Triathlon - Improving cycling time

,mnb

I have done 2 sprint triathlons so far. Will do at least 2 this Summer.
I was doing 44 mins on the bike last year. When I go out and practise on a relatively flat surface I find it hard to beat that.
Any tips for how I can get this down.
Will tri bars help. I have them but they havent made a huge difference. My bike is pretty good - Focus Cayo. Im not sure the fitting exactly suits me. I have a dodgy back and feel like I'm overstretching at times. That said I practise my swimming much more than cycling cause cycling takes so much longer. Should I go for some heavy mountain runs to strengthen up. Is it just a matter of time.

kingQuez

+1. I don't seem to be getting faster, just able to stay on the saddle longer. What sort of structure would you put on mid-week training to try and get things looking better?

connundrum

I am purely a beginner - haven't even done a Tri yet. Started cycling at the beginning of May, and have found that I'm able to keep a relatively constant pace of 2min 40seconds per km over a 20km spin. Haven't tried 'racing' myself yet, but would obviously need to get that pace down to around 2mins per km.

Advice is welcome, but I presume one bit of advice will include sprint sections on a routine spin i.e. Cycle at normal pace for 4kms, sprint for 500m/1km. The overall objective being to get it to 1km normal pace : 1km sprint or something similar.

thepassanger

im not a good cyclist but two training types i use are:
do sets of 15seconds at 80% effort and then use 45 seconds rest COMPLETE TEN TIMES, rest for 5-6 mins then do a few more times. "(takes time and considerable thought to gauge,,,,,,,,, check out 'BLORG' scale or 'RPE' (rates of perceived effort)"
the other training is trying to keep a difficult but not full effort pace for a 50km+ ride,
rest is most important to help you get on 'form' which can happen lots during the year, peaking is a different story.

NeedsTraining

Guys,

I am no expert and I am sure more people will come on here later with better information, but here is my 2 cents worth.

I am a relative newbie to tri's also. This year is my first year doing sprint distance. I attempted super sprint distances last year.
I have managed to get my 20km time down from 42 mins to 34 mins over the course of the last year. How?
Well, its a combination of long spins, tempo spins and interval training. I have adopted the same approach to my cycle training as I have to my run training and it has worked for me. I do my long spins at the weekend, anything from 50km upwards and tempo and interval work midweek. I started doing interval work between roundabouts in my estate and gradually built up that way. Suggest taking a stretch of road and going at 80/85% of your max for 1km, then 'rest' for 500m, 80/85% for 1km etc etc. My tempo ride, I go at 80% for 80% of the ride.
Tri bars will help, a good bike will help, but only if the bike fit is correct. I would advise going to your local bikeshop and asking them to fit you correctly on the bike if you think it is not set up right for you.

It will take a lot of training and effort to get your times down, but it is achievable with the right approach.

Best of luck with your training and we may meet on the start line some day.

Cheers,

NT

longshank

NeedsTraining wrote: »

Guys,

I am no expert and I am sure more people will come on here later with better information, but here is my 2 cents worth.

I am a relative newbie to tri's also. This year is my first year doing sprint distance. I attempted super sprint distances last year.
I have managed to get my 20km time down from 42 mins to 34 mins over the course of the last year. How?
Well, its a combination of long spins, tempo spins and interval training. I have adopted the same approach to my cycle training as I have to my run training and it has worked for me. I do my long spins at the weekend, anything from 50km upwards and tempo and interval work midweek. I started doing interval work between roundabouts in my estate and gradually built up that way. Suggest taking a stretch of road and going at 80/85% of your max for 1km, then 'rest' for 500m, 80/85% for 1km etc etc. My tempo ride, I go at 80% for 80% of the ride.
Tri bars will help, a good bike will help, but only if the bike fit is correct. I would advise going to your local bikeshop and asking them to fit you correctly on the bike if you think it is not set up right for you.

It will take a lot of training and effort to get your times down, but it is achievable with the right approach.

Best of luck with your training and we may meet on the start line some day.

