Road Traffic fine from Italy after 1 year

Darsad

I have received today a road traffic fine for € 120 from italy :mad: for apparantly circulating a vehicle in a limited traffic area without authorisation. Funny thing is it was last june when I was in Italy and rented a car just shy of one year.Its apparantly a notification of their intention to prosecute if i dont pay up within 21 days. Anybody ever receive similar notification from Italy and what did you do !

kasper

tell them mr gotti gave you athourisation

mondeo

Tell them to show you proof of this other then what their telling you or get stuffed!

Actually tell them to get stuffed full stop....

I wouldn't pay it anyways

DublinWriter

Write back to them in Irish, informing them that tà darsad ina chodladh leis na iascaì and that all further communiction should be addressed to your solicitor, Messrs Sean Fitzpatrick and Company, c/o Cell 31, A-Wing, Mountjoy Prison, Dublin,

stealthyspeeder

I got two in Italy 3 years ago (going though two red lights, same empty junction same night, no flash yet perfect picture wierd but another topic) car was my ex girlfriends so I had to cough up

Anan1

They must have been given your details by the car rental company - i'd check their t&cs.

argosy2006

Tell them u will pay when the tower in pisa is straightened

corktina

They will bill the hire company who will bill you, so you may as well pay up.No doubt the Hire Co have your credit card details and their T&C will I imagine allow them to just deduct the fine PLUS expenses.

Its not as if you are claiming you didnt do it is it!

cc

or you could just pay your fine and get on with it

zefer

Darsad wrote: »

I have received today a road traffic fine for € 120 from italy :mad: for apparantly circulating a vehicle in a limited traffic area without authorisation. Funny thing is it was last june when I was in Italy and rented a car just shy of one year.Its apparantly a notification of their intention to prosecute if i dont pay up within 21 days. Anybody ever receive similar notification from Italy and what did you do !

I got the exact same letter about a month ago but when I looked into it further it was for "driving on a road that is for use by residents only at certain times of the day... " Asking me to log into a website with a u/p that they provided..Letter got dumped in the bin.

Did you change credit cards in the last year? I did and I think thats why they couldnt just take it from your cc..

Berty

The car rental company may charge your credit card a processing fee every time they get a letter. It happened to my brother, from an Australian fine, and he didn't bother paying it. He got 4 letters. $25AUD per letter imposed on his credit card and that was before the fine was even paid.

If your rental company doesn't do this then STUFF THE FINE.

eringobragh

Berty wrote: »

The car rental company may charge your credit card a processing fee every time they get a letter. It happened to my brother, from an Australian fine, and he didn't bother paying it. He got 4 letters. $25AUD per letter imposed on his credit card and that was before the fine was even paid.

If your rental company doesn't do this then STUFF THE FINE.

Easy solution..Cancel your Credit Card you'll have a new one within the week.

Oh and place fine here: (save the trees!)

Mr. Presentable

All of this advice is fine so long as you never get stopped by the Police in Italy for a traffic offense. I'd pay it because I'd like to go back some day.

The fine has not come from the rental co, so they have passed your details on to the Police or Authority

Similar story. Shocking how much they make.

http://www.examiner.com/x-26666-European-Travel-Examiner~y2010m4d2-Siena-Italythanks-for-visiting-heres-a-150-traffic-ticket

keithclancy

eringobragh wrote: »

Easy solution..Cancel your Credit Card you'll have a new one within the week.

Oh and place fine here: (save the trees!)

That doesn't work, pre authorised transactions still come off the old card number and will be billed to your new card (I have verified it myself)

@OP: Its up to you, but I wouldn't bother, i.e. I never recieved it, they'll either bill via the rental company or they won't.

eringobragh

nipplenuts wrote: »

All of this advice is fine so long as you never get stopped by the Police in Italy for a traffic offense. I'd pay it because I'd like to go back some day.

The fine has not come from the rental co, so they have passed your details on to the Police or Authority

If the letter got lost in the post it would have the same outcome, fine goes unpaid...so that the angle I'd be edging at. The postal service is far from infallible!

privateBeavis

Yeah I fine like this few years back after renting car there. First I got a letter about 5 months after the holiday from the car rental company charging me €48 as a processing fee (i.e. they charged me €48 for passing on my details to the police!!). Then about a year after the holiday I got a letter looking for the actual fine itself (another €110 :eek:).
Anyways you just get directed to some website that they set up for collecting money for fines from tourists!
I did the crime so paid the fine, (although never quite sure what the crime was, something to do with being on a road I shouldn't have been at a certain time or something!!)

eringobragh

keithclancy wrote: »

That doesn't work, pre authorised transactions still come off the old card number and will be billed to your new card (I have verified it myself)

@OP: Its up to you, but I wouldn't bother, i.e. I never recieved it, they'll either bill via the rental company or they won't.

hmm never heard of that before but I'll take your word on that, I

remember having a pre-auth for the damage waiver, etc surely can't authorise the transaction years later?

