Lost planned from beginning doubters

conor.hogan.2

For all the people who think the writers are pulling it out their asses as they go along


rewatch season one especially -

1 - lockes white and black speech
2 - locke in claires dream with his freaky black and white eyes
3 - it was always jack and locke (faith vs science) - they both states at very different times ''i wished you believed me''.
4 - charlie always had a purpose - desmond always had the timeless specialness

Most of these are from season one - the start.

Mr. Incognito

For all the people that think they had a plan see all the series contradictions and flaws that have been pointed out.

For example pointless time travel.

Yitzhak Rabin

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think they had a general idea of where they wanted to go, but things like ABC extending it to 6 seasons introduced all the pointless time travel and other pointless mysteries.

More reasons that I think this is the case:

Locke clearly found the white light in season one.

He described seeing a beautiful white light, and said he looked into the eye of the island, and it was beautiful.

When he said that to Eko we are lead to believe that he had 2 encounters of the smoke monster, one in walkabout, and one in the season finalé. But when he talks to Eko he says "what did you see back there?, I saw it once you know.."

Also when he meets what we think is smokey in walkabout, he isn't scared. But when he meets him again in the s1 finalé he is terrified.

Further reason I think he say the light, is that when the light comes out of the hatch, it restores his faith. I think this is because he had been looking for the bright light again, and thinks he found it.

EDIT: Also he always talks about how it was 'the island' that brought them there. Mother describes the light as the heart of the island, and it did literally bring them there, by the electromagnetism effect it has causing the plane to crash.

Jay Ru

No offense to the author of this thread but this is kind of pointless. There is no absolute to prove if the writers had a plan or not. Personally i'm with the group that think they made alot of it up as they go along. No matter what evidence u come up with to say they had a plan some one is easily gonna come up with something to say they hadn't got a plan.

1 - lockes white and black speech
2 - locke in claires dream with his freaky black and white eyes
3 - it was always jack and locke (faith vs science) - they both states at very different times ''i wished you believed me''.
4 - charlie always had a purpose - desmond always had the timeless specialness

These points prove very little. All they do is show that u have 2 sides black and white, they theres faith v science and people with purpose. Just because these thing where mentioned in the first series or so and then they tie them in with the ending does mean that was the plan from the start, they cud of at any point decided to bring these things into play. They cud of just as easy decided that Walt was the one that was the savour of the Island and alot of people wud of said "See, told ya they always had a plan" I feel there's more evidence to prove the writers did make a whole lot up as they went along but as i said i'm sure theres someone on here that will feel the opisite, I guess its a question of fate really (that's a joke b.t.w.)

Mr. Incognito

They may have had some rough idea but when you look at central themes like the numbers and the fact that Kate has suddenly become a candidate it's pretty obvious that they can even tie up the Central Mysteries in the show.

Instead they drop in Jacob V MIB in the last series out of nowhere.

Mr.Nice Guy

Oh boy.

So the fact they referenced the black and white stones means they have had a plan all along? Shame they haven't been able to make references to the other gaping plot holes they concocted for themselves.

Some fans don't seem to see the possibility for retrospective referencing. As I said in another thread, if a giant talking Hurley bird had appeared this season it would not be evidence that they had a plan all along.

They may have known certain themes, such as faith vs science, but essentially they wrote a lot of weird and whacky stuff and made it up as they progressed. The fact that they reference stuff from the original seasons is not evidence that they had a plan. In fact, as Mr. Incognito says, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests there has been no overall, structured plan.

DonkeyStyle \o/

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

4 - charlie always had a purpose

Aye it was to save the baby wasn't it?

dudeitshurley

yekahs wrote: »

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think they had a general idea of where they wanted to go, but things like ABC extending it to 6 seasons introduced all the pointless time travel and other pointless mysteries.

More reasons that I think this is the case:

Locke clearly found the white light in season one.

He described seeing a beautiful white light, and said he looked into the eye of the island, and it was beautiful.

When he said that to Eko we are lead to believe that he had 2 encounters of the smoke monster, one in walkabout, and one in the season finalé. But when he talks to Eko he says "what did you see back there?, I saw it once you know.."

Also when he meets what we think is smokey in walkabout, he isn't scared. But when he meets him again in the s1 finalé he is terrified.

Further reason I think he say the light, is that when the light comes out of the hatch, it restores his faith. I think this is because he had been looking for the bright light again, and thinks he found it.

EDIT: Also he always talks about how it was 'the island' that brought them there. Mother describes the light as the heart of the island, and it did literally bring them there, by the electromagnetism effect it has causing the plane to crash.

Frankly the highlighted is incorrect and ridiculous. The writers themselves went to the studio to secure an end-date, 1 which they were happy with. They weren't forced to push for 6 seasons it's what THEY wanted. So anything they introduced since was what THEY wanted to introduce.

