Anti-Americanism in Ireland

Clawdeeus

Just recently I was having a conversation with my friend and he started to try and convince me that Americans were the most stupid people on Earth. He is not my only friend to hold the view, as later in the night one friend said "I hope the US tries to invade North korea and get their heads kicked in" and another "everything bad that happens in the world can be traced back to the US" (and thats a direct quote, no lie).
I didnt bother arguing, there really was no point but it got me to thinking. Its not the first time I heard the sentiment, even on the radio and certainly on boards.ie American bashing seems the norm. Notice I said American, not America, because it seems to have taken a very personal bent for people; its not a dislike of the nation, but of the people it produces, and the prejudices seem almost impervious to any evidence to the contrary. The fact most top universities are in the US is ignored or explained away by those who regard its people as "stupid", as are any technilogical advancement developed there. Even acts of charity are derided; the US response to Haitis earthquake being a case in point (although that is admittedly criticised by very politicised groups). Any evidence that supports this view is cherrypicked, and people dont even seem to notice they are doing it.
There are very few things people can say about America thats not at least partially true, but obviously this is more complex and deeper than just an observation by people. What do you think causes this reaction in Ireland? Is it merely blaming the "big dog in the yard"? Its products/culture? Its foreign policy? Or something else?

Morlar

With respect your friends are idiots. It has always been trendy on the left to criticise America for any and everything. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

nacho libre

well, don't confuse valid criticism of american foreign policy with anti-americanism.

it's to be expected when there is a huge disparity between their leaders righteous rehtoric and their actions.

anti-americanism, on the other hand, is myopic and incredibly stupid.

Gurgle

Morlar wrote: »

It has always been trendy on the left to criticise America for any and everything.

:rolleyes:
By 'any and everything', i assume you're referring to the GWB Administration's foreign policy?

@OP, that concept of americans as a nation of brain-dead war mongers is only prevalent among Irish / European brain-dead hate mongers. I think most enlightened people recognize that people are just people and aren't truly represented by their political or religious leaders.

Morlar

Gurgle wrote: »

rolleyes:
By 'any and everything', i assume you're referring to the GWB Administration's foreign policy?

Do you really think that is the only area for which the usa are criticised?

If so then your assumptions about what I said must be correct.

Gurgle

Morlar wrote: »

Do you really think that is the only area for which the usa are criticised?

If so then your assumptions about what I said must be correct.

No, my comment was an objection to your assumption that anti-americans in Ireland are left wing hippies. Americans invented left wing hippies.

Morlar

Gurgle wrote: »

No, my comment was an objection to your assumption that anti-americans in Ireland are left wing hippies. Americans invented left wing hippies.

I said that ;

'it has always been trendy on the left to criticise america'

- which is a fairly accurate point in my view. You can argue that's not the case if you wish

Permabear

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liah

Kind of ironic considering a good portion of the States were built on the backs of the Irish, and a ridiculous amount of born-and-bred yanks consider themselves Irish despite never setting foot in the country.

Permabear

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liah

I know an awful lot of yanks who, despite having family born in the states for about 4 or 5 generations (or more), still consider themselves 100% Irish. Usually simply for having an Irish surname. Misplaced patriotism imo. Just because I have German ancestry doesn't make me German. I'm still a Canuck.

gonnaplayrugby

we are european its our given right to look down on america.

dlofnep

Anti-Americanism is perfectly valid in a political context.

Anti-Americanism on a broad scale in a cultural context, is silly.

Karl Hungus

liah wrote: »

I know an awful lot of yanks who, despite having family born in the states for about 4 or 5 generations (or more), still consider themselves 100% Irish. Usually simply for having an Irish surname. Misplaced patriotism imo. Just because I have German ancestry doesn't make me German. I'm still a Canuck.

I don't think it's patriotism, I get the sense that it's more about considering themselves Irish from an ethnic or cultural perspective. As Donegalfella points out a lot of different groups of people put emphasis on culture and similarly plenty of Americans will consider themselves Italian despite being several generations removed from Italy. I'd say a lot of people feel the need to have a cultural identity in a nation that is comparatively pretty young. Another consideration is that a lot of immigrants to America would stick very closely together, have different communities.

