Israel tried to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa

Remy13

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons


"they will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted."

it is great to see such hypocrisy revelaed for the BS it is...

Manic Moran

For the record, there's a little bit of assumption in the article.

"The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons."

Believed. Hmm.

I think there is also an error in one of their statements: "The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads."

The major South African chemical and biological weapons programmes are not known to have started until the 1980s, substantially after the date of the documents. Prior to then, they only had limited capabilities, not particularly suited to missile application. (Making a missile-born warhead is substantially more difficult than an air-delivered one)

Now, that said, Israeli collaboration with South Africa on the subject of nukes is not new. It's been reported as far back as 1977, and it is theorised that the Israelis may have assisted with the production of the nukes that South Africa actually did end up building. Bear in mind that at the time of the documents in question, the South African nuclear weapons program was already well under way.

So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

NTM

amacachi

I would have no problem believing it, but I thought Israel didn't have nuclear weapons. So confusing. :pac:

Cookie_Monster

amacachi wrote: »

I would have no problem believing it, but I thought Israel didn't have nuclear weapons. So confusing. :pac:

they obviously didn't lose them all in the desert when attacking Egypt then :pac:

Nodin

This is old news. Then again, there may be some so young as not to know.

anymore

Manic Moran wrote: »

For the record, there's a little bit of assumption in the article.

"The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons."

Believed. Hmm.

I think there is also an error in one of their statements: "The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads."

The major South African chemical and biological weapons programmes are not known to have started until the 1980s, substantially after the date of the documents. Prior to then, they only had limited capabilities, not particularly suited to missile application. (Making a missile-born warhead is substantially more difficult than an air-delivered one)

Now, that said, Israeli collaboration with South Africa on the subject of nukes is not new. It's been reported as far back as 1977, and it is theorised that the Israelis may have assisted with the production of the nukes that South Africa actually did end up building. Bear in mind that at the time of the documents in question, the South African nuclear weapons program was already well under way.

So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

NTM

For God sakes anubody who knows anything about the world knows S.Africa facilitated Israel whilst it was developing its N.Bomb !
Even RTE reported this in the 70's 80's
These anti israel threads are getting more and more ridiculous.

digme

The real terrorists wear suits haha.

OS119

anymore wrote: »

For God sakes anubody who knows anything about the world knows S.Africa facilitated Israel whilst it was developing its N.Bomb !
Even RTE reported this in the 70's 80's
These anti israel threads are getting more and more ridiculous.

yeah, boring aren't they!

there has been a persistant rumour that there was a joint Israeli/South African Nuclear test in the South Atlantic in the late 70's. can't remember much more than that, or indeed if there was much more than that...

as Anymore says, anyone who was actually alive at the time knew about Israeli/SA military cooperation - everything from rifles, Anti-Tank Guided Weapons and rebuilds/developments of the two countries Mirage fighters were done cooperatively.

i take we've not long to wait for the 'Bears shit in woods - shock!' and 'Rain makes ground wet!' threads...

anymore

OS119 wrote: »

yeah, boring aren't they!

there has been a persistant rumour that there was a joint Israeli/South African Nuclear test in the South Atlantic in the late 70's. can't remember much more than that, or indeed if there was much more than that...

as Anymore says, anyone who was actually alive at the time knew about Israeli/SA military cooperation - everything from rifles, Anti-Tank Guided Weapons and rebuilds/developments of the two countries Mirage fighters were done cooperatively.

i take we've not long to wait for the 'Bears shit in woods - shock!' and 'Rain makes ground wet!' threads...

Absolutely - who doesnt know that South Africa had the bomb ?

For those who dont :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

wes

Not really shocked. It has been known for a while that Israel cooperated with the racist aparthteid regime in South Africa. You know birds of a feathers and all that.

It does show a huge amount of hypocrisy regarding nuclear proliferation by certain Western countries, however.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Not really shocked. It has been known for a while that Israel cooperated with the racist aparthteid regime in South Africa. You know birds of a feathers and all that.

It does show a huge amount of hypocrisy regarding nuclear proliferation by certain Western countries, however.

I wonder if you are aware that some Islamic Terrorist gropus have issued terrorist threats against the Soth African World Cup because of some innocous cartoon shown in a South African paper - reported in Sunday Times ?

nacho libre

anymore wrote: »

I wonder if you are aware that some Islamic Terrorist gropus have issued terrorist threats against the Soth African World Cup because of some innocous cartoon shown in a South African paper - reported in Sunday Times ?