Cheers,

NT

+1 i went from 42 to 33 mins by doing much the same, every week try to get one long cycle, one hill reps and one flat out timetrial. Also started cycling with a group which helps massively

toomuchdetail

longshank wrote: »

+1 i went from 42 to 33 mins by doing much the same, every week try to get one long cycle, one hill reps and one flat out timetrial. Also started cycling with a group which helps massively

longshank/Needstraining :some improvements there and well done on it,agree on your plan as a very exp cyclist advised me the same recently , just dipping below 40mins now myslef from 45m last year for 20k,
Some general questions :
Do you guys have a particular schedule you follow for the bike ?
Would you scarfice a run session for a bike session mid week of just add a 2-3km brick onto it ( time tied so trying to get the most out of sessions).
Are doing time trials with a club an advantage ?
What about cadence ?(got all the gadgets for the bike but there useless if you dont know what to do with them!!)
Have big problems deciding on what gear to travel in -big cogs and burn the legs out but gain some speed with 70-80 cadance, mid size cog and go for cadence of 90-100 ?

Thanks in advance.

longshank

toomuchdetail wrote: »

longshank/Needstraining :some improvements there and well done on it,agree on your plan as a very exp cyclist advised me the same recently , just dipping below 40mins now myslef from 45m last year for 20k,
Some general questions :
Do you guys have a particular schedule you follow for the bike ?
Would you scarfice a run session for a bike session mid week of just add a 2-3km brick onto it ( time tied so trying to get the most out of sessions).
Are doing time trials with a club an advantage ?
What about cadence ?(got all the gadgets for the bike but there useless if you dont know what to do with them!!)
Have big problems deciding on what gear to travel in -big cogs and burn the legs out but gain some speed with 70-80 cadance, mid size cog and go for cadence of 90-100 ?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not an expert just lucky to train with a few but told the right cadence is about 90 to 100. Avg just below 90 now but is increasing all the time and can manage it in a higher gear hence am going faster. I do mix using a high gear for strength and low gear high cadence for speed as you need to improve both together.
I would only sacrifice a run if it is stronger than your bike but bricks are a good compromise i think when time is tight.

tunney

,mnb wrote: »

I have done 2 sprint triathlons so far. Will do at least 2 this Summer.
I was doing 44 mins on the bike last year. When I go out and practise on a relatively flat surface I find it hard to beat that.
Any tips for how I can get this down.
Will tri bars help. I have them but they havent made a huge difference. My bike is pretty good - Focus Cayo. Im not sure the fitting exactly suits me. I have a dodgy back and feel like I'm overstretching at times. That said I practise my swimming much more than cycling cause cycling takes so much longer. Should I go for some heavy mountain runs to strengthen up. Is it just a matter of time.

"When I go out and practise on a relatively flat surface I find it hard to beat that."

Then don't try Not being smart but continous race simulations are not necessarily the best for improvement. At most a testing session of this nature should be done once a month.

Regarding the bike, tri bars and fit. Tri bars can make an absolutely huge difference. In fact they should. If the don't you are right to question the fit.

You don't really give any background or the level of training you are at or the amount and type of winter and spring training you have done so its impossible to say what your limiters are and then to say how best to address them.

tunney

kingQuez wrote: »

+1. I don't seem to be getting faster, just able to stay on the saddle longer. What sort of structure would you put on mid-week training to try and get things looking better?

Again - context required. How much training have you done this year, and what type, and what are your goals? What do you feel your limiters are?

tunney

longshank wrote: »

I'm not an expert just lucky to train with a few but told the right cadence is about 90 to 100.

This is a very popular misconception.

The right cadence is different for everyone. Some spin happily at 110rpm, some at 75rpm. Depends on your muscle fibre types, training, race distance and much much more. There are many many tests out there to find the optimal cadence for a person.

longshank

tunney wrote: »

This is a very popular misconception.

The right cadence is different for everyone. Some spin happily at 110rpm, some at 75rpm. Depends on your muscle fibre types, training, race distance and much much more. There are many many tests out there to find the optimal cadence for a person.