I think a lot of people here get too wound up when an American considers themselves Irish. It probably means a lot to them as a cultural identity, but doesn't mean that they're patriotic to Ireland, or think of themselves as the same as your average Irish person today.

irishh_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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america is the most heavily marketed and media exposed country in the world , you can hardly blame people for forming opinions on what its like , despite never having been there , most irish people have never been to saudi arabia yet it would not be unreasonable to conclude that it was a regressive authoritarian place , while on the whole i believe the usa has had a possitive influence on world history and culture , i think the charge of anti americanism is made far too liberally

liah

I don't know. It just kind of gets under my skin because at the end of the day, they're pretending to be something they really aren't. Sure, they have the surname, and they probably drink in an Oirish pub with leprechauns on the walls and listen to Dropkick Murphys or something, but the majority of them probably couldn't understand an Irish accent or its expressions or know much of anything about it at all. That's hardly respecting their cultural background, most of them just do it because they think Paddy's day is awesome and they like Guinness.

Permabear

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gonnaplayrugby

ur from a nation of immigrants as well how can u not c where they are coming from!!!!!!!!!!!!!

liah

donegalfella wrote: »

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The type you talk about are a minority. I have no problem with them. It's the ones I was talking about in my previous post that wreck my head. Fair play if they try to honestly preserve it but the "Kiss me I'm Irish" types who only come out on Paddy's Day are irritating as hell.

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

ur from a nation of immigrants as well how can u not c where they are coming from!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because I don't try to pretend to be something I'm not. I appreciate my ancestry but I'm not going to pretend that I know what it's like to actually be a part of that nation, or necessarily even defend it just because my ancestors were born there. If I'm going to be patriotic about a place, it's the place I was raised, not some place I've never even seen or know nothing about.

Karl Hungus

liah wrote: »

I don't know. It just kind of gets under my skin because at the end of the day, they're pretending to be something they really aren't. Sure, they have the surname, and they probably drink in an Oirish pub with leprechauns on the walls and listen to Dropkick Murphys or something, but the majority of them probably couldn't understand an Irish accent or its expressions or know much of anything about it at all. That's hardly respecting their cultural background, most of them just do it because they think Paddy's day is awesome and they like Guinness.

Are they really pretending to be something they're not though? If I wanted to be cynical about it, Irish as a nationality is nothing more than an accident of birth, if I was born in France I would be French. So what does being Irish mean to me? Not all that much really. Don't get me wrong, I like the country, I like the people, I don't really like the government. But to some lad over in America being Irish means something to more them than it does to me, and that's fine, because quite seriously if someone places importance on their ethnic and cultural background, and I place no importance on my nationality, who's to say they're not Irish on those terms?

I remember a fella I met who was from Brazil who came to Ireland to trace his family roots, and as it turned out he had family that lived very close to me. It seemed very important to him that he discovered his family roots and meet these relatives. I don't think it's particularly fair to him to think that this is of no importance to him, that his background is any more than his last name, or just an interest in having a pint of guinness, or that he was trying to be something he's not. It was important to him that he had this cultural identity, and at no point did I think to say "Would ya feck off, yer Brazilian, g'wan back to Brazil and stop pretending yer Irish!"

I don't know, I think for a lot of people it's hard to see "Irish" as anything other than a nationality, when for some it's very much a sense of identity, an ethnicity, a culture, or perhaps more? I don't quite know myself, but it's certainly worth considering.

Overheal

liah wrote: »

I don't know. It just kind of gets under my skin because at the end of the day, they're pretending to be something they really aren't. Sure, they have the surname, and they probably drink in an Oirish pub with leprechauns on the walls and listen to Dropkick Murphys or something, but the majority of them probably couldn't understand an Irish accent or its expressions or know much of anything about it at all. That's hardly respecting their cultural background, most of them just do it because they think Paddy's day is awesome and they like Guinness.

Ah, so you're upset that people who have never been to Ireland get the wrong idea and run with it.

That goes around.

liah

Overheal wrote: »

Ah, so you're upset that people who have never been to Ireland get the wrong idea and run with it.

That goes around.

That a dig?

And Karl, in my previous post (right before this one) I stated I've no problem whatsoever with people trying to honestly keep Irish tradition and culture. Fair play to them. But those ones are the minority. I've said all this before.

Nodin

...there's some people lived here all there lives that have a concept of Ireland that bears no relation to the reality whatsoever.....

