Ireland has gone Batty - Lecturer in UCC in trouble over Fruitbat Sex Article

Macha

Good point The Corinthian.

Just this morning I was reading an article about the World Cup in South Africa. They're clearing the streets of homeless people & prostitutes (sad in and of itself). But the sentence that jumped out at me was the following one:

many cases those in need, like women with children and disabled people, are referred to places of safety, where they can access welfare services,” said Edna Mamonyane, spokeswoman for the Johannesburg Metro Police this week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0519/1224270655623.html

As if men can never be "in need".

Zardoz

As someone who worked in UCC for a number of years and was also involved in disciplinary issues it doesnt surprise me that UCC is involved.
Time and time again that institute has shown itself to believe it is above the law and its disciplinary procedure is nothing more than a kangaroo court.
Kudos to Dr Evans for going public and showing the world what a joke of a place UCC is .

The Corinthian

taconnol wrote: »

As if men can never be "in need".

I would be a little bit more forgiving of that one. Just as it is wrong for one to cite sexual inequality in places like Saudi Arabia in a discussion on sexual equality in Ireland (or the West in general), South Africa is not exactly Ireland in this regard. Women there are still treated in a far more sexist fashion and the idea of women being more more "in need" than men is borne out by their fairly well documented (at least in the black community) disadvantaged position in that society.

Of course, if it was a European or American official who had said that, then I would completely agree with you.

Macha

The Corinthian wrote: »

I would be a little bit more forgiving of that one. Just as it is wrong for one to cite sexual inequality in places like Saudi Arabia in a discussion on sexual equality in Ireland (or the West in general), South Africa is not exactly Ireland in this regard. Women there are still treated in a far more sexist fashion and the idea of women being more more "in need" than men is borne out by their fairly well documented (at least in the black community) disadvantaged position in that society.

I hadn't thought about it that way. To be honest the first thing I thought was South Africa is a country that experiences significant gender inequality and these are largely a result of gender stereotypes, including the idea that men cannot be needy. So of course this sort of attitude will be more prevalent somewhere like that.

I suppose it's the chicken/egg argument.

CDfm

Don't you think though in an area like psychology or sociology where people may have their own strong views on gender behaviour that it is very easy for things to be interpreted or amplified out of all proportion.

Just say I am working with someone and the ask me to do something and I refuse for whatever reason say its ethical grounds, if the person, is female they can play the gender or harrassment card.

They may do so either maliciously or, if they genuinely wrongly believe it to be the case innocently.

Nonetheless, I am sunk either way.

Galvasean

I'm glad I work in such a liberal environment. We trade innuendos for fun. Helps stave off the boredom.

nkay1985

The Corinthian wrote: »

In fairness we don't know the full story, so there may be more to it than this 'offending' Fruitbat Sex article, so I would tend to agree with you with regards to hearing the full story first. I've known of at least one case where an academic was sanctioned for things that were not publicly made known, but were valid accusations.

Given this, he is not under sanctions for 'the full story' AFAIK, only this. If he is indeed being sanctioned for a number of transgressions, then these should be listed and he should be given an opportunity to defend himself. He may ultimately still be guilty of far more than a Fruitbat Sex article, but if this is the only thing that he is accused of officially then it becomes little more than trial by a star chamber and I would sue them sideways in his shoes.

Yeah I get the sense that this is the scenario here.

It's awful that the law makes it so easy for a malicious person to seriously damage another person's life. I'm not saying this is the case here but the debate this ignites is certainly interesting.

The Corinthian

nkay1985 wrote: »

It's awful that the law makes it so easy for a malicious person to seriously damage another person's life. I'm not saying this is the case here but the debate this ignites is certainly interesting.

As I said earlier, academia should not be taken as an accurate reflection of the real World. I think most anyone who has worked or even done a postgrad (when you're doing a primary degree you're largely sheltered from the politics) will have realized that academic institutions are run in a bizarre manner - and I use the term 'institution' with good reason...

CDfm

this article amused me in a little dogs hump peoples legs way and i cant believe that we have reached a stage where telling someone their zipper is done could be construed as harrasment

i know we shouldnt compare fora but tLL is likely to be more explicit than tGC and women do have far more open discussions about lots of stuff like that than guys.

