Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

The "bloated" services sector

  • 24-05-2010 04:04PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭


    We have far too many people involved in useless service jobs that create no wealth ie Marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc

    Surely we need to start moving back to a manufacturing based economy or even towards a more efficient primary sector such as fishing and drilling for oil and gas.

    One of our big problems is not unemployment but rather that too many people are involved in useless activites that are of no benifit to society.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    They pay taxes......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    DidierMc wrote: »
    We have far too many people involved in useless service jobs that create no wealth ie Marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc

    Surely we need to start moving back to a manufacturing based economy or even towards a more efficient primary sector such as fishing and drilling for oil and gas.

    One of our big problems is not unemployment but rather that too many people are involved in useless activites that are of no benifit to society.

    emmmmmmm no

    what we need to do is promote entrepeneurship and innovation so that new start ups begin exporting goods all over the world and bringing other countries wealth to our shores

    the services sector is vital to this type of thing although right now yes im sure it is bloated

    going back 20 years to a manufacturing economy or even further to a farming or fisheries based economy is not a good idea


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭ClayDavis


    Are all non-manufacturing jobs valueless then? How do you define valueless?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    deadtiger wrote: »
    They pay taxes......

    So? If I hired lads to dig a whole in the ground and fill it back up again they would pay tax. It still wouldn't be productive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ClayDavis wrote: »
    Are all non-manufacturing jobs valueless then? How do you define valueless?

    No I never said that. of course you need a service sector. but what I'm saying is that the service sector is far too big and if it continues this way we will begin to run up huge trade deficits like the US did when it moved to an almost entirely service economy.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    DidierMc wrote: »
    So? I I hired lads to dig a whole in the ground and fill it back up again they would pay tax. It still wouldn't be productive.

    if no1 is hiring them they wont get paid, someone is obviously still availing of their services, ie there is a demand so whats the problem?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    if no1 is hiring them they wont get paid, someone is obviously still availing of their services, ie there is a demand so whats the problem?

    Do you not believe a persons labour should be used in a useful way? Or is the purpose of labour just to get paid?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    DidierMc wrote: »
    We have far too many people involved in useless service jobs that create no wealth ie Marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc

    Can you provide some figures to back that up?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Surely we need to start moving back to a manufacturing based economy or even towards a more efficient primary sector such as fishing and drilling for oil and gas.

    Manufacturing, what type. Most manufacturing jobs have moved to low cost economies like Eastern Europe & China. Are we going to drop our costs to compete with those?

    Fishing is being controlled heavily as well due to dwindling fish stocks. I think that might not be a runner either.

    Drilling for Oil and Gas, sure if our government take a larger share of the spoils this time maybe. We have to find the oil/gas fields first.

    Any other ideas?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Do you not believe a persons labour should be used in a useful way? Or is the purpose of labour just to get paid?

    so you want to force people into other areas?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Ideally, yes, a manufacturing economy could potentially make us a lot stronger economically, rather then an economy that's weighted towards tertiary sector employment (which I don't believe ours is right now).
    But you can't just write off every other job out there as useless.....we need a rounded economy, one that involves all sectors, not just manufacturing. I wouldn't call law and financial services useless either - they would still exist in a manufacturing economy, as would sales/advertising etc.
    It's a very sweepng statement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    Can you provide some figures to back that up?

    Well I don't have figures on how much is spent on advertising gloabbally. But I'm sure it's massive. And it's all a complete waste of both capital and labour. What is advertising except convincing people to buy products and services they don't need or want? If a product is good it should be able to sit on a shelf and sell itself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Well I don't have figures on how much is spent on advertising gloabbally. But I'm sure it's massive. And it's all a complete waste of both capital and labour. What is advertising except convincing people to buy products and services they don't need or want? If a product is good it should be able to sit on a shelf and sell itself.

    That is a very broad brush you are painting with.

    So is that every service and every product that's advertised that people don't need? Or do you mean some products and some services?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    deadtiger wrote: »
    That is a very broad brush you are painting with.