Anyhoo, American FP gets criticised because (a) we beg to differ and (b) painting yourself the 'defender of the free world' means backing some dodgy El Generale will create stark constrasts between the hype and the reality.

danbohan

donegalfella wrote: »

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having spent many years living in US , i consider many irish americans to be a hell of a lot more irish and patriotic to ireland than a lot of the so called celtic tiger cubs that inhabit thease boards

looksee

liah wrote: »

The type you talk about are a minority. I have no problem with them. It's the ones I was talking about in my previous post that wreck my head. Fair play if they try to honestly preserve it but the "Kiss me I'm Irish" types who only come out on Paddy's Day are irritating as hell.

I don't see the problem, at best its a compliment, at worst its bringing dollars into the country. And there are plenty of Irish people who do the whole Paddy's day thing as well as foreigners - look at any away football crowd. How many Irish people 'honestly try' to preserve Irish culture - how many would voluntarily learn Irish if they did not have to?

Denerick

I typed a big long justificatory post, but decided to destroy it and replace it with this. Yes, most Americans are objectionable. Even from the way they speak, to the way they deal with problems, their casual ignorance, their huffed up sense of self importance - truly, they must have some of the most un-virtuous citizenry in the western world. Anti-American - I suppose. There's no point in denying it any longer.

Pauleta

As George W Bush once said "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists". These left wing wierdos are clearly with the terrorists and the axis of evil. Hopefully they grow out of it like the rest of the civilised world.

INSCOPE

What I'd like to know is how many of you have family that emigrated to the US? I'm American and living here in Ireland for 11 years. I've had quite a few knobheads make anti-American comments to me. I have to say though, it was a lot worse when I lived in the UK. But 90% of the Irish are normal enlightened people. Same goes for Americans.

Valmont

I worked in a gift shop in Alaska for nine months serving hundreds of elderly American tourists every day. I often stopped and talked if I had the time and I was amazed at how many of these Americans had visited Ireland at some point in their lives, whether they had Irish ancestry or not. Conversely, I wonder if these Irish people proclaiming that all "Americans are stupid" have taken the time to visit the states and really absorb some cultural understanding. Americans really are a multiplicitous people. From Maine to Arizona to Louisiana to Buffalo, you would really have to try to find a more diverse bunch. America is just like everywhere else, they have stupid people and smart people and everything in between. It really annoys me hearing generalisations that are supposed to accurately portray 300 million people.

Personally, I blame Michael Moore.

looksee

Denerick wrote: »

I typed a big long justificatory post, but decided to destroy it and replace it with this. Yes, most Americans are objectionable. Even from the way they speak, to the way they deal with problems, their casual ignorance, their huffed up sense of self importance - truly, they must have some of the most un-virtuous citizenry in the western world. Anti-American - I suppose. There's no point in denying it any longer.

You do realise that its you that has the problem, not them. And you are in a position to do something about that.

Mrmoe

I do not think anti-Americanism is rampant in this country. If you look at the amount of American culture that is prevalent here it shows that over all we quite like them. It is OK to criticize their foreign policies but that is only one aspect of a broad spectrum. I do not think we are any more anti-American than we are anti-French or anti-Australian or any other country for that matter. I think a lot of Irish people are proud of the role that Irish people played in American history.

AARRRGH

Americans as individuals tend to be nice people. I can understand why some people think Americans are thick though because they tend to be a lot more naive than Europeans, and know less about the world. But on the other hand they tend to be much better at commerce and in my experience are extremely literate.

My only problem with the US is their foreign policy and their pretence that it is for a good cause. For decades the US has been ****ing with the world. It really makes me laugh/angry that they claim countries like North Korea/Iran/etc. are evil yet the US are the ones invading countries and are probably directly and indirectly responsible for millions of deaths over the past few decades.

But I like Americans. And I don't think most Irish people are anti-American. Yes, they might slag Americans for being fat but they probably slag the Irish for being alcs.

dublinlawless

Pauleta wrote: »

As George W Bush once said "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists". These left wing wierdos are clearly with the terrorists and the axis of evil. Hopefully they grow out of it like the rest of the civilised world.