...but miss look at him!!!

will we ever move beyond the playground tactic?

is it not possible to find both unacceptable?

anymore

nacho libre wrote: »

...but miss look at him!!!

will we ever move beyond the playground tactic?

is it not possible to find both unacceptable?

The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !

Thirdfox

anymore wrote: »

The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !

So you would be fine with Iran having nukes (if it wanted them - contrary to what its President publicly has stated) or others such as N. Korea and well the whole Middle East?

And as for people who don't know - plenty of people born in the late 80's/early 90's might not know of this. It certainly came as news to me. Though as the BBC states - it is not conclusive proof.

dlofnep

Manic Moran wrote: »

So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

Well - it is newsworthy as evidence for such reports is now available on an official level, from South African government documents.

Israel and it's supporter(s) (United States), try hard, often with great success with the support of the media, at painting Israel as a moral nation, while in the same hand - point the finger at Iran's nuclear ambitions. The hypocrisy of it all is disturbing.

Why is the United States pressing for sanctions on Iran, when it knows that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons and engaged in arms & nuclear deals with an apartheid South-Africa? Why does the United States continue to press for sanctions on Iran, but routinely attempts to block sanctions against Israel?

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

Well - it is newsworthy as evidence for such reports is now available on an official level, from South African government documents.

Israel and it's supporter(s) (United States), try hard, often with great success with the support of the media, at painting Israel as a moral nation, while in the same hand - point the finger at Iran's nuclear ambitions. The hypocrisy of it all is disturbing.

Why is the United States pressing for sanctions on Iran, when it knows that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons and engaged in arms & nuclear deals with an apartheid South-Africa? Why does the United States continue to press for sanctions on Iran, but routinely attempts to block sanctions against Israel?

Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide - in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has, as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.
And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb.

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide

Look - I wouldn't trust Israel to bring my dog for a walk. Let alone, be responsible enough to have nuclear weapons. While I don't think that Israel would actually use a nuclear weapon - I don't think it's the kind of country that can be "relied upon" for anything. Their track record on human rights abuses speaks for itself.

anymore wrote: »

- in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has

No it doesn't.

anymore wrote: »

, as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.

The last one being?

anymore wrote: »

And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb.

There is no evidence to suggest that Iran is building a nuclear weapon.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Look - I wouldn't trust Israel to bring my dog for a walk. Let alone, be responsible enough to have nuclear weapons. While I don't think that Israel would actually use a nuclear weapon - I don't think it's the kind of country that can be "relied upon" for anything. Their track record on human rights abuses speaks for itself.



No it doesn't.



The last one being?



There is no evidence to suggest that Iran is building a nuclear weapon.

This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
Being dragged into every thread lately.

anymore

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
Being dragged into every thread lately.

Hmm !
We could use a little assistance from that dog on the passport thread !

dlofnep

So are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to trade secret handshakes with FlutterinBantam.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
Being dragged into every thread lately.

I'll give you that you, for being creative for once.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !

anymore wrote: »

Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide - in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has, as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.

The Apartheid regime was one of the more disgusting of the 20th century. Part of its research included looking into racially targeted chemical/biological weaponry. Whats to say that Israel would not engage with another similarily vile regime if it suited its purposes?

anymore wrote: »

And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb. !

...and I suppose we might presume the majority of Arab countries don't want Israel to have it either.

Manic Moran

Part of its research included looking into racially targeted chemical/biological weaponry.

Out of academic interest, I wonder if they had any success? I can't think of how they could have, but just wondering.

NTM

Thirdfox

Genetically coded weaponary is certainly an option to research into nowadays - be that for a wide "all Asians" or individual "target Osama bin Laden" type of virus. It would be easier to create an individual coded weapon rather than a broad one though I would imagine.

Laboratories around the world are probably looking into this though I doubt anyone would be okay with using such a weapon at this moment in time - predator drone strikes being so contentious already.

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

Out of academic interest, I wonder if they had any success? I can't think of how they could have, but just wondering.

NTM

None, which probably distressed them greatly, as can be imagined.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/110947.stm

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

So are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to trade secret handshakes with FlutterinBantam.

