Garda Shooting in Cork

1922

maglite wrote: »

What I would have found interesting though is the shot placement and indeed the weapon of choice. But I suppose as I was not there it’s going to be hard for me to criticise or speculate.

centre body mass??? correct place to shoot

meathstevie

No matter what the situation, when a member of a police service in a European democracy uses potentially lethal force there's two questions that need an answer.

1. Was the use of force necessary to prevent the loss of life or serious injury to either the police officers on the scene or members of the public ?

2. Was the use of force proportionate to the treath ?

If you can answer yes to both questions you have the problem solved

TheNog

Deleted User wrote: »

Whilst I respect your opinion and thoughts regarding this, I still fully feel that the man got what was coming to him.

If I went to a public place with a shotgun, aimed at innocent people and ignored an AGS request to drop the shotgun, I would expect to be shot.

From also flicking through the thread regarding this incident in After Hours, it would appear that I'm not alone in thinking such.


But I would also like to stress that I'm not trying to say that I feel the guy himself should die or never eat properly again or whatever. I don't know him. For all I know, he could be a former Garda himself, and an upstanding citizen who has never committed a crime before. For all I know, the Garda that shot him, could be a complete ass who has been wanting to lace someone with bullets since he got into a uniform.

I don't know any of that stuff. What I do know, is that a man went to a pub with a shotgun, refused to drop it when AGS arrived, and got shot in the stomache.

One of the reasons this brings a smile to my face is because it shows that AGS will shoot. RSU should not be a common sight, and when they do show up, they should be a zero-tolerance approach.

That zero tolerance approach is what happened in this shooting. It shows that AGS will shoot you. They have potential to kill you and they have no issue doing so. That, I believe, is exactly the message that needs to be sent out to people.


The judicial system of Ireland is a waste of time and filled with slap-on-the-wrist punishments. People know that they don't have to worry about going in front of a Judge because, unless they were behind the Holocaust, they'll be told to wise up and be let on their way.

At least, if AGS are seen to be taking a hardline stance against it, then some scumbags somewhere might cop on. I live in a dirtball estate, filled with scumbags. My sister, whom I loathe, is one of these scumbags. She has committed more crimes than I could count. From petty things like shoplifting to biting a Garda's arm. Over the past 21 years of my life, I have learned that there is absolutely no fear of AGS or going to court with these people.


It's unfortunate that this event even had to unfold, but someone had to be made an example of.


Some people might think that I'm a complete scumbag myself for making such comments, and that's fine. But my opinion on this matter will not change.

I don't like to see anyone getting hurt, but if someone sets out with the intention of hurting other people, then I firmly believe that person should have the worst possible outcome of any scenario he starts.

I think your post is advocating street justice similar to what is dished out by criminals which, as a contributer to this forum from its inception, I find disturbing and most certainly not suited to this forum. It may be ok for After Hours but here I dont find it acceptable. This is a forum for Emergency Services who dedicate themselves to protect life so to say "he deserved what he got" goes against everything we stand for.

The armed section of AGS are there to combat threats in a professional manner which can range from negiotation to lethal means. From time to time it may be necessary to shoot a person but it is never done because they deserved it.

MagicSean

Didn't the man go there with a loaded shotgun to find a particular employee? One can only imagine what street justice he had in mind. From what I have read so far it seems to be a text book case for the use of a firearm. I haven't read anything about where he got the weapon though. If he was on temp release from prison I would hope it wasn't his own licenced firearm.

monkeysox

KKV

Where should I start...
You have ignored several "warning shots" yourself here in the above discussion, senior members of this forum and mods have subtly told you that your comments are a little out of order.
Sure, you are entitled to your opinion and healthy discussion is encouraged. However, it's the way you say it that I find offensive...

"One of the reasons this brings a smile to my face is because it shows that AGS will shoot. RSU should not be a common sight, and when they do show up, they should be a zero-tolerance approach."
Why does a member of the public being shot by the Gardai bring a smile to your face? Do you think this is a healthy reaction?


