hatred towards protesters unfair.

GarlicBread

Why is everyone up in arms around here about the protests? They are the only positive thing going on atm, not to mention the entertainment . In Iceland they rioted the government out of office. In greece the people are taking back control. Even in france last year(i think it was last year) the people rose up and mass rioted when the government stepped out of line just a little.

And then Ireland, our lovely homeland. We have MASSIVE scandals compared to the rest, relatively minor protests occur and everyone goes nuts. The media attacks it and then everyone else follows suit. Why?

So, much of the protesters are obivously on the left, but many are neutral or otherwise who have been roped into it because of the current climate. Do the irish right wingers really hate the left so much that they will attack them no matter what? Even when they justifiably take to the streets in defence of all of us. I fear the truth is that we should all be on these protests, left and right and everyone in between. But the right have their heads so far up their own ass that they "wouldnt be seen in public with these dirty mongrels" etc etc. People see the SWP and the likes of Eirigy with a banner on the news and think, omg its that lot and they have such vested interests that are opposed to mine. True yes, but is it not also true that we ALL need a general election, we ALL need the economy fixed and we ALL want some form of democracy back.

Our country is under savage attack and its gone completely beyond politics at this stage. I dont mean to attack people, but its very obivous that the hostility towards the protests is coming from the right, who proclaim to be the reasonable centre, when clearly they are not. I think this is scandalous because its not just the left that are under pressure, its everyone else aswell.

Look at greece, you have 80 year old right wing grannies standing next to a hammer and sickle out in front of parliment, shouting to burn it down. They are not shifting to the left or succumbing to a populist agenda, they are simply outraged and have a sense of solidarity.

People should seriously get off their idealogical high stool, put their hatred of the unions or dirty lefties(:p) aside and get off their asses to make numbers outside the dail next tuesday and every tuesday for peaceful protest. Who cares if 4 or 5 retards make a scene for the camaras, thats irelavent.

We are all getting flushed down the ****ter together here, and all most people can do is give out about the protesters, thats a scandal in itself and it really shows us up as pathetic.

The arguement that the protest will achieve nothing or that the protests dont have a clear aim is stupid. The protests are about anything from headshops to pensions, morgage arears to lack of jobs, bank bailouts, nama, corruption, the catholic church, HSE, a general election and reform in most aspects of irish society. These are not the agendas of the loony left, this is all of our agendas. The loony left are only there because they are there most of the time anyway, but this time they are particularly pissed, and so should everyone else.

1000 last week, 2000 this week and hopefully more next week. A solid 10,000 on a weekly basis will trigger an election, which is the least the majority of us can agree on. If this government was knocked out before the bank guarentee is renewed, we will all be multi-billions richer, who knows what could happen, but it is certainly better than sitting by and watching this horror show any longer.

The only people who have a legitimate arguement against the protesters are fianna fail hacks who unjustly hang on to power with their filthy finger nails.

Protest for you country!

Wolfe Tone

No. The last thing this country needs is an election. I'm no FF supporter but this country needs to show stability. We are too far down the road to turn back now.

gandalf

Not everyone who criticises these protest is a right winger. Please stop throwing labels around.

Also if as you say the protests are about as wide a variety of subjects as you claim then they are doomed to failure. The most successful protests are ones that people can identify readily with.

As for claiming that its only 4 or 5 retards who are causing the problems you are wrong. There was a lot more that 4 or 5 retards charging the gates of Dail Eireann last week.

As for the Greek situation yeah they rioted and murdered 4 people and still got shafted with that added spice of the IMF being involved.

I have no problem with legitimate protests and with ones that have clear aims and offer a clear and proper alternative to our current predicament.

So far these protests have offered none of this.

BTW for the record I am an ex member of the Labour party.

danman

I've been quite vocal in my opposition to these particular protests, simply because they have absolutly no direction. They are protests for protestings sake.

The organisers don't even attempt to offer any solutions.
Why protest, when you don't actually have a solution that you can try to get the government to listen to?

Shouting "we're angry", offers nothing, unless you can then give an alternative.

We need cuts, the protest is against cuts.
We need to widen the tax net, the protest is against making 50% of taxpayers outside the net pay tax.
Regardless of what they think, we need our banks (usual suspects aside), the protests are anti bank bailouts.
The protest is for more jobs, yet the spokesman for this group hasn't bothered getting a job for the past 12 years. (see newstalk breakfast on Tuesday)

what do they offer?

Perhaps if the mainstream opposition parties got off their arses and organised some sort of protest, with a bit of thought into the aims, the momentum would gather much quicker.

Dermighty

It's because Irish people are idiots and our politicians take advantage of it.

This country is where it is because of apathy, stupidity and a pointless loyalty to an ideal of politics that is completely out of sync with what the country needs (ie: repeatedly voting in the same government that managed to screw this country over numerous times in the last 40 years.

