Applying for jobs: put your complaints here

Dionysus

Mine is simple: is it beyond the powers of the VEC to create a single website for all VEC school vacancies in Ireland? And, crucially, a single application form that can be used for all jobs?



A moment ago I finished filling out a nine-page application form for a single VEC, and a single available post. I then had to make four copies of that nine-page application, and of course include my qualifications with each of those applications.


Why are these people so inconsiderate? Are the VECs of this state among the most inefficiently organised institutions in Irish society? Like, I mean, just how fúcking difficult would it be for these VEC arseholes - and that is precisely, and clearly, what they are let me assure you - to allow us to fill in a single application form and send it for each post? Really? By all means allow a page or two supplement to be filled out which is for the VEC in question alone. But this current VEC application system is fúcking retarded.

/rant over.

maynooth_rules

So many things about the VEC system is flawed. Often they have simply have too many people on the interview panel, with some knowing next to nothing about teaching. I don't know what it is but I always get the feeling that each VEC job I go for has already been filled

Dionysus

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I don't know what it is but I always get the feeling that each VEC job I go for has already been filled

Before I even get called for a VEC job I get this impression. Very, very, very strongly.

So much so, that after filling out all these applications I'm going off on a 6-week break from Ireland. Either pessimism or reality triumphs - whatever it is, I'm gone.

gaeilgegrinds1

Agree with everything said here. They're a bunch of cowboys!

implausible

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I don't know what it is but I always get the feeling that each VEC job I go for has already been filled

VECs do not have a monopoly on this situation.

A few years ago, I applied for three jobs in a voluntary secondary school, all involving my subject, English, and one of them was for my exact combination of subjects. I filled in the form and sent off my cv a week before the closing date. I rang the school the following week, enquiring about interview dates, as I was trying to book flights, and the secretary told me that the interviews had already been held! Bullsh*t, they didn't even try to make the story plausible by waiting until the closing date. I never got any correspondence afterwards, not even a 'thank you for applying', which was just plain bad manners and with me having over 7 years of experience teaching and marking state exams, very unprofessional.

The problem is that the DES makes these schools advertise, even when they have a suitable candidate in situ. The rest is a charade.

Oh and by the way, I did get a job, one that existed, in a VEC! The form is, however, a giant pain in the ass.

mrboswell

deemark wrote: »

VECs do not have a monopoly on this situation.

A few years ago, I applied for three jobs in a voluntary secondary school, all involving my subject, English, and one of them was for my exact combination of subjects. I filled in the form and sent off my cv a week before the closing date. I rang the school the following week, enquiring about interview dates, as I was trying to book flights, and the secretary told me that the interviews had already been held! Bullsh*t, they didn't even try to make the story plausible by waiting until the closing date. I never got any correspondence afterwards, not even a 'thank you for applying', which was just plain bad manners and with me having over 7 years of experience teaching and marking state exams, very unprofessional.

The problem is that the DES makes these schools advertise, even when they have a suitable candidate in situ. The rest is a charade.

Oh and by the way, I did get a job, one that existed, in a VEC! The form is, however, a giant pain in the ass.

I hear ya! Schools could already have made their mind up on a position but have to advertise.

I know a guy you applied for a position in the country (not a commutable distance) and didn't hear anything back so rang about an update and was told "as sure that job was already going to the parson that had been teaching it" How I wished he had recorded the phone call!!

Happened to me as well - school I was in for my dip advertised a job and I interviewed, fairly well, and the teacher that was in the job that they were making permanent got it. No problem there but what did annoy me was that I was never going to get the job over this person so why did they call me for interview?

At least I got a bit of interview practice in...

smcgiff

mrboswell wrote: »

I hear ya! Schools could already have made their mind up on a position but have to advertise.

Yip that's a problem.

Why do school's look for written references at application stage. Huge pain, especially, as has been said jobs are already gone (one of which I know for certain was gone before advert placed).

mrboswell

smcgiff wrote: »

Yip that's a problem.

Why do school's look for written references at application stage. Huge pain, especially, as has been said jobs are already gone (one of which I know for certain was gone before advert placed).

We're singing from the same hymn sheet - I spent 2 years in a school (inc dip) and cant get a written ref as it against policy - that just looks as though they wont give me one!

Delphi91

mrboswell wrote: »

We're singing from the same hymn sheet - I spent 2 years in a school (inc dip) and cant get a written ref as it against policy - that just looks as though they wont give me one!

Not really. The following is a quote from Citizensinformation.ie

There is however, no statutory entitlement to a reference in employment law in Ireland. This means that you do not have any automatic right to a reference from an employer when you leave employment. While employers are not obliged to provide references (or act as a referees), they may do so entirely at their own discretion.

If they do provide one, it will often be generic/bland with little or no "real" information in it because in the case of a poor/ineffective teacher, an employer is not legally allowed to give a bad reference. So, by default, all references tend to be good ones (sorry if I've burst anyone's bubble!!)