"That zero tolerance approach is what happened in this shooting. It shows that AGS will shoot you. They have potential to kill you and they have no issue doing so."
Do you think the Gardai don't have an issue with shooting someone? Would the RSU officers involved in this incident agree with you?
.

"scumbags...dirtball estate...filled with scumbags... My sister, whom I loathe..." Your attitude stinks!

"Over the past 21 years of my life..." I'm guessing thats it, 21 years!

"someone had to be made an example of." ...NO, that was not the intention


"Some people might think that I'm a complete scumbag myself for making such comments, and that's fine." ..... you said it kid!

Your anger and personalisation of your feelings towards this situation shows me that you are not suited to this line of work. As said in a previous post, your comments are not appropriate in an Emergency Services forum.

pat58

He got off lightly, in most other CIVILISED countries a sniper would plased in position,and he would have being taken down with more than likely a 300 win mag and would have no chance of survival by the fact he walked into a crowed place with a loaded fire arm,in my oppinion he lost his right to be treated with kindness and respect ,what did he expect,do peopel realise what damage and death can be caused by a fire arm at close range or any range, just my 2cents

sdanseo

monkeysox wrote: »

You have ignored several "warning shots" yourself here in the above discussion, senior members of this forum and mods have subtly told you that your comments are a little out of order.

In fairness a quick look tells us he has the most contributions of anyone in the thread albeit if he hasn't been here nearly as long. His opinion is flawed, but not without value.

monkeysox wrote: »

I'm guessing thats it, 21 years!

Same age as me, and thus irrelevant

I think there's been more than enough slating him for it though, my intention was to cause him to think about what he said for a second - didn't expect a hoohah about it!

In fact, an interesting display of our dual standards here on boards - plenty of talk of it here and KKV's comments look like a compliment compared to some of the Walters over here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055918485

Clearly the ES forum is a place for taking these things a tad more seriously.

I'll make this my last post in this thread.


First off, if anyone actually got or felt upset regarding my comments on here, then I'm sorry. I've re-read the thread from the beginning and I do admit, at times, my comments were a little over the top and perhaps a little too blunt for a topic that seems to easily hit a nerve.

That said, I do still believe that any person who uses a weapon in a threatening manner in public and ignores Garda warnings, should be shot at. Fair enough, if they drop it and give up, then an arrest is fine, but RSU are a rare sight, and I believe that in order for them to keep a serious image, they must shoot when necessary. I feel that the Cork case (or what we have heard of it) was a time when it was necessary to shoot.


So, whilst I do still stand by my opinion on the matter, I apologise to anyone who may have gotten upset, annoyed or frustrated at my comments.

monkeysox

Fair play to ya

sdanseo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll make this my last post in this thread.
So, whilst I do still stand by my opinion on the matter, I apologise to anyone who may have gotten upset, annoyed or frustrated at my comments.

Relax, nobody took it to heart.

Zambia

maglite wrote: »

What I would have found interesting though is the shot placement and indeed the weapon of choice. But I suppose as I was not there it’s going to be hard for me to criticise or speculate.

Sorry Maglite but what was the weapon of choice. I had assumed the shot was taken with an MP 7?

But from the articles I have access to I cant see any mention.

In relation to KKV I considered this for a while and I do see where he/you are coming from. In a society that the public rarely see justice done it is natural that an immediate punishment is considered a satisfactory outcome. Even though an offender may be charged and sentenced, if the victim does not get told the result how will they know? In the case here all and sundry know he did not walk away with a slap on the wrist.

I remember a possible urban Myth once where a bloke stabbed a doorman , the other doormen got the guy. They handed him to the gardai and the "story" was the guy was driven the long route back to the station in the back of a transit with 2 gardai doing the old riverdance on him. Whenever this story was told everyone did in fact smile including myself at the time. As I consider this I began to wonder if the gardai had in fact shot him in the ass in the back of the van would we have all still smiled? Chances are we would.

So while I still think it wrong to want the bloke shot I have been guilty in the past of relishing in the thought of a well placed slap or to directed at a deserving scumbag. Which by the same rational is also wrong.

