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Israel tried to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    For the record, there's a little bit of assumption in the article.

    "The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons."

    Believed. Hmm.

    I think there is also an error in one of their statements: "The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads."

    The major South African chemical and biological weapons programmes are not known to have started until the 1980s, substantially after the date of the documents. Prior to then, they only had limited capabilities, not particularly suited to missile application. (Making a missile-born warhead is substantially more difficult than an air-delivered one)

    Now, that said, Israeli collaboration with South Africa on the subject of nukes is not new. It's been reported as far back as 1977, and it is theorised that the Israelis may have assisted with the production of the nukes that South Africa actually did end up building. Bear in mind that at the time of the documents in question, the South African nuclear weapons program was already well under way.

    So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    I would have no problem believing it, but I thought Israel didn't have nuclear weapons. So confusing. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,639 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    amacachi wrote: »
    I would have no problem believing it, but I thought Israel didn't have nuclear weapons. So confusing. :pac:

    they obviously didn't lose them all in the desert when attacking Egypt then :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    This is old news. Then again, there may be some so young as not to know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    For the record, there's a little bit of assumption in the article.

    "The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons."

    Believed. Hmm.

    I think there is also an error in one of their statements: "The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads."

    The major South African chemical and biological weapons programmes are not known to have started until the 1980s, substantially after the date of the documents. Prior to then, they only had limited capabilities, not particularly suited to missile application. (Making a missile-born warhead is substantially more difficult than an air-delivered one)

    Now, that said, Israeli collaboration with South Africa on the subject of nukes is not new. It's been reported as far back as 1977, and it is theorised that the Israelis may have assisted with the production of the nukes that South Africa actually did end up building. Bear in mind that at the time of the documents in question, the South African nuclear weapons program was already well under way.

    So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

    NTM
    For God sakes anubody who knows anything about the world knows S.Africa facilitated Israel whilst it was developing its N.Bomb !
    Even RTE reported this in the 70's 80's :D
    These anti israel threads are getting more and more ridiculous.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    The real terrorists wear suits haha.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    anymore wrote: »
    For God sakes anubody who knows anything about the world knows S.Africa facilitated Israel whilst it was developing its N.Bomb !
    Even RTE reported this in the 70's 80's :D
    These anti israel threads are getting more and more ridiculous.

    yeah, boring aren't they!

    there has been a persistant rumour that there was a joint Israeli/South African Nuclear test in the South Atlantic in the late 70's. can't remember much more than that, or indeed if there was much more than that...

    as Anymore says, anyone who was actually alive at the time knew about Israeli/SA military cooperation - everything from rifles, Anti-Tank Guided Weapons and rebuilds/developments of the two countries Mirage fighters were done cooperatively.

    i take we've not long to wait for the 'Bears shit in woods - shock!' and 'Rain makes ground wet!' threads...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    OS119 wrote: »
    yeah, boring aren't they!

    there has been a persistant rumour that there was a joint Israeli/South African Nuclear test in the South Atlantic in the late 70's. can't remember much more than that, or indeed if there was much more than that...

    as Anymore says, anyone who was actually alive at the time knew about Israeli/SA military cooperation - everything from rifles, Anti-Tank Guided Weapons and rebuilds/developments of the two countries Mirage fighters were done cooperatively.

    i take we've not long to wait for the 'Bears shit in woods - shock!' and 'Rain makes ground wet!' threads...

    Absolutely - who doesnt know that South Africa had the bomb ?

    For those who dont :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Not really shocked. It has been known for a while that Israel cooperated with the racist aparthteid regime in South Africa. You know birds of a feathers and all that.

    It does show a huge amount of hypocrisy regarding nuclear proliferation by certain Western countries, however.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    wes wrote: »
    Not really shocked. It has been known for a while that Israel cooperated with the racist aparthteid regime in South Africa. You know birds of a feathers and all that.

    It does show a huge amount of hypocrisy regarding nuclear proliferation by certain Western countries, however.

    I wonder if you are aware that some Islamic Terrorist gropus have issued terrorist threats against the Soth African World Cup because of some innocous cartoon shown in a South African paper - reported in Sunday Times ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,831 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    anymore wrote: »
    I wonder if you are aware that some Islamic Terrorist gropus have issued terrorist threats against the Soth African World Cup because of some innocous cartoon shown in a South African paper - reported in Sunday Times ?

    ...but miss look at him!!!

    will we ever move beyond the playground tactic?

    is it not possible to find both unacceptable?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    ...but miss look at him!!!

    will we ever move beyond the playground tactic?

    is it not possible to find both unacceptable?

    The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,105 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    anymore wrote: »
    The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !

    So you would be fine with Iran having nukes (if it wanted them - contrary to what its President publicly has stated) or others such as N. Korea and well the whole Middle East?

    And as for people who don't know - plenty of people born in the late 80's/early 90's might not know of this. It certainly came as news to me. Though as the BBC states - it is not conclusive proof.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    So in all, were the Israelis helping the South Africans with nukes? Yes, probably. Is this news? No, not really.

    Well - it is newsworthy as evidence for such reports is now available on an official level, from South African government documents.

