ATH Knockout Quater final 2: Flahavaj vs Voltwad

Bounty Hunter

So we had a quality opener with Voltwad seing off Volt_2007 to progress on to face Flahavaj in the quaterfinal and the really tight Degag vs Campo match which saw Campo progress to another QF, This was followed by the tie of the round imo (no offense to anyone) when Waltersobcheck booked his place in the next round at Danger Dave's expense, then we found out the final first round winner as Dare 2 Defy took on Dieselqueen, with DQ coming out on top.

The first quaterfinal saw the clash of the co-champs but didnt quite live up to its potential but saw Cactus Col progress to the Semi-final. who will joing him there though Voltwad or Flahavaj?

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the first few match ups or OP of the main thread for further details if any are needed

Q.There are many wrestlers both in TNA and the WWE who could benefit from having a manager and there are many people employed by both these promotions capable of filling such a role. If you could choose two people to team up in such a capacity in either promotion who would you pick? why do you think they would benefit so much from this change? and why did you choose them over other options?

The Volt

The question rightly states that there are many superstars across both companies that could benefit from the introduction of a valet. However, one stands out above the rest for me and that is our current World Heavyweight Champion, Jack Swagger.

In circumstances where he has been given a big push, he still has quite a lot of work to do before credibly cementing his place in the main event echelons. Having him win the Money In The Bank match at this year's WrestleMania was ideal in a sense where it gave him a platform but now the hard work begins for Swagger. He has been likened in many respects to Kurt Angle and many predict that he may fill a void left by the departure of the Olympic Gold Medallist. If we flashback to the rise of Angle, the use of Stephanie McMahon in his storylines really helped get him to the level that he got to. At the time she was an important figure on screen and not only did her role as his manager benefit his heel character, it led to a great feud with HHH, another feat that cemented Angles place in the main event scene.

It's all about building a strong foundation and Swagger hasn't properly done that yet. If I could assign him a manager then I would be inclined to make sure that it was an instantly recognisable, household name. Managers have often played a pivotal role in the breeding of new champions but that seems to have been relaxed recently. I think, the best thing for him would be to give him Abe Washington as a manager. It would be important to align them with someone established so why not use Mr. McMahon to help them out at first. Have them do the whole "State of the Championship Adress" but have Abe give most of it saying that Swagger is above talking to you people (the crowd). I think with a good manager, Jack Swagger could really get some heat going. I can deffinitally see him doing a Cabinet style JBL deal. With the kinda political vibes wearing the suit and all. But managing has become a dying art, so unless your a 7 foot monster that needs a translator... then your on your own.

flahavaj

The Superstar that I think would benefit massively from having a manager is John Morrison. Morrison is a guy who has many many talents. He has an amazing look. He carries himself like a star. He is an amazingly athletic, explosive in ring worker. In fact he has all the tools to make it to the very top of the pro wrestling business. However, if there is one thig that lets him down it is his ability on the microphone. He just isn't up to the standard at present to carry a main event feud on a live microphone on the WWE stage. As a face his promos are cringe worthy in the extreme. There are numerous clips on youtube that back up just how embarrasinlgy bad he is as a face. That "Mr Ziggles" shi*e he was coming out with a few weeks back was plain awful.

As aheel, he is somewhat better but to be honest he is still mediovre on the stick at best. I remember a few years back he and Melina held a "press conference" in the ring to forward a feud with Batista and he was shocking, to the extent that it made me not want to see them wrestle. The fact that his voice has the pre pubescent warble of a teenage boy doesn't really help him.

In short, he's p*ss poor on the mic and he badly needs a mouthpiece to help him along.

And so to who should be given this role? IMO, the best manager of the decade Vickie Guerrero would be absolutely perfect for him. If anyone can propel a guy from upper mid card heel to fully blown mega heel its Guerrero. I can't think of a more hateful duo than Morrison, the whining heel champion with Guerrero at his side. The fact that a guy like Morrsion qould never look twice at a hogget like Vickie and is only with her for her power would be a brilliant combo. There is no doubt that Edge being with vickie was a massive factor in getting him over as the WW's greatest heel in recent years. She could do teh same for Morrison. You could even do a side feus between a face Meline and Vickie over teh women's title, with Melina appalled that her former boyfrien would stoop to the level of enlisting Melina. You could actually use his whining little girly voice as an advantage in backstage segments as he whines to his lover to get hi out of title matches. Buys all round IMO.

