Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Michael Moores "Capitalism, a love story"

  • 23-05-2010 11:12AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭


    anyone catch this on E4 last night, no doubt MM portrays everything in an extreme light however considering all the factural evidence presented in the documentary it certainly gave me food for thought.
    It was a story of cheap credit, property bubbles, repossesions, government collusion with the financial sector and massive bank bailouts. The greater theme was the erosion of the US workers rights to finance the lifestyle of the top 1% and attempts to portray any change as the socialist/communist threat .
    Very interesting and entertaining movie and worth a watch


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I didn't catch it but honestly, I have no respect for that man. What he did to Charlton Heston says it all about him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    Yeah saw the last hour of it. I find him a bit annoying at this stage but his points are valid- when you adjust the $ for inflation the working class in the US are worse off now then they were 30 years ago.

    Capital always has direct access to lobby government in a crisis, workers don't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I didn't catch it but honestly, I have no respect for that man. What he did to Charlton Heston says it all about him.

    what did he do?

    its a decent doc but you have to know were he is coming from he is effectively like the fox of the left

    which is fine as he does make good points but its so extreme that alot of it cant be taken seriously


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    how long before this becomes a michael moore Ad hominem slagging match?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    how long before this becomes a michael moore Ad hominem slagging match?

    so your a big fan?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    what did he do?

    its a decent doc but you have to know were he is coming from he is effectively like the fox of the left

    which is fine as he does make good points but its so extreme that alot of it cant be taken seriously

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1iuEcu7O50

    That's the interview. I'd also add that Charlton Heston was suffering from cancer at this point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    how long before this becomes a michael moore Ad hominem slagging match?

    A fair question - but on the other hand, short of people checking Moore's assertions for themselves, the credibility of the messenger is the credibility of the message. It's therefore useful up to a point - past that point, it becomes off-topic, and will be treated as such.

    Mind you, assertions that the US working class have not gained in recent years - or have actually lost in terms of real wages - are entirely credible:

    wolff_real_wages.jpg

    If it is the case that economies have expanded, while real wages for the working classes have not risen, then it follows that the policies of recent years have been aimed at the benefit of higher earners. Whether one thinks that's right or not is a question of political stance - but the usual argument given for increasing the remuneration of high earners (that they create jobs and drive the economy) becomes rather obviously meaningless if they are then the only ones who benefit from it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    RichardAnd wrote: »

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1iuEcu7O50

    That's the interview. I'd also add that Charlton Heston was suffering from cancer at this point.

    i was about to reply i have no problem with that interview until he whipped out the picture pretty out of line alright

    i also have a problem with editing very smart people when they are asked a complicated question to make it look like they dont know what they are talking about and he did that alot in capatilism


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Madd Finn


    RichardAnd wrote: »

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1iuEcu7O50

    That's the interview. I'd also add that Charlton Heston was suffering from cancer at this point.


    I thought it was the early stages of Alzheimer's.

    Which Moore was not to know at that stage.

    Fair play to Heston. He argued his convictions with Moore, but as figurehead for the NRA it can hardly be deemed unfair to ask him to defend those points of view.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ...and that's enough about the Charlton Heston interview.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    Amazon.Com Link: Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man

    Amazon.com Review
    Someone was bound to go after Michael Moore eventually and this book holds nothing back. An immensely popular figure to political left-wingers, Michael Moore presents himself as a regular working-class guy in a baseball cap with the courage to take some rich and powerful folks to task for their corrupt and deceitful ways. David T. Hardy and Jason Clarke say this populist, muckraker image is pure whitewash. Believing that this charade has gone on for too long, and done too much damage to the U.S., they have written this book to expose Moore as narcissistic and irresponsible and his body of work "as manipulative as totalitarian propaganda." To prove their point, they pick apart Moore's books and movies to illustrate how he is consistently manipulative, dishonest, and, at times, simply absurd. They show how he altered the timeline of Roger and Me in order to unfairly blame things on General Motors that happened before their layoffs, not as a result of them. Regarding Bowling for Columbine, the authors explain how he took quotes out of context and reassembled them to give the impression that people made speeches they did not make---most famously his interview with Charlton Heston, then president of the NRA. They also illustrate how Moore manipulated statistics in his books Dude, Where’s My Country and Stupid White Men to fit his theories, making some truly outrageous claims in the process. The authors have certainly done their homework, and it's impossible to view Moore's work the same way after reading this book. "How does a man with so many contradictions manage to blind his enormous trove of followers to how hypocritical he really is? How does he get away with it?" they ask. If the authors have their way, he won't much longer. Now that Moore has joined the ranks of the rich and powerful, Hardy and Clarke have engaged in bit of muckraking of their own. --Shawn Carkonen
    Product Description
    Watching Michael Moore in action -- passing off manipulating facts in Bowling for Columbine, spinning statistics in Stupid White Men and Dude, Where's My Country?, shamelessly grandstanding at the Academy Awards, and epitomizing the hypocrisy he's made a king's fortune railing against -- has spurred authors David T. Hardy and Jason Clarke to take action into their own hands. In Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man, Hardy and Clarke dish it back hard to the fervent prophet of the far left, turning a careful eye on Moore's use of camera tricks and publicity ploys to present his own version of the truth.

