Janet Street Porter "Depression? It's just the new trendy illness!"

Darmstrong

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1278510/Depression-Its-just-new-trendy-illness.html

Just read this article that Janet Street Porter wrote, Any thoughts?

"At the moment, trendy women are allegedly suffering from ' depression' "
Do you agree?

Sorry, i KNOW some people dislike asking women's opinions in the LL but i really had to ask, what do ye think of this article?

It disgusted me.

miss5

I'm just reading the full article now, It's very cruel of this women to
presume people say this because it's fashionable. How are people going to
feel seeking help when someone writes about it in this manner. I expect there
shall be numerous complaints.

Jesus Wept

The term 'depressed' is used liberally by many people, they use to describe any mood mood they experience that is even remotely poor, despite them being generally happy contented non-depressed individuals.

ztoical

depression is a very misunderstood condition [actually it covers several different conditions] and I do find that alot of people are in the habit of saying they are depressed without ever being diagnosed. People mistake being sad for being depressed just like people say they've the flu when they just have a cold.

That being said what JSP says here is a collection of anecdotal ramblings with little research or direction , I honestly couldn't read the whole thing in one go as she just rambles all over, making lots of comments about this and that but not really offering anything other then frankly dangerous opinions of the just shut and get over it variety. Yes some people need a good kick up the bum but for someone with clinical depression just telling them to get over it can lead to them taking drastic measures and even their own lives. She seems to think that success equals happy and can't understand why well off people suffer from depression. Of course your more likely to see depression diagnosed in middle income families as they are more likely to go see a doctor. There are plenty of lower income and third world people suffering from depression but few ever seek treatment just like 20 years ago no one in this country would seek treatment for it....actually why am I saying 20 years more like 2 TBH. There are lots of illness that are common in one country that aren't as common in the next doesn't mean they aren't proper illnesses that shouldn't be treated - you don't see nearly as many autoimmune diseases in third world countries should we stop treating people from them here? Her impression that only well off women get depression goes against studies of postpartum depression which shows that lower income women are more likely to suffer. It's also very focused on women which of course is over looking the same group that is always over looked when it comes to depression men, esp young men which is the group we see the highest suicide rates.

I can see underneath all the waffle an idea of what she's getting at but really should have taken a step back and thought about what she was writing before publishing. I can see either an apology coming or her digging her heels in and digging herself in deeper.

Faith

1. I fúcking can't stand Janet Street Porter, and anything that comes out of her mouth is a load of bollox
2. It's in the Daily Fail.

So, to sum up, I read the first few paragraphs and couldn't keep going. In keeping with 1 and 2, above, I'm going to assume it's a load of shíte in any case. Case in point, she describes how she only heard about depression a couple of years ago. Seriously?

Xiney

yeah, gotta say that I saw "dailymail" in the URL and didn't even bother reading it.

Anybody who believes anything written in that sh!terag deserves whatever they get, tbh.

captainspeckle

Faith wrote: »

I fúcking can't stand Janet Street Porter, and anything that comes out of her mouth is a load of bollox

+1

She is a complete twatbag who is a sad excuse for a journalist.

Wibbs

She raises an interesting point for debate, even if its somewhat cackhanded(or hackhanded maybe?). I would agree that it does seem to be a "fashionable" disease in the last 10 years. Medicine does have these fashions too BTW where illnesses or procedures become more common and then go out of fashion. IE glue ear, routine tonsil removal, widespread neonatal circumcision. All valid procedures when required, but at times it seems more required than at other times.

I would defo feel it's over diagnosed and over medicated. The pill for every ill. Where the net of disease is spread wider to include people who either aren't depressed or require little intervention for that to resolve itself naturally.

When that report came out that suggested that SSRI's were little more than placebo for depression, the hippies had a field day. "Oh look they dont work". It said nothing of the sort.What it said was they were little more than placebo in low level depression, but the more severe the case the more they worked and had a significant effect. What that told me was that the lower level types simply didnt need to be on such medications. Medications with often severe side effects. That this group were not medically depressed. Yet so many people are advised to take these drugs.

It reminds me of the anti biotic craze of the past where they were handed out like smarties. With the result that we have a real problem with anti biotic resistance and a population with a reduced immune response. Have a cold? Take an antibiotic. FYI they have zero, nada, zip effect on viruses which cause colds(or any virus). I dont just blame the doctors either. Patients would insist they come out with a pill for their ill. "My little jane or jack is sick, give me penicillin" kinda thing.