Mackman

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

For example pointless time travel.

I may be wrong here, but wasnt the time travel essential to MIB's "loophole"?

Without it, he wouldnt have been able to convince Locke that he had to die to get everyone back on the island, so he could take over Locke's body.

Demonon

At the end of the day, they sold out to ABC. You can argue for or against if it was planned to last 6 seasons but it doesn't really matter. The first season was incredible, ground-breaking television. After that it was all just a bit "meh". And I dunno how you can plan a storyline for a show to last 6 seasons when you aren't even sure if the 1st season will be successful.

Mr. Incognito

I may be wrong here, but wasnt the time travel essential to MIB's "loophole"?

Without it, he wouldnt have been able to convince Locke that he had to die to get everyone back on the island, so he could take over Locke's body.

Nope.

John Locke was told he would have to die to get everyone back. He was about to commit suicide when Ben saved him and then killed him. Once they were back on the plane some of the Losties ended up in the 1970's but in the present day MIB was somehow able to take over Locke's body and convince Ben to Kill Jacob.

In fact we were shown it was Jacob's intervention that brought everyone back, he even gave the guitar case to Hurley ffs.

The Losties detonated the bomb in the 70's to return to the present day. Had nowt to do with Jacob's death. In fact it was the equivalent of a time out for a series while the floated round in the past. Not integral to the hastily stiched up finale at all yet.

UNLESS: The bomb opened the alternate timeline which would be integral to the resolution, we'll have to see where it goes though. As Jacob was the architect of them going back and arguably was the cause of the timetravel then one could argue it was relevant. I'm not convinced till it all plays out though

Mackman

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Nope.

John Locke was told he would have to die to get everyone back. He was about to commit suicide when Ben saved him and then killed him. Once they were back on the plane some of the Losties ended up in the 1970's but in the present day MIB was somehow able to take over Locke's body and convince Ben to Kill Jacob.

In fact we were shown it was Jacob's intervention that brought everyone back, he even gave the guitar case to Hurley ffs.

The Losties detonated the bomb in the 70's to return to the present day. Had nowt to do with Jacob's death. In fact it was the equivalent of a time out for a series while the floated round in the past. Not integral to the hastily stiched up finale at all yet.

UNLESS: The bomb opened the alternate timeline which would be integral to the resolution, we'll have to see where it goes though. As Jacob was the architect of them going back and arguably was the cause of the timetravel then one could argue it was relevant. I'm not convinced till it all plays out though

The way i saw it was:

The Oceanic 6 have left. They are candidates for Jacobs job, so Jacob needs them back. Thats why he convinced them to come back. MIB knew this, so he used Locke, manipulated him into thinking that he would be the reason they would come back. When in reality, he just needed his body. MIB has an fairly big ego, so he figured, once he has Locke's body, he can kill Jacob (get ben to kill him), then kill the rest of the losties and win.
He needed the time travel thing to do this.

Now, as far as the rest of the time travel being part of the overall storyline, i dont know. However, it was really good in showing us who Dharma were, what they were doing, and what the incident was. This answered heaps of uestions from the first few seasons without which people would be complaining that they weren't answered.

Plus, as you've said, the alt. timeline could be part of the ending.

So overall i dont think the time travel was pointless at all

dudeitshurley

Mackman wrote: »

The way i saw it was:

The Oceanic 6 have left. They are candidates for Jacobs job, so Jacob needs them back. Thats why he convinced them to come back. MIB knew this, so he used Locke, manipulated him into thinking that he would be the reason they would come back. When in reality, he just needed his body. MIB has an fairly big ego, so he figured, once he has Locke's body, he can kill Jacob (get ben to kill him), then kill the rest of the losties and win.
He needed the time travel thing to do this.

Now, as far as the rest of the time travel being part of the overall storyline, i dont know. However, it was really good in showing us who Dharma were, what they were doing, and what the incident was. This answered heaps of uestions from the first few seasons without which people would be complaining that they weren't answered.

Plus, as you've said, the alt. timeline could be part of the ending.

So overall i dont think the time travel was pointless at all

it's either pointless or a contrived storytelling technique, either way it has no relevance to the end-game in the manner people thought it would when they introduced the concept. Flashbacks, flashforwards, flashsideways even they are all pretty linear, grounded and sensical to a degree. Time travel is just a nonsense for them to show the dharma storyline, even that has zero relevance in the end-game. meh. I'll forgive it for The Constant as a standalone ep :P

Mackman

dudeitshurley wrote: »

it's either pointless or a contrived storytelling technique, either way it has no relevance to the end-game in the manner people thought it would when they introduced the concept.