GarlicBread

Those people in greece died because (1) the people who threw those petrol bombs were fools and didnt give any consideration towards people in the bank and (2) the owner of the building wasnt adhereing to health and safety regulations and had no fire escape which made some people trapped and many others had to flee upstairs.

Its terrible what happened to those people, but there are much more pressing issues at hand. 150,000 pissed people on the streets of athens didnt murder anyone, it was a handful of spuds who will hopefully be caught and tried for murder.

Stop associating protests with murder, its a filthy mind game tactic being used against the protest movement. It dosent have much relevance and its playing on the theatrical. Altho im prob guilty of playing the theatrical myself at times .

Wolfe Tone

I guarantee thee protests will achieve nothing. You have no mandate to be doing what you are doing. The government have.

GarlicBread

danman wrote: »

Perhaps if the mainstream opposition parties got off their arses and organised some sort of protest, with a bit of thought into the aims, the momentum would gather much quicker.

For once i agree with you. Where are FG and Labour? Are they just playing for the camaras in leinster house?

A quote comes to mind, from Jim Mcdade last week; "Fianna Fail are on the skewer and are roasting nicely".

When he was asked about FG wanting an election, .

gandalf

Yes but that protest in Greece facilitated those "Spuds" as you call them to murder those people. If the protest didn't happen they would still be alive. That's a fact.

So you reckon a big protest is worth 4 lives or maybe 3 or 2 or 1?

What about the charge that those behind these protests have no idea on how to fix things themselves. Are they going to sprinkle magic pixie dust and magic a big pile of money out of the ether?

As for theatrical you are the one who threw labels around in your opening post, who called anyone who disagreed with your point of view FF hacks. I have never voted for FF and I never will. I have voted Green in the past but don't worry I won't make that mistake ever again.

Just out of curiosity what age are you if you don't mind me asking?

Scofflaw

GarlicBread wrote: »

Those people in greece died because (1) the people who threw those petrol bombs were fools and didnt give any consideration towards people in the bank and (2) the owner of the building wasnt adhereing to health and safety regulations and had no fire escape which made some people trapped and many others had to flee upstairs.

Its terrible what happened to those people, but there are much more pressing issues at hand. 150,000 pissed people on the streets of athens didnt murder anyone, it was a handful of spuds who will hopefully be caught and tried for murder.

Stop associating protests with murder, its a filthy mind game tactic being used against the protest movement. It dosent have much relevance and its playing on the theatrical. Altho im prob guilty of playing the theatrical myself at times .

Indeed you are...after all, you've more or less said that anyone opposed to the protests is a Fianna Fáil hack with filthy fingernails.

It's a little bit of an education, I always think, talking to the public on whose behalf you believe you're acting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

silverharp

one of my collagues went along to the one this week and even though she is left wing she didnt appreciate all the anti police rethoric that was being spouted. she reckoned there were about 150 at it, her attitude was that they need to come across in a different way if they want to attract normal support.

Eliot Rosewater

silverharp wrote: »

one of my collagues went along to the one this week and even though she is left wing she didnt appreciate all the anti police rethoric that was being spouted. she reckoned there were about 150 at it, her attitude was that they need to come across in a different way if they want to attract normal support.

From what I've seen, Left wing protesters are classic "issue mixers". They seem to have an innate inability to concentrate on one particular thing; hence why one sees posters like "No to NAMA" at protests against hospital cuts. Every additional issue you bring to a march (in your friends case, anti-police sentiment) alienates a certain number of people. So in the end, by failing to concentrate on the one policy, these protests fail.

McCruiskeen

GarlicBread wrote: »

We are all getting flushed down the ****ter together here, and all most people can do is give out about the protesters, thats a scandal in itself and it really shows us up as pathetic.

I'm sick of this talk. It's been going on for years. i.e "this country is ruined and no one has a future here" etc. Just Bull****.

I don't feel like I'm getting flushed down the toilet. Things are looking pretty for me and the majority of my friends and family. We're all happy and getting by. Some friends are struggling and have lost their job but they are in the minority and they will manage.

So don't try and speak for me and pretend you represent me at your protests.

loldog

They're the usual SWP rabble and clueless students. They don't really deserve much respect because their motives are not at all in the interests of more than 99% of the electorate.

.

GarlicBread

deadtiger wrote: »

Yes but that protest in Greek facilitated those "Spuds" as you call them to murder those people. If the protest didn't happen they would still be alive. That's a fact.

So you reckon a big protest is worth 4 lives or maybe 3 or 2 or 1?

What about the charge that those behind these protests have no idea on how to fix things themselves. Are they going to sprinkle magic pixie dust and magic a big pile of money out of the ether?

As for theatrical you are the one who threw labels around in your opening post, who called anyone who disagreed with your point of view FF hacks. I have never voted for FF and I never will. I have voted Green in the past but don't worry I won't make that mistake ever again.

