Barry Connell beats Nina in a finish...

brandon_flowers

No its not a joke, I couldn't believe it either but Barry Connell managed to get a tune out of his mount to get up and beat Nina. A half decent jock would have won by 10 lengths on Bullock Harbour.

Commentator says "A sympathetic ride from Connell, he's not really gone for the horse either" Must know SFA about bumpers over here.

SRFC

oh dear,was on dessie hughes's my self but my god was in knots of laughing watching em win,must be some horse to win with him onboard..jp magnier looks up to em imo

Morgans

Completely over the top about Connell as usual. He is ugly in the saddle, possibly the ugliest around, but that ride was the best of the day by a long chalk, and showed up Nina for not having a proper clock in her head. 90% of jocks would have gone for broke when Nina swept by, but Connell was happy that he had enough to get back at her. When Connell knows he is on the best horse, he rides them from the front and keeps them out of trouble. If you can see beyond the style, you'd have seen a top-class ride yesterday.

brandon_flowers

This is not a personal attack but I don't know if I could ever take one of your posts seriously after the above statement.

Morgans

brandon_flowers wrote: »

This is not a personal attack but I don't know if I could ever take one of your posts seriously after the above statement.

That's ok. In hindsight, its clear that Nina went too soon. And Connell deserves great credit for not going with her, allowing her to go clear and be confident enough to reel her in. Connell good, Nina bad in that one race.

Where do you have the problem?

Featherfoot

Ah here , Ugly style ! there is no Style , sitting too far back, zero balance thus uable to give this lad any type of squeeze , and nearly came off when he tried give him a slap ( not that Bullock harbour needed it ) .

Nice horse though , and you can buy a 3Ib claim .

dicknorris

thats a great horse to get that jockey home

Morgans

This is the usual sort of reaction to Barry Connell.

I can understand why, but I think it is always over the top. If I ever back a horse with him up, I know where I stand before the race begins. Of course, Nina is supposedly so good, that she could make it as a professional, or "she is as good as any man". Yet, IMO, has been riding like a pillock for a while now. And again, last night was no difference. Yet, no-one is nearly as quick to criticise. Is it because she looks stylish?

There have been relatively few times where I've thought a Connell's horse would have won but for the jockey. The worst Ive seen him was winning on Frascati Park in Stratford I think.

The same is generally true for JP Magnier, Sam Waley Cohen or any other amateur who rides a high-class horse, and it was true for Brian O'Connell. Generally, if the horse is good enough, it will win.

LutherBlissett

Well, the "generally if the horse is good enough it should win" sentiment is certainly is not true. Seriously? In a tight finish, who would you rather have in the saddle - an on form professional or an amateur? Strength and judgment are absolutely key in situations like that. Little things become vitally important, like the ability to use the whip in your weaker hand to keep the horse on a line. It is just an empirical fact that pros do make a difference when it comes to the crunch. The above mentioned skills can only be honed by constant practice.

On Connell - I didn't see the race this thread is about. In general, he doesn't have a brilliant reputation. I think it is arguable that he contributed substantially towards Dunguib's defeat in Cheltenham by poorly judged ride. Style isn't everything, but he's such a messy jockey that sometimes you would worry about his flapping and kicking distracting the horse when the race is heating up.

Nina - has lots of successes to her name. However, I don't rate her as incredibly highly as others do. She seems to get edged out in a surprising number of finishes. She definitely has the whip skills and drive position perfected, but she does, I think, lack somewhat in the strength department.

Morgans

Two things Luther. You say that "Generally, if the horse is good enough it will win" is "certainly" not true. You seem to forget that I said generally. There are very few races where if you swop jockeys the result will be different. If I was to put a figure on it, I'd guess less than 2%.

You are talking as if Barry and Brian O'Connell are the same jockey.

SRFC

he only won th race because the horse was much better than ninas..the horse carried him to victory ffs sure he cant push a horse out,an to even mention him in the same sentence as barry o connell is ridiculous,its not the lads fault dunguib didnt win his last 2 races,the horse isnt good enough overall,sure he went an rode a few winners the day after cheltenham

LutherBlissett

Sorry for the confusion between Barry and Brian; long day - just scanned the thread. For what it's worth, I'm not convinced by the abilities of either jockey; that was partially the cause for the accidental conflation!