There are various theories for everything especially in fitness, but one very obvious difference I notice between good cyclists and beginner cyclists is the higher cadence of good cyclists. Which came first the chicken or the egg is not for me to say! I can only say that working on upping my cadence worked for me.

boccy23

Thanks MNB for the thread and others for the replies. Will definitely try some of these. Also take 42-44 mins for the 20Km.
One thing I would add is what a friend of mine who cycles a lot, races twice or three times a week and has done for 20+ years said to me:

- Spin the gears and use them. Hence he was saying keep the cadence high and use the gears instead of trying hard to push bigger gears. This also aids the transition to the run.
- Ignore the idea of timing your training cycles. Bike fitness is all about putting the work in on the bike, i.e. longer spins are necessary where you build up the cycling muscles. Also, wind conditionds change, road conditions change, you feel different. So you could be comparing apples and oranges by looking at the same 20km run on different days.

I have used these and have taken 3-4 mins off 20km time.

But will also try some of the intervals as suggested above.

tunney

longshank wrote: »

There are various theories for everything especially in fitness, but one very obvious difference I notice between good cyclists and beginner cyclists is the higher cadence of good cyclists. Which came first the chicken or the egg is not for me to say! I can only say that working on upping my cadence worked for me.

In cycling the obvious example that contradicts the above is Jan the man Ulrich. Or about 50% of the riders in Tuesdays TT in the Giro.

In triathlon - look at Chrissie Wellington or any of the TBB people. mainly all in the 80s.

In local triathlon - look at the uber bikers from the border regions - cadences in the 80s (albeit high 80s).

Gringo78

tunney wrote: »

In cycling the obvious example that contradicts the above is Jan the man Ulrich. Or about 50% of the riders in Tuesdays TT in the Giro.

In triathlon - look at Chrissie Wellington or any of the TBB people. mainly all in the 80s.

In local triathlon - look at the uber bikers from the border regions - cadences in the 80s (albeit high 80s).

So are you saying you should accept the cadence you kind of naturally fall into as being the suitable cadence for you? Or is there a way of telling if theres a more optimal cadence for you? I've only recently started on the gym bike and find I'm always spinning at 100-105rpm regardless of the resistance (obviously if the resistance is too much, I start to fade).

Also, is there any correlation between my HR at FTP on the bike and my HR at LT pace running? I'm thinking that they should probably not be the same, that the bike one would be lower. Are HR's on the bike generally lower than that running? i.e if I can sustain a HR of 172 running for an hour, should I also be able to sustain 172 on the bike for an hour?

tunney

Gringo78 wrote: »

So are you saying you should accept the cadence you kind of naturally fall into as being the suitable cadence for you? Or is there a way of telling if theres a more optimal cadence for you? I've only recently started on the gym bike and find I'm always spinning at 100-105rpm regardless of the resistance (obviously if the resistance is too much, I start to fade).

There are tests to figure it out, different ones depending on the equipment available to you.

Gringo78 wrote: »

Also, is there any correlation between my HR at FTP on the bike and my HR at LT pace running? I'm thinking that they should probably not be the same, that the bike one would be lower. Are HR's on the bike generally lower than that running? i.e if I can sustain a HR of 172 running for an hour, should I also be able to sustain 172 on the bike for an hour?

HRs I think are lower on bike. But that is for N=1.

longshank

tunney wrote: »

In cycling the obvious example that contradicts the above is Jan the man Ulrich. Or about 50% of the riders in Tuesdays TT in the Giro.

In triathlon - look at Chrissie Wellington or any of the TBB people. mainly all in the 80s.

In local triathlon - look at the uber bikers from the border regions - cadences in the 80s (albeit high 80s).

I don't disagree but as said earlier context is probably required. For an experienced cyclists upping cadence might not mean improvement but for most beginners keeping cadence above 80 would be difficult. Aiming to up cadence definitely helped me improve and I seem to have leveled out in high 80's, which maybe is my natural rate?

911sc

tunney wrote: »

Tri bars can make an absolutely huge difference. In fact they should. If the don't you are right to question the fit.

I have always wonder from what speed (relative to wind speed) do tri bars start to make a difference?