Just out of curiosity what age are you if you don't mind me asking?

Once again with the murder. I give in, lets ban all protests incase a random murder happens? I do not support murder, i am not a murderer, i value human life as much as anyone else and i am not calling for murder. Greece was shut down today again by protests, is Greece a country of murderers? Stop with the murder please.

How many people have commited suicide because of the economic collapse in this country so far? More than 3 id bet. Does that count as murder or is it just collateral damage?

Dont patronise me and ask me for my age, its a childish question and hence a paradox.

Those behind the protest have a much better plan than the government does and are more organized aswell, just because they are a rag tag bunch pissed off people, you cant hold that against them. Id like to see a thousand pro government people do a march and come up with some effective policies, fat chance of that ever happening.

I said the only people who genuinely were againt the protest is the ruling government because obivously its against them. People who are just having a bitch about the protest dont really have a legitimate argument against it, they are just complaining.

No need to get too rowdy on here anyway, its all the too tempting for me to go all out and make an off the wall post in the hope that i may get some off the wall answers. Save the rowdiness for outside the dail .

GarlicBread

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's a little bit of an education, I always think, talking to the public on whose behalf you believe you're acting.

If that were the case then our government ministers would each have huge IQ. A certain Mary C comes to mind .

gandalf

GarlicBread wrote: »

Once again with the murder. I give in, lets ban all protests incase a random murder happens? I do not support murder, i am not a murderer, i value human life as much as anyone else and i am not calling for murder. Greece was shut down today again by protests, is Greece a country of murderers? Stop with the murder please.

Woooaaaw there cowboy. You brought the Greeks into this topic with your preaching from the pulpit above. I made a point and factually its correct.

How many people have commited suicide because of the economic collapse in this country so far? More than 3 id bet. Does that count as murder or is it just collateral damage?

I am sure people have committed suicide during the recession. How many I can't tell you and I cannot tell you if statistically its higher than during non-recession times. Can you get those facts.

Dont patronise me and ask me for my age, its a childish question and hence a paradox.

Its a very valid question. I am curious are you just a student or if you have any real experience or if its all based in theory?

Those behind the protest have a much better plan than the government does and are more organized aswell, just because they are a rag tag bunch pissed off people, you cant hold that against them. Id like to see a thousand pro government people do a march and come up with some effective policies, fat chance of that ever happening.

If they have a better plan. Explain it.

I said the only people who genuinely were againt the protest is the ruling government because obivously its against them. People who are just having a bitch about the protest dont really have a legitimate argument against it, they are just complaining.

2000 people turned up at the protest this week according to the actual figures from the protest organisers. Media outlets stated numbers from 1000-1200. Don't lose the run of yourself.

I think you will find an awful lot of people who don't support this government are against these protests as well because they appear to be protest for protest sake. Of course now that you have said the protesters have a better plan and you enlighten us to them we will all run out with you next Tuesday.

No need to get too rowdy on here anyway, its all the too tempting for me to go all out and make an off the wall post in the hope that i may get some off the wall answers. Save the rowdiness for outside the dail .

When you say rowdiness do you mean charge the Dail again and throw bottles at Gardai.

Now come on explain the better plan convince us sceptics.

I'll be straight with you. I do not believe there is any plan except find a bunch of straws and grasp at them.

20Cent

Irish people have way too much respect for authority. The whole country should be out marching but instead put up with scandal after scandal.

Terrlock

I think the the feeling of people is that it's like someone getting a punch in the face repeately and just taking it all the time.

They feel ashamed that an injustice has been done and no one does anything about it.

The only mandate is that you need to take your punches as in the long run it will be good for you.

Anyone who tries to fight against it, is put down immediately.

Not everyone can come up with the solution for the problems, but that doesn't stop them from seeing that the current situation is wrong.

If we believe that something is inheritly wrong then we should stand up for ourselves and stop the madness.

McCruiskeen

Those behind the protest have a much better plan than the government does

Yes, please explain. I have not yet heard any realistic alternative.

Anger is not a policy, by the way.

GarlicBread

deadtiger wrote: »

Woooaaaw there cowboy. You brought the Greeks into this topic with your preaching from the pulpit above. I made a point and factually its correct.



I am sure people have committed suicide during the recession. How many I can't tell you and I cannot tell you if statistically its higher than during non-recession times. Can you get those facts.



Its a very valid question. I am curious are you just a student or if you have any real experience or if its all based in theory?



If they have a better plan. Explain it.



2000 people turned up at the protest this week according to the actual figures from the protest organisers. Media outlets stated numbers from 1000-1200. Don't lose the run of yourself.

I think you will find an awful lot of people who don't support this government are against these protests as well because they appear to be protest for protest sake. Of course now that you have said the protesters have a better plan and you enlighten us to them we will all run out with you next Tuesday.