My worry is we're storing up future problems if we are being over prescribed this class of drugs. You see this more in the US where this notion of a pill for every ill is very strong. You're fat? There's a pill for that. You've some back pain? Oh have some codeine. With the result that there are a large group of painkiller junkies around(In ireland too BTW. There are a lot of solpadiene junkies here). You're feeling down? Oh right here's another pill. Dubious.

This depression label is more attached to women too. Now there is something in that men will tend not to present with it as they're less likely to seek help, but I think there's more to it. Women seem to suffer more from low level states like these than men. Women have lower levels of seratonin in the brain for a start. That said the link there is tenuous from what Ive read. You can have someone with low levels who are perfectly fine, yet another with higher levels who are not. So a woman with lower levels outa the box who is happy as pig in poo, yet a man with higher who is very down. Complex stuff.

ztoical

Wibbs wrote: »

She raises an interesting point for debate, even if its somewhat cackhanded(or hackhanded maybe?). I would agree that it does seem to be a "fashionable" disease in the last 10 years.

If someone was to ask me to name the "fashinable" disease of the last 10 years I would be more inclined to say it was autism then depression. Seemed at one point nearly every child had 'mild' autism as you'd parents scrambling to make it seem like their child was 'special'. Also another issue that only seemed to be effecting middle to upper class demographics. Again you've something that is more likely to caught in these groups purely because they are more likely to get treatment.

Wibbs wrote: »

This depression label is more attached to women too. Now there is something in that men will tend not to present with it as they're less likely to seek help, but I think there's more to it. Women seem to suffer more from low level states like these than men.

I do think the depression label is more attached to women but I think it's dangerous to go down that road as your ignoring groups of people who are at risk, the groups we see the higher suicide rates in is young man under 35 - they account for 40% of the suicides in this country. There is a stigma attached to depression wither JSP or anyone else wants to view it as fashionable and this group is the least likely to look for help.

Wibbs

ztoical wrote: »

If someone was to ask me to name the "fashinable" disease of the last 10 years I would be more inclined to say it was autism then depression.

Its defo up there alright.

Seemed at one point nearly every child had 'mild' autism as you'd parents scrambling to make it seem like their child was 'special'. Also another issue that only seemed to be effecting middle to upper class demographics. Again you've something that is more likely to caught in these groups purely because they are more likely to get treatment.

Dyslexia another one. Now I know kids with both dyslexia and autism(mild to strong), but again that net was spread wider than it needed to be IMHO.

I do think the depression label is more attached to women but I think it's dangerous to go down that road as your ignoring groups of people who are at risk, the groups we see the higher suicide rates in is young man under 35 - they account for 40% of the suicides in this country. There is a stigma attached to depression wither JSP or anyone else wants to view it as fashionable and this group is the least likely to look for help.

I agree. Though IMHO there are gender diffs in teh spectrum of mental illness. Both in type, severity, risk of successful suicide, age of presentation etc. Cultural, biological? mixture of both perhaps. Just i my own life, I knew a few women who attempted suicide, but only one who succeeded. Whereas with the men all but one succeeded(and that was a bloody lucky break).

liah

I didn't read the article itself but I do kind of agree with the sentiment. Depression does seem to be the "in" thing. Everyone seems to have it these days, which, tbh, is a massive insult to people like me and my family who seem to be genetically effected (if that's even possible, either way all but me have been on medication, and I've been recommended for medication but refused).

I'm just sick of people claiming they have depression when they're upset about, oh, I don't know, their favourite footie team losing or some other such inane shíte. They don't understand the difference between "casual" and "clinical" depression. It's also spawned the emo generation where it's cool to be depressed, so a lot of kids are acting depressed when they aren't even remotely close to being so.

Dyslexia is another one.. a lot of really lazy people claim dyslexia and take away from those who do actually suffer.

It's upsetting.

Truley

The article is a load of tripe but it is an interesting subject. I do think the term 'depression' is thrown around too liberally. While calling it a 'fashion' or 'trend' is very harsh, I do think in recent years there seems to be a culture where it's cool to be seens as dark and tormented. Look at how celebrities like Megan Fox and Kristen Stewart are always showcased as these beautiful, angsty souls. We are bombarded with interviews in magazines like OK and Hello constantly detailling some celebrity's eating disorder or relationship issues.

