The Guinness Premiership vs The Magners League (Post 2009/10 season - How they stand)

[Jackass]

Ok, so it's the age old debate - which is stronger, the English Guinness Premiership or the Celtic Magners League?

We've heard all the old debates, the top Magners teams are probably stronger, but the Guinness Premiership as a whole is the stronger league. Or that the atmosphere, stadia, and crowds are better in GP.

We've also heard that ML teams do better in Europe than GP teams, as there's more at steak in the GP.

Well, I thought I'd pit the 10 best teams of each league head to head, based on final league positions, and see how they fair.

1. Leinster v Leicester

Teams: Well, I think it was said best during last season Heineken Cup final. "If Leinster and Leicester played ten times on a neutral venue, Leinster would probably win six of those games."

I think it's a fair assesment and in a head to head battle, Leinster would just edge it over Leinster (Verdict: Leinster; ML 1 - 0 GP)

Facilities: With a capacity of up to 20,000, the RDS is a fine stadium, with a good capacity, but for a major European team, the Angelsea is slightly dated and the temporary stands at North and South are slightly dated. And despite the good feeling it gives to the stadium, the members bar and toilet facilities and even catering facilities are all sub-par in fairness. Coupled with the fine development of Welford road, with a capacity of 24,000 and the modern facilities provided, and it's no contest really on who wins this battle. But Leinsters facilities at the RDS are adequit for the most part of the season, and with the introduction of Lansdowne Road next season as a Leinster home venue on a number of occasions worthy of it, you would have to say Leinster would have the better facilities to meet the requirements of any game they encounter, but come back next season for the verdict on that (Verdict: Leicester; ML 0 - 1 GP)

Crowds: Leinster hold an average attendence of 15,500 in all competitions (including the strange mid to late-season slump that Leinster always seem to endure in attendences, and not including the probable 20,000 sell out next weekend), it's a very respectable average. But with Leicester 22,500 average attendence in the GP, there's barely a spare seat in the house all season around! It's a stunning record and Leicester certainly enjoy bar far the bigest following and crowds in all of the GP. (Verdict: Leicester; ML 0 - 1 GP)

2. Ospreys v Northampton Saints

Teams: Boasting a starting 15 filled with Lions & Grand Slam winners, it's hard to look past Ospreys on paper. Or even on stats. Despite being notorious underachievers in Europe, the Ospreys just about hold higher European ranking than Northampton. But in Ospreys record against Leicester the real story gets told, with the Ospreys bettering them in Europe this season to eliminate them, whilst also bettering them to win the Anglo-Welsh trophy, they've also survived through a group with Leicester the previous season too. Whilst also enjoying a double over Munster this season. The same Munster that trebled over Northampton. Pound for pound, it can only be the Ospreys. (Verdict: Ospreys; ML 2 - 0 GP)

Facilities: My personal favourite stadium in the Magners League is the Liberty Stadium. Enclosed on all four sides, when this stadium is filled to the rafters and the crowd get behind the O's, most teams know that they're going to be in for a long day. Probably don't get the crowds the stadium and indeed team deserves, but the 20,500 all seater stadium is very impressive none the less. Northampton are no slouches either, and in Franklin Gardens, they have an adequete stadium of 13,500 to showpiece their team in front of. Valient, but no where near the modern, top class facilities of the Ospreys. (Verdict: Ospreys; ML 1 - 1 GP)

Crowds: Let's re-cap. 20,500 all seater brand spanking new stadium, a team full of Lions and grand slam winners, and an average attendence of 8,500 in all competitions. Only on 3 occasions was the 10,000 mark broken. Twice in the Magners League, for derby days with Cardiff and Scarlets, and once, when Leicester came to town, and who knows how much the travelling fans for that one spanked up the numbers. In a word: Disgraceful. But we live in hope that the Welsh outfit, and rugby fans, get their act together and start building off the field just as well as they have done on it. As for the Saints, an average attendence of 13,000 in the GP out of the 13,500 seats, tells us you could be waiting a while to try and get tickets for big Saints games, or you better know someone, as with the poorer and smaller facilities, the Saints fans are numerous and even with arguably a weaker team, seem far more willing to part with their hard earned cash and bare the elements, in a less comfortable stadium, to support their team. You'd wonder how Saints could do with the kind of facilities their ML counterparts have. (Verdict: Saints; ML 0 - 2 GP)

3. Glasgow Warriors v Saracens

Teams: Saracens hold the advantage in European rankings. But you have to wonder, the lower you go down the rankings, how accurate they become? On the one hand, you've got Saracens, picking up nearly all of their ranking points in a season when nearly all realstic contenders were bunched into two groups. This, the season Saracens marched to a European Cup semi-final, but also the season before European seeding was introduced, presumably to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. But you've also got Glasgow on the other hand, who get to compete in Europe every season, regardless of league performance. Glasgow, the up and coming men of Magners Rugby, did well to make a semi-final of the play-offs, however their European form early in the season has not given them the credability of yet to be able to be considered greater than what Saracens have shown this season, although not a million miles off, Glasgow need to enjoy a strong group showing and should realisticly aim for a second spot in their group and to mount a serious challenge on the Amlin cup, something Saracens failed to do. If Glasgow can achieve that, they may turn this one around. (Verdict: Saracens; ML 2 - 1 GP)

Facilities: The magners League is certainly a league of the rich vs the poor. And when you look at Firhill, you're left in no doubt that Glasgow are in less affluent half of the rankings when it comes to facilities. The stadium it's self is the perfect size for a team like Glasgow to look to grow into, with a capacity of just over 10,000, it's not too big to maintain, but big enough not to hamper growth in spectator numbers. Vicerage Road is one of the better GP grounds, with a capacity of over 18,000 and is the perfect home for Saracens. On the balance of things, Saracens certainly have their house more in order than Glasgow. (Verdict: Saracens; ML 1 - 2 GP)