    Postwar documentarians gave us the documentary, Rob Reiner gave us the mockumentary, and Moore initiated a third genre, the crockumentary.

    How, they ask, does Moore pull off a proletarian, "man-of-the-people" image so at odds with his lifestyle as a fabulously wealthy Manhattanite? And how large of an impact do his incendiary, ill-founded polemics have on the growing community that follows him with near-religious devotion? Loaded with well-researched, solidly reasoned arguments, and laced with irreverent wit, Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man fires back at one of the left's biggest targets -- politically and literally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The_Thing wrote: »
    Amazon.Com Link: Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man

    Amazon.com Review

    Are people even vaguely capable of discussing the documentary?

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    that the US working class have not gained in recent years - or have actually lost in terms of real wages - are entirely credible:

    Yes, but there are reasons not always to do with right wing philosophy for that. In general it should be in the interests of capitalism to make workers richer, since workers are also consumers. So what happened in the last generation - a number of factors.

    1) Women working. That increased the labour pool by 100% (EDIT: of course not. Probably 80-90%). It does mean that those statistics are somewhat misleading however. think about median household income if the female population earns 60%, 70%, or 80% of the male equivalent. The household therefore is 160%,170%, 180% richer than the 70's. ( I am assuming median here).
    2) Immigration. There is something that Moor is not going to mention. however if you increase the pool of labour you will decrease it's cost.
    3) Outsourcing: Bet he didn't spend much time on that either. Increases in wages are less likely if high-paid jobs are out-sourced. However what ideological group is opposed to that? The Left would cry racism if the West, or America introduced more protectionism.

    What capitalism has done in the last generation is spread the wealth around the world at the cost of once high earning Western societies.



    If it is the case that economies have expanded, while real wages for the working classes have not risen, then it follows that the policies of recent years have been aimed at the benefit of higher earners. Whether one thinks that's right or not is a question of political stance - but the usual argument given for increasing the remuneration of high earners (that they create jobs and drive the economy) becomes rather obviously meaningless if they are then the only ones who benefit from it.

    Well, I dunno what you mean by High Earners. Workers? Capitalists? Is the graph a graph of median or average real wage - if the latter then the high earners are included.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭murraymarmalade


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    so your a big fan?
    i am. i love his work and have great admiration for him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I didn't catch it but honestly, I have no respect for that man. What he did to Charlton Heston says it all about him.

    Not excusing selective editing but Charlton Heston is hardly the moral standard considering some of his NRA comments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    I've both watched and read a lot about the causes of the global recession and the subsequent attempts to redress same. Whilst I wouldn't agree with a lot of Moore's views and whilst clearly inherently biased, the documentary asks some good questions. It's worth a look. It's too easy and fashionable at the moment to dismiss Moore's work completely.

    Now a Michael Moore documentary on NAMA with Bertie, Brian Cowen and our esteemed bankers - that would be interesting!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Now a Michael Moore documentary on NAMA with Bertie, Brian Cowen and our esteemed bankers - that would be interesting!

    Now that would be something to behold. Infact any decent documentary film maker from outside Ireland and not making the piece under the wings of RTE and their innate fear of annoying the government would make for very interesting and painful viewing.

    Watched the end of Capitalism and like all Moores work found it provide very interesting food for thought (you always have to temper that with his sometimes skewed way of presenting things). Didn't realise the extremely close connections that the US administration and treasury department have with Goldman Sachs, that surely is extremely worrying not only for the US taxpayers but also for competing organisations to Goldman in the States and Globally.

    Also found it sad to see the optimism that people had when Obama was elected. I wonder how they feel now because in reality nothing much has changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Not excusing selective editing but Charlton Heston is hardly the moral standard considering some of his NRA comments.