TheDriver

I must defend the VECs here because I have found them to be very fair and above board. You can appeal interview decisions and everything is done to a tee unlike religious run sec schools (not all). Yes someone already in the school generally gets the job but if the principal knows the person already there is doing a good job, why would they risk getting someone who they don't know? It makes common sense and its a pain that they have to advertise but its the way it goes. I got a job in a VEC school from an ad but must say the principal took a gamble because he didn't know me.
Any VECs I have applied to have the forms on email and will send it out via email and you can fill it out electronically and print it out hence use it again and again with copy and paste.

spurious

I'm with TheDriver on the VECs, as employers and in over 25 years of dealing with them from a union point of view, I have found them to be very fair.

In most cases in Ireland, a job IS already being done by someone in the school and there is no-one on this forum who, if they were the one already in place would not expect to be the one to get it. This 'already someone in the job' is what you get in a system that brings in part-time and contract workers instead of giving full-time permanent jobs to teachers and it is definitely not unique to the VEC sector.

mrboswell

Delphi91 wrote: »

Not really. The following is a quote from Citizensinformation.ie



If they do provide one, it will often be generic/bland with little or no "real" information in it because in the case of a poor/ineffective teacher, an employer is not legally allowed to give a bad reference. So, by default, all references tend to be good ones (sorry if I've burst anyone's bubble!!)

Its not hard to believe that someone might read between the lines as a reference that is "generic/bland with little or no 'real' information" may not be bad but it what it doesn't say that is the problem.
As you say one could include "Was here every day, came in on time" etc without anything really positive.

Fact is that just because it doesn't say anything bad doesn't mean that it is not a bad reference. People can be afraid of putting something down on paper so don't like giving them out - which I understand

Anyway reference issue it going sideways. To be honest it was just to say that its hard enough looking for a job without adding the difficulty of getting a written reference, which some schools seem to require.

mrboswell

TheDriver wrote: »

I must defend the VECs here because I have found them to be very fair and above board. Yes someone already in the school generally gets the job but if the principal knows the person already there is doing a good job, why would they risk getting someone who they don't know?
It makes common sense and its a pain that they have to advertise but its the way it goes. I got a job in a VEC school from an ad but must say the principal took a gamble because he didn't know me.
Any VECs I have applied to have the forms on email and will send it out via email and you can fill it out electronically and print it out hence use it again and again with copy and paste.

Fair and above board is not running interviews having already decided that a teacher in situ will get the job. If it was a matter of avoiding risk then there would be no one teaching schools. I understand the logic of "better the devil you know" or whatever but just because someone is doing a good job doesn't mean that another couldn't do it even better.

It doesn't make the least bit of common sense that they have to advertise "because its the way it goes" - quite simply its a massive waste of resources on a department that it over-stressed already if schools have to run interviews (I'm presuming that interview panel members get expenses, but regardless its certainly a waste of their time and of those that interview). As I said how can it make common sense it the position is already decide upon?

For me forms in general are a pain so VEC is just a part of that.

spurious wrote: »

I'm with TheDriver on the VECs, as employers and in over 25 years of dealing with them from a union point of view, I have found them to be very fair.

In most cases in Ireland, a job IS already being done by someone in the school and there is no-one on this forum who, if they were the one already in place would not expect to be the one to get it. This 'already someone in the job' is what you get in a system that brings in part-time and contract workers instead of giving full-time permanent jobs to teachers and it is definitely not unique to the VEC sector.

Agreed concerning the system, I'm just saying that its nonsense to say that the 'best' person always gets the job - which is what the interview process pretends to strive for.


On a final note I tend to think that the VEC's are much better run and organised schools.

Delphi91

mrboswell wrote: »

Its not hard to believe that someone might read between the lines as a reference that is "generic/bland with little or no 'real' information" may not be bad but it what it doesn't say that is the problem.
As you say one could include "Was here every day, came in on time" etc without anything really positive.

Fact is that just because it doesn't say anything bad doesn't mean that it is not a bad reference. People can be afraid of putting something down on paper so don't like giving them out - which I understand

Anyway reference issue it going sideways. To be honest it was just to say that its hard enough looking for a job without adding the difficulty of getting a written reference, which some schools seem to require.

Which is why, to all intents and purposes, a reference is virtually a waste of time. If a school is going to employ you or consider employing you after an interview, it will be the phone call to your current/last employer that will really give the relevant info.

mrboswell

Delphi91 wrote: »

Which is why, to all intents and purposes, a reference is virtually a waste of time. If a school is going to employ you or consider employing you after an interview, it will be the phone call to your current/last employer that will really give the relevant info.

Absolutely - I'm saying that I can't understand why schools waste everyones time by asking for them :rolleyes:

Delphi91

mrboswell wrote: »

Absolutely - I'm saying that I can't understand why schools waste everyones time by asking for them :rolleyes:

Well, it's a starting point at least.

I know of one school who don't give references, but instead give a summary of the employees time with the school - "he/she has been with us for x years, during which time they taught a, b, c, etc". No comments about being diligent about getting on with staff and students, etc.

mrboswell

There should be a standard across the board - why ask for a written reference unless you are always going to get one from potential employees?

A starting point should be the same for all schools and all potential employees.

But its far too much to ask for in Ireland.

Each to his own said the farmer when he kissed the cow...