    Israel and it's supporter(s) (United States), try hard, often with great success with the support of the media, at painting Israel as a moral nation, while in the same hand - point the finger at Iran's nuclear ambitions. The hypocrisy of it all is disturbing.

    Why is the United States pressing for sanctions on Iran, when it knows that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons and engaged in arms & nuclear deals with an apartheid South-Africa? Why does the United States continue to press for sanctions on Iran, but routinely attempts to block sanctions against Israel?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well - it is newsworthy as evidence for such reports is now available on an official level, from South African government documents.

    Israel and it's supporter(s) (United States), try hard, often with great success with the support of the media, at painting Israel as a moral nation, while in the same hand - point the finger at Iran's nuclear ambitions. The hypocrisy of it all is disturbing.

    Why is the United States pressing for sanctions on Iran, when it knows that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons and engaged in arms & nuclear deals with an apartheid South-Africa? Why does the United States continue to press for sanctions on Iran, but routinely attempts to block sanctions against Israel?

    Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide - in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has, as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.
    And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    anymore wrote: »
    Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide

    Look - I wouldn't trust Israel to bring my dog for a walk. Let alone, be responsible enough to have nuclear weapons. While I don't think that Israel would actually use a nuclear weapon - I don't think it's the kind of country that can be "relied upon" for anything. Their track record on human rights abuses speaks for itself.
    anymore wrote: »
    - in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has

    No it doesn't.
    anymore wrote: »
    , as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.

    The last one being?
    anymore wrote: »
    And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb.

    There is no evidence to suggest that Iran is building a nuclear weapon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Look - I wouldn't trust Israel to bring my dog for a walk. Let alone, be responsible enough to have nuclear weapons. While I don't think that Israel would actually use a nuclear weapon - I don't think it's the kind of country that can be "relied upon" for anything. Their track record on human rights abuses speaks for itself.



    No it doesn't.



    The last one being?



    There is no evidence to suggest that Iran is building a nuclear weapon.


    This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
    Being dragged into every thread lately.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
    Being dragged into every thread lately.

    Hmm !
    We could use a little assistance from that dog on the passport thread !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    So are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to trade secret handshakes with FlutterinBantam.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    This dog must have it's legs worn to stumps at this stage.
    Being dragged into every thread lately.

    I'll give you that you, for being creative for once. ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    The successful attempts by South Africa and Israel to develop nuclear armswere not actulaly ' wrong' ! Nobody has some kind of moral monooly that allows some nations to have nucelar weapons ' legitimately' but makes the holding of nuclear weapons morally 'wrong' !
    anymore wrote: »
    Because israel is the kind of country who can be relied upon not to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide - in fact it has not got the aim of commiting genocide against any country whereas iran has, as you know pointed out its malevolent intentions towards israel on a few occassions.

    The Apartheid regime was one of the more disgusting of the 20th century. Part of its research included looking into racially targeted chemical/biological weaponry. Whats to say that Israel would not engage with another similarily vile regime if it suited its purposes?
    anymore wrote: »
    And as we know the majority of Arab countries absolutely do not want iran to have the bomb. !

    ...and I suppose we might presume the majority of Arab countries don't want Israel to have it either.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Part of its research included looking into racially targeted chemical/biological weaponry.

    Out of academic interest, I wonder if they had any success? I can't think of how they could have, but just wondering.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,105 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Genetically coded weaponary is certainly an option to research into nowadays - be that for a wide "all Asians" or individual "target Osama bin Laden" type of virus. It would be easier to create an individual coded weapon rather than a broad one though I would imagine.

    Laboratories around the world are probably looking into this though I doubt anyone would be okay with using such a weapon at this moment in time - predator drone strikes being so contentious already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Out of academic interest, I wonder if they had any success? I can't think of how they could have, but just wondering.

    NTM

    None, which probably distressed them greatly, as can be imagined.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/110947.stm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to trade secret handshakes with FlutterinBantam.

    See my previous posts !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    You appear to have severe problems with reading basic English. I didn't ask you about Gerry Adams, Sinn Féin or the IRA. Moreover, this is a thread about the discussion of Israel dealing in Nuclear weapons to an Apartheid state. (AKA: Reported for going off-topic)

    Perhaps you can answer the following. (Pay attention)
    • When did Iran threaten Israel with genocide (Noting that Iran never threatened to wipe Israel off the map)
    • When did Iran last threaten Israel (I can provide many threats however for Israel threatening Iran)
    • Where is your evidence that Iran is building nuclear weapons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Ah, I see you've wisely edited your post.

    Now, that you've decided to grace us with getting back on topic, perhaps you can answer the above questions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Ah, I see you've wisely edited your post.

    Now, that you've decided to grace us with getting back on topic, perhaps you can answer the above questions.
    I decided it is inapproprpaite to discuss human rights on some occasions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    anymore wrote: »
    I decided it is inapproprpaite to discuss human rights on some occasions.

    No, you decided that your tantrum about Sinn Féin was completely off-topic, and edited it when I called you on it.

    Now - Answer my questions?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, you decided that your tantrum about Sinn Féin was completely off-topic, and edited it when I called you on it.

    Now - Answer my questions?

    I didnt see your comments before editing . I edited because I dont think it appropriate to use the words Sinn Fein and Human Rights in the same sentence.


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