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As a rebuttal to the Swagger point, I would contend that he should at least be givena chance on his own before we condemn his as not good enough to go it alone. The problem with Swagger IMo, is not so much that he needs a manager per se, but rather that he has simpley been pushed too far too soon. i'm all for elevating new talent but his push came out of teh blue. For months before Mania he awas doing nothing, to the extent that his MITb win was a big surprise. And his cashing in was also a big surprise coming so soon, and with nothing having been doen to make the guy out to be a legit threat, If he is struggling as a champ, its not because he needs a manager, its because he simply hasnt been booked in any way strongly and teh whole think has been needlessly rushed.

Also I agree that Washington is a talented talker and he may amount to something big in a few years time. but at the moment he is pretty low doen the pecking order in WWE. Hes probably best known as a guy who used to host a chat show on ECW. I'm not sure how putting him with the world champ would make the vhamp more legit. Certainly the rub he'd give someone pales in comparison to the rub that an established mega heel like Vickie could give someone.

The Volt

flahavaj wrote: »

As a rebuttal to the Swagger point, I would contend that he should at least be givena chance on his own before we condemn his as not good enough to go it alone. The problem with Swagger IMo, is not so much that he needs a manager per se, but rather that he has simpley been pushed too far too soon. i'm all for elevating new talent but his push came out of teh blue. For months before Mania he awas doing nothing, to the extent that his MITb win was a big surprise. And his cashing in was also a big surprise coming so soon, and with nothing having been doen to make the guy out to be a legit threat, If he is struggling as a champ, its not because he needs a manager, its because he simply hasnt been booked in any way strongly and teh whole think has been needlessly rushed.

Also I agree that Washington is a talented talker and he may amount to something big in a few years time. but at the moment he is pretty low doen the pecking order in WWE. Hes probably best known as a guy who used to host a chat show on ECW. I'm not sure how putting him with the world champ would make the vhamp more legit. Certainly the rub he'd give someone pales in comparison to the rub that an established mega heel like Vickie could give someone.

Swagger was pushed too far, too soon. This is exactly why there needs to be something to support him in my opinion. The WWE has put him in a position where he is now a World Champion and that is quite substantial. They then followed this up by having him lose to Orton, Morrison and most recently Kofi. Essentially, if they're trying to make him look a credible champion then they're going about it entirely in the wrong way. In fact, I would go as far as to say they're forcing him onto a credibility tightrope as well as de-valuing the accomplishment of being the champ. So you are right in saying that he was pushed too far, too soon but this is where WWE and Swagger are now and this is how they should rectify it.

The guy's clearly a decent wrestler given his accomplished amateur background but like just like Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison, he's tough to bear on the microphone. His gimmick is all over the shop; Before he won the title he was all jumpy and in people's faces but suddenly he wins it and he goes all stiff and serious. A few weeks later he's back to the former somewhat. They don't know what to do with the guy. Evidently younger stars can sometimes take time to develop a solid character but the WWE have decided for some reason to give him the World heavyweight Championship now while he is still raw and unfinished. A decent manager for him could make all the difference and give himself and the WWE time to decide exactly what they want from the All-American American American American etc.

Abe Washington will be unknown largely to the WWE universe but from what I've seen of him so far, he's ideal and could have as big an impact as that of Jimmy Hart. The guy oozes charisma, he's got a coincidentally perfect American, American name and with him and Swagger as a team we have The Patriots Look at Brock Lesnar. Great talent, great look, horrible mic worker. Having Heyman as his agent helped mask this weakness until he was over and recognizable enough to be on his own. Lesnar is one of, if not the biggest stars WWE has made in the last ten years. This alone should be an indication that male managers are beneficial. The guy is so annoying and really makes you want to boo him out of the building. I think managers are highly underused and were always a key part of wrestling in previous eras. They are one of many things that have inexplicable fallen out of favour nowadays. I think a manager is a great idea for somebody with limited mic skills, especially if they're a heel, as long as the manager doesn't take the heat off the wrestler and onto themselves.