Al Qaida are left wing? Here was I thinkng the mujahadeen(with american weaponry) drove the communist soviet union out of Afghanistan! George Bush is the civilized world? Here was I thinking starting two wars and killling millions made you uncivilised! Must be all that stupid left wing rhetoric going around!

prinz

There is definitely an under current of anti-Americanism that raises an ugly head every so often. It's often ironic given that the same people tend to be largely ignorant of American people, American culture (other than TV and Hollywood) and what the US actually does in the world. I'm not going to pretend that the US is perfect, or blameless through history, but to see morons attempting to slag off the US when they have no idea of what people like Hussein's regime and the Taliban were getting up to, or can conviently wave any and all abuses and mass murder under the carpet is astonishing at times.

AARRRGH

prinz wrote: »

but to see morons attempting to slag off the US when they have no idea of what people like Hussein's regime and the Taliban were getting up to

Wha...?

Do you think the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with how ruthless his regime was?

You do realise the US used to love the Taliban until they weren't politically important any more, right? And that includes not giving a damn what they were "getting up to"?

Seriously, you need to educate yourself. The US's foreign actions are 100% selfish and have nothing to do with being a good guy.

prinz

AARRRGH wrote: »

Seriously, you need to educate yourself..

I need to educate myself, why exactly? I am not going to blindly criticise one country's actions and ignore those of another. Neither am I going to blame one country for the actions of previous rulers or hold them to same standards.

AARRRGH

prinz wrote: »

I need to educate myself, why exactly? I am not going to blindly criticise one country's actions and ignore those of another. Neither am I going to blame one country for the actions of previous rulers or hold them to same standards.

But we're talking about the US. You are allowed criticise the US's foreign policy in a thread about it.

Using your logic, we shouldn't criticise any criminals because, you know, there are other criminals we could talk about too.

karma_

prinz wrote: »

I need to educate myself, why exactly? I am not going to blindly criticise one country's actions and ignore those of another. Neither am I going to blame one country for the actions of previous rulers or hold them to same standards.

You are a total hypocrite. On many threads you have criticised the Palestinian Territories and refused to criticise Israel's actions.

prinz

karma_ wrote: »

You are a total hypocrite. On many threads you have criticised the Palestinian Territories and refused to criticise Israel's actions.

I have criticised Israel when criticism is due. As I have said on those same threads is that I have boycotted Israeli goods in so far as is practical. Have done for years.

Clawdeeus

Is there any country that isnt 100% selfish in its foreign policy? In the end, is that not the very aim of foreign policy, to further their own citizens interests?

To say the regime of Iraq had nothing to do with the invasion is also, to use your own word, naive, it is extremly doubtful any invasion would have taken place had it been a democracy, for instance.

Well this idea of cherry picking American culture or behaviour to reinforce their opinion of Americans, I would argue is the very defnition of a prejudice, resistant to proof, examples to the contrary or rational argument.

It sometimes, I find, can be used as a watermark for someones world view; the vast majority of people who would be vocally anti-American I'm willing to bet I could tell them what their opinion is regarding Israel, Venezuela, (how to react to) global warming, social policy, where they sit on the left-right spectrum, if they are moral relativist or not. This may not be everyones experience, however this indicates to me that Anti-Americanism is almost always part of a wider ideology. I don't want to jump the gun, but that usually means their views are not individually tought through, merely processed in such a way that it slots into their paradigm.


And @ Denerick, that says more about you than it does about Americans I'm afraid.

liah

Americans are a "nice people?" Maybe if they're over the age of 35, and if you're Irish.. Try being a Canadian. Hardly nice.

nacho libre

prinz wrote: »

, but to see morons attempting to slag off the US when they have no idea of what people like Hussein's regime and the Taliban were getting up to, or can conviently wave any and all abuses and mass murder under the carpet is astonishing at times.

the projection here is interesting. isn't this what you and donegalfella effectively do when you overlook this:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thanks+for+the+memories-+saddam&aq=f

Pauleta

dublinlawless wrote: »

Al Qaida are left wing? Here was I thinkng the mujahadeen(with american weaponry) drove the communist soviet union out of Afghanistan! George Bush is the civilized world? Here was I thinking starting two wars and killling millions made you uncivilised! Must be all that stupid left wing rhetoric going around!