But still, I stand what I said about good jockeys being important to winning races in terms of being more polished finishers. In addition, what you don't realise is that many races, although they can be nicked in the last couple of furlongs, can also be won in the middle of the race - a pro jockey tends to be a better tactician than an amateur. Really. Would you rather have Walsh/McCoy/Carberry (Paul)/Johnson on your horse, or an amateur?

Very few horses are steering jobs in reality, no matter how it may appear on television. They all have their quirks and needs, and professional jockeys just have more experience in dealing with such.

Morgans

SRFC wrote: »

he only won th race because the horse was much better than ninas..the horse carried him to victory ffs sure he cant push a horse out,an to even mention him in the same sentence as barry o connell is ridiculous,its not the lads fault dunguib didnt win his last 2 races,the horse isnt good enough overall,sure he went an rode a few winners the day after cheltenham

Another person mixing up the O'Connell's. So, when he wins he is damned, when he loses he is damned. Lazy minded i think. If I had backed Bullock Harbour, I couldnt have asked for better.

Morgans

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion between Barry and Brian; long day - just scanned the thread. For what it's worth, I'm not convinced by the abilities of either jockey; that was partially the cause for the accidental conflation!

But still, I stand what I said about good jockeys being important to winning races in terms of being more polished finishers. In addition, what you don't realise is that many races, although they can be nicked in the last couple of furlongs, can also be won in the middle of the race - a pro jockey tends to be a better tactician than an amateur. Really. Would you rather have Walsh/McCoy/Carberry (Paul)/Johnson on your horse, or an amateur?

Very few horses are steering jobs in reality, no matter how it may appear on television. They all have their quirks and needs, and professional jockeys just have more experience in dealing with such.

Of course, there is a difference in standards between Walsh and Barry Connell, however, they must race against each other in less than 10 races each year. But, for the vast majority of horses that Ruby wins on, they could be ridden by McCoy, Geraghty, P Carberry, Geraghty, Johnson, Choc, Russell, PA Carberry, Townend, Lee, Brennan etc with no difference. Given that it is this elite bracket of jockeys who win and contest most races, there is relatively few races where the skill of the jockey makes a material difference to the outcome. It is generally the best horse that wins the race.

SRFC

Morgans wrote: »

Another person mixing up the O'Connell's. So, when he wins he is damned, when he loses he is damned. Lazy minded i think. If I had backed Bullock Harbour, I couldnt have asked for better.

any other half decent jock would have won easily on that horse,the best horse just about won with hardly any help from the lump onboard..end of story

finbarrk

SRFC wrote: »

any other half decent jock would have won easily on that horse,the best horse just about won with hardly any help from the lump onboard..end of story

Hardly any more of a lump than the high stool lads critisiising him. Fair play to him.

SRFC

finbarrk wrote: »

Hardly any more of a lump than the high stool lads critisiising him. Fair play to him.

hes worse than jp magnier and thats saying something..hes an awful jockey shouldnt be allowed near a race horse

convert

SRFC wrote: »

hes worse than jp magnier and thats saying something..hes an awful jockey shouldnt be allowed near a race horse

According to the racing post, he's ridden 7 winners from 26 rides in the UK (with 3 seconds and one thrid), and 16 wins from 148 rides in Ireland (with 16 second, 13 thirds and 18 fourths)... Hardly somebody who shouldn't be allowed near a race horse! :rolleyes:

Ok, he may not be as stylish as some of the other jockeys mentioned throughout the thread, he can't be all that useless to have ridden more than one winner. They can't all be down to the horse carrying him home... Even a 'bus' needs some riding in a race...

I have to agree with finbarrk when he suggested that the real experts with talent are those who are sitting on the sidelines, not actually riding the horse!

Goldcupfav

In fairness to Barry Connell he's not the most stylish jock by a long shot but the man puts a lot of his own money into Irish racing. He very rarely rides horses he doesnt own himself and you know what your getting when you back him(a horse thats going to make the running or race handy).Id be happy if there were more owners like him in racing.

Whyno

Both O'Connell and magner have there haters but both have proven that they can ride winners.
Who cares what they look like on board as long as they get the job done. Not every jockey will look as smooth as ruby in the saddle.
Alot of guff being handed out here by las that probably never rode a horse in there lives. Its fair easy to ride a finish when ya sitting on the sofa kicking, screaming and punching your best aint it. I wonder how many of us would succeed doing it at 40 miles an hour and after holding up a beast for 1m6f who just pulled the life outta ya.