Crowds: 3,875 is the average that can be expected to attend a Glasgow match in the ML. Along with Connacht, the worst crowds in the league. But it's a growing sport and does have big competition from the soccer obsessed city devided by blue and green. I suppose getting those fans to open an eligence to rugby is one thing, but trying to convince the fans that scream bloody murder to eachother on the Friday night to sit together on the Saturday night might be stumbling block they will always look to overcome. Saracens crowds have been healthy throughtout the year. (Verdict: Saracens; ML 0 - 3 GP)

4. Munster v Bath Rugby

Teams: Finishing 4th in the Magners League can be seen as a poor domestic season for the men in red, especially considering that they were defending their crown. When put head to head with Bath, a club turned into turmoil over drug scandals, there aren't many teams in the GP who would get the better of Munster. And if there are any, Bath aren't one of them. (Verdict: Munster; ML 3 - 1 GP)

Facilities: The Rec is a personal favourite of mine, I love Bath as a city and I love their rugby stadium also. It's 12,000 capacity is compact, but it's atmosphere reminds me of Leinster. It's like a mini-RDS in looks, and like a big-Donnybrook in atmosphere and in a tight crowd around the pitch. An excellent stadium doesn't beat one of the best rugby stadiums in Europe and one of the best provincial / rugby stadiums in the world. The new Thomond Park is a legacy to Munsters 15 years of assault on Europe throughout the professional era and is a monument to all that they achieved. The real trophy for all their indevour over the first decade and a half of European rugby isn't found in the pictures of Axel Foley or Paul O'Connell lifting the trophy in pictures on the wall, nor is it found around the necks of the players who played that day. It's found on the East and West side of the Thomond Park pitch, and Munster recoup the rewards of that acheivement every time the red army descend on Limerick. (Verdict: Munster; ML 2 - 2 GP)

Crowds: Even limited by the 8,500 capacity of Musgrave Park on occasion, Munster boast an impressive average attendence of 18,500, the highest in the Magners League and near enough as high as any domestic league average attendance you'll find in Europe. (Verdict: Munster; ML 1 - 3 GP)

5. Cardiff Blues v London Wasps

Teams: Both these sides just missed out on a play-off place, and both these sides are notoriously poor domestic league performers, until at least the closing stages of the season, when they leave themselves with a lot of work to do, both falling just short on his occasion. But on the overall scheme of things, Blues had the better season, lifting their first European crown and disposing of some good sides along the way, Cardiff have been mixing it with the best in Europe for a while now, narrowly missing out on a Heineken Cup Final appearance last season and again holding their own in tusstles with the likes of Tolouse this season. Wasps were clinical in their hay-day, landing two European trophies, but the Delalligho days are gone, and Wasps aren't the team they used to be. (Verdict: Cardiff; ML 4 - 1 GP)

Facilities: Adams Park is a stadium where not too many visiting teams celibrate. But the facilities are good, if not modern, and with a modest capacity of 10,000, Wasps aren't exactly in tone of the greatest rugby stadiums around, but they make do with what they have, with Twickenham a viable option for bigger games. Cardiff however are yet another team in the Magners League boasting brand new, top of the range facilities, with the Cardiff City stadium equiped for the most lush corporate occassions, to packing 26,500 spectators in it's doors, it's also the biggest stadium in the Magners League. Not withstanding that we'll see your Twickenham and raise you one Millenium stadium for when it's required. (Verdict: Cardiff; ML 3 - 2 GP)

Crowds: Cardiff's 11,000 average attendence in this seasons Magners League says a lot. Not only is this a club moving forward on the pitch, but they're making great strides off it too. Cardiff, a sleeping giant of European Rugby, are coming to life, and perhaps two seasons of big European performances have put them on the map, I suspect it's what they do over the next few seasons that will see them repsected and feared around Europe when the draws are made for the competition. Wasps' Adams Park failed to sell out once this season, all be it with derbys vs Harlequinns and Bath moved to the larger stadium, Cardiff get the bigger crowds, and if rumour is to be believed and they may be forced to give up their lease on Cardiff city stadium, then good luck getting a ticket for the Arms Park, because Cardiffs fan base is growing and growing and is now too small to go back to. (Verdict: Cardiff; ML 2 - 3 GP)

6. Edinburgh v London Irish

Teams: Edinburgh hung in there in a tough group in Europe, besting GP play-off qualifiers Bath in the group and narrowly missing out behind Ulster and Stade Francais, winning half of their European games was no poor achievement. London Irish picked up a major scalp, winning in the fortress RDS on the first game of the reigning champions defence, they did well to spoil the party, and were unlucky not to claim the scalp again back in London. It was against the lesser teams that London Irish let themselves down, with the Scarlets doing the double over them and ending their European dream, as they marched on into the Amlin. Don't be decieved by LI's march to a Heineken Cup semi as with Saracns, a lot has changed since then, because of that, and although this one will go to London Irish, this is a lot closer than most GP fans would be willing to admit, and on another day, another season, it could well have gone to the Scottish capital. (Verdict: London Irish; ML 4 - 2 GP)

Facilities: Well, considering Edinburgh don't have any, this is a no show. (Verdict: London Irish; ML 3 - 3 GP)

Crowds: Edinburghs 95% empty stadium is only surpassed in embarresment by the site of a few rows of seats being filled at the front. Other than the Glasgow derby, attendences are nothing short of appauling, coming from a capital city, with no other REAL major sports competition. You get the feeling though, if Edinburgh start geting things right on the pitch, things will improve off it. Big loss of Andy Robinson to Scottish national side, question marks still hang over whethere or not he was better left where he was and bring in another, equally qualified coach to the national team. (Verdict: London Irish; ML 2 - 4 GP)