While I do not discount the fact that Morrison is in dire need of attention as well, the situation stands that the World Champion on SmackDown needs help and that should be prioritized over a mid-carder.

flahavaj

Voltwad wrote: »

Swagger was pushed too far, too soon. This is exactly why there needs to be something to support him in my opinion. The WWE has put him in a position where he is now a World Champion and that is quite substantial. They then followed this up by having him lose to Orton, Morrison and most recently Kofi. Essentially, if they're trying to make him look a credible champion then they're going about it entirely in the wrong way. In fact, I would go as far as to say they're forcing him onto a credibility tightrope as well as de-valuing the accomplishment of being the champ. So you are right in saying that he was pushed too far, too soon but this is where WWE and Swagger are now and this is how they should rectify it.

The guy's clearly a decent wrestler given his accomplished amateur background but like just like Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison, he's tough to bear on the microphone. His gimmick is all over the shop; Before he won the title he was all jumpy and in people's faces but suddenly he wins it and he goes all stiff and serious. A few weeks later he's back to the former somewhat. They don't know what to do with the guy. Evidently younger stars can sometimes take time to develop a solid character but the WWE have decided for some reason to give him the World heavyweight Championship now while he is still raw and unfinished. A decent manager for him could make all the difference and give himself and the WWE time to decide exactly what they want from the All-American American American American etc.

Abe Washington will be unknown largely to the WWE universe but from what I've seen of him so far, he's ideal and could have as big an impact as that of Jimmy Hart. The guy oozes charisma, he's got a coincidentally perfect American, American name and with him and Swagger as a team we have The Patriots Look at Brock Lesnar. Great talent, great look, horrible mic worker. Having Heyman as his agent helped mask this weakness until he was over and recognizable enough to be on his own. Lesnar is one of, if not the biggest stars WWE has made in the last ten years. This alone should be an indication that male managers are beneficial. The guy is so annoying and really makes you want to boo him out of the building. I think managers are highly underused and were always a key part of wrestling in previous eras. They are one of many things that have inexplicable fallen out of favour nowadays. I think a manager is a great idea for somebody with limited mic skills, especially if they're a heel, as long as the manager doesn't take the heat off the wrestler and onto themselves.

While I do not discount the fact that Morrison is in dire need of attention as well, the situation stands that the World Champion on SmackDown needs help and that should be prioritized over a mid-carder.

The problem isn't that Swagger has no manager thiugh. The problem is that Swagger is world champ in the first place with no build whatsoever and has a mediocre opponent in the Big Show as his first big feud. Throwing a manager in that isn't even that well known won't help his case, the problems are much more fundamental than that I'm afraid.

I'm not averse to teh pairing of Washington and Jack btw, its a very good idea in fact. But for it to work they'd need to be paired up BEFORE he bacame the champ. The partnership and their reasons for being together should have ben established. The benefit to Swagger of having Abe as manager should have been demonstrated by him winning a few matches and feus over upper mid card opponents such as Christian and Morrison in the lead up to MITB. THEN you can put the title on him and at least theres something you can work on. Doing it the other way around makes no sense and smacks of desperation IMO.

You quote the Heyman example with Brock and it was an inspired idea to put the, together at the start. But the point is they did it from say one when he debuted. If they had booked Lesnar to win the title and THEN given him a manager it'd have looked a bit stupid. Likewise giving Swagger a manager now would just make him look weak. From a kayfabe point of view why woud he need outside help now when he's made it to teh top alone? To me its simply giving the guy a massive vote of no confidence a few weeks into his first title reign. If hes really that bad as champ, then take the title off him and push him back down the card. You can then pair him with Washington as a way of him trying some thing new and then start the proper slow build that has been proven to work successfully in the past.

The Volt

Swagger gets no reaction from the crowd, no heel heat, no nothing. Nevertheless, it seems as though the WWE is intent on developing talent in Swagger. They see alot of green potential in the kid, and are just waiting until his promo skills catch up with him. They wouldn't necessarily have to have him lose the title before bringing in a manager for him, another couple of non-title losses would be enough to have him lose a little confidence and need a pick-me-up. In steps Abe Washington to help him get a couple of cheeky wins and build from there. Abe could continue to build back up his cockiness with a celebration of all of his accomplishments. At OU he actually set the NCAA record for most pins in a season with 30. I dont know alot about amatuer wrestling- but I know if you set a NCAA record- your doing something special. The stage is then set for someone to interrupt and begin a new fued with a rejuvenated Swagger.