LutherBlissett

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. Just because some posters in the Horse Racing forum have never won a race does not make Connell a good jockey.

That's like saying - because Ireland does not have a soccer team at the World Cup, nobody in Ireland is free to analyse developments at it. Moreover, if you have never played in a soccer match, you can't criticise what happens in any matches at the World Cup, or in fact, any matches ever, since you've never stuck your neck out and participated. Does that sound reasonable? Hardly.

convert

Reasonable and constructive criticism is acceptable. Saying that he's an awful jockey and shouldn't be allowed near a racehorse is not.

I admire anybody who gets up and rides their own horses in a race - there's thousands of owners who wouldn't - and to be excessively harsh and critical of a real amateur rider is something that bugs the hell out of me.

Featherfoot

Yes ,but unfortunatley the is no place for the real amateur in Irish racing , as the standard of Irish amateurs in very high because the business of selling younger horses dictates this .
We have so much talent , the easie part is riding the finish if you're in the frame !, keeping , settling , educating these youngsters is where the real horsemanship is .
In the UK fair enough slip on the wolly colours and auld breeches and flap away popin fences on a 14 year old in a P2P .
Fair play to Barry and he is entitled to ride his horse but the reason he stood out ,It was like watching the add for the Champions leauge , when your man sitting on the sofa drinking a beer gets up and scores the winning goal .

Denners

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Carberry (Paul)

I definately wouldn't want this fella on my horse tbh

SRFC

Denners wrote: »

I definately wouldn't want this fella on my horse tbh

why wouldn't you?hes one of the most gifted jocks ever.,hes riding for a trainer out of form thats only reason he hasnt had winners..like a drink or two but that wouldn't put me off

LutherBlissett

Carberry is strong and stylistic. Brilliant at getting a horse to jump into the bargain, an actually useful attribute for a jump jockey. If he was riding for an in form trainer, he'd be as good as Walsh or McCoy etc. He may not have had the big horses or the quantity of rides those guys have had, but he is still absolutely excellent when he has to be.

Juwwi

ln fairness to barry connell's mounts they all go off at bigger odds than if a better jockey was on board so u are in fact getting value on his mounts if u back them.

l never back him think he is awlful but he pays all the bills so its up to him
if he wants to ride them.

Denners

SRFC wrote: »

why wouldn't you?hes one of the most gifted jocks ever.,hes riding for a trainer out of form thats only reason he hasnt had winners..like a drink or two but that wouldn't put me off

Carberry is too much of a loose cannon for me, not my taste at all. Thats just me though, outside Ruby, Townend and A.P I would have to fancy Jason Maguire, really after coming to fruition now imo.

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Carberry is strong and stylistic. Brilliant at getting a horse to jump into the bargain, an actually useful attribute for a jump jockey. If he was riding for an in form trainer, he'd be as good as Walsh or McCoy etc. He may not have had the big horses or the quantity of rides those guys have had, but he is still absolutely excellent when he has to be.

I wouldn't agree with you there, your saying he has the same riding ability as McCoy and Ruby. Granted he would have more winners as these 2 are nearly always on quality horses, but certain horses need certain style jockeys imo, eg I wouldn't fancy A.P on Hurricane Fly instead of Ruby or Townend as their styles are very contrasting.

premierstone

Denners wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you there, your saying he has the same riding ability as McCoy and Ruby.

I would go even further tbh, Carberry is the most naturally talented jockey of he's generation imo

Whyno

LutherBlissett wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. Just because some posters in the Horse Racing forum have never won a race does not make Connell a good jockey.

That's like saying - because Ireland does not have a soccer team at the World Cup, nobody in Ireland is free to analyse developments at it. Moreover, if you have never played in a soccer match, you can't criticise what happens in any matches at the World Cup, or in fact, any matches ever, since you've never stuck your neck out and participated. Does that sound reasonable? Hardly.

A ridiculous argument..Hmmm really. We're not refering to soccer or any other sport other than horse racing and in this case the riding of a horse.
Ive only ridden a few ponies and one or two camels and tbh i know fcuk all about how to ride horse. But we get fellas on here trying to debate whether a jockey is good or bad. The fact is BOC is a poor impression of a jockey. He still gets the job done.
A lot of the guys on here reckon if they are not riding a finish like mccoy or cruising in behind like ruby your not a jockey. There is so many different styles of jockeys out there its very hard to compare the best.
As it stands we are talking about amateurs and one in question Barry O'Connell. The man has put so much into racing and will continue to do so and fair play to him for riding his own horses.
To conclude "the hurler(whatever sportsman you want to put in) on the ditch always knows more than the player on the pitch". That makes sense doesnt it.