Neither was Dharma, neither was Russo, neither was Walt, Boone, or most all of the characters killed off in the first few seasons, so why have them in it at all?? Its a TV show, its about the journey. The whole show isnt about the last episode, its all of them together

dudeitshurley

Mackman wrote: »

Neither was Dharma, neither was Russo, neither was Walt, Boone, or most all of the characters killed off in the first few seasons, so why have them in it at all?? Its a TV show, its about the journey. The whole show isnt about the last episode, its all of them together

end-game does not equal last episode. S6 is the end-game. It's focused on "candidates" and MIB-Jacob and the FST.

You can't introduce massive concepts, place heavy importance on them at the time, entire seasons even, then call it a 'part of the journey' when they are disregarded or unanswered. Put it this way if i'm going on a bus journey from Donegal to Cork and we detour through Monaghan, Wexford and Kilkenny in that order to get to Cork i'm gonna ask the bus driver WTF was that about?!

Mackman

dudeitshurley wrote: »

end-game does not equal last episode. S6 is the end-game. It's focused on "candidates" and MIB-Jacob and the FST.

You can't introduce massive concepts, place heavy importance on them at the time, entire seasons even, then call it a 'part of the journey' when they are disregarded or unanswered. Put it this way if i'm going on a bus journey from Donegal to Cork and we detour through Monaghan, Wexford and Kilkenny in that order to get to Cork i'm gonna ask the bus driver WTF was that about?!

Thats my point, you're constantly looking to the end, how it will turn out.
What about all the stuff you see on the way though Monaghan, Wexford and Kilkenny? Far more interesting than just jumping straight there, or going though Tipperary

dudeitshurley

Mackman wrote: »

Thats my point, you're constantly looking to the end, how it will turn out.
What about all the stuff you see on the way though Monaghan, Wexford and Kilkenny? Far more interesting than just jumping straight there, or going though Tipperary

But of course you SHOULD be looking to the end. Why would you want to take each plot development in isolation without relevance to an end? That's like watching Coronation Street!! It's supposed to be a story not a collection of short stories.

Mackman

dudeitshurley wrote: »

But of course you SHOULD be looking to the end. Why would you want to take each plot development in isolation without relevance to an end? That's like watching Coronation Street!! It's supposed to be a story not a collection of short stories.

Its not a collection of short stories, its one long story.
When i watch an episode of Lost, im not thinking, "But how will they fit that into the end??That wont make any sense!!!" im thinking, "wow, i didn't see that coming!".

As a result i really enjoy every episode

Soby

Mackman wrote: »

Thats my point, you're constantly looking to the end, how it will turn out.
What about all the stuff you see on the way though Monaghan, Wexford and Kilkenny? Far more interesting than just jumping straight there, or going though Tipperary

Ya wouldnt see much tbh:P













only joking

dudeitshurley

Mackman wrote: »

Its not a collection of short stories, its one long story.
When i watch an episode of Lost, im not thinking, "But how will they fit that into the end??That wont make any sense!!!" im thinking, "wow, i didn't see that coming!".

As a result i really enjoy every episode

You're still not getting it!! You shouldnt frame your enjoyment of a specific episode in the context of the end-game but rather it should have tremendous relevance on the end-game.

Let's take an obvious example - The Dharma Initiative. Beginning in season 2 and stretching over 4 seasons they were apparently a major piece in the jigsaw. But they have ZERO to do with the end-game. Is it good storytelling to focus so heavily on certain things like Dharma for the bulk of a story then sweep it under the rug when it comes to the end?

Their story is far from told either, quick look at Lostpedia....


Historical

When did the DHARMA Initiative first arrive on the Island?
Why did DHARMA choose to study these particular fields?
How many stations and other facilities did the Initiative construct?
What is their power source?
How did they transport polar bears to the Island?
Why did they bring Polar bears to the Island?
How did a polar bear end up at "the exit"?
How much of the Island's history was DHARMA aware of? (How?)
Why did Pierre Chang use false names in the various films?
What was Jacob's relationship to the DHARMA Initiative, if any?

The Hostiles

What events precipitated the Purge?
Other than Ethan and Ben, did any other DHARMA personnel join the Hostiles?

Recent Events

Why are DHARMA food drops continuing even after the Purge?

Other

Why did they label most of their food, and other supplies, with the Swan station logo?

Mackman

dudeitshurley wrote: »

You're still not getting it!!

no you're not getting it,(:P) i understand what you're saying. There are a lot of questions unanswered, but tbh, i dont really care if we do find out those answers. Like:

"How much of the Island's history was DHARMA aware of?"

I couldnt care less, the shows not about Dharma, its about the losties, and their experiences on the island.
I would say for a lot of these things people will just have to figure out/guess for themselves.