    So is that every service and every product that's advertised that people don't need? Or do you mean some products and some services?

    Well give me an example where advertising helps provide people with better and cheaper products?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    People voluntarily set up advertising agencies, other people voluntarily work for them, and other people voluntarily pay them for their services.

    Yet you would seem to prefer a situation where you step in and prevent these people from engaging voluntarily with each other, just so society will resemble your overarching blueprint.

    No thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,406 ✭✭✭Oafley Jones


    deadtiger wrote: »
    Drilling for Oil and Gas, sure if our government take a larger share of the spoils this time maybe. We have to find the oil/gas fields first.


    Not to mention Ireland can't afford to carry out the risk of drilling exploration. Each test drill costs €100million and we've a strike rate of 6%. Not good odds, hence the poor deal the government got with Corrib.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Well I don't have figures on how much is spent on advertising gloabbally...

    Okay, well how about some on the number of people employed in marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc in Ireland?

    Surely you have these given that you claimed:
    DidierMc wrote: »
    We have far too many people involved


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭ClayDavis


    DidierMc wrote: »
    it's all a complete waste of both capital and labour. What is advertising except convincing people to buy products and services they don't need or want? If a product is good it should be able to sit on a shelf and sell itself.

    So, people are not responsible for what they spend their money on? It's all just poor Joe Citizen brainwashed by evil Madison Avenue types? I think it's this sort of abidcation of personal responsibility that got us into the mess we're in now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    Okay, well how about some on the number of people employed in marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc in Ireland?

    Surely you have these given that you claimed:

    I think it's a fair point to say that alot of the jobs in Ireland do not create new wealth but merely change it from one form to another.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Manufacturing is generally low paid low skilled. Marketing/Advertising, legal, and financial are skilled, usually highly paid jobs.

    If the entire 5 million population of Ireland were working in Intel, earning between 25k and 35k a year, the tax take from it would be a hell of a lot less than if the entire population was working as advertising execs earning 70k+. Considering you may more tax the more you earn, the tax take would be double than if everyone was on 35k.

    I dont see where your 'Its wasteful' argument is coming from. If Irish people made the best adverts, then companies from other companies would come here and pay Irish people good salaries to come up with advertising campaigns for them. Some of that money would go into the exchequer, some would go into the economy(If your on 70K then you will spend money on nice things right?), and some would go into savings accounts.

    If instead Irish people were just good for standing on an assembly line, screwing in screws, other companies would go : "The Irish are great on assembly lines, but if we move to India, we can get 5 indians to work, for the cost of one Irish guy so Bangalore he we come!".

    A healthy economy is one where there is not a dependence on any one industry. While the Celtic Tiger was a boom, it wasnt healthy as we had an over dependence on the building industry.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zootroid


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I think it's a fair point to say that alot of the jobs in Ireland do not create new wealth but merely change it from one form to another.

    Please explain


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I think it's a fair point to say that alot of the jobs in Ireland do not create new wealth but merely change it from one form to another.

    Thats how economics works. The movement of money. I cant think of any industry that makes money out of thin air. Apart from the manufacturing of Counterfeit notes that is


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I think it's a fair point to say that alot of the jobs in Ireland do not create new wealth but merely change it from one form to another.

    Yeah, but I wasn't disputing that.

    I was asking for figures to back up your claim that:
    DidierMc wrote: »
    We have far too many people involved in useless service jobs that create no wealth ie Marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    DidierMc wrote: »
    We have far too many people involved in useless service jobs that create no wealth ie Marketing, advertising, sales, law, financial services etc

    Surely we need to start moving back to a manufacturing based economy or even towards a more efficient primary sector such as fishing and drilling for oil and gas.

    One of our big problems is not unemployment but rather that too many people are involved in useless activites that are of no benifit to society.


    Marketing and advertising are a huge industry and companies spend billions every year because without them, believe it or not, even the most ground breaking product will make no money because no one will know what it is or how it can help them.