When you say rowdiness do you mean charge the Dail again and throw bottles at Gardai.

Now come on explain the better plan convince us sceptics.

I'll be straight with you. I do not believe there is any plan except find a bunch of straws and grasp at them.

I dont have facts on suicide, nor is it relevant tbh, i was just making a point about how murder happens circumstantially in pretty much every scenario with regard to the human condition. Of course if there are massive amounts of angry people it is more likely to happen, i will concede that.

I was a student until last year, altho im a bit older than most. I have a little experience with a wide varity of issues, but i am not affiliated with any groups apart from my union.

Explain a better plan? Dont give the banks one single more cent unless they do what they are told. Potientially shut most of them down. Dont let people go homeless via morgage arrears. Use Iceland as a poster child(very good idea!) Etc etc, this isnt a policy thread so i wont go on.

I dont want anyone to throw bottles at Guards, they are screwed just as much as anyone else and dont deserve it. Except for the small minority guards that were the subject of todays liveline show, they will get no sympathy from me.

We should be looking at the way our pensioners do it, damn they know how to defend themselves better than the rest of us. We can learn alot from them, the government runs from them with tail between legs.

MagicSean

Personally I love these protests. They've given the public and private sector something to unite against. Attacking Gardaí was the mistake. Trying to paint them as the enemy. The large majority of people in this country know that the Gardaí are there to do a job and are happy with them doing that job. They do not appreciate a rabble trying to destroy the rule of law for their own selfish needs.

McCruiskeen

Explain a better plan? Dont give the banks one single more cent unless they do what they are told. Potientially shut most of them down. Dont let people go homeless via morgage arrears. Use Iceland as a poster child(very good idea!) Etc etc, this isnt a policy thread so i wont go on.

OK. You would have let the banks collapse. Fair enough. I'm sure that would have had absolutely no negative consequences.

(other than the total collapse of our economy. Also people would have lost their life savings. Furthermore, the army would have had to supply food to people. Ever tried to get money out of an ATM to pay for food from a collapsed bank???

Before the bank guarantee was implemented we were 24 hours from this.

People would not have been able to get their salary from an ATM)

That's your policy then is it?

Now as I'm sure you know, the cost of the bank bailout is not the biggest problem we are facing. It's the structural deficit.

What's your policy there. How would you close a 15 billion structural deficit?

BlitzKrieg

Shouting "we're angry", offers nothing, unless you can then give an alternative.

Its worse then nothing because someone is going to ride on those shouts for their own agenda regardless of what you are angry about.

(case in point the tb protestors in the US get shunted and shafted into countless different agendas and are clueless of most of them.)

gandalf

GarlicBread wrote: »

I dont have facts on suicide, nor is it relevant tbh, i was just making a point about how murder happens circumstantially in pretty much every scenario with regard to the human condition. Of course if there are massive amounts of angry people it is more likely to happen, i will concede that.

But suicide is not murder. Its someone making a decision to end their lives. Yes circumstances are a factor and in some cases a major factor but at the end of the day it is that persons decision. It is not murder. Unlike throwing a petrol bomb through a window and causing someone to asphyxiate is murder.

I was a student until last year, altho im a bit older than most. I have a little experience with a wide varity of issues, but i am not affiliated with any groups apart from my union.

Ok I am 40 and I have been in the workforce for 20 years and have worked in large corporate multinationals and small Irish SME's where I currently am employed (just!). Basically what I am saying is that the majority of us workers are trying to keep our heads above water and get on with things and keep our employers in business. While most of us want FF out of Government we realise that the cost of running this country needs to go down. If the Government falls tomorrow their replacements will still have to cut the countries cloth to measure our resources. Let the people who messed our country up make the painful decisions and get an almighty kicking in 2012 and hopefully be ejected from power for a very long time.

Hopefully by then the Labour party will have copped on and allow me to give them my vote again. I will be a father by mid June and I certainly do not want my child to grow up in a country that's bankrupted because one sector wanted to keep their pre recession privileges or others could not grasp reality.

Explain a better plan? Dont give the banks one single more cent unless they do what they are told. Potientially shut most of them down. Dont let people go homeless via morgage arrears. Use Iceland as a poster child(very good idea!) Etc etc, this isnt a policy thread so i wont go on.

Is this your ideas or the actual ideas of the protest organisers. I feel they are yours and not the actual protest organisers. I asked you to "explain their better plan" as you must know what it is as you are out protesting.

One thing if these banks are going to be shut down where do peoples wages go, where do social welfare payments go, how do businesses transact business? Do we start paying each other in turnips?

I dont want anyone to throw bottles at Guards, they are screwed just as much as anyone else and dont deserve it. Except for the small minority guards that were the subject of todays liveline show, they will get no sympathy from me.

