do you even realize how much of a bigot and racist you sound. California was part of Mexico before Amerika took control so it is only natural to have Spanish as one of the major languages.

Where as people like you seem to view speaking Spanish and Mexican people below you, other people like myself that now reside in California have taken the opportunity to learn the language and embrace it.

rovert

Carcharodon wrote: »

Do you even realize how much of a bigot and racist you sound. California was part of Mexico before Amerika took control so it is only natural to have Spanish as one of the major languages.

Where as people like you seem to view speaking Spanish and Mexican people below you, other people like myself that now reside in California have taken the opportunity to learn the language and embrace it.

But:

Overheal

Carcharodon wrote: »

Do you even realize how much of a bigot and racist you sound. California was part of Mexico before Amerika took control so it is only natural to have Spanish as one of the major languages.

Where as people like you seem to view speaking Spanish and Mexican people below you, other people like myself that now reside in California have taken the opportunity to learn the language and embrace it.

Its not that bigoted to oppose an official language.

English is not the official language of the United States. The United States has no official language.

Which is why its kind of a challenge to the USA's premise when some towns think they are better than that and choose English/Galiege/Japanese/Spanish as their 'Official' language.

Denerick

Overheal wrote: »

Its not that bigoted to oppose an official language.

English is not the official language of the United States. The United States has no official language.

Which is why its kind of a challenge to the USA's premise when some towns think they are better than that and choose English/Galiege/Japanese/Spanish as their 'Official' language.

Its the sign of an insecure body politic when it rushes to 'criminalise'* the languages of immigrants. The underlying cause beneath all of this bluster is the changing demographics of the US - within the next 50 years whites will no longer be the biggest ethnic group, and Hispanics will have the largest representation in Congress, federal and state government at all levels, the judiciary, the business world (Its already happening in many places) etc etc.

Its a bit like the hoopla of the 1850s when the nativists lost the rag about white immigrants. Good thing they weren't alive today to see millions of brown people flowing over the border. Thats what it boils down to after all, any other explanation is a platitude.

*Slight exaggeration.

Manic Moran

Its the sign of an insecure body politic when it rushes to 'criminalise'* the languages of immigrants.

You know that if any town in the US decided to make Protestantism their official religion that there would be an outcry as there is no official religion in the US. As it is, monuments showing the Ten Commandments are causing enough angst. Why should language be any different?

What is vaguely ironic about the language example is that Mexican immigration law requires the immigrant to learn Spanish.

NTM

Overheal

Where are these monuments? I wish to deface them...

Amerika

I grew up in a small manufacturing town comprised mostly of immigrants, and first or second generation immigrants, from all over eastern and western Europe, Central and South America, and Scandinavia. We were even nicknamed the Little Melting Pot of America due to the vast diversity. There was great pride in becoming an American by these people. Never was there a demand for others to recognize their native languages in public (only spoken in family households, between friends, and ethnic get-togethers). All immigrants and their children worked hard to learn to read and write English. They came to America and didn’t demand their cultures be recognized. They had pride in their culture and shared it, but never demanded rights for it. And I can't remember anyone looking down on an immigrant during that time as we were all pretty recent citizens. I guess that’s the difference from yesterdays immigrants and today’s immigrants... the GIVERS and the TAKERS.

And I can attest that the old time immigrants I speak of, hate what is happening today with the invasion from Mexico.

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

I grew up in a small manufacturing town comprised mostly of immigrants, and first or second generation immigrants, from all over eastern and western Europe, Central and South America, and Scandinavia. We were even nicknamed the Little Melting Pot of America due to the vast diversity. There was great pride in becoming an American by these people. Never was there a demand for others to recognize their native languages in public (only spoken in family households, between friends, and ethnic get-togethers). All immigrants and their children worked hard to learn to read and write English. They came to America and didn’t demand their cultures be recognized. They had pride in their culture and shared it, but never demanded rights for it. And I can't remember anyone looking down on an immigrant during that time as we were all pretty recent citizens. I guess that’s the difference from yesterdays immigrants and today’s immigrants... the GIVERS and the TAKERS.

And I can attest that the old time immigrants I speak of, hate what is happening today with the invasion from Mexico.