I don't think it matters too much whether or not they give him a manager now or when he loses the title. If he was to lose the title it might not even be the worst thing for him, as Flah said, it would perhaps allow him to build even better. However, there is massive potential in Swagger if the WWE can use him to his strengths. Draft Washington into the equation and there you have a fully rounded, hated heel champion. The pairing would hit it off instantly I believe, for reasons stated in my second post.

The knock on effect of giving Washington this role gives him exposure to the wider WWE universe which he will revel in. Once Swagger and him have gone their separate ways then we have a ready-made General Manager on our hands.

I'm not entirely convinced that you even believe Morrison could make it at the top and frankly the idea of Vickie and him as a pairing doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. John Morrison is a fantastic in ring talent. His athletic ability is stunning, as is his look. He is probably one of the best performers in WWE right now, when it comes to working between the ropes, but when he steps back through he is so very, very flawed. He cuts promo's like he's reading a script. I can quite honestly say that I could cut a better promo than Morrison does. I didn't buy into him as a heel with Miz (Who's far closer to the full package than he is) and I don't buy into his babyface gimmick now. It wouldn't take a lot at all to fix this. Morrison is struggling as a face and needs to be the 'I'm better than you' dickhead who's a bit outlandish as that is what he is best at. That is how Morrison can move upwards, not by being in Vickie Guerrero's shadow.

flahavaj

Voltwad wrote: »

Swagger gets no reaction from the crowd, no heel heat, no nothing. Nevertheless, it seems as though the WWE is intent on developing talent in Swagger. They see alot of green potential in the kid, and are just waiting until his promo skills catch up with him. They wouldn't necessarily have to have him lose the title before bringing in a manager for him, another couple of non-title losses would be enough to have him lose a little confidence and need a pick-me-up. In steps Abe Washington to help him get a couple of cheeky wins and build from there. Abe could continue to build back up his cockiness with a celebration of all of his accomplishments. At OU he actually set the NCAA record for most pins in a season with 30. I dont know alot about amatuer wrestling- but I know if you set a NCAA record- your doing something special. The stage is then set for someone to interrupt and begin a new fued with a rejuvenated Swagger.

I don't think it matters too much whether or not they give him a manager now or when he loses the title. If he was to lose the title it might not even be the worst thing for him, as Flah said, it would perhaps allow him to build even better. However, there is massive potential in Swagger if the WWE can use him to his strengths. Draft Washington into the equation and there you have a fully rounded, hated heel champion. The pairing would hit it off instantly I believe, for reasons stated in my second post.

The knock on effect of giving Washington this role gives him exposure to the wider WWE universe which he will revel in. Once Swagger and him have gone their separate ways then we have a ready-made General Manager on our hands.

As I've said earlier, I don't disagree one bit that teh pairing of Jack and Washington could be daycent, but i don't think pairing them up now when he is champ is a wise move.

I'm not entirely convinced that you even believe Morrison could make it at the top and frankly the idea of Vickie and him as a pairing doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. John Morrison is a fantastic in ring talent. His athletic ability is stunning, as is his look. He is probably one of the best performers in WWE right now, when it comes to working between the ropes, but when he steps back through he is so very, very flawed. He cuts promo's like he's reading a script. I can quite honestly say that I could cut a better promo than Morrison does. I didn't buy into him as a heel with Miz (Who's far closer to the full package than he is) and I don't buy into his babyface gimmick now. It wouldn't take a lot at all to fix this. Morrison is struggling as a face and needs to be the 'I'm better than you' dickhead who's a bit outlandish as that is what he is best at. That is how Morrison can move upwards, not by being in Vickie Guerrero's shadow.

The bolded part sums up exactly why he BADLY needs a mouthpiece. He'll me nothing more than a MITB wannabe challenger all his career otherwise. Him and Guerrero would be epic, as would a side feud witha face Melina. He wouldn't be in Vickie's shadow so much as the perfect whining, cowardly little b*stard to accompany her and make a fresh change from her somewhat stale pairing with Edge and a massive improvements on her mediocre run with Big Show.

In conclusion: Yore Ma.:pac: (Always wanted to say that in one of these debates).

Bounty Hunter

with a 5 to 4 vote Voltwad has come through this tight affair and will face off against Catus Col in the first ATH Semi-final. Hard luck and well played Flahavaj

D2D

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

with a 5 to 4 vote Voltwad has come through this tight affair and will face off against Catus Col in the first ATH Semi-final. Hard luck and well played Flahavaj

I can't see the result yet

EDIT: Nevermind, just came up there