Anyway, when they did answer questions, people still weren't happy. (whispers)

As for the relevance of Dharma to the "end-game", why should they have relevance? Yes, in season 2, they were important, but that was because the losties had just found out about them, and for all they knew, they were behind everything, but they weren't. They were the ones who had the "incident", which resulted in the hatch being built, which resulted in the losties and Des meeting. Thats the Dharma's part of this story.
They were just a vehicle to continue the losties story.

dudeitshurley

Mackman wrote: »

no you're not getting it,(:P) i understand what you're saying. There are a lot of questions unanswered, but tbh, i dont really care if we do find out those answers. Like:

"How much of the Island's history was DHARMA aware of?"

I couldnt care less, the shows not about Dharma, its about the losties, and their experiences on the island.
I would say for a lot of these things people will just have to figure out/guess for themselves.

Anyway, when they did answer questions, people still weren't happy. (whispers)

As for the relevance of Dharma to the "end-game", why should they have relevance? Yes, in season 2, they were important, but that was because the losties had just found out about them, and for all they knew, they were behind everything, but they weren't. They were the ones who had the "incident", which resulted in the hatch being built, which resulted in the losties and Des meeting. Thats the Dharma's part of this story.
They were just a vehicle to continue the losties story.

Ha :P No i get what you're saying too, i just don't agree! I've no problem with leaving certain things vague, open to interpretation or unanswered, but certain things need to be thoroughly fleshed out. If Dharma were purely relevant to season 2 or a minor storyline i could live with it. The Losties lived with them for almost an entire season yet we should be content in not knowing how Dharma knew so much about the Island? Seeing as Jacob is protecting the magical light i highly doubt he invited them to the island to explore it, so how did they know about it and it's magical properties? How, when, why?

If Lost was written as a book, chronologically as in the show, when it comes to the end you would be asking yourself what was going on. You'd have read 400 pages with 50 to go, expecting major Widmore-Ben-Dharma-lostie showdowns then find out it's all gonna centre on Jacob-MIB-losties. Even if the 1st 400 pages were superbly written, you're entitled to scratch your head and utter a WTF!!!!

All that being said, i thoroughly expect sunday nights episode to be standalone BRILLIANT, utterly brilliant but it's just gonna retrospectively be a frustrating head-scratcher!

nitrogen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

For all the people who think the writers are pulling it out their asses as they go along


rewatch season one especially -

1 - lockes white and black speech
2 - locke in claires dream with his freaky black and white eyes
3 - it was always jack and locke (faith vs science) - they both states at very different times ''i wished you believed me''.
4 - charlie always had a purpose - desmond always had the timeless specialness

Most of these are from season one - the start.

I bet you also believe in astrology, because all you're doing is cherry picking a few themes that could be interpreted dozens of ways. There is no evidence to show the writers had all this planned from the beginning. A rough idea, maybe.

After all, humans are pattern seeking animals.

jimbling

I defend lost all the time because I enjoy it.

But its possibly the only show of it's kind that I do enjoy. Gaping potholes normally piss me off no end. For some reason I get past them in Lost. Not sure why that is.

The show was completely made up as they go. The only thing I believe they actually knew from the start was that it would eventually be a Good vs Evil fighting over a mysterious Island.

jimbling

Mackman wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but wasnt the time travel essential to MIB's "loophole"?

Without it, he wouldnt have been able to convince Locke that he had to die to get everyone back on the island, so he could take over Locke's body.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Nope.

John Locke was told he would have to die to get everyone back.

Well that's not entirely true. It was Flocke who told Richard to tell Time Travelling John Locke that he had to die. So if time travelling had not occurred this would not have happened.


EDIT: Just to say also. If not for Time Travel, John Locke would never have become the leader of the Others. He would never have been "special" to Ben etc. It was John Locke walking into the others camp in 1954 and telling Richard that he was their leader 50 years in the future and then disappearing in front their eyes that made him so special.

jimbling

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They may have had some rough idea but when you look at central themes like the numbers and the fact that Kate has suddenly become a candidate it's pretty obvious that they can even tie up the Central Mysteries in the show.

Kate was always a Candidate.... she just had her name scratched off. We didnt know what that line meant, now we do. I really dont see how thats even a "central theme", never mind one that doesnt get tied up?

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Instead they drop in Jacob V MIB in the last series out of nowhere.

Again, you jumping at things for no reason. Jacob has been in the series since season one. He was ALWAYS going to be the main man.
Okay, I do think they pretty much invented the smoking monster = MiB late on.... probably during season 4..... but it wasn't dropped in in the last season.
Just because the viewer were not aware Flocke was MiB doesn't mean the writers didn't know. It was a twist in the show. If you go back and watch season 5 now it's damn obvious Flocke is not John Locke. To me that's quality writing.
Lost writers do plenty bad writing... but they also do very good writing. The Locke->Flocke->MiB was one of those IMO.