I can definately see it in my brother's generation (he's just turned eighteen.) I see so many girls his age have blogs and facebooks detailing how depressed they are, self harm, their thoughts of suicide. It seems every second one of his female friends have some form of depression. When I was that age it wasn't cool to introverted or desolate, we constantly strived to portray a confident, carefree image no matter what. There were plenty of goths, but no 'emo' culture back then.

The last few generations have been able to experience boundless freedoms. We have no clear roles to fit into, we can literally do anythign we desire. Individuality and freedom of choice is encouraged in young children which has its benifits. However it is human nature for most of us to want to identify with groups. Just look at how humans have always been drawn towards organised religion and politics. As well as that, modern society is so pacified. Most of us don't experience any 'real' problems in our day to day lives. And by 'real' issues I mean hunger, death, threats on our survival. I think this state of anomie in our modern social structure has led to people feeling very lost and aimless with thier lives.

I know in the past I often wondered if I was suffering from clinical depression, but having actually thought about it I really don't think I ever have. I am meloncholic by nature, overly anxious, can have poor self esteem. I am introverted and have a tendancy to bottle up feelings. However I have a great passion for life, I have never had a desire to stop and end it all. When I think of real depression I think of it as a desire to stop and 'give up' on life. That's just my interpretation; I know the term 'depression' but know very little about what it actually is.

Gyalist

The most fashionable diagnosis at the moment, IMHO, is Asperger's Syndrome. I don't doubt that it exists but it seems to have become the latest trendy diagnosis.

krudler

Gyalist wrote: »

The most fashionable diagnosis at the moment, IMHO, is Asperger's Syndrome. I don't doubt that it exists but it seems to have become the latest trendy diagnosis.

I post on another forum with a regular poster who constantly says he has it despite having never having it diagnosed he did an online survey and now apparently thats as a good as going to a doctor:rolleyes: ADD is the other one, apparently these days having a bold as brass child means they've got some unfortunate condition, not that they're just a spoilt little sh1t with imcompetent, over mollycoddling parents.

Wibbs

Truley wrote: »

I can definately see it in my brother's generation (he's just turned eighteen.) I see so many girls his age have blogs and facebooks detailing how depressed they are, self harm, their thoughts of suicide.

Yes that defo seems to be on the increase. Though the question then is, is this a new thing or because there is a conduit to express it we're seeing it more? Now this is my humble, but while there is a little bit of the conduit part, I think there is an element of copycatting going on. People can be very easily influenced, so if there's an idea out there that we're all tortured souls and this is somehow fasionable to be, then people will run with that. This goes double for adolescents who are trying to figure out what works for them and how to fit in. With the web, this interaction is pretty instant too, so its very easy to get into a feeding frenzy internally with the support of others. Things like self harm interest me. As a teenager I knew people with all sorts of problems. Part of the human condition. But I never even heard of self harm and cutting until the last 10 years. Now of course it must have gone on and was just less public, but I truly believe its so much more common today. Maybe its the method is common, but the underlying pain came out in different ways in the past?

The last few generations have been able to experienced boundless freedoms. We have no clear roles to fit into, we can literally do anythign we desire. Individuality and freedom of choice is encouraged in young children which has its benifits. However it is human nature for most of us to want to identify with groups. Just look at how humans have always been drawn towards organised religion and politics. As well as that, modern society is so pacified. Most of us don't experience any 'real' problems in our day to day lives. And by 'real' issues I mean hunger, death, threats on our survival. I think this state of anomie in our modern social structure has led to people feeling very lost and aimless with thier lives.

I'd agree. Heres a mad analogy It seems the rise of allergies may be down to an overly clean environment, so the immune system doesnt get tested and over reacts to an otherwise non threatening stimulus. Maybe the rise in mental illnesses is down to having a less stressed environment, so the mental immune system looking for something to deal with more and more internalises and over reacts to "nothing". This feeds on itself and with more and more labels and support attached gets worse or becomes an actual illness(like allergic reactions are).

Tribal peoples living in the natural world dont suffer from allergies to nearly the same degree as in the west. Neither to they suffer from depression to anything like the degree as in the west. Yet they can have very stressful lives by our standards(food shortages, accidental deaths, inter tribal war, high childhood mortality). Of course they also tend to have social roles where everyone is useful and valued, more support, deeper spiritual lives, less need for aspirational stuff and a better diet so....

Gyalist wrote: »

The most fashionable diagnosis at the moment, IMHO, is Asperger's Syndrome. I don't doubt that it exists but it seems to have become the latest trendy diagnosis.