Ethics eh always f**king with your head?

maglite

I'm not commenting on what I think is right or wrong, when I refereed to weapon it was their "firearm" as distinct from the less than lethal option, be it Taser, bean bag, spray etc. I honestly expected moaning about the fact he was injured and not killed, leaving the option for a less than lethal in the court of public opinion. I am under the "unfounded" impression of AGS if they shoot, they to shoot to kill not shoot to injure.

When I read stomach I saw belly, which given the size of the pub would seem to be a deliberate shot to injure, however if we are talking about the actual stomach, in terms of that is the main wound, then shot placement would be fairly center on the body.

Though this is a complete case of dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Truly a situation I would not wish on someone, on either side. The injured party if obviously going through a lot after the death of his relative.

Scan Man

I'm normally a "human rights/they should have used less-than-lethal-weapons" type but in this case (from the details so far) I think the responding Gardai used force which was proportionate to the threat to themselves and members of the public.

There's so many complications, and while I'm not a Garda, I can't imagine being confident going up against a shotgun with a taser. It takes time to pacify someone with a taser (both barbs must hit the person to deliver the max charge, etc), the shotgun only needs to be pointed roughly in a direction and one pull of the trigger or both triggers. Either way it was the decision of the responding Gardai as to the level of the threat, and the most effective and most assessable weapon in the time they had to respond.

From the media reports I've saw, the shot was taken with a Sig Sauer P226, which is the version used by the Garda ERU, and I assume is used by the RSUs.

Zambia

maglite wrote: »

I'm not commenting on what I think is right or wrong, when I refereed to weapon it was their "firearm" as distinct from the less than lethal option, be it Taser, bean bag, spray etc. I honestly expected moaning about the fact he was injured and not killed, leaving the option for a less than lethal in the court of public opinion. I am under the "unfounded" impression of AGS if they shoot, they to shoot to kill not shoot to injure.

ah my bad. I thought that was on a choice of firearm

Disregard

nutts_77

Gardai shoot at the central body mass, and they shoot to stop. That is, to stop a person from doing whatever that person is doing at the time. They do not shoot to injure, or to kill.

Morpheus

Correct,

Centre Body Mass shots, they arent snipers, Rangers or the SAS and its not doctrine to use headshots when storming a room - this method is a tactic used e.g. where targets have weapons aimed at hostages, without being too disgusting, the reasoning is that if a targets brain is sufficiently destroyed, there will be less chance of a reflex trigger pull killing innocents, also its very hard to wear a kevlar vest on your face.

A centre mass hit will ruin your day every time and probably make pulling the trigger the least of your worries.

Contrary to popular belief, this isnt hollywood, I wouldnt wager on having less chance of dying, theres many vital organs packed into a bigger target including heart lungs spinal cord etc.

The target is also bigger than a head sized one so theres less chance of missing and hitting something or someone you dont want to hit.

Im feel sorry for all involved here, nobody wants to have to shoot someone, but I believe the AGS did a very professional job.

bravestar

Morphéus wrote: »

Correct,

Centre Body Mass shots, they arent snipers, Rangers or the SAS and its not doctrine to use headshots when storming a room - this method is a tactic used e.g. where targets have weapons aimed at hostages, without being too disgusting, the reasoning is that if a targets brain is sufficiently destroyed, there will be less chance of a reflex trigger pull killing innocents, also its very hard to wear a kevlar vest on your face.

A centre mass hit will ruin your day every time and probably make pulling the trigger the least of your worries.

Contrary to popular belief, this isnt hollywood, I wouldnt wager on having less chance of dying, theres many vital organs packed into a bigger target including heart lungs spinal cord etc.

The target is also bigger than a head sized one so theres less chance of missing and hitting something or someone you dont want to hit.

Im feel sorry for all involved here, nobody wants to have to shoot someone, but I believe the AGS did a very professional job.

Can't leave out over penetration too. The last thing wanted would be for a round to go through, the head, and into an innocent bystander, or a fragment of it to do the same. Center of mass shots help to keep it all inside the intended target and tranfer the kinetic energy into the target, rather than through it, for knockdown power.