Marcaiocht_Tonn

jimbling wrote: »

It was John Locke walking into the others camp in 1954 and telling Richard that he was their leader 50 years in the future and then disappearing in front their eyes that made him so special.

Hang on, that's interesting actually! I wonder is that why Richard went to seek out Locke as a child? Because he'd met the older Locke in 1954 (which pre-dated the meeting between him and child-Locke, or chlocke as I like to call him) and wanted to verify that he was in fact going to be special? (only to be proven wrong when Locke failed his test)

Past lock can be referred to as Plocke. And wheelchair-alternative Locke can be called Whlocke.

jimbling

Marcaiocht_Tonn wrote: »

Hang on, that's interesting actually! I wonder is that why Richard went to seek out Locke as a child? Because he'd met the older Locke in 1954 (which pre-dated the meeting between him and child-Locke, or chlocke as I like to call him) and wanted to verify that he was in fact going to be special? (only to be proven wrong when Locke failed his test)

Past lock can be referred to as Plocke. And wheelchair-alternative Locke can be called Whlocke.

That's precisely why he did that.

Marcaiocht_Tonn

jimbling wrote: »

That's precisely why he did that.

Well presumably that's clever writing on the part of the writers - if I remember correctly, was the Richard/Child-Locke meeting in an episode that was earlier than the Richard/1954-Locke episode? If so, good work on their part...?

jimbling

Marcaiocht_Tonn wrote: »

Well presumably that's clever writing on the part of the writers - if I remember correctly, was the Richard/Child-Locke meeting in an episode that was earlier than the Richard/1954-Locke episode? If so, good work on their part...?

Yes it is before it... not by much though. Richard visited Child Locke in Season 4 and Locke Time Travelled back to 1954 early season 5.

They obviously knew that they were going to answer it that way at that stage, but still decent writing
The main point is:
In the early seasons when Ben first comes into it he tells John Locke he's special. He already knows Locke will become their Leader. Now this is a big deal... how the hell do they know this?

The writers then use the Time Travel mechanism to explain this retrospectively. It doesn't prove they planned it all along, they just managed to subtly and cleverly write it into the story.

No big deal was made of this resolution, and yet imagine if they never explained how The Others knew John Locke was special? People would be up in arms.

Basically. Time travel served many purposes in the story as well as giving the viewer insight into the history of the island..... it was certainly not pointless.

dudeitshurley

jimbling wrote: »

Kate was always a Candidate.... she just had her name scratched off. We didnt know what that line meant, now we do. I really dont see how thats even a "central theme", never mind one that doesnt get tied up?



Again, you jumping at things for no reason. Jacob has been in the series since season one. He was ALWAYS going to be the main man.
Okay, I do think they pretty much invented the smoking monster = MiB late on.... probably during season 4..... but it wasn't dropped in in the last season.
Just because the viewer were not aware Flocke was MiB doesn't mean the writers didn't know. It was a twist in the show. If you go back and watch season 5 now it's damn obvious Flocke is not John Locke. To me that's quality writing.
Lost writers do plenty bad writing... but they also do very good writing. The Locke->Flocke->MiB was one of those IMO.

No, no. Jacob is 1st mentioned at the very end of season 2 (20th episode Two for the Road). He is unseen until the s5 Finale. To say it was "ALWAYS" going to revolve around him or be the main man..... is a stretch. If you analyse it carefully - Jacob was introduced and inferenced as the 'spiritual leader' of the Others. A wise, great man who people had faith in. Turns out nobody knew **** about him in reality. Very similar to people worshipping God on faith. Whereas Jacob is most definitely human and has been living on the Island all that time.

It's easy NOW to say it was always going to revolve around him or him being the Main Man. But back in s1, s2, s3, s4, even some of s5 if would have been a lot LOT easier and sensical to say it would revolve around Dharma or Ben-Widmore. (it's an absolute given to say any end-game would revolve around the Losties). Of course Ben and Widmore are playing a role in the Finale but s6/end-game has not focused on them. If anything has made them out to be clueless pawns.

tvnutz

dudeitshurley wrote: »

No, no. Jacob is 1st mentioned at the very end of season 2 (20th episode Two for the Road). He is unseen until the s5 Finale. To say it was "ALWAYS" going to revolve around him or be the main man..... is a stretch. If you analyse it carefully - Jacob was introduced and inferenced as the 'spiritual leader' of the Others. A wise, great man who people had faith in. Turns out nobody knew **** about him in reality. Very similar to people worshipping God on faith. Whereas Jacob is most definitely human and has been living on the Island all that time.