See my previous posts !

dlofnep

You appear to have severe problems with reading basic English. I didn't ask you about Gerry Adams, Sinn Féin or the IRA. Moreover, this is a thread about the discussion of Israel dealing in Nuclear weapons to an Apartheid state. (AKA: Reported for going off-topic)

Perhaps you can answer the following. (Pay attention)

• When did Iran threaten Israel with genocide (Noting that Iran never threatened to wipe Israel off the map)
• When did Iran last threaten Israel (I can provide many threats however for Israel threatening Iran)
• Where is your evidence that Iran is building nuclear weapons.

dlofnep

Ah, I see you've wisely edited your post.

Now, that you've decided to grace us with getting back on topic, perhaps you can answer the above questions.

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah, I see you've wisely edited your post.

Now, that you've decided to grace us with getting back on topic, perhaps you can answer the above questions.

I decided it is inapproprpaite to discuss human rights on some occasions.

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

I decided it is inapproprpaite to discuss human rights on some occasions.

No, you decided that your tantrum about Sinn Féin was completely off-topic, and edited it when I called you on it.

Now - Answer my questions?

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

No, you decided that your tantrum about Sinn Féin was completely off-topic, and edited it when I called you on it.

Now - Answer my questions?

I didnt see your comments before editing . I edited because I dont think it appropriate to use the words Sinn Fein and Human Rights in the same sentence.

dlofnep

Yeah, whatever.

Now how about you answer my questions. I've only asked you 3 times.

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

Yeah, whatever.

Now how about you answer my questions. I've only asked you 3 times.

How many times have Sinn fein TDs refused to answer questions about the activities of its President ?

dlofnep

I take that as a no - You can't answer my questions.

Scofflaw

anymore wrote: »

How many times have Sinn fein TDs refused to answer questions about the activities of its President ?

I refer you to an earlier warning I gave you about this kind of tactic. Banned for a week, and next time it will be permanent.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Manic Moran

dlofnep wrote: »

No, you decided that your tantrum about Sinn Féin was completely off-topic, and edited it when I called you on it.

I didnt see your comments before editing . I edited because I dont think it appropriate to use the words Sinn Fein and Human Rights in the same sentence.

Yeah, whatever

For the record, the only post edited by Anymore on this thread was edited at 14:37, and your as-yet unedited post 'calling him on it' was posted at 14:43. So unless he was in posession of a time machine, or you shot him an email or PM prior to posting, your perspective on the exchange is incorrect.

NTM

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

Look - I wouldn't trust Israel to bring my dog for a walk.

You support Sinn Fein/IRA, an organisation that tried to subvert the state of the Republic of Ireland for several decades, I wouldn't trust you to bring my dog for a walk. If I had a dog.

BlaasForRafa

anymore wrote: »

See my previous posts !

I wonder is there some news story that Iran wants to point attention away from this week? thats whats usually going on when theres an upsurge in frivilous anti-Israeli threads.

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You support Sinn Fein/IRA, an organisation that tried to subvert the state of the Republic of Ireland for several decades, I wouldn't trust you to bring my dog for a walk. If I had a dog.

And this has what to do with Israel selling nuclear weapons to South Africa?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I wonder is there some news story that Iran wants to point attention away from this week? thats whats usually going on when theres an upsurge in frivilous anti-Israeli threads.

So your trying to blame this on Iran? Um, the information came from the current South African government, who aren't really bothered about protecting an apartheid era ally of the old regime. I think it absurd to try and blame Iran on the release of this information.

Jumpy

anymore wrote: »

Absolutely - who doesnt know that South Africa had the bomb ?

For those who dont :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

I wasnt going to click on that link, because in Firefox it shortens to "Ass destruction"

Remy13

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

thats whats usually going on when theres an upsurge in frivilous anti-Israeli threads.

so discussing officially released government documents is an "upsurge in frivilous anti-Israeli" sentiment? do u consider anything that paints Israel in a bad light to be anti-Israeli and not worthy of examination? what a bizarre attitude if true!

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I wonder is there some news story that Iran wants to point attention away from this week? thats whats usually going on when theres an upsurge in frivilous anti-Israeli threads.

It's not at all frivolous. This is the first documentation to emerge that confirms Israels nuclear status, this on the week that Mordechai Vanunu has been sent down again
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10145852.stm