Hush dear, not in front of the women

May 22, 2010 4:19 PM | By - ©The Times, London
Bats are one of the few nonhuman species to engage in fellatio. Fruit bats indulge in oral sex.

Current Font Size:
NO OFFENCE: Bats fellate other bats. Deal with it

Sorry, are you offended? Is it the existence of fruity bat behaviour that offends you, or that we chose to break the news in a family newspaper? Animals, apparently, copulate often, and enthusiastically. Some do it with the same sex. Some are monogamous, but most are shameless harlots. Teenage olive baboons resemble the UK's premiership footballers let loose in a dodgy nightclub; one distracts the alpha male while the others team up for a group session with the missus.
Sometimes, these facts are a little too bald for the more sensitive among us. Dr Dylan Evans, a British scientist at an Irish university, has been disciplined for sexual harassment after he showed a female colleague a peer- reviewed article entitled: "Fellatio by fruit bats prolongs copulation time".
After an investigation by the university, Evans was cleared of engaging in a pattern of sexually inappropriate behaviour, but rebuked for the bat incident. His punishment was a two-year period of monitoring and appraising, and special training.
What was in the special training? Could it be:
Rule one: Do not discuss the sexual habits of animals with any lady colleagues in case they faint.
Rule two: If your work involves researching sexual behaviour, please ensure that you obtain disclaimers from all colleagues before using any of these words: "sex", "penis", "bottom".
Rule three: Try to find euphemisms that will not offend. "Lady garden" is nice, if you must refer to female down-below regions. "Making love" is a pretty phrase.
Rule four: If you fear that scientific debate is being stifled by fear of harassment accusations, tough. We must protect lady scientists, and their pretty little ears must be defended.
The investigation into Evans concluded that he showed his colleague the paper in the spirit of "sexual innuendo". He claims that it was part of a continuing debate about non-human sexual activity and what that tells us about our own behaviour.
Why does it matter? What is wrong with modern womanhood that we insist on parity in all things, yet retain the right to behave like heroines in 19th-century novels who accidentally stumble across some copulating horses? It is bad enough that the modern office environment makes us pretend that humans don't have sex; now we must all collude in the myth that animals are built like Barbie and Ken, all smoothed-over genitalia and wholesome innocence.
There are doubtless genuine cases of sexual harassment out there. But all are betrayed by women who whinge about trivia - up to and including fellating bats.

Galvasean

Dylan better not tell his co-workers about this....

iptba

Galvasean wrote: »

Dylan better not tell his co-workers about this....

From what I recall from documentaries, male lions are a bit "sexist" and don't do their fair share of the work.

CDfm

And the chimp story is just so typical of males

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090407-chimps-meat-sex.html

Galvasean

Well, if anything good comes from this fiasco, maybe more people will be made aware of behaviour in animals once thought exclusive to humans.

CDfm

Galvasean wrote: »

Well, if anything good comes from this fiasco, maybe more people will be made aware of behaviour in animals once thought exclusive to humans.

And that our needs and enjoyments are similar to theirs.

It would be nice to see that harmful accusations like this may also be used as weapons.

The Corinthian

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0522/1224270868918.html

Galvasean

The Corinthian wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0522/1224270868918.html

I guess sex does sell. Or at least kinky animal sex does.

RedDragonJack

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/lecturer-i-didnt-get-fair-hearing-in-batsex-case-2442885.html

kangaroo

Sanctions against lecturer in bat sex case lifted by court
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1202/1224284572626.html

and

‘Bat’ lecturer succeeds in quashing sanctions
http://www.irishexaminer.com/home/bat-lecturer-succeeds-in-quashing-sanctions-138255.html

UCC seem to be spinning it:

In a statement, UCC said it welcomed the court’s decision to uphold its finding that Dr Evans was guilty of sexual harassment.

vs

She made a formal complaint and the external investigation found that while Dr Evans had no intention to offend, the incident fell within the definition of sexual harassment under the university’s Duty of Respect and Right to Dignity policy.

Mr Justice Kearns yesterday declined to quash the investigation findings but said he was quashing the sanctions imposed on foot of those findings.

The judge also awarded costs to Dr Evans.

Dr Dylan Evans, a behavioural science lecturer in UCC’s department of medicine, should have been admonished or received a verbal warning rather than being required to undergo counselling and two years of monitoring, president of the High Court Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns said yesterday.

CDfm

It does nothing for UCC to do a spin on it.