It's easy NOW to say it was always going to revolve around him or him being the Main Man. But back in s1, s2, s3, s4, even some of s5 if would have been a lot LOT easier and sensical to say it would revolve around Dharma or Ben-Widmore. (it's an absolute given to say any end-game would revolve around the Losties). Of course Ben and Widmore are playing a role in the Finale but s6/end-game has not focused on them. If anything has made them out to be clueless pawns.

Have to agree with this. I don't think Jacob was meant to be as important as he turned out to be. Ben and Whitmore seemed to have such huge importance and as you said they just became clueless pawns.

Remember the episode where Ben brought Locke to see Jacob and Ben is talking to an empty chair and suddenly stuff starts flying around the room? I think they changed their minds soons after that. I think originally the writers were going with Ben being able to see Jacob,but Locke couldn't. Ben later gets annoyed that the invisible man (supposed to be Jacob) said "help me" to Locke. I took that to mean Ben was annoyed Locke was able to hear Jacob when Ben thought he was special and was only one of a few that could see him.

In a later episode Ben says he was just pretending,trying to trick Locke and that he was as surprised when stuff started getting thrown around the room. The way it was done,just made me think they changed their minds and threw Ben down the importance ladder and suddenly had this magical Jacob character they could use.

tony1kenobi

jimbling wrote: »

Gaping potholes normally piss me off no end. For some reason I get past them in Lost.

Aww come on.....3 days to the end and I don't even know about the potholes.....what the f*ck are the potholes??

jimbling

dudeitshurley wrote: »

No, no. Jacob is 1st mentioned at the very end of season 2 (20th episode Two for the Road). He is unseen until the s5 Finale. To say it was "ALWAYS" going to revolve around him or be the main man..... is a stretch. If you analyse it carefully - Jacob was introduced and inferenced as the 'spiritual leader' of the Others. A wise, great man who people had faith in. Turns out nobody knew **** about him in reality. Very similar to people worshipping God on faith. Whereas Jacob is most definitely human and has been living on the Island all that time.

It's easy NOW to say it was always going to revolve around him or him being the Main Man. But back in s1, s2, s3, s4, even some of s5 if would have been a lot LOT easier and sensical to say it would revolve around Dharma or Ben-Widmore. (it's an absolute given to say any end-game would revolve around the Losties). Of course Ben and Widmore are playing a role in the Finale but s6/end-game has not focused on them. If anything has made them out to be clueless pawns.

Okay, I thought it was much earlier in Season 2 that Jacob came into it. But still, Jacob was a massive part of the show. Just because he was unseen doesn't mean he was unimportant.

I have to disagree with you. I would say as early as Season 3 I was positive Jacob was the main man. I couldn't wait to find out more about him. I remember people being up in arms because we still didn't know about him even though he was mentioned almost every week.. It was setting it up for whats currently going on.

Yes, certainly I thought Ben/Widmore and Dharma would be more important than they are, but I always knew Lost would be resolved by the "spiritual" beings or whatever.

jimbling

tvnutz wrote: »

Have to agree with this. I don't think Jacob was meant to be as important as he turned out to be. Ben and Whitmore seemed to have such huge importance and as you said they just became clueless pawns.

You say this, but from day one (or whenever he was introduced) Jacob was the true leader of the others. Even before we knew ben couldnt see him, the point is he went to Jacob to receive orders.

tvnutz wrote: »

Remember the episode where Ben brought Locke to see Jacob and Ben is talking to an empty chair and suddenly stuff starts flying around the room? I think they changed their minds soons after that. I think originally the writers were going with Ben being able to see Jacob,but Locke couldn't. Ben later gets annoyed that the invisible man (supposed to be Jacob) said "help me" to Locke. I took that to mean Ben was annoyed Locke was able to hear Jacob when Ben thought he was special and was only one of a few that could see him.

Again, totally disagree. I thought that scene was done well. I think it even looks like Ben is making it up. Also, you can see the shock in Ben's face when things do start flying around the place... .... he hasn't a clue what's going on.

tvnutz wrote: »

In a later episode Ben says he was just pretending,trying to trick Locke and that he was as surprised when stuff started getting thrown around the room. The way it was done,just made me think they changed their minds and threw Ben down the importance ladder and suddenly had this magical Jacob character they could use.

Again, not sure how to respond.... Suddenly had this magical Jacob character


Maybe ye're right, and the writers didn't plan to have Jacob as big a figure as he now is.... and I certainly don't think they had the Jacob vs MiB planned from early stages. But it certainly wasn't "dropped in" in the last season out of nowhere..... which is what I was replying too.

Spiritoftheseventies

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

For all the people who think the writers are pulling it out their asses as they go along


rewatch season one especially -

1 - lockes white and black speech
2 - locke in claires dream with his freaky black and white eyes
3 - it was always jack and locke (faith vs science) - they both states at very different times ''i wished you believed me''.
4 - charlie always had a purpose - desmond always had the timeless specialness

Most of these are from season one - the start.