No one deserves to be assaulted no matter what they have done. If these Gardai you talk about on liveline (no idea about it as I don't listen to the radio during the day) have committed crimes then the Justice system should deal with them and not Anto with a bottle and his chuckie mates.

We should be looking at the way our pensioners do it, damn they know how to defend themselves better than the rest of us. We can learn alot from them, the government runs from them with tail between legs.

Yes of course it should because they had a clear objective. Its obvious that the protest organisers don't or there are so many that the message its sending out to the majority is chaos. It certainly doesn't help the organisers that the lunatic fringe of the SWP and the Republicans are screaming the loudest.

Mister men

Dermighty wrote: »

It's because Irish people are idiots and our politicians take advantage of it.

This country is where it is because of apathy, stupidity and a pointless loyalty to an ideal of politics that is completely out of sync with what the country needs (ie: repeatedly voting in the same government that managed to screw this country over numerous times in the last 40 years.

+1

Pride Fighter

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No. The last thing this country needs is an election. I'm no FF supporter but this country needs to show stability. We are too far down the road to turn back now.

Spoken like your namesake. An election is exactly what we need.

Eliot Rosewater

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Spoken like your namesake. An election is exactly what we need.

I disagree.

• An election is a sign of instability; look what happened Greece.
• Fianna Fail can make the tough decisions before they get booted out, hence deflecting anger from those who come after them.
• The alternative FG/Labour coalition could be potentially disastrous, what with Labour promising to reverse public sector pay cuts and not cut social welfare etc

Pride Fighter

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I disagree.

• An election is a sign of instability; look what happened Greece.
• Fianna Fail can make the tough decisions before they get booted out, hence deflecting anger from those who come after them.
• The alternative FG/Labour coalition could be potentially disastrous, what with Labour promising to reverse public sector pay cuts and not cut social welfare etc

Fianna Fail are a busted flush. At the last budget Labour promised greater cuts than those implemented by Fianna Fail but tempered by a 1.15 billion stimulus. Labour are not the party that was dominated by militant and the trade unions like in the 80's. Its a new, economically progressive party and it will do what is necessary to get people back to work.

The longer Fianna Fail are in the greater the chance more re-capitalisation money will be given to zombie banks. This money should be spent on job creation and funding start up businesses.

Labour does not propose reversing the pay cuts. What it proposes is getting Ireland back to a situation where the books are balanced and growth returns to the economy. Then and only then can some of the pay levies and cuts be looked at. That is at least 6-10 years down the line, so it wont happen anytime soon.

Eliot Rosewater

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Labour does not propose reversing the pay cuts.

Really? Gilmore's also pledged to avoid cutting social welfare, which is untenable given that it accounts for €21 billion of the budget and that the cost of living is decreasing.

On the Frontline last Monday one of Labour's TDs said that a levy on energy companies was a spending cut. This is ridiculous. Spending in this country went through the roof during the bubble and now it needs to go down, yet Labour don't want to do this. I simply don't trust them.

danman

@GarlicBread,
what are the solutions that the protestors are giving?
Please give us an outline, because they don't seem to be very clear.

Pride Fighter

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Really? Gilmore's also pledged to avoid cutting social welfare, which is untenable given that it accounts for €21 billion of the budget and that the cost of living is decreasing.

On the Frontline last Monday one of Labour's TDs said that a levy on energy companies was a spending cut. This is ridiculous. Spending in this country went through the roof during the bubble and now it needs to go down, yet Labour don't want to do this. I simply don't trust them.

All in the Labour party support reversing the pay cuts. If you read what I said, the pay cut reversals will happen in 6-10 years, when we are out of our current economic mire.

I have debated with you before. Its obvious you are coming at the economic crisis from a right wing analysis and have a dislike of the Labour party. Nothing wrong with that.

If you are a Libertarian, socially Labour is the most libertarian of all the parties. If social issues are important to you, Labour would probably be a closer fit for you than Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, who are more authoritarian than Labour.

ocokev

Firstly, we all know ye had a great time over the last few years with greed and want rife, so when you ask a person to protest and few turn up its a sign that alot of people feel that they only blame themselves for this current slump. Secondly if the opposition were worth their salt ff would have lost power long ago, nobody sees any advantage in replacing the present irish mafia with a week and pointless opposition. Thirdly the weather is far too good and it seems if we are going to have a smashing summer along with the ash cloud causing travel chaos i haven t seen one add to holiday at home.

danman

Pride Fighter wrote: »

All in the Labour party support reversing the pay cuts. If you read what I said, the pay cut reversals will happen in 6-10 years, when we are out of our current economic mire.

6 to 10 years time......!!!!!
Not even in the next government, but maybe in the next..????

That is the most ridiculous statement I've read on here.
Any party can make a claim like that, it means nothing.

Either Labour are for a reversal of cuts or their not.
There's no point in giving a promise about what they will do, 2 governments from now.