Mr. Presentable

The thing is, it'll be on at least two databases; the police and rental company. So you might have a problem renting from Avis or whoever, and they are worldwide, in the future. If the police were to pull you for something there might be repercussions. The t&cs almost certainly included your liability for fines accrued - and you signed them.

I wonder if the rental co have applied a service charge to your credit card for forwarding your details to the cops.......

the_syco

Google the website to ensure it isn't a scam website. There was a scam last year that charged you money, but wasn't from anybody official.

Darsad

From what I can see its not a scam and having done a little research this would appear to be a massive revenue generator for various Italian city coffers.Florecnce a city of 380,000 people had € 52 million worth of road traffic fines in 2008. The internet if full of disgruntled tourists who got fines in the post from Italy a year after their visit.

Saruman

You can add me to that list as of today. €42 on the credit card from the car rental company as an administration fee but I am sure that is not including the fine. This happened over a year ago. The date is 30/9/2009 and I believe there is a 1 year limit in Italy.
I have no idea what the fine is. The florence police just sent me a letter all in Italian and I have no idea what it says other than it looks like I was in a restricted area for residents.

Thing is, I did not drive anywhere in Florence. I drove to hotel, parked in the car park and did not use the car again until the day I left the hotel.
I know there might be am exemption if you can prove you were staying at the hotel but I don't even know what to do as everything is in Italian on the letter.
Madness.

quad_red

I just got hit with a fine from Pisa last year.

Went to my folks house who are now all upset and worried because it says if it's not paid in 12 days it will be passed to a debt collection agency.

I swear, I'm never going to Italy again. We were done by the car rental agency when we arrived (pre paid with Budget, they had no cars but promised to refund, were forced to go last minute with Avis who ****ed us royally, Budget then of course refused to refund any money).

And now this. It is for driving through a restricted area. What the hell does that mean? I'm a careful driver. I wouldn't drive down one way streets etc.

gyppo

I got a traffic fine from Italy some time ago (2008), and was charged 60E by the carhire company to pass on my details to the italian police.

My fine apparently was for running a red light - maybe I did do it, if I did I certainly don't remember doing it.

Anyhow, I never paid it (as an italian Post Office was a bit of an inconvenience to me). I've been to Italy twice since then, used the same carhire company, and I have'nt had any handcuffs slapped on me at the airport.

My advice - dont sweat it......

gyppo

quad_red wrote: »

I just got hit with a fine from Pisa last year.

Went to my folks house who are now all upset and worried because it says if it's not paid in 12 days it will be passed to a debt collection agency.

I swear, I'm never going to Italy again. We were done by the car rental agency when we arrived (pre paid with Budget, they had no cars but promised to refund, were forced to go last minute with Avis who ****ed us royally, Budget then of course refused to refund any money).

And now this. It is for driving through a restricted area. What the hell does that mean? I'm a careful driver. I wouldn't drive down one way streets etc.

Pisa is a notorious spot for this - you drove through a ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato (or something like this)) - which is a resident only thoroughfare.
An overhead camera system monitors all traffic that passes through, and those not on an allowed database are fined.

quad_red

gyppo wrote: »

Pisa is a notorious spot for this - you drove through a ZTL (Zona Traffico Limitato (or something like this)) - which is a resident only thoroughfare.
An overhead camera system monitors all traffic that passes through, and those not on an allowed database are fined.

Is this signposted? I'm usually pretty attentive and cautious if I still warning signs.

Stevie Dakota

A friend warned me about this on a recent visit, I drove around Florence for 2 hours and remember swerving to avoid one of those roads havoing seen the small sign in time, the freaking Sat Nav tried to send me down it!

quad_red

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

A friend warned me about this on a recent visit, I drove around Florence for 2 hours and remember swerving to avoid one of those roads havoing seen the small sign in time, the freaking Sat Nav tried to send me down it!

We just listened to the sat nav.

That bitch hates me Always trying to get me to do U-turns on motorways and the like. Now she's hitting me where it hurts - my wallet.

Stevie Dakota

More here....

http://www.blogfromitaly.com/how-to-pay-pisa-traffic-violations/

phill106

Interesting stuff from steves link

Reader Peter has very kindly drawn my attention to the called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00. The text of the case which is available in English and other European languages, can be seen here:

Judgment of the Court (Sixth Chamber) of 19 March 2002.
Commission of the European Communities v Italian Republic.

Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.

In essence, it does look as though the fines European Union citizens have been receiving are, and always have been invalid.

Again, I would reiterate that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot be sure, but I would repeat Peter’s suggestion that if you are a European Union resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an offence, you should write back quoting case no C-224/00, and saying you will write to MEPs etc about this. If this does not get the Italian authorities off your back – then speak to a lawyer (class actions are possible in Italy now -and I know a good firm of lawyers too!).

In summary – if you received a fine for any motoring offence after 210 days, and you are an EU citizen, you may be able to refuse to pay on the basis of C-224/00.

And here is a comment from reader Pablo, dated 7 March 2010, which other people may find interesting:

Many posts above complain about the Italian authorities’ delay in notifying traffic penalties and their insistence on communicating in Italian. Fear not – the law is on your side, as I think both issues contravene the European Convention on Human Rights, specifically Part I Article 6:

“1 – In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3 – Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”

NOTE: This should not be confused with Article 6 of the EC Treaty referred to in Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update” at the top of this blog.

Key words/phrases italicised above are “within a reasonable time”, “presumed innocent”, “promptly”, “in a language which he understands”, “in detail” and “free … interpreter”.

You must be told promptly of an accusation – presumably so you can recall the circumstances of the incident and collect any evidence you need while memories are still fresh. It follows that if you were not told promptly, then you have obviously been denied the opportunity of “a fair & public hearing within a reasonable time”. Thus it seems the Italian law allowing up to a year to tell you about an accusation is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. As Mike, James & Peter have mentioned, a UK prosecuting authority must serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 2 weeks of an alleged traffic offence, and a penalty notice or court summons within 6 months. If the UK can do it, so could Italy – if it wanted to. You can form your own opinion of why Italian authorities delay sending a penalty notice for a year or more. My guess is it’s to reduce the likelihood of drivers remembering what happened or having kept car hire paperwork & hotel/restaurant/fuel/shopping receipts (to prove when & where you were) after such a long time. Depending on its timing and the extent of detail given, notification of a violation (such as an “amicable” EMO invitation to accept a fine) might satisfy the requirement to inform you promptly of an accusation. But the penalty notice sent by registered post is the important one, so if it arrives after 210 days you can reject it as denying you the option of a hearing “within a reasonable time”.

Regarding time limits, if you receive a penalty notice ask the car rental Co for a copy of documents showing when the police asked for the renter’s data and when they were given, so you can check whether the prescribed timescales were complied with and reject the penalty as out of time if they over-ran. If they claim they’re allowed 360 days remind them of European Court case C-224/00 (see Alex’s 17 Feb “Important Update”). Although that case concerned disparity in the treatment of drivers depending on where their cars were registered, it reinforced the principle in ECHR Pt.1 Art.14 that laws must not discriminate between nationalities. Thus you can reject any liability on the basis that the 360-day rule discriminates against non-Italians, so is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable.

You can insist on being told of the accusation in your own language, despite what Italian authorities might prefer. Again, an Italian law allowing authorities to demand communication in Italian is incompatible with the ECHR and is therefore invalid & unenforceable. It seems you are allowed 60 days from receiving a fine to pay up or appeal, so you could email or fax – in your own language – on the 59th day from receiving a penalty notice in Italian (or an incorrect own-language translation containing bad grammar or wrong spelling such as “Grait” Britain), saying you don’t understand it and ask for an accurate translation. Meanwhile the 210-day clock is still ticking, as the notice doesn’t count as served unless it’s “in a language which [you] understand”, and of course sent by registered post. If it contains any factual errors (name, time, date, location, car Reg.No, make, model etc) you can safely ignore it as it does not accurately describe the accusation and is thus unprovable – but don’t tell ‘em as they could re-issue a correct one within the 210-day period. The longer you spin out the arguments the more they would be likely to abandon the fine or run out of time. As Alex suggested, you could impose your own time-limit, such as “If I do not receive the information requested within 14 days I will assume you have (a) withdrawn all accusation/s, (b) cancelled all associated penalties & charges and (c) ceased all action/s”. With luck they won’t bother to provide a proper translation in time, or just give up. If they complain send them a copy of Article 6 – in English – with the relevant text highlighted (to be ultra-helpful you could also send the Italian version if you can find it).