7. Dragons v Gloucester

Teams: The Dragons won the "Welsh Team of the Season" presumably as the most improved Welsh team, and not so much for their performances on the field. They were poor in Europe, sealing just one win, and 7th in the league and third bottom Welsh side doesn't suggest that the Dragons are turning the world on fire just yet. More missery is bestowed upon them by not having a single player included in the Welsh squad, with lowly Scarlets bagging a number of call ups. It's not a tough head to head when you look at Gloucester in the same Heineken Cup group and the two victories they enjoyed over the Dragons. (Verdict: Gloucester; ML 4 - 3 GP)

Facilities: Gloucesters' 16,500 capacity Kingsholm stadium is a typical GP stadium, a mish mash of stands developed over time, not extremely modern, but incorporates all the required comforts to make it a modern ground sufficient for the purpose it's intended for. Rodney Parade on the other hand has had a redevelopment plan that would have seen them possibly edge this battle shelved for now, and the ground remains in need of investment. (Verdict: Gloucester, ML 3 - 4 GP)

Crowds: Kingsholm see's the bigger crowds coming through the gates, but it must be noted that the Dragons numbers are always on the rise, and weren't often shy of the 8,000 mark towards the end of the season per game. (Verdict: Gloucester; ML 2 - 5 GP)

8. Ulster v Harlequins

Teams: This really is a case of one team on ath asscent meeting one team on the descent. Quins, sliding more and more in the context of English ruby, are passing Ulster, a rising light in Magners rugby, on the way down. The youngster of Ulster, such as Cave, Pollock, Ferris, Timble et al are seeing Ulster once again go in persuit of former glories as the once top Irish side (with most inter-provincial titles) and first Irish and Magners team to be crowned the champions of Europe build again for the future. Consistency is key. In the European front, Ulster lost out agonisingly by a single bonus point to causing the shock of the group stages and knocking out Stade Francais in the group stages. On the flip side, Quins had an absolute disastor in Europe, failing to secure a single win. (Verdict: Ulster; ML 5 - 3 GP)

Facilities: Both teams, whilst in the wrong end of the leagues, boast good facilities. Ulster have a newly redeveloped stand with excellent corporate facilities and a total capacity of 12,000 and ambitious plans to restore more of the ground to bring it up to standard of a top European side, backed by the IRFU. The 15,000 capacity stoop also boasts good and modern facilities. With additional seaing though, Ulster can host more, and wth the moderisation of their stadium and the facilities now available, there can only be one outome, although a close one to call. (Verdict: Ulster ML 4 - 4 GP)

Crowds: With an average attendence just shy of 9,000, Ulster numbers have dwindeld slightly over the last couple of years, not surprising considering the decline and coaching mess that the average Ulster fan has had to endure, despite the famous Ravenhill Roar, the Quinns attendences of just over 10,000 make it close, but goes the way of the GP. (Verdict: Harlequins ML 2 - 6 GP)

9. Scarlets v Newcastle Falcons

Teams: Newcaslt grabbed a lot of vital points towards the end of the season to ensure GP survival, but this did little more than paper over the cracks of a limited side, seemingly condemned forever to the lowly GP places. When tested in Europe they crumbled against Cardiff, seeing more than a half century being put up against them. On the other hand, Scarlets, despite poor league form, equited themselves quite well in Europe, toppling London Irish twice to seal their place in the Amlin Cup. A young, promising side, things got bad at Parc Y Scarlets, but must be considered a team on the up. (Verdict: Scarlets ML 6 - 3 GP)

Facilities: Parc Y Scarlets boasts brand new, top class facilities, massively impressive for a side of Scarlets stature. The 15,000 capacity stadium outshines Kingston Park in all ways. (Verdict: Scarlets ML 5 - 4 GP)

Crowds: Newcastles average attendence in the Guinness Premiership is poor by relative standards, but for a side of persistant triers and ultimate never achievers is not a bad return for what must feel like a lost cause every time the jersey is donned and the bus journey begins for the average Newcastle fan on the average match day. So for those 6,000 the dedication must be admired. Perhaps the Scarlets fans have more to be optomistic about, with a 7,500 average gate.(Verdict: Scarlets ML 3 - 6 GP)

10. Connacht v Leeds Carnegie

Teams: It's at the lowly end of the table that comparrisons get more difficult. Connacht, a development province, gain the support of the IRFU by way of giving game time to young and promising, yet ultimately unexperienced and still a bit rough around the edges talent. A strong European showing and a new coaching ticket plus some more signings give the Western's much to be optomistic about. Not far off Heineken Cup qualification at last through their own European endevours this season. Consistant Magners League form still seems to be the holy grail for Connacht though. Leeds' European adventure was cut short by Bourgoin, the very side Connacht dispatched of in the same competition. As difficult as this is to call, I give the nod to Leeds, just. But nothing much in it. (Verdict: Leeds ML 6 - 4 GP)

Facilities: Connacht's race course ground was never a source of great pride for Connacht rugby. It's not really a ground where Connacht can hope to see as long term if they're serious about their long term survival. Leeds on the other hand, go slightly over-kill with the 20,500 capacity Headingly. (Verdict: Leeds ML 5 - 5 GP)

Crowds: Leeds average crowd of over 6,000 is impressibe for a club of Leeds stature, and far exceeds that of Connacht. (Verdict: Leeds ML 3 - 7 GP)

So, in conclussion, it appears that team for team, from start to finish, the overall quality, in my most honest, sincere and impartial opinion, is that taking the top 10 equivalent teams in the GP and ML, the ML quality of side is superior overall, with 6 from 10, but the gap at the top is far greater in favour of ML than it is for GP in the sides they better. Overall, I think the quality of team goes fairly comfortably to ML.

As for facilites, it's very even, but with the quality of top facilities in both leagues going head to head, the top facilities in the ML again far exceed that of the GP, so despite the 5 - 5 overall score, I think the ML shades this one.

But most interestingly, the Magners League, with the better teams and better facilities are demolished in the crowd steaks. 7 - 3 to the GP, and they come to see a poorer product in poorer surroundings?