Oh it exists alright. But yes I still think the net is thrown further than it should. All of us are physically, mentally emotionally "damaged" to some degree. From dodgy knees to mental tics , but that's part of being human and doesnt or shouldnt always need to be labeled or medicalised.

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

I would defo feel it's over diagnosed and over medicated. The pill for every ill. Where the net of disease is spread wider to include people who either aren't depressed or require little intervention for that to resolve itself naturally.

It's definitely over-diagnosed and over medicated. I had a medical health professional suggest I go on anti-depressants this year as I was depressed. I pointed out that my husband was seriously ill, my dog had lost a leg and I was still sad about a miscarriage I suffered the year before which was compounded by the fact that due to my husband's health we were no longer trying to get pregnant.

I was depressed because my life was pretty depressing which is completely different to suffering from depression. I didn't need medication, I needed to ride out the bad stuff. Sometimes life is a bit shít, but that's just a sad fact of life. You need to deal with those times and move on. Christ knows what problems I'd be facing now if I'd taken the tablets and relied on them instead of my own reserves.

liah wrote: »

Dyslexia is another one.. a lot of really lazy people claim dyslexia and take away from those who do actually suffer.

ADHD is another one. It became popular in the 90s, very handy for lazy parents. "Oh it's not my fault little Johnny is running riot, he's ill." Worst of all it only makes it so much harder on people who really have these disorders.

Kooli

iguana wrote: »

It's definitely over-diagnosed and over medicated. I had a medical health professional suggest I go on anti-depressants this year as I was depressed. I pointed out that my husband was seriously ill, my dog had lost a leg and I was still sad about a miscarriage I suffered the year before which was compounded by the fact that due to my husband's health we were no longer trying to get pregnant.

I was depressed because my life was pretty depressing which is completely different to suffering from depression. I didn't need medication, I needed to ride out the bad stuff. Sometimes life is a bit shít, but that's just a sad fact of life. You need to deal with those times and move on. Christ knows what problems I'd be facing now if I'd taken the tablets and relied on them instead of my own reserves.



ADHD is another one. It became popular in the 90s, very handy for lazy parents. "Oh it's not my fault little Johnny is running riot, he's ill." Worst of all it only makes it so much harder on people who really have these disorders.

I agree. I've heard of GPs prescribing antidepressants a fortnight after someone's husband died. Eh, they're SUPPOSED TO BE SAD! You don't have to 'fix it'!!

iguana

Kooli wrote: »

I agree. I've heard of GPs prescribing antidepressants a fortnight after someone's husband died. Eh, they're SUPPOSED TO BE SAD! You don't have to 'fix it'!!

Yup, I know quite few people who've been put on anti-ds shortly after losing a loved one. It's crazy, of course you will still be in a bad place at that point. The shock has worn off, the collective grieving process of the funeral and immediate aftermath is over but you are still miss that person as much as you did the first day you lost them. The months following a death are often harder than the immediate aftermath, ime. That's natural and doesn't require medicating.

I definately agree with JSP. I like her a lot because she says what she thinks and isn't afraid of what people might say about her. This article is typical of her 'no-bull****' attitude.
Like her, I don't deny that there is a disease called depression. But being depressed in the common sense is not a disease. It's natural to be depressed when something bad happens, but running to the doctor and popping pills isn't the way to deal with it. If you don't cope with your problems they will always hound you. I remember I was offered drugs for another disorder and my doctor told me very sincerely "You do know that these won't cure you. They'll only supress the symptoms. You should only take them if you honestly CANNOT cope with your problems. Otherwise it will only impair any progress you might make on your own."
I've had my fair share of bouts with depression - mostly stemming from bullying, relating to the afforementioned problem. I felt like an insect and wanted to die. I felt like it was my responsibility to remove myself from the world and stop being a burden to everyone. But I picked myself up and pushed myself past all that. I still have relapses, but the thing is I have a great life, great friends and a great family who honestly love me, and I'm healthy - I have no reason to be depressed. I'm not going to go running to a psychiatrist and take up valuable time they could be spending with people who really need and want help. Because I've learned to like myself through trials and tribulations I'm self-confident in a way I could hardly have imagined before.
I think people need to stop hiding behind a stigma and fight for their own well being.

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

It's definitely over-diagnosed and over medicated. I had a medical health professional suggest I go on anti-depressants this year as I was depressed. I pointed out that my husband was seriously ill, my dog had lost a leg and I was still sad about a miscarriage I suffered the year before which was compounded by the fact that due to my husband's health we were no longer trying to get pregnant.