Nope. You dont get aa conservative as Al Qaida but but the people who are deemed anti American in Ireland usually have extremist left wing tendencies. Which is hypocritical when they try to justify everything Islamic. I think the Anti-American movement in Ireland stems to the fact these people have personal issues with power and authority figures.

AARRRGH

Clawdeeus wrote: »

Is there any country that isnt 100% selfish in its foreign policy? In the end, is that not the very aim of foreign policy, to further their own citizens interests?

Yes, but there's a big difference between looking after your own citizens interests and invading countries/toppling governments/giving weapons to insurgents/etc.

When GWB made his "axis of evil" statement I couldn't help but laugh. Without a doubt, the US and Israel out-evil the axis of evil without breaking a sweat.

Hazys

I think anybody who tries to classify the stereotypical american in any way has already lost the argument.

The United States of America is a vast continent (not country) of over 300 million people who live in totally different climates, economies, speak different languages, are of different races, follow different religions, etc. Its like comparing Ireland to Turkey.

If i was to classify americans based on where i live, Cambridge, Massachusetts, the stereotype wouldn't be of a dumb, ignorant, fat, gun loving, gay hating american.

My house is within 15 minutes walk of MIT and Harvard, so there goes the first stereotype. The majority of the people i meet are extremely well travelled with the US and on many continents, there goes ignorance. As for fat, Massachussetts has half the obesity rates of Ireland and a third of the US overall. Guns are illegal without a hunting license. Gay marriage is legal.

The stereotype of the American will vary from the one in a one horse town in the back beyonds of Alabama somewhere, or in LA or in Dallas, or in Hawaii. But there is no such thing as a stereotypical american.

AARRRGH

Hazys wrote: »

The United States of America is a vast continent (not country)

Eh, no it's not!

Hazys

AARRRGH wrote: »

Eh, no it's not!

Great contribution to the thread.

Eve_Dublin

Hazys wrote: »

Great contribution to the thread.

The United States of America is a (albeit very large) country that´s part of a vast continent. United States of America is a country, not a continent. North America includes Canada and South/Central America, the US and Canada can be counted as one continent.

I´ve come across an anti-American feeling in all European countries. I live in Spain and almost every single person I spoke to about this topic has expressed their dislike for the US but this hasn´t been my experience back home. I don´t agree with them because 3 of my siblings have lived in the country for over 10 years, my sister is married to one and I´ve loads of aunties, cousins, uncles etc in the States and I essentially love the place. I´ve always found them to be very friendly, sometimes bordering on false but I´ll take that over a surly Parisian any day of the week. At least they make an effort.

But IN MY EXPERIENCE, they can have their facts about world Geography and facts and Politics astonishingly garbled and that leaves me a little dumbfounded on occasion. Met a girl only 2 weeks ago who insisted she saw a leprechaun at the Blarney Stone when she visited...when I politely challenged her, she admitted that yeah, it was probably just a very small man (a dwarf perhaps?). What do you say to that?

Bill2673

Anti-americanism is not a new thing. Please see below the lyrics from Randy Newman's song political science, written in 1972.

One thing I learned from travelling is that you can't generalize about nationalities....eg All Germans lack a sense of humour......its rubbish.....the irish are alcoholics....etc etc.....

Anyone who believes in generalizations, e.g. all americans are stupid, or fat...etc....its just rubbish and anyone who believes that is naive, or possibly looking for a way to vent some anger.

POLITICAL SCIENCE
No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try.
But all around even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.

We give them money
But are they grateful?
No they're spiteful
And they're hateful.
They don't respect us so let's surprise them;
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.

Now Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot,
And Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name.
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us.

Bridge:
We'll save Australia;
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo.
We'll build an all-American amusement park there;
They've got surfing, too.

Well, boom goes London,
And boom Paris.
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be;
We'll set everybody free;
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby,
There'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.

Bill2673

As an addendum: I was travelling in Pakistan a few years back and was invited in to the family home for a cup of tea by a bunch of brothers. In the early part of the conversation they went on a rant about George Bush (the first) and the USA in general (this was pre-Dubya)......later in the conversation, they told me they were saving their money, had saved three thousand dollars no less, and were hoping to move abroad.

Where did they want to go?

America (and I don't think they meant Peru).

invinciblePRSTV

I've always found people who throw the charge of anti-Americanism around the most are those most in thrall to the politics, politicians and popular ideologies which have emanated out of the US.