It's often been argued that the atmosphere makes the GP, and maybe they're right, but it's apperant that the product for the ML is there, but until the crowrds come out and appreciate what we have and create the intensity, rivalry and competetiveness of the GP, the ML can never claim to be a greater league.

It's worth noting the relatively young age of the league, and some of the teams competeing within, the always increasing attendences and always improving facilities and more and more dominant top teams, that the ML is still on the right track, but it's taking it's time to catch up with 100's of years of history of the GP, but ML is getting there. The key to this league is held in the marketing though, and I think the Play-Offs is another massive step to developing the buzz and rivalries needed within the league. The Magners League is getting there, and is probably already better a league in terms of over-all teams and facilities, it'll never be the spectible of the GP until the atmosphere and crowds are there.

The next steps for the ML? Bringing European Qualification in line with all 3 major European Leagues. That is the final step before the ML surpasses the GP, relegation or no relegation.

chupacabra

[Jackass] wrote: »

We've also heard that ML teams do better in Europe than GP teams, as there's more at steak in the GP.

Sorry, i just couldn't help it. :pac:

toomevara

The GP has improved massively in the second half of the season following some truly appalling rugby in the first half of the season. The RFU met in february and issued a directive ordering refs to clamp down on teams slowing/killing ball. The results have been fantastic and the quality of the rugby has soared. Teams have also changed how they play the game in response e.g. Saracens, and some pretty attractive stuff has been played over the last 3 months. Average premiership gate now 13,600 odd, anyone know what it is for the ML as a matter of interest?

Junior

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ok, so it's the age old debate - which is stronger, the English Guinness Premiership or the Celtic Magners League?


I think it's a fair assesment and in a head to head battle, Leinster would just edge it over Leinster (Verdict: Leinster; ML 1 - 0 GP)

I'd pay to see Leinster play Leinster

Junior

I'd like to have seen you keep the scores the whole way down rather than points to either team ?

Tim Robbins

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ok, so it's the age old debate - which is stronger, the English Guinness Premiership or the Celtic Magners League?
...

You should be working as a Rugby journo Jackass. Incredible amount of knowledge.

Excellent piece well put together. I think we'd beat Leeds though! It'll be more interesting next season when you have 12 v 12.

Zzippy

Interesting, although maybe attendances are always going to be higher in the much more densely populated and larger urban centres in England. They say you can prove anything with statistics, but comparing Connacht's attendance to that of Leeds is a bit too far - the population of Leeds is about 10 times that of Galway (715,000 vs 72,000), but the average attendance is about 4 times higher. So per capita you could say Connacht is better supported. Again, it doesn't prove anything, its just a statistic.
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that matters when comparing leagues is quality of the rugby and ultimately, the success of the teams competing in that league. On both counts, the ML wins out on current form - HEC champions 3 of the last 4 years, etc.

ALH-06

Zzippy wrote: »

Interesting, although maybe attendances are always going to be higher in the much more densely populated and larger urban centres in England. They say you can prove anything with statistics, but comparing Connacht's attendance to that of Leeds is a bit too far - the population of Leeds is about 10 times that of Galway (715,000 vs 72,000), but the average attendance is about 4 times higher. So per capita you could say Connacht is better supported.

Also, the fact that rugby out west has so much to compete with, re gaelic sports and football. Though Leeds (and much of northern England) traditionally have a very strong RL following as well...

[Jackass] wrote: »

Cardiff get the bigger crowds, and if rumour is to be believed and they may be forced to give up their lease on Cardiff city stadium, then good luck getting a ticket for the Arms Park, because Cardiffs fan base is growing and growing and is now too small to go back to.

I hadn't heard about this, what's the story there?

toomevara

Zzippy wrote: »

Interesting, although maybe attendances are always going to be higher in the much more densely populated and larger urban centres in England. They say you can prove anything with statistics, but comparing Connacht's attendance to that of Leeds is a bit too far - the population of Leeds is about 10 times that of Galway (715,000 vs 72,000), but the average attendance is about 4 times higher. So per capita you could say Connacht is better supported. Again, it doesn't prove anything, its just a statistic.

Yeah, very good points, and don't forget also you've got to factor in Rugby League in Leeds. It really is the only game in town, home to three in a row super league winners and current champions, the mighty rhinos, with regular attendances between 15-17,000. It actually the best supported rugby club of either code in the UK, and here when you talk about rugby, people assume its league you're talking about, union is the poor cousin. League is a way of life here and given that comparisons are difficult to make.

durkadurka

Excellent work Jackass - the difference in competitiveness and intensity of the GP over the ML is huge though and that needs to be addressed

Pound for pound the teams may be better in the ML but a lot of the games are played at fairly low intensity. Sure we have belters like the interpros, but there are a lot of quite low intensity games too.

Plus when you factor in the terrible crowds that the scots and welsh bring, it does detract from it - there's nothing worse than empty stands.

I reckon in England, winning the GP carries more cachet than winning the Magners does here, and is not far off winning the HEC in terms of achievement. The ML does not have the same credibility here - witness Munster almost embarrassed to win it last year because it was a pale shadow of the HEC they really wanted.

The play offs are changing that big time - the desire to win it this year is certainly higher, and the RDS will be rocking on Saturday, as I believe Thomond would be if they had a home semi or final. The run in this year was very exciting and you have 6 teams in it right to the end.

But the Ospreys could only presuade 7000 to see them a week ago for their home semi and that's seriously disappointing, despite the fact that they seem to have really set their hearts on winning it - which is great. Could we honestly say this would have happened in the GP?

I believe the gap is closing and there is no question that the teams in the Magners are excellent.
We had 2 HEC semi teams, 1 QF, 1 Amlin Semi and Amlin winner. The scots are improving too which is a good thing.
The GP had nothing like that this year.

Podge_irl

durkadurka wrote: »

Excellent work Jackass - the difference in competitiveness and intensity of the GP over the ML is huge though and that needs to be addressed

I don't particularly believe this. "Competitiveness" and "intensity" are two things that are reasonably hard to quantify, but I certainly don't think the ML has been, in general, lacking in either this year. It's an observation that's thrown around a lot, but I just don't think it has much weight anymore.