Do the unions know this?

Pride Fighter

danman wrote: »

6 to 10 years time......!!!!!
Not even in the next government, but maybe in the next..????

That is the most ridiculous statement I've read on here.
Any party can make a claim like that, it means nothing.

Either Labour are for a reversal of cuts or their not.
There's no point in giving a promise about what they will do, 2 governments from now.

Do the unions know this?

The situation is bad, very bad. It would not surprise me if Fianna Fail were cooking the books and the situation is worse than it is.

Labour consulted with the Unions and the Unions accepted 1.3 billion in pay cuts in Labours last pre-budget submission.

Its very important people are put back to work. That is Labour's main objective in fixing the economic mire.

Back on topic, the protesters are the Socialist Workers Party front People Before Profit and Eirigi. They are the ones causing the clashes and consist of less than 1% of the political spectrum. There are also other parties and unions at the protests protesting peacefully. Hatred towards the majority of protesters is unwarranted. I can understand why people would hate the PBPA/SWP and Eirigi.

Eliot Rosewater

Pride Fighter wrote: »

If you are a Libertarian, socially Labour is the most libertarian of all the parties. If social issues are important to you, Labour would probably be a closer fit for you than Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, who are more authoritarian than Labour.

Well I've actually a very selfish way of voting! Although I feel stronger about my social beliefs, they don't actually affect me. For example, I'm for same-sex marriage even though I'm not gay. Given that most people are looking after numero uno when they go to the polls, I'm not going to give up my vote for the good of others who probably don't care about my point of view.

But I do commend your party on its socially liberal stance!

Coillte_Bhoy

danman wrote: »

@GarlicBread,
what are the solutions that the protestors are giving?
Please give us an outline, because they don't seem to be very clear.

So are you suggesting that the varied groups that make up the protesters should outline their alternatives?? Sereiously?:P Basically you dont want to see protest i presume. Oh and if you could be bothered to take the time you could look up the economic policies of some of the groups involved in these protests, could you not?

danman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So are you suggesting that the varied groups that make up the protesters should outline their alternatives?? Sereiously?:P Basically you dont want to see protest i presume. Oh and if you could be bothered to take the time you could look up the economic policies of some of the groups involved in these protests, could you not?

Did you take the time to listen to the speaches made on Tuesday night?
Was there any real solutions put forward?

If they can outline a realistic proposal to bring us out of recession, I'll support them.
All they said was "we are angry"

is anger the solution? Or are there real economic solutions that might work.

I've yet to hear any solutions, only populist chants with no meaning.

Enlighten us.

Coillte_Bhoy

danman wrote: »

Did you take the time to listen to the speaches made on Tuesday night?
Was there any real solutions put forward?

If they can outline a realistic proposal to bring us out of recession, I'll support them.
All they said was "we are angry"

is anger the solution? Or are there real economic solutions that might work.

I've yet to hear any solutions, only populist chants with no meaning.

Enlighten us.

Hello!! It's a protest rally. It's hardly the place to outline an alternative economic policy in minuate detail. So did you actually listen to the speeches?? So all you heard is speakers saying "We are angry"? Well fair enough, some people hear what they want to hear i suppose. As for the economic policies of the likes of the SWP and Eirigi why dont you look them up?? Surely you have some idea what the hard left stand for?????

gandalf

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So are you suggesting that the varied groups that make up the protesters should outline their alternatives?? Sereiously?:P Basically you dont want to see protest i presume. Oh and if you could be bothered to take the time you could look up the economic policies of some of the groups involved in these protests, could you not?

No that poster along with me want to find out exactly what "Those behind the protest have a much better plan than the government does" means.

If you come onto this forum and make a statement like that then people shouldn't be surprised if others question you on it.

Of course in reality that statement in my opinion is a fallacy. Those behind the protest have no idea how to get us out of this mire.

BlitzKrieg

Hello!! It's a protest rally. It's hardly the place to outline an alternative economic policy in minuate detail.

why?

Gunmonkey

Ok so read up on the SWP, PBP and Eírigi. Policies seem to be:

SWP - From their "What we stand for" page....ern lots of "corporations are evil"...."workers never have a say"....."board members skin puppies alive for fun" type stuff. not much in the way of economic plans or hard data to explain what they hop to achieve and how.

PBP - From here A bit more here...

Free, Quality, Healthcare for All
*No to privatisation or a two-tier health system. *Reverse the bed closures and cut backs in local hospitals. For a comprehensive national health service which treats people according to medical need and not money

A Fair Tax System
*A fair taxation system to fund public services based on ability to pay, not bin taxes and stealth taxes that hurt the less well off.

Housing for All
* An emergency government programme to provide social and affordable housing to all that need it.

Decent Public Transport
*Cheaper fares, extra buses and major investment in an integrated public transport system to reduce congestion and pollution.