As a College and institution this has already harmed their own reputation and this case has become a cause celebre among academics.

I first heard about the case from a lobbyist in the US . She was fairly shocked at what was happening Dr Evans, and, UCC's behavior.

FoxT

UCC, along with other colleges are campaigning for fees to be reintroduced.

They should show that they are serious about this by spending less money on internecine warfare.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Pity there's no mens group to speak out on this. If a woman was being treated so ridiculously there'd be feminist groups condemning it left right and centre.

Best of luck to the man

CDfm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Pity there's no mens group to speak out on this. If a woman was being treated so ridiculously there'd be feminist groups condemning it left right and centre.

Best of luck to the man

It was a feminist lobbyist from the US who sent me the article for the thread and she had gotten it from a female academic in Canada and they were circulating it to their friends & others. Thats how I started the thread.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Pity there's no mens group to speak out on this. If a woman was being treated so ridiculously there'd be feminist groups condemning it left right and centre.

Best of luck to the man

It was a feminist lobbyist from the US who sent me the article for the thread and she had gotten it from a female academic in Canada and they were circulating it to their friends & others. Thats how I started the thread.

That doesn't disprove his point e.g. just because feminists are interested in stories with a gender angle doesn't mean men should expect they'll rush to help them.

Meirleach

It said it noted the court’s ruling regarding the sanctions imposed on Dr Evans and its disciplinary proceedings against him in respect of “breaches of confidentiality”, would now proceed.

So I'm guessing that they'll just reimpose whatever sanctions they've just been forced via court order to lift, just that they'll now be sanctions for "breaches of confidentiality"

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

That doesn't disprove his point e.g. just because feminists are interested in stories with a gender angle doesn't mean men should expect they'll rush to help them.

I try to avoid these debates nowdays - it is true of some feminists but others are egalitarian. -the US womens e-zine www.jezebel.com often run well referenced stories on it and then you have Mary T Cleary (& other feminists in Navan) who set up Amen.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I try to avoid these debates nowdays - it is true of some feminists but others are egalitarian.

Egalitarian in discussions is not the same as being egalitarian in action.

And jezebel.com ("Celebrity, Sex, Fashion for women") is not the same as an academic feminist or somebody in the equality sector.

Bottle_of_smoke's point:

Pity there's no mens group to speak out on this.

still stands in my view.

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

Egalitarian in discussions is not the same as being egalitarian in action.

And jezebel.com ("Celebrity, Sex, Fashion for women") is not the same as an academic feminist or somebody in the equality sector.

Bottle_of_smoke's point:
still stands in my view.

This is a side issue and is wildly off topic and I didnt start the thread for feminist bashing.

Jezebel.com is a fairly well respected publication and cutting edge. Look at its treatment of the Naomi Campbell beats up driver story and its editorial stance.

http://jezebel.com/5484655/naomi-campbell-miss-piggy-and-the-joke-of-the-violent-woman

Its review of a Saturday Night Live sketch

http://jezebel.com/5420821/snl-says-domestic-violence-is-hilarious---when-directed-at-men

So a US feminist and Canadian academic blogging or circulating the Lecturers story isn't action.

Anyway, I dont agree with you.Its stereotyping.

iptba

I think why a man could be left in the lurch like this, possibly with his career in tatters, is an interesting issue. It is very unlikely to have happened in reverse i.e. a woman would have been found guilty of sexual harrassment, etc. So the gender/equality is relevant in my opinion. No one is saying you have to agree of course.

And you still haven't pointed out Irish feminist/equality groups (or groups anywhere - an individual is different from a group in the influence they have) that stood up for him that would make Bottle of Smoke's point invalid:

Pity there's no mens group to speak out on this.

To have a big effect, advocacy groups would ideally need to be in the country.

Just because you may not be into the idea of the need for men's groups doesn't mean we all have to agree with you.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

That doesn't disprove his point e.g. just because feminists are interested in stories with a gender angle doesn't mean men should expect they'll rush to help them.

I don't know what's so radical about this. I've heard feminists say this themselves including on tGC i.e. men, don't expect us to sort out problems you have or something to that effect.

CDfm

Thats a totally different topic & maybe you should start a thread on it -lets see what happens to Dr Evans first and whether or not his union,colleagues etc supports him and what UCC actually does.

That will be a lot more interesting .