Well Lost producers were told to have an end date by studio bosses around the time of season four. So I think they possibly had it in mind to extend this a bit more than six seasons.
Was the end date itself forced of them.

tvnutz

jimbling wrote: »

You say this, but from day one (or whenever he was introduced) Jacob was the true leader of the others. Even before we knew ben couldnt see him, the point is he went to Jacob to receive orders.


Again, totally disagree. I thought that scene was done well. I think it even looks like Ben is making it up. Also, you can see the shock in Ben's face when things do start flying around the place... .... he hasn't a clue what's going on.


Again, not sure how to respond.... Suddenly had this magical Jacob character


Maybe ye're right, and the writers didn't plan to have Jacob as big a figure as he now is.... and I certainly don't think they had the Jacob vs MiB planned from early stages. But it certainly wasn't "dropped in" in the last season out of nowhere..... which is what I was replying too.

This is just how it felt to me at the time. Up until this I point I was pretty much like you,defending any negative thing anyone had to say about the show. I know Jacob was mentioned as the leader of the others but that he was just a man in charge,nothing special about him.

My reference to the "magical character" was my opinion that I don't think they planned him to be this several thousand year old guy guarding a magical light etc etc. I just can't see that it was planned that way. I'm not complaining about Jacob as a character,I really like how they did it and that he was really old and been there since the start,but this thread is about it being planned from the beginning and my opinion is that I don't think his character was planned from the start,they made it up as they went along.

jimbling

tvnutz wrote: »

This is just how it felt to me at the time. Up until this I point I was pretty much like you,defending any negative thing anyone had to say about the show. I know Jacob was mentioned as the leader of the others but that he was just a man in charge,nothing special about him.

My reference to the "magical character" was my opinion that I don't think they planned him to be this several thousand year old guy guarding a magical light etc etc. I just can't see that it was planned that way. I'm not complaining about Jacob as a character,I really like how they did it and that he was really old and been there since the start,but this thread is about it being planned from the beginning and my opinion is that I don't think his character was planned from the start,they made it up as they went along.

Can people please stop saying that I am defending every negative thing said about the show...that is just not true..... .I swear

Oh right... fair enough.

I know this thread is about it being planned from the beginning, but I was originally responding to Mr. Incognito's post that Jacob and Mib were just dropped into the series in the final season. I was just saying that that was not the case.

conor.hogan.2

wow forgot about this.

Anyway - cba reading it all.



But if you think the time travel or miv vs jacob is pointless you completly did not get the whole show or just plain never watched it.

Mr. Incognito

well Conor thank you for your constructive points. I've been posting in the Lost Forum for years and i can tell you right now that MIB V Jacob was alluded to in some generic black V white theme in the first series, but they had no idea where they were going.

Now that the whole show has run out we can see that Jacob was hastily dropped into series 5 and MIB was introduced very very poorly in series 6. The writing was awful and purgatory for the alt timeline was a con. No true Lostie was happy with the ending imo.

They had no idea at the start, this is plainly evidence that they had no idea when they show finished either focusing on soppy reunions and suddenly declaring that the show was character driven like it was Friends or something. Lost was probably the most debated show in history but the final was like something a ten year old child would put together in 3rd class english.

conor.hogan.2

well on top of posting in here it is clear you read the scripts and attending the meetings of the writers.....

jacob was shown late - but since season 2 (i think) he has been mentioned and the smoke monster has been shown or alluded to for as long as that also.

lost was/is a drama with a sci-fi twist it was always like that so a focus on relationships was obvious.

ABC seem to think it was not like something written by a ten year old.

You watched it from start to finish - you obviously enjoyed it, you may not have liked the ending but writing good tv that 90 ish percent like for 95% ish of the time is pretty good in fairness.

Sad Professor

I would agree that Jacob and MIB were definitely not planned from the beginning. However, the writers claim they always intended to have the black vs white conflict be represented by two characters. And I'd be inclined to believe them. But since Jacob/MIB were basically just an extension of the Jack/Locke conflict, it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. The writers just used them as a way to firmly ingrain the Jack/Locke conflict into the history of the island.

Of course, that doesn't excuse the writers from messing up many of the details regarding Jacob/MIB and not properly integrating them into the existing mythology. There was clearly a lot of retcons along the way. Jacob was originally introduced as some mysterious ghost-like figure in a cabin in season 3. That got completely dropped with no explanation provided. We are left to assume that it was really MIB, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

Re: the show being character-driven, the writers always said that they considered Lost to be primarily a character-driven show. Whether it actually was or not is up for debate. Obviously a lot of people didn't watch it for the characters. But the writers were very consistent is stating that they spent most of their time writing the characters and that's what they believed the show was about.