I was depressed because my life was pretty depressing which is completely different to suffering from depression. I didn't need medication, I needed to ride out the bad stuff. Sometimes life is a bit shít, but that's just a sad fact of life. You need to deal with those times and move on.

QFT. There can be the big mistake in confusing situational depression and non situational. You've had a helluva year. If you weren't emotionally bruised that would be a cause for concern. IMHO the fact you were, shows you're actually healthy. Its a healthy response to a set of emotional injuries.

Christ knows what problems I'd be facing now if I'd taken the tablets and relied on them instead of my own reserves.

That is a worry. I read a thing in scientific american IIRC where SSRI type medications may have some link with turning a single low level depressive episode, into a more "bipolar" chronic condition, where the person oscillates one way to the other. Wouldnt really surprise me TBH. Screw around with seratonin levels at your peril.

ztoical

It's not all down to the doctors, my mums a GP and has had patients go nuts when she refuses to give them antibotics for ever little illness they have. It's worse with kids, she wouldn't give a kid antibotics unless they really really needed them but parents get really angry about it which I find odd as so many still come in refusing to get their kids jabbed for MMR. Alot of people feel if they are going to take the time and pay the money to see a doctor they should have something to show for it at the end and doctors can feel pushed into writing scripts. Not saying some GP's don't happily write scripts just to get people to go away but it's def not all Doctors pushing pills on people.

iguana wrote: »

Yup, I know quite few people who've been put on anti-ds shortly after losing a loved one. It's crazy, of course you will still be in a bad place at that point. The shock has worn off, the collective grieving process of the funeral and immediate aftermath is over but you are still miss that person as much as you did the first day you lost them. The months following a death are often harder than the immediate aftermath, ime. That's natural and doesn't require medicating.

Grief counseling for people is still too rare here. It was over year after my dad died before it really hit me and I went through a really crap period for about 3 months and was tempted to just get some medication cus I felt I couldn't really talk to anyone as it had been a whole year and thought people would think I should be over it.

krudler

Oh it exists alright. But yes I still think the net is thrown further than it should. All of us are physically, mentally emotionally "damaged" to some degree. From dodgy knees to mental tics , but that's part of being human and doesnt or shouldnt always need to be labeled or medicalised.

This reminds me of the episode of The Sopranos where a doctor tries to diagnose Tony's kid as having ADD as he "fidgets in class" to which Tony replies with "what constitutes a fidget? he's 13 he gets a hard on every 10 minutes!" its like kids cant be kids anymore, something that was harmless 15 years ago is now some medical condition that must be dealt with by ramming behaviour altering pills down your kids neck. Our parents all did stupid stuff as kids and our grandparents werent reaching for the drugs at every turn.

ztoical

Deleted User wrote: »

I definately agree with JSP. I like her a lot because she says what she thinks and isn't afraid of what people might say about her. This article is typical of her 'no-bull****' attitude.
Like her, I don't deny that there is a disease called depression. But being depressed in the common sense is not a disease. It's natural to be depressed when something bad happens, but running to the doctor and popping pills isn't the way to deal with it. If you don't cope with your problems they will always hound you. I remember I was offered drugs for another disorder and my doctor told me very sincerely "You do know that these won't cure you. They'll only supress the symptoms. You should only take them if you honestly CANNOT cope with your problems. Otherwise it will only impair any progress you might make on your own."
I've had my fair share of bouts with depression - mostly stemming from bullying, relating to the afforementioned problem. I felt like an insect and wanted to die. I felt like it was my responsibility to remove myself from the world and stop being a burden to everyone. But I picked myself up and pushed myself past all that. I still have relapses, but the thing is I have a great life, great friends and a great family who honestly love me, and I'm healthy - I have no reason to be depressed. I'm not going to go running to a psychiatrist and take up valuable time they could be spending with people who really need and want help. Because I've learned to like myself through trials and tribulations I'm self-confident in a way I could hardly have imagined before.
I think people need to stop hiding behind a stigma and fight for their own well being.

The issue with this no nonsense attitude is that people who did really need help slip through the cracks. We have a very suicide rate in this country that could be avoid if people looked for help but those most at risk are the ones least likely to ask for help. There is this view that only weak people get depressed that is very damaging. Mothers who suffer from postnatal depression think they must be bad mothers for not bounding with their child straight away and are slow to admit to having any problems.