But the Ospreys could only presuade 7000 to see them a week ago for their home semi and that's seriously disappointing, despite the fact that they seem to have really set their hearts on winning it - which is great. Could we honestly say this would have happened in the GP?

Their attendances aren't a hell of a lot better for the HEC. Ospreys just have exceptionally poor attendance figures, the competition they're involved in doesn't factor in a huge amount.

shawpower

Podge_irl wrote: »

Their attendances aren't a hell of a lot better for the HEC. Ospreys just have exceptionally poor attendance figures, the competition they're involved in doesn't factor in a huge amount.

Apparently they are only bringing 700 over to Dublin for the ML final.

durkadurka

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't particularly believe this. "Competitiveness" and "intensity" are two things that are reasonably hard to quantify, but I certainly don't think the ML has been, in general, lacking in either this year. It's an observation that's thrown around a lot, but I just don't think it has much weight anymore.



Their attendances aren't a hell of a lot better for the HEC. Ospreys just have exceptionally poor attendance figures, the competition they're involved in doesn't factor in a huge amount.

Yeah it is hard to quantify, and that's why Jackass didn't have solid analysis on it - because you can't measure it. But you know it when you see it.

I've been to nearly all of Leinster's home games this season and there is a serious drop off in intensity between the HEC and Munster games and some of the more mundane Dragons, scarlets, Cardiff type league matches. The crowd are there but aren't that up for it, the team are playing ok but not in 'put your body on the line for the cause mode'

The fact that no one goes to see Ospreys for the HEC is also true of the Scots, but it still counts against the Magners IMO because many of their teams are poorly supported no matter what.

Its on the way up though. the Play offs have made a huge difference. If we didn't have them, the Ospreys probably would have lost all interest towards the end, and once Leinster beat Munster, that would have been game over and Leinster would have coasted to the league win. The fact that you have a chance means that you'll ush al lt he way, and Leinster were still motivated till the end to get the precious home draw.

[Jackass]

ALH-06 wrote: »

I hadn't heard about this, what's the story there?

If Cardiff got promoted to the English premiership in football (they lost the play-off to Blackpool I think though) there's either a condition in the lease that they can remove Cardiff rugby from using the stadium, or it was just suggested that they may request it to be used as full time soccer stadium only.

I'm not sure on the exact details. But I know that Cardiff rugby fans were quite excited about this, as with most things welsh, where there's provincial rugby, there's issues over the history of the team and the new borders it represents and cross over of teams etc. (see Ospreys trying to unite Neath & Swansea fans and being left with very little in between - they'll have a big following, but it'll take time, and they probably moved too quickly with the new stadium).

Some Cardiff fans boycott the new stadium as there was "nothing wrong" with the Arms Park. Personally, I like to see my team looking forward and would prefer a top class stadium a bit too big for now, than an old stadium that's adequete for now, but no forsight for the future.

shawpower wrote: »

Apparently they are only bringing 700 over to Dublin for the ML final.

That's terrible if true.

thomond2006

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's terrible if true.

Meh, doesn't surprise me. Their support nowadays is pathetic. It's a shame because their stadium looks fantastic.

I'd love to know where they get the money to bankroll all their stars when their gate receipts pale in comparison to Munster or Leinster's. Players like Bowe and Collins don't come cheap. Mike Phillips is on crazy wages too (can't remember the figure ).

Their squad depth is frightening, they are probably the biggest underachievers in European rugby.

You'd think with Ospreys in their first ever final (outside of the defunct EDF cup), more would make the trip.

When Scott Johnson took over, IIRC he talked about creating an Ospreys "identity". All of the Irish provinces have an identity IMO.

Digifriendly

toomevara wrote: »

Yeah, very good points, and don't forget also you've got to factor in Rugby League in Leeds. It really is the only game in town, home to three in a row super league winners and current champions, the mighty rhinos, with regular attendances between 15-17,000. It actually the best supported rugby club of either code in the UK, and here when you talk about rugby, people assume its league you're talking about, union is the poor cousin. League is a way of life here and given that comparisons are difficult to make.

Do Leicester Tigers not get bigger attendances than Leeds Rhinos? As regards Ospreys - don't Swansea City (who share the same stadium) regularly attract capacity or near capacity crowds?

outwest

the ospreys supporters are awful, they never get behind there team,

i dont think they have ever sold out for a game, connacht would bring more fans than 700, for a final,

Risteard

The fact is that the Ospreys as a team are only 6 seasons old.

Before that they were Neath and Swansea. Two rivals in the Welsh premiership. It's not easy to just lump all the supporters in behind this new team.

How would fans of Shannon, Young Munster, Bohs etc. feel if they were all just lumped in to one 'Limerick' club. I'm sure they wouldn't like it.

I'm sure the Ospreys are doing their best to encourage support among the region, but it's not as simple as saying 'here are a load of stars, come watch them.'

As a matter of interest let's look at some early attendances of the HC.

1996/97 Leinster - Toulouse Attendance: 6,000

1996/97 Swansea - Wasps. Attendance: 5,000

Only 1,000 less despite being a lot smaller than the Leinster region.

But, Leinster have grown a lot since then and Swansea have effectively been 'relegated' while a new franchise takes all their best players.

durkadurka

Risteard wrote: »

The fact is that the Ospreys as a team are only 6 seasons old.

Before that they were Neath and Swansea. Two rivals in the Welsh premiership. It's not easy to just lump all the supporters in behind this new team.

How would fans of Shannon, Young Munster, Bohs etc. feel if they were all just lumped in to one 'Limerick' club. I'm sure they wouldn't like it.

I'm sure the Ospreys are doing their best to encourage support among the region, but it's not as simple as saying 'here are a load of stars, come watch them.'