Another thing: in earlier posts Alex (and the Bella-Toscana link) suggested that Italian law assumes you are guilty until proved innocent. That too is incompatible with the ECHR, under which – as in most western-style democracies – the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. Thus an authority has no right to collect a penalty unless the accusation has been proved. Just saying you were seen in such a place at such a time does not prove you were. A photo of your car – or its number plate, or the driver, or the road – proves nothing without context such as time, date, place, nature of infringement and applicable law – including evidence that adequate signage was in place and operative (the international symbol of a red ring on a white background with a pictogram and/or text specifying the restriction). A close-up snap of a number plate without any verifiable context might lead a suspiciously-minded person to wonder if there could be an element of fakery involved, but of course I can’t imagine who could possibly be so uncharitable… Find the road in Google maps – there might be a “street view” showing if there were proper signs, properly positioned and visible. You could make their life more difficult by asking for proof – in your own language – that the recording equipment has been properly maintained, calibrated and tested, as we can in the UK for camera-related allegations. If the authority can’t prove the camera was working properly, who’s to say it recorded the correct time & date when the photo was taken or if a restriction actually applied when it was taken? Ask for the make & model of equipment and copies of certificates etc (translated to your language) showing this particular device has been certified & approved for this particular use; does it have a good or bad reliability history? You can probably think of a string of other things to slow up the process which you can keep trotting out, one after the other, until they get bored. If they don’t like it or won’t co-operate, tough – the greedy, profiteering scumbags shouldn’t try to rip off foreign tourists with unverified accusations. I certainly wouldn’t even think of using the appeals procedure, for which you have to deposit twice the initial fine! If they try to pursue you for non-payment, you’ll probably have a whole bunch of unanswered technical questions as your defence. The bottom line is, they must prove their case if asked.

EU member nations are legally bound to ensure their laws comply with the ECHR. Therefore I believe the above applies to all nationalities driving in Italy, not only EU citizens. National laws that don’t comply with EU legislation can be challenged in the European Court, as Alex pointed out in his 17 Feb “Important Update”. Italian cities probably issue several million of these fines every year (the Bella-Toscana article said 859,959 in Florence alone in 2008). If even only 10% were challenged it would clog the fines system to the extent it would be unworkable – and might even persuade city authorities to review their policy of killing off the tourist trade.

For those concerned at the legality of the above strategies, I must stress that none of them contravene any valid regulations or laws. On the contrary, they rely on applying the appropriate laws, though not necessarily those the Italian authorities would like. These arguments are equally valid if your own national traffic authority tries to collect under some sort of reciprocity agreement.

Like you Alex, I’m not a lawyer, just an ordinary bloke who can read & think, and I’ve no idea if any of this has been tested in court. If not, who’s first …?

End of 17 February 2o1o and March 7 2010 Updates

Reader Peter has very kindly drawn my attention to the called EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00. The text of the case which is available in English and other European languages, can be seen here:

Judgment of the Court (Sixth Chamber) of 19 March 2002.
Commission of the European Communities v Italian Republic.

Failure by a Member State to fulfil its obligations – Article 6 of the EC Treaty (now, after amendment, Article 12 EC) – Difference in treatment of persons contravening the highway code according to the place of registration of their vehicle – Proportionality.

In essence, it does look as though the fines European Union citizens have been receiving are, and always have been invalid.

Again, I would reiterate that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot be sure, but I would repeat Peter’s suggestion that if you are a European Union resident and you have received a fine more than 210 days after an offence, you should write back quoting case no C-224/00, and saying you will write to MEPs etc about this. If this does not get the Italian authorities off your back – then speak to a lawyer (class actions are possible in Italy now -and I know a good firm of lawyers too!).

In summary – if you received a fine for any motoring offence after 210 days, and you are an EU citizen, you may be able to refuse to pay on the basis of C-224/00.

End of 17 February 2o1o Update

Damie

keithclancy wrote: »

That doesn't work, pre authorised transactions still come off the old card number and will be billed to your new card (I have verified it myself)
QUOTE]

Get a credit card from a different bank...problem solved.

Anan1

Damie wrote: »

keithclancy wrote: »

That doesn't work, pre authorised transactions still come off the old card number and will be billed to your new card (I have verified it myself)
QUOTE]

Get a credit card from a different bank...problem solved.

Won't you still owe the old bank the money?

skibum

quad_red wrote: »

We just listened to the sat nav.

That bitch hates me Always trying to get me to do U-turns on motorways and the like. Now she's hitting me where it hurts - my wallet.

I got rid of the bitch Emily and replaced her with Daniel, all the tension in the car is gone



I wonder if there is a similar ruling (EC -v- Italian Republic, case no C-224/00) for France?

quad_red

My wife is really worried about this so we're gonna pay it.

Worried about the bastards giving it to a debt collection agency or it affecting our credit rating.