Personally, I loved the ending. Looking back, the main thing I would take issue with is the heavy handed religious stuff in the final scene. Imo they should have been more ambiguous about the Sideways and tied them in more with the island, but fears of a Sopranos-like backlash probably persuaded them otherwise.

conor.hogan.2

elena was creeped when she went to jacobs cabin - and stated he wasnt there for a long time, so it is fairly clear that the person in the cabin was not jacob as far as we saw.

along with the whispering "help me" would add to locke thinking he had a purpose etc which would fit in with mib plan to use his dead body.

true - i watched it as a sci-fi esque show but it was a drama.

yeah it was overtly religious but then again the show always had religious undertones from charlie, locke, ecko etc never mind the whole good vs evil faith vs science themes so it wasnt like they dropped it in out of nowhere for the craic.

Johnmb

Sad Professor wrote: »

Re: the show being character-driven, the writers always said that they considered Lost to be primarily a character-driven show. Whether it actually was or not is up for debate.

Given that about half of each episode took place off island and only focused on one or two characters from the start, it would be pretty hard to debate against what the writers claimed. As for having it planned out from the start, I'm sure they could have given a rough summary of the story. Details would have changed, but they'd have had an idea as to where they wanted to go.

uncleoswald

Johnmb wrote: »

Given that about half of each episode took place off island and only focused on one or two characters from the start, it would be pretty hard to debate against what the writers claimed.

I'd argue that since the makers of Lost were initially approached by the studio to make a show simply about some castaways on a deserted island, but Abrams and co. said they would only be interested if it was a mysterious supernatural island, that the writers viewed it primarily as a mystery show.

As for having it planned out from the start, I'm sure they could have given a rough summary of the story. Details would have changed, but they'd have had an idea as to where they wanted to go.

We'll probably never know for sure but I doubt it. Too many loose ends and stories and characters that petered out or went nowhere.

The really weird thing looking at the plotting decisions on Lost is if, at the end of any season, ABC had decided to sack the writers (or they all went missing in a plane crash) and bring in a whole new staff, the new staff would be able to have wrapped up the show in a way that made more sense in respect to what had come before then what we were left with. Since the writers made a lot of noise about not been able to please everyone I can only presume this was done on purpose, but the question is was this cowardly or brave?

darrenh

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No true Lostie was happy with the ending

I'm a true Lostie and I liked the ending.:eek:

KoolKid

darrenh wrote: »

I'm a true Lostie and I liked the ending.:eek:

+1 Me too.
Some people were expecting answers to every little thing. That was never going to happen.

Sad Professor

I don't think there's any conflict between it being a character show and it being a mystery show. It was both. The vast majority of the mystery in the first season related to the characters themselves. Who they were before the crash, how they got on the plane, etc. The broader island mythology involving hatches and smoke monsters was very slow to develop.

The writers treated the island and its history as if it were just another character on the show. Like the human characters, it had its own mysterious past that was slowly revealed. They talked about it like this from the early days. ABC did not under any circumstances want a sci-Fi or supernatural show, nor did they want a show about a weird island. But the writers got around this as best they could.

The main problem that developed with Lost as a mystery show is that the island ended up being a far more interesting "character" than any of the humans inhabiting it were after a few seasons.

blue_steel

Sad Professor wrote: »

The main problem that developed with Lost as a mystery show is that the island ended up being a far more interesting "character" than any of the humans inhabiting it were after a few seasons.

Excellent point. By season 6 the off-island stuff was annoying - I wanted to know the history of the island, not that of Jack or Kate or even Locke. I think the fans who was more interested in the island were disappointed by 6, those who were more interested in the characters were not. Simple as that.

conor.hogan.2

i was happy with all seasons - and interested in both characters and the island in fact im more a scifi fan than a drama fan.

The story of the island was told through characters......

spenia

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

For all the people who think the writers are pulling it out their asses as they go along


rewatch season one especially -

1 - lockes white and black speech
2 - locke in claires dream with his freaky black and white eyes
3 - it was always jack and locke (faith vs science) - they both states at very different times ''i wished you believed me''.
4 - charlie always had a purpose - desmond always had the timeless specialness

Most of these are from season one - the start.

In "Lost: The Final Journey" the writers said that the Smoke Monster (MIB) wanted to kill the survivors. However, he didn't kill Mr. Eko because he 'did not fear it', which does not make sense imo.

And 4. The writers thought long and hard of Charlie's death, but they did not know who to kill until much later. Talking about much later, they came to think of an ending by season 3. Time travel, Black Rock history, MIB, Jacob, even Linus were not intended from the start. Linus was a 3 episode character untill later they decided to make him into a main with a story.

So no, i don't think they thought of everything from the very start.