SRFC

what has his money got to do with him being brutal on a horse?hes comical trying to race a horse,he gets a winner or two but most other jockeys would have won on that horse a lot easier imo

Whyno

SRFC wrote: »

what has his money got to do with him being brutal on a horse?hes comical trying to race a horse,he gets a winner or two but most other jockeys would have won on that horse a lot easier imo

Where did i say anythin about him being a stylish rider???? Hes entitled to ride any horse of his own should he so wish. There is gorses he won on that no other jockey has succeeded on. Marley Park bieng one to spring to mind

SRFC

Whyno wrote: »

Where did i say anythin about him being a stylish rider???? Hes entitled to ride any horse of his own should he so wish. There is gorses he won on that no other jockey has succeeded on. Marley Park bieng one to spring to mind

what did he beat in them 2 bumpers? nothing,he useless end of story

Cantoris

I think you need to distinguish between their ability to ride and their ability to ride a finish.

Take the two Magnier brothers. Tom hadn't a clue and couldn't ride a finish. JP at least has half a brain although he has deteriorated over the last few years and I think he's scared of falls now, after that shocking one he had a few years back.

Barry Connell is able to ride, and I'd say he's a better rider than most of us on here. Is he weak in a finish? Of course he is. He rides infrequently and that's what happens. When you see a 10lb claimer being outridden in a finish we allow him the excuse that he's inexperienced. Well Barry Connell might have ridden in 200 races, but it's over a seven to ten year period so only rides 20/30 times a year, and he must be around 50 now so no spring chicken. The likes of Nina and others ride in all the bumpers and it's like comparing Tony McCoy with a five pound claimer, except Connell does not have his claim anymore. Experience makes a huge amount of difference.

Take Paul McMahon last night winning the bumper on his own horse. Not great in a finish and he gave Double Double a poor ride in the Land Rover. So poor positioning and weak in a finish. At least Connell gets his horses in the right position, most of the time.

Denners

Cantoris wrote: »

Take Paul McMahon last night winning the bumper on his own horse. Not great in a finish and he gave Double Double a poor ride in the Land Rover. So poor positioning and weak in a finish. At least Connell gets his horses in the right position, most of the time.

In fairness he got a good ride out of him in Punchestown a few weeks back when he came 2nd out of a big field. Didn't see yesterdays race but he is actually alright at times imo.

SRFC

barry connell is useless.fact you cant defend him hes brutal on a horse same with most who ride in bumpers thsts why their not pros..bookies love bumpers fact

Denners

brandon_flowers wrote: »

No its not a joke, I couldn't believe it either but Barry Connell managed to get a tune out of his mount to get up and beat Nina. A half decent jock would have won by 10 lengths on Bullock Harbour.

Commentator says "A sympathetic ride from Connell, he's not really gone for the horse either" Must know SFA about bumpers over here.

Just watched the race, gave me a good laugh! He looked like he was sitting at home in his armchair on top of the horse, he didn't even come off the bridle coz he didn't know how to!

Must be fun to ride your own horses though but if he used a stable jockey or that he would surely win alot more races.

Morgans

SRFC wrote: »

barry connell is useless.fact you cant defend him hes brutal on a horse same with most who ride in bumpers thsts why their not pros..bookies love bumpers fact

No one has claimed that there aren't better jockeys out there than Barry. No one has claimed that Barry isn't below average. However, those who back his horses, knowing who is riding them, and then bitch and whine about the jockey afterwards are just about the lowest of betting office brains pool. Those who dont appreciate why Connell is riding the horse, and obviously dont factor in jockeyship before placing a bet. And, i think the amount of races he loses that he should have won is completely overstated. I can tolerate people who say that they will never bet a horse with him riding. I hope they went with Nina in Bullock Harbour's race. Those who bet on his horses and then whine about it after are fools - the type who shout for a horse to fall so their 2 euro won on a horse 20l back in second might come in. I cant think of one off hand where a horse lost purely down to his ability. As you say, he restricts himself to bumpers where he won't be competing against the very best often.