As a matter of interest let's look at some early attendances of the HC.

1996/97 Leinster - Toulouse Attendance: 6,000

1996/97 Swansea - Wasps. Attendance: 5,000

Only 1,000 less despite being a lot smaller than the Leinster region.

But, Leinster have grown a lot since then and Swansea have effectively been 'relegated' while a new franchise takes all their best players.

That was in the very early stages of the competition and indeed of professionalism though. It's a mature established competition now with huge interest so the comparison is different.

profitius

durkadurka wrote: »

Yeah it is hard to quantify, and that's why Jackass didn't have solid analysis on it - because you can't measure it. But you know it when you see it.

I've been to nearly all of Leinster's home games this season and there is a serious drop off in intensity between the HEC and Munster games and some of the more mundane Dragons, scarlets, Cardiff type league matches. The crowd are there but aren't that up for it, the team are playing ok but not in 'put your body on the line for the cause mode'

The fact that no one goes to see Ospreys for the HEC is also true of the Scots, but it still counts against the Magners IMO because many of their teams are poorly supported no matter what.

Theres alot of GP and Top14 games that are not very intense. Most French teams have big squads and rotate for games. They put out weakened teams for away games all the time. So basically its not black and white.

In fact if theres 1 competition not taken seriously by alot of teams its the Heineken cup!! Its still the best competition in Europe.

Risteard

durkadurka wrote: »

That was in the very early stages of the competition and indeed of professionalism though. It's a mature established competition now with huge interest so the comparison is different.

Fair enough, admittedly the HC comparison was a bit iffy but my point is that the Ospreys' attendances can hardly be 'pathetic,' as said above. They're average.

Team|Total Attendance|Average Attendance|
Munster|167,695|18,633
Leinster|121,097|13,455
Cardiff Blues|97,681|10,853
Ulster|79,771|8,863
Ospreys|77,471|8,608
Scarlets|66,221|7,358
Dragons|55,485|6,165
Edinburgh|38,499|4,278
Glasgow|34,880|3,876
Connacht|19330|2,148*Not including Semis & Finals

Ospreys' and Cardiff's attendances are pretty much the norm. Munster and Leinster are just a lot ahead of the competition, you can hardly judge every other team compared to those two. Then you have teams like Glasgow and Edinburgh where roughly 1/3 of their attendances come from the matches played against each other and plummet against the rest. The less said about Connacht with regard to attendances, the better.

So I can hardly see why there's people complaining about Ospreys' attendances.

durkadurka

The attendances for the ospreys are average for the magners but very poor given the talent on display and poor compared to the GP.

thomond2006

Risteard wrote: »

Fair enough, admittedly the HC comparison was a bit iffy but my point is that the Ospreys' attendances can hardly be 'pathetic,' as said above. They're average.

That's just my bias.

Risteard

durkadurka wrote: »

The attendances for the ospreys are average for the magners but very poor given the talent on display and poor compared to the GP.

If there's only a certain amount of interest, lots of stars isn't going to change it.

Glasgow and Edinburgh both had fantastic seasons this year and in the case of Edinburgh at least, played some good entertaining rugby, yet when you take out the rivalry elemnt, they're averaging about 3 or 4 thousand for games, despite playing well.

It's not as simple as saying 'more stars = bigger attendance.'

durkadurka

Maybe its a failure of marketing. Hard to believe, but leinster had only 500 season ticket holders 6 years ago.

outwest

whats hard to believe,

leinster attendance was poor 6 years ago compared to what it is know, alot of fans have hoped on onto the band wagen because their a succesful team

[Jackass]

Well I think it's harsh to put it down to badgwagon alone.

The Heineken Cup has grown into a massive international competition, and the promise of tickets for this is nearly worth the extremely good value on offer for a Leinster season ticket.

The profile of the club / provincial game has grown massively as a result of the growth in European competition and the gradual sucsess of the Magners League brough rugby more main stream.

Tickets never sold out back in the day, where as now local derbys are tough to get tickets for, let alone European matches, particularly away European matches, which are near impossible to get unless you're a season ticket holder. There's a lot more incentive to buy a season ticket now.

The facilities have improved immeasurably from 6 years ago (pre-Cheika getting our house in order).

The team was near collapse 6 years ago with the Kidney disastor and infighting and restlessness, when BO'D almost quit to head to France. (or so he maintains to this day was not a contract bargaining point )

A lot has changed, it's harsh to say that all increased tickets and attendence is down to a bandwagon. The team and branch need to look after supporters too if they want to expect loyal support beside the pitch as well as from behind the tv - it's a case of getting the fans to come to the games - something the Ospreys fail at.

Leinster marketing is arguably the best in the league. Munster for example sold it's self. A momentum picked up down there, where sport is largely based around local activity and county teams. A Munster provence in any sport was always going to catch on as long as they were sucsessfull.

In Leinster it's very differnet. The majority of support of sport in Dublin is not community based. It's split between countless different sports, and unlike outside of Dublin, soccer is BY FAR the biggest sport in Dublin (excluding "foreign" Irish players, i.e.born abroad but play for Ireland, I was told that something up to 2 thrids of every Irish squad is Dublin players alone.). They don't even follow local sport, they follow English sport, then you've got the big city divide.

After the expert demolition job the media did on Leinster rugby, it has now been SO demonised that in certain parts of Dublin, the sport is extremely frowned upon. We've always been experts at dividing ourselves in this country, rather than all getting behind the one thing.

Outside of Dublin this demolition job did a lot of damage too, with people slow to embrace a team that has been portrayed as coming from a tiny regional area in the corner of south Dublin - it takes time to embrace something and to feel like it's your own, and Leinster rugby was SO segregated by the media that the hinderence will take years to recover in most parts, and the damage is unrepairable in other parts (mostly the disadvantaged parts of Dublin where rugby has been made so taboo - it's a source that rugby will never properly tap in to now.)