Workers Rights
*Full union rights and equal conditions for all workers and an end to outsourcing and exploitation of immigrant workers.

Real Local Democracy
*Proper funding for local government and genuine public participation, transparency and accountability in planning and development issues.

Protect our Environment
*Major investment in sustainable energy, public transport and public recycling infrastructure to deal with global warming and pollution.
*Real protection for our natural and coastal environment Usd Ireland's Natural Resources to Benefit the People
*Corrib Gas and other vital natural resources to taken into public ownership and used for the benefit of the people.

Keep Ireland out of US led War
*End the use of Shannon by the US military for War in Iraq or elsewhere.

People Power
*Active support for grass-roots community and social movements to bring about real change.
Alternative Economic Agenda Document
An Alternative Economic Agenda
On April 29th 2009, the People Before Profit Alliance launched the Alternative Economic Agenda Document, which sets out in more detail the Alliance's policy in realtion to the economy.

Best part seems to be from their Alternative Economic Agenda Document of raising tax for people earning over €70,000 to 48% and over €100,000 to 70%...so its all "tax the rich into oblivion" since people will jump at the chance to work their way up to a high paying job only to be cut down to less than most of their employees....just by cutting the take home of the 29,000 people who earned more than €200,000 and "paid almost €4 billion in income tax on earnings
of €13 billion, an effective tax rate of 30%.. An effective tax rate of 70% would have collected €9 billion from them for the public purse". Oh, and reversing all Public sector wage cuts. Overall....yyeeeeeah, a load of well meaning bull that would pretty much ruin our nation, full .pdf is on the link I posted.

Eírigi - From here 32 county nuts, cant stand em. Bringing Northern Ireland into our country would drive us further into the s***storm as it costs the UK BILLIONS to run at a loss.

Overall, I dont buy any of their policies. Some have merit but the rest is bull, "punish those who earn more than me and probably worked their arses off to get there" style childish whinging.

Scofflaw

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Hello!! It's a protest rally. It's hardly the place to outline an alternative economic policy in minuate detail. So did you actually listen to the speeches?? So all you heard is speakers saying "We are angry"? Well fair enough, some people hear what they want to hear i suppose. As for the economic policies of the likes of the SWP and Eirigi why dont you look them up?? Surely you have some idea what the hard left stand for?????

Hold on...I thought the idea was that the protests were a grassroots movement by outraged citizenry...now you tell me they're hard left protests?

Forgive me for saying so, but we already know that the vast majority of people in this country don't support the hard left - proven again and again at the ballot box - so why should the majority of people support these hard left marches?

cordially,
Scofflaw

oppenheimer1

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The situation is bad, very bad. It would not surprise me if Fianna Fail were cooking the books and the situation is worse than it is.

Its a pretty big accusation. Don't we have independent auditors to sign off on the accounts?

Labour consulted with the Unions and the Unions accepted 1.3 billion in pay cuts in Labours last pre-budget submission.

Not enough. I seriously cannot see a Labour government forcing cuts on their paymasters. I'd prefer a FG majority government than a FG/Lab one.

Its very important people are put back to work. That is Labour's main objective in fixing the economic mire.

Yet they haven't offered any real solutions, just offering criticism for criticism sake. Its easy to be populist when you don't have to implement unpopular policies.

Back on topic, the protesters are the Socialist Workers Party front People Before Profit and Eirigi. They are the ones causing the clashes and consist of less than 1% of the political spectrum. There are also other parties and unions at the protests protesting peacefully. Hatred towards the majority of protesters is unwarranted. I can understand why people would hate the PBPA/SWP and Eirigi.

Eirigi, although not linked to paramilitaries, contain known troublemakers, some of whom are especially violent. The leadership refuses to condemn their violence. No sensible individual would have anything to do with them tbh.

Pride Fighter

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yet they haven't offered any real solutions, just offering criticism for criticism sake. Its easy to be populist when you don't have to implement unpopular policies.

They have. The Labour party has a full set of proposals on its website. They advocate creating a strategic investment bank http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/126951276120662923.html

This would take 2 billion from the pension reserve fund (so no borrowings on international markets). This money would be used to fund businesses, civic infrastructure, start ups and businesses starved of cash. This would aid businesses and create jobs at the same time.