    Probably right but the fact is that he more or less verbally assaulted an aged old man who was kind enough to invite him into his home.

    But it's not just that, every time I see him interviewing people I just get the feeling that he is selecting bits and pieces of what they say to suit his own agenda. There was a war veteran from Iraq who lost his arms but who was proud to have served his nation, injury or not. Moore twisted his interview to say that the man was angry at America and saw the war as pointless.

    I have no time for people who twist things. The truth is the most important thing in the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I have no time for people who twist things. The truth is the most important thing in the world.

    I hope you are not naive enough to think that Moore is the only person that twists things. Everything you read in the papers or watch on the television is twisted or spun or is edited selectively to suit whatever agenda they are trying to put across.

    I always try and read about news or stories from several different sources. For example during the Iraq war not only did I rely on the Irish media, I did check Fox News and Al Jazeera among others as well.

    You are right the truth is important it just sometimes you have to wade through several different versions of the truth to come to your own conclusions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    I see him interviewing people I just get the feeling that he is selecting bits and pieces of what they say to suit his own agenda.

    In one of his movies: he quoted from a George Bush roast - where he was joking about himself as taking from the Have-Not to the Haves - as if it were a serious discussion to a normal meeting. This out of context stuff is a right pain in the ass. Anybody who gets interviewed by the guy should tape the entire conversation and out it online.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    For example during the Iraq war not only did I rely on the Irish media, I did check Fox News and Al Jazeera.

    Yeah, good idea. However I think Moore actually takes answers out of context so much that the changes the answer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    deadtiger wrote: »
    I hope you are not naive enough to think that Moore is the only person that twists things. Everything you read in the papers or watch on the television is twisted or spun or is edited selectively to suit whatever agenda they are trying to put across.

    I always try and read about news or stories from several different sources. For example during the Iraq war not only did I rely on the Irish media, I did check Fox News and Al Jazeera among others as well.

    You are right the truth is important it just sometimes you have to wade through several different versions of the truth to come to your own conclusions.


    Of course I am not. We live in a world where most people not only lie, but where most can not even tell where lies stop and the truth begins.

    Even well intentioned people can inadvertently twist the truth because if trying to come to a conclusion it's very easy to pull a pair of tinted glasses over one's eyes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Pittens wrote: »
    Yeah, good idea. However I think Moore actually takes answers out of context so much that the changes the answer.

    TBH Moore makes some good points and I agree sometimes he actually searches out ways to empathise those points and does stray over the boundaries.

    However compared to Fox News he is an amateur. Their idea of a debate is laughable.

    Again as I say you shouldn't take whatever anyone says in the media as being gospel. Always find alternative views. Overall I thought the piece on Channel4 last put some very interesting questions out there especially about the impartiality of the US Treasury. I disliked his questioning of people outside Wall Street and the way he turned up to make a citizens arrest. That was cringe-worthy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Thought the documentary was good as long as you allow for bias. But it did raise some very interesting points/facts, especially regarding the Treasury and Goldman Sachs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    i am. i love his work and have great admiration for him.

    fair enough but you dont see anything wrong with his style of 'journalism'?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    deadtiger wrote: »
    However compared to Fox News he is an amateur. Their idea of a debate is laughable.

    im as much a hater of fox as the next man but you dont get to justify the same practices on the other side because of them

    two wrongs dont make a right

    micheal moore makes some good points and there is alot of good points in capitalism a love story and its great for provoking debate between friends(particularly mine as we are quite polarised) but there is equal amounts of absolute tripe in there too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭saywhatyousee


    that dead peasants part was awful shows how much banks think of us:mad::mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    that dead peasants part was awful shows how much banks think of us:mad::mad:

    And the employers who took out that insurance as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭rasper


    to me what was most interesting was the similarities to a point where our banks hyper inflated our economy by loaning too much to the developers and then too much to the buyers to buy it , then the inevitable happens caused by ironically the sub prime crisis in the US, the massive debt is offloaded to the tax payer while the people reponsible for incalculatable hardships retire on massive pensions and the millions they've squirreled away


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭scr123


    Due to a rare occasion, a night out, missed the MM Doc. Local XtraVision have a copy so will see it this week.
    Off topic a bit but related was a link someone posted on this Board some weeks ago about the creation of Debt. Link was posted late at night as I was going to bed but stayed up to watch it. Was very good but tiredness got to me and I forgot to bookmark it to watch again. Anyone remember what thread it appeared ?


Advertisement