There's no question that over a long enough time frame, Leinster will grow a much greater support base than any other team in this country - it's inevitable given the numbers in each province and if we look at the annual growth in revenu and support, the angle of growth at which the Leinster chart points is a lot steaper than that of any other province, and only in the last 5 or so years have Leinster really begun the push to grow the sport in the province.

I think black Sunday in 2006 and the humiliation from Munster both on and off the pitch was the turning point. But it's come a long way since then and doesn't look like slowing down any time soon.

profitius

Rugby is sexy in Ireland. Its promoted well and theres a healthy rivalry between the Irish teams. We have world class players like BOD and the Irish teams are always in with a good chance of winning things. The provinces are natural regions so we're lucky in that regard.

In Scotland its different. Theres no promotion whatsoever unlike in Ireland and Wales. The Scottish teams are unlikely to win anything and they sell their best players. Theres no superstars playing for them and little atmosphere at games.

The Welsh supporters have the promotion and star names playing for their teams but don't feel much for the new regions. The way the regions were set up was very bad and alienated alot of people. It'll take time for the attendances to grow.

You also have the likes of Llanelli who don't have a massive fan base mainly because Llanelli isn't a very big place.

The ML will continue to grow. Irish rugby will go from strength to strength in terms of quality players and attendances. The only thing that will slow the growth of attendance average is stadium size. There'll be 4 extra games next season so it should be interesting to see the attendances. If theres more ML games in Cork next season Munsters average will dip.

mrboswell

profitius wrote: »

Rugby is sexy in Ireland. Its promoted well and theres a healthy rivalry between the Irish teams. We have world class players like BOD and the Irish teams are always in with a good chance of winning things. The provinces are natural regions so we're lucky in that regard.

In Scotland its different. Theres no promotion whatsoever unlike in Ireland and Wales. The Scottish teams are unlikely to win anything and they sell their best players. Theres no superstars playing for them and little atmosphere at games.

The Welsh supporters have the promotion and star names playing for their teams but don't feel much for the new regions. The way the regions were set up was very bad and alienated alot of people. It'll take time for the attendances to grow.

You also have the likes of Llanelli who don't have a massive fan base mainly because Llanelli isn't a very big place.

The ML will continue to grow. Irish rugby will go from strength to strength in terms of quality players and attendances. The only thing that will slow the growth of attendance average is stadium size. There'll be 4 extra games next season so it should be interesting to see the attendances. If theres more ML games in Cork next season Munsters average will dip.

You're right with regard to the Scots and Welsh as its been a bit of a mess there for years now but both are making a comeback since they concentrated on just a few professional teams.

The strength of Irish rugby going forward will be dependent on the academies producing quality players and Leinster are far more set to take advantage of the academy production line as they are HETAC recognised.

Rugby can take a lesson here from the GAA - sure Croker has a great capacity but for lesser games it is very hard to fill and unless they get 35K people min they won't break even.

There is no doubt that for the big games a big stadium will pack out but why shouldn't a smaller stadium host a match if the supporter numbers are going to be less - consider one of the Italian teams getting hammered (hopefully they won't and make a game of it). If you are going to be realistic you know those games wont pack out.

Going back to the original post its worth considering that for the Guinness Premiership has relegation which means every point counts - they have to play their best EVERY game.
The Magners has the luxury of playing a weakened team, if they chose, for any game they chose. This is because they do not have the fear of relegation.

When HCup time comes around this puts the Magners teams in a far superior position. Players from the Magners can be previously rested whereas players from the Guinness Premiership may have played to the limit the previous week in a top of the table or down the basement clash.

We can all have opinions on which is better but we have no real comparison as the HCup in not a comparable competition as the Magners teams have a massive advantage (over the French teams also).

Tim Robbins

What's very interesting is that when the Welsh regions were created, the scarlets refused to join up with anyway. They were easily the strongest Welsh side then. Look at them now. Last in the Magners League.

smurphy29

outwest wrote: »

whats hard to believe,

leinster attendance was poor 6 years ago compared to what it is know, alot of fans have hoped on onto the band wagen because their a succesful team

Bandwagon my eye... here are the attendances from 2006-07, the season after Black Sunday, when the rest of the country and the meeja loved nothing more than laughing at our expense. This was Leinster's first season in the RDS and the new, larger ground attracted a strong following in spite of all that. Munster were the third best attended Irish team in the Magners that season.


Leinster 11,892
Ulster Rugby 10,206
Ospreys 9,027
Cardiff Blues 7,747
Munster 6,922
Llanelli Scarlets 6,396
Newport Gwent Dragons 5,573
Edinburgh 2,685
Glasgow Warriors 2,089
Connacht Rugby 1,980
Border Reivers 1,595

durkadurka

smurphy29 wrote: »

Bandwagon my eye... here are the attendances from 2006-07, the season after Black Sunday, when the rest of the country and the meeja loved nothing more than laughing at our expense. This was Leinster's first season in the RDS and the new, larger ground attracted a strong following in spite of all that. Munster were the third best attended Irish team in the Magners that season.


Leinster 11,892
Ulster Rugby 10,206
Ospreys 9,027
Cardiff Blues 7,747
Munster 6,922
Llanelli Scarlets 6,396
Newport Gwent Dragons 5,573
Edinburgh 2,685
Glasgow Warriors 2,089
Connacht Rugby 1,980
Border Reivers 1,595

Jaysus the Ospreys have gone DOWN since then!!

Risteard

There's no doubt that Rugby in Ireland is going through a 'boom' phase.

I think that a lot of the people that have 'jumped on the bandwagon' (hate that phrase btw) will be staying. Irish teams are growing, it's to be expected with the success over the years and I think they're doing a good job of keeping these new supporters around.

Munster averaged 18,600 this year in the ML with pretty poor perforrmances for lots of games. It could have been higher but for the restriced space of Musgrave park. Leinster now have more season ticket holders than ever before. It's great.