Jonny7

Am abroad, didnt see the protests, were the protesters normal people with a point or were they just stupid crusties?

dan_d

OP, I see your point, but the thing is it's a bit late now.
We're nearly 2 years into this whole economic crisis thing. The time to protest would have been last year sometime, really. We cannot reverse the paycuts and it's not going to happen to be honest, so can people please get past that. (and FYI, I've taken a paycut too, shortly to be followed by redundancy). We do not have the money. What we SHOULD be protesting at, if anything, is that nobody is being held accountable for what happened - from the banks/developers/regulators.
I am just not a supporter of the current Gov and although I support nobody else in there either, I do buy into the whole "I'll vote for FF again because there's nobody better " argument. BUT.......at this exact point in time I think that Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan as 2 individuals, actually have a better handle on the whole thing than most people think. Not their Gov as a whole - the rest of them are ridiculous. The one place they are seriously falling down on is job creation, but I like what I see with regards to what is coming out in recent weeks re:the regulator, EU involvement and (hopefully) the Croke Park deal. Things are appalling....at least the 2 Brians realise the level of "appalling".
Bringing in someone else now is all well and good but by the time they had got over the delight of getting in, kept all their promises to the unions, and got a good handle on what's going on, we'd be right back at square one and have undone any good work that has been done. FF will be out at the next election, but not before they've had to clean up some, if not all, of their mess.
Hatred towards protesters may be unjust, but protesting for the sake of it is pretty useless too.
And I have to ask - how is taking money from the pension reserve fund useful? We already have pension problems in this country, without doing that.

20Cent

danman wrote: »

Did you take the time to listen to the speaches made on Tuesday night?
Was there any real solutions put forward?

If they can outline a realistic proposal to bring us out of recession, I'll support them.
All they said was "we are angry"

is anger the solution? Or are there real economic solutions that might work.

I've yet to hear any solutions, only populist chants with no meaning.

Enlighten us.

You can't expect such a diverse group to appear with a Ph.d dissertation outlining their solutions. The broad message is that people are angry with how the current Gov made this mess and how they are handling it.
It was announced on Tuesday that there will be a conference to come up with a better plan.

"Right to Work Conference to bring together trade unionists, community groups, unemployed organisations, anti-poverty campaigners and concerned citizens. Our aim is to build a broad movement that uses people power to reverse current economic policies. We invite you to support this conference and contribute your ideas and experiences to getting such a movement going.
"

UNITE Hall 55-56 Middle Abbey Street, Dublin 1
12 noon, Saturday May 22nd

Why not go along with some suggestions?

gandalf

The problem is 20cent if you contain fringe extremists which this "Right to Work Conference" clearly does you will scare away the people you need to build a broad movement.

Also people are not stupid using a phrase like "reverse current economic policies" stinks of going back to the status quo which clearly we can not do. People have to accept that there have to be cuts to get this country back on track. Coming out with a glib comment like "You can't expect such a diverse group to appear with a Ph.d dissertation outlining their solutions" is diversion. I expect these people to have clear set of concrete points outlining what their alternative is if they want me or anyone else to join in the protest or at least explain what they hope to achieve.

The "we're angry" or "its the governments fault" is not enough for me and judging from the numbers these protests have attracted so far it is not enough for the vast majority of people in Ireland.

danman

20Cent wrote: »

You can't expect such a diverse group to appear with a Ph.d dissertation outlining their solutions. The broad message is that people are angry with how the current Gov made this mess and how they are handling it.
It was announced on Tuesday that there will be a conference to come up with a better plan.

"Right to Work Conference to bring together trade unionists, community groups, unemployed organisations, anti-poverty campaigners and concerned citizens. Our aim is to build a broad movement that uses people power to reverse current economic policies. We invite you to support this conference and contribute your ideas and experiences to getting such a movement going.
"

UNITE Hall 55-56 Middle Abbey Street, Dublin 1
12 noon, Saturday May 22nd

Why not go along with some suggestions?

The spoksman, who was on Newstalk breakfast on Tuesday, didn't exactly inspire confidence in the Right to Work campaign.

If he is representitive of the group, how can they be taken in any way seriously?

It's like the "I love Steak" group having a spoksman who's vegetarian.
Would think that this group would be taken seriously. Or would questions need to asked about the true motives?

And, yes, at a rally, iwould expect to hear some outline of what the protest wants to be done to solve the situation that the protesters are protesting for.
Is that too much to ask?
Unless, of course, the organisers simply don't have any real answers and they are simply using these protests to advertise their particular political parties.

As Scofflaw pointed out in a previous post, all the separate groups are connected to SWP, except Eirgi, who would protest at a childrens party.
Does that not look like it's simply being used as an excuse to get SWP media attention?

If the organisers outlined their policies, i.e. SWP policies, the moderate marchers might have a chance to form an opinion.
This is the only reason why they stick to the "We are Angry" mantra.

They have no real solutions, simply populist chants.

As I've said earlier.
If the opposition parties, or any party, sat down and came up with a proper plan. Then outlined this plan and organised a march to impliment these policies, the numbers would swell on the march.

As it is, the marches are pointless.

As for the OP, I don't hate the marchers, I simply think they have no direction and, in my opinion, they come accross as clueless.

20Cent

I've written to my TD's, gone to the Right to work protests (even though I disagree with most of what they say its the only show in town).

What am I supposed to do?