I think you may have an overly rosy view of white immigration to the US. By and large from around 1830 immigrants came to America and formed their own communities. You could travel hundreds of miles in the old American west and hear nothing but Swedish and German. The immigration you grew up with was relatively miniscule - the current immigration is on a scale with the 19th century, when by and large immigrants spoke their own languages in their own city boroughs and towns.

Amerika

No overly rosy view... actual first hand knowledge. We also had numerous “non-whites” from central and south America and some from Asia. Just telling you the way things were (where I grew up)... and how they should be.

(Just had nasty flashbacks to some of the worst tasting ethnic foods when staying over for dinners at friends houses :eek:)

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

No overly rosy view... actual first hand knowledge. We also had numerous “non-whites” from central and south America and some from Asia. Just telling you the way things were (where I grew up)... and how they should be.

(Just had nasty flashbacks to some of the worst tasting ethnic foods when staying over for dinners at friends houses :eek:)

:I find that interesting then, since every wave of immigrants dating back to the very first wave (And up until the 1920s tightening) generally spoke their own languages and maintained the trappings of their own culture. Its only relatively recently (the last 50 years) That the barriers between the various white cultures have fallen down.

Overheal

Denerick wrote: »

I think you may have an overly rosy view of white immigration to the US. By and large from around 1830 immigrants came to America and formed their own communities. You could travel hundreds of miles in the old American west and hear nothing but Swedish and German. The immigration you grew up with was relatively miniscule - the current immigration is on a scale with the 19th century, when by and large immigrants spoke their own languages in their own city boroughs and towns.

But in the 19th century how many city buroughs and towns established their own primary language?

You still hear a lot of Cantonese in Chinatown NYC but its not an official language.

Denerick

Overheal wrote: »

But in the 19th century how many city buroughs and towns established their own primary language?

You still hear a lot of Cantonese in Chinatown NYC but its not an official language.

I'm not aware of Mexicans struggling to attain official status for their language. As far as I know the US has no official language. But I don't think its unreasonable for... say a hospital in a majority latino area to use both Spanish and English in the intercom. If its a matter of life and death, I don't understand the problem.

Again, I'd like to emphasise my believe that the present insecurity mimics the insecurity of the 'know-nothings' of the mid 19th century. If there is one positive aspect of America, its that the majority come round to liking the place, immigrant or not.

Overheal

Denerick wrote: »

I'm not aware of Mexicans struggling to attain official status for their language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aUvTUuBOo

disclaimer: The Bald Pundit is an idiot.

But I don't think its unreasonable for... say a hospital in a majority latino area to use both Spanish and English in the intercom. If its a matter of life and death, I don't understand the problem.

Thats already the case and of course I do not see a problem with it. Or with Police officers knowing german/spanish/french based upon the public they serve.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Thats already the case and of course I do not see a problem with it.

I do! How can you expect to become united... if you can't even communicate?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

I do! How can you expect to become united... if you can't even communicate?

Lets sort that out when someone isnt bleeding out in an ER or having their home broken into.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Lets sort that out when someone isnt bleeding out in an ER or having their home broken into.

Don't get me started. On numerous, and I repeat numerous times, I have had to sit with family members bleeding and in need of stitches, in emergency rooms for hours on end. And do you know why... becasue those without any knowledge of English suddenly know the magic two words (even when it's just a case of the sniffles) that gets them into the emergency room faster than everyone else... "CHEST PAINS"

Don't beleive me? Just go on any evening into a city emergency room waiting area and observe. You will be amazed and disgusted.

Overheal

that...really doesnt have a helluvalot to do with language though. Anybody can go into an emergency room and claim chest pains.

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

Don't get me started. On numerous, and I repeat numerous times, I have had to sit with family members bleeding and in need of stitches, in emergency rooms for hours on end. And do you know why... becasue those without any knowledge of English suddenly know the magic two words (even when it's just a case of the sniffles) that gets them into the emergency room faster than everyone else... "CHEST PAINS"

Don't beleive me? Just go on any evening into a city emergency room waiting area and observe. You will be amazed and disgusted.

Emm... Its not too hard to draw attention to somebody in imminent danger of having a heart attack. Just scream hysterically at a nearby nurse and point at your ailing relative shouting 'HEART ATTACK, HEART ATTACK' I'm sure they'll get the message.