Hopefully Connacht can keep some of those people that turned up for the semi-final and get them back regualrly in addition to the 2000 or so 'diehards.'

thomond2006

Connacht should be aiming for 6-7 thousand at Irish derbies.

durkadurka

I hate the phrase 'jumping on the bandwagon'. It's like you're inferior for starting to support something, or for responding positively to the team's success . Just because you arrived late to the scene you're less of a fan for some reason.

There are those who would prefer to be back in donnybrook in front of 5000 people, and failing, rather than making progress. Not me I want 20000 at every game if possible.

outwest

hopefully the crowds with get bigger because of the peformances after janurary,

if we can get 2000 at evry game but the derby's and 3-4000 for the others,

8000 at toulan dont see why half of those cant go to more games.

Danger_dave1

Ill talk about the topic tomorrow, but i just like to thank jackass alot for posting such a good thread that deserves more than just a thanks on your post. I really enjoyed it, and its making be post on the rugby forum properly on the rugby for a long time

Digifriendly

Yesterday's GP final was one of the best games I've seen on TV all season and compared to ML grand final was a better game to watch. But over the season as a whole I thought ML was just as good if not better than GP from what I saw.

delta_bravo

Neil Francis made a interesting point today in the Tribune. The grand final had 15 lions players on the field while the GP final had 2. Claims of inferiority are definitely not true. I think the magners league is going to develop into an excellent tournament over time.

danthefan

delta_bravo wrote: »

Neil Francis made a interesting point today in the Tribune. The grand final had 15 lions players on the field while the GP final had 2. Claims of inferiority are definitely not true. I think the magners league is going to develop into an excellent tournament over time.

I would not be able to understand how anyone could argue the ML final was nearly as good as the GP final, Lions or otherwise.

outwest

the gp final was 10 time better then magners, who cares about the lions,

both team turned up in gp final infront of 800000 compared to 18000.

profitius

Being better to watch is different from being a higher quality match. For example the winning Leicester try was a comedy of errors.

As for the attendance, I think having the final in a neutral venue is a money making joke. It should be at the home at the team who finished highest in the league.

outwest

just stop, gp was an higher standard,

leinster was a comedy or errors for most of the match

ALH-06

outwest wrote: »

just stop, gp was an higher standard,

leinster was a comedy or errors for most of the match

The quality / fluidity of a single match doesn't prove anything though.

What does prove a point however is that the GP final had an attendance of 80,000, with a massive, world-class stadium packed to the rafters. Whatever about the quality of players on offer, the ML will have serious status & prestige issues compared to the GP until spectator numbers increase significantly.

The Welsh in particular have got to get on board! They have great teams with great facilities - there's no excuse now...

mrboswell

You can't use match attendances to say if a game was better or not.

Leinster had the home draw so once a min capacity of 18,000, as per comp rules, was reached they could hold the match wherever they want.

I didn't see the GP final so I can't say what was a better game but its not fair to compare the final matches from both competitions.

Neil Francis rarely has anything worth reading.

ALH-06 wrote: »

The quality / fluidity of a single match doesn't prove anything though.

What does prove a point however is that the GP final had an attendance of 80,000, with a massive, world-class stadium packed to the rafters. Whatever about the quality of players on offer, the ML will have serious status & prestige issues compared to the GP until spectator numbers increase significantly.

The Welsh in particular have got to get on board! They have great teams with great facilities - there's no excuse now...

Peter B

durkadurka wrote: »

I hate the phrase 'jumping on the bandwagon'. It's like you're inferior for starting to support something, or for responding positively to the team's success . Just because you arrived late to the scene you're less of a fan for some reason.

While I hate the "jumping on a bandwagon" phrase there are elements of validity to it. As soon as Irish / Munster / Leinster rugby stops living up to fans expectations it'll be (in most cases) these fans who will give up their support because we're not winning.

In general these fans are also the ones who want to shout during the silence during kicks, because "I paid for my ticket and have a right to do what I want". Also (in most cases) they are the ones migrating from supporting soccer and therefore starting the disrespectful soccer chants at matches. Often these "new" supporters have little or no background in rugby and its because of this the administrators in the sport are looking to change the rules so it makes it easier for the new fans. Is it really worth changing a sport to make it more understandable to new fans?

This is in some way what separates the Magners League from the Premiership. As far as I know they don't have a lot of new "bandwagon" fans who only go to see their team for the big games.

Still on the plus side the bandwagoners have been great for the extra revenue!

mrboswell

Peter B wrote: »

While I hate the "jumping on a bandwagon" phrase there are elements of validity to it. As soon as Irish / Munster / Leinster rugby stops living up to fans expectations it'll be (in most cases) these fans who will give up their support because we're not winning.

In general these fans are also the ones who want to shout during the silence during kicks, because "I paid for my ticket and have a right to do what I want". Also (in most cases) they are the ones migrating from supporting soccer and therefore starting the disrespectful soccer chants at matches. Often these "new" supporters have little or no background in rugby and its because of this the administrators in the sport are looking to change the rules so it makes it easier for the new fans. Is it really worth changing a sport to make it more understandable to new fans?

This is in some way what separates the Magners League from the Premiership. As far as I know they don't have a lot of new "bandwagon" fans who only go to see their team for the big games.

Still on the plus side the bandwagoners have been great for the extra revenue!

All fair points - keep the bandwagoners so long as they do as they are told!!

I remember the HCup semi in Lansdowne in 2003 - Leinster v Perpignan.
Matt Williams called for everyone to come out and support Leinster, which they did. As unfortunate as the result was, even worse was the fact that I was stuck between 2 bunches of plonkers for the whole game.
On one side were 3 guys that kept mentioning that "Leinster's number 7 looked like Dave from 6th year" and on the other side were 4 or 5 girlfriends of lads intently watching the match while the girls waffled on about their new shoes and wanting to know when the match would be over. Nightmare!

From my point of view those are the sort of bandwagoners that we can do without. Or maybe a section can be reserved for them