    And besides, all jobs create wealth to an extent. If you have 500 euros a week coming into your pocket, you can give some of it to a retail outlet in exchange for goods. They in turn could hire more staff. An economy isn't simply an onion where you can strip off layers, it's more like a woven piece of cloth, pull out a thread and the thing will start to unravel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Marketing and advertising are a huge industry and companies spend billions every year because without them, believe it or not, even the most ground breaking product will make no money because no one will know what it is or how it can help them.

    And besides, all jobs create wealth to an extent. If you have 500 euros a week coming into your pocket, you can give some of it to a retail outlet in exchange for goods. They in turn could hire more staff. An economy isn't simply an onion where you can strip off layers, it's more like a woven piece of cloth, pull out a thread and the thing will start to unravel.

    That makes no sense


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    DidierMc wrote: »
    So? If I hired lads to dig a whole in the ground and fill it back up again they would pay tax. It still wouldn't be productive.

    I think the point is that the fact that someone is prepared to pay for that gives it a value. If that service was worthless, you wouldn't pay for it and thus there would be no one doing the job.

    Suppose I set up a service e.g. dog walking. If people pay me enough to live off of from walking their dogs, then it is not for you to say that it is not a productive service. Sure, you could say to the Irish people "walk your own dogs and use the money you save to invest in an iron foundry" but that's not how the system works.

    As regards advertising, Galbraith made the point in the Affluent Society, that advertising increases demand, and while there is a philosophical argument as to whether this artificial demand means we buy useless trinkets etc, on a macro economic level it does provide a benefit.

    Equally, financial services can provide a benefit by ensuring the distribution of wealth into the most productive areas. We have recently seen how this can go wrong, but that is not to say that the service in general is valueless.

    Finally, law is an important part of business. Law can help enforce agreements between parties, collect unpaid debts, prevent anti-competitive practices and provides a mechanism for dealing with criminal conduct. All of that provides, indirectly and directly, a suitable forum for business to be conducted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 763 ✭✭✭alfa beta


    didier - what about services that can be exported?

    I'm a copywriter. I write ad copy and marketing material for a number of UK clients. The money I earn and spend here in the Irish economy is for the most part money that comes from the UK.

    We're not all 'valueless' you know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    I think the point is that the fact that someone is prepared to pay for that gives it a value. If that service was worthless, you wouldn't pay for it and thus there would be no one doing the job.

    Suppose I set up a service e.g. dog walking. If people pay me enough to live off of from walking their dogs, then it is not for you to say that it is not a productive service. Sure, you could say to the Irish people "walk your own dogs and use the money you save to invest in an iron foundry" but that's not how the system works.

    As regards advertising, Galbraith made the point in the Affluent Society, that advertising increases demand, and while there is a philosophical argument as to whether this artificial demand means we buy useless trinkets etc, on a macro economic level it does provide a benefit.

    Equally, financial services can provide a benefit by ensuring the distribution of wealth into the most productive areas. We have recently seen how this can go wrong, but that is not to say that the service in general is valueless.

    Finally, law is an important part of business. Law can help enforce agreements between parties, collect unpaid debts, prevent anti-competitive practices and provides a mechanism for dealing with criminal conduct. All of that provides, indirectly and directly, a suitable forum for business to be conducted.

    You can't build an economy on walking dogs. Walking dogs won't get this country out of recession.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    DidierMc wrote: »
    That makes no sense


    Care to tell me why?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    deadtiger wrote: »
    Manufacturing, what type. Most manufacturing jobs have moved to low cost economies like Eastern Europe & China. Are we going to drop our costs to compete with those?
    No they haven't, Germany was only overtaken as the world number one exporter early this year. Most of the top ten exporters of manufactured goods are developed countries.

    Labour intensive manufacturing will move and has moved to developing countries, capital intensive manufacturing, more technical stuff, is in little danger.


Advertisement