In an hour I've an appointment to get my eyes checked, I've had no issues with my eyes but I haven't had them tested in ages so figure I should go in. So why not treat mental health with the same attitude? Prevention is better then cure and I feel people should go to speak psychiatrists even if they are showing signs of depression, mental health should be treated the same physical health IMO and if it was something that people had checked regular like getting smear done it would lose this so called fashionable image.

speedboatchase

I kinda agree with the point of the article, although it's not expressed well. I think it was Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock who said America had it so good they were inventing new problems, "how many african children you think out there are latose-intolerant?!". I wonder how many kids in Somalia are suffering from depression? Ah well, narcissism and revelling in your own victimhood are two rapidly accelerating phenomenons

Truley

liah wrote: »

Dyslexia is another one.. a lot of really lazy people claim dyslexia and take away from those who do actually suffer.

My crap spelling is down to my artistic temperament actually :cool:

Anna Molly

When I first read the article last night, I was somewhat infuriated. Not because she just glossed over the medical and psychological facts of depression, and the general insult fired at people who are clinically depressed, but also, her complete and utter lack of knowledge on the topic.
I know its the Daily Mail, but what was that publisher thinking?!

I, in essence agree with her debate about upper middle income people and their depression. Some people have gone from living it up in better economic times and are finding the adaptation to the current and crap economic situation, this is completely understandable. What does one do when they have more money than sense, spend it all and now can no longer live in the way they were accustomed to?

I study Psychology and I'm a firm believer in the works of Viktor Frankl,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl )<-i don't want to bore you with lots of information you don't want) In brief, he lost everything to the Nazi regime. He formulated Logotherapy, which postulated that once man has a meaning in life, he is happy.

I believe that this generation, through this massive change that has occurred have completely lost sight of who they are, what is real, and what is important, etc. Leading to an, 'Existential Crisis' filling their lives with pointless ****, spending their money on things like the, 'Sam Cam Handbag' instead of doing things that really make them happy.

So what she said, holds some truths, these people aren't necessarily depressed, they just need to find the meaning in their lives. Unfortunately the twat just didn't do any bloody research into her chosen topic and now looks like a complete fool, whose writings hold no merit.

Her article though, was highly offensive! I'm not going to go into the whole depression discussion, people have already raised it.

Wibbs

ztoical wrote: »

In an hour I've an appointment to get my eyes checked, I've had no issues with my eyes but I haven't had them tested in ages so figure I should go in. So why not treat mental health with the same attitude? Prevention is better then cure and I feel people should go to speak psychiatrists even if they are showing signs of depression, mental health should be treated the same physical health IMO and if it was something that people had checked regular like getting smear done it would lose this so called fashionable image.

Yes and no. I can defo see the logic in what you're saying, but my concern would be that with regular mental health checkups you'll run the risk of more over medicalisation not less. If they're looking for problems they'll find them. Psychiatry and psychology are very demanding disciplines and IME and IMHO they can be very variable in quality and methodology of treatment. I've seen this with people Ive known who've attended them. In a couple of cases the frankly stupid and dangerous responses were shocking.

I'm reminded of one guy I knew. Girlfriend left him. Broken hearted as can happen. His GP reckoned he should see a Psychiatrist. Even though to the dogs in the street he wasn't that bad and was coming out of it(had actually started dating again). Cue medication route after an all too short consult. Cue, trouble sleeping, restlessness and worst of all suicide ideation which he never had before. He made this clear in subsequent visits but his dose was increased, not changed or decreased and was told it would kick in soon(this was 2 months in). Family and friends got more and more concerned and tried to look for second opinions. Sadly he took his own life before that happened. Rare and tragic case? Yes but I can think of similar if less drastic in their outcome cases from just personal experience. I also know of people whose lives were saved and made better too, but the human mind and brain chemistry is pretty poorly understood contrary to popular and I would be very averse to the idea of regular mental health checkups.

ztoical

speedboatchase wrote: »

"how many african children you think out there are latose-intolerant?!"

All of them...or at least the majority are. The vast majority of worlds population is lactose intolerant. It's only a small minority of western europeans who are lactose tolerant as they started farming dairy before anyone else and even still if are tolerant but you stop eating diary for a long period you will become intolerant.

You can't go on numbers of 1st world vs 3rd world on these kinds of things as they simply aren't reported in the same way. If you following some of this logic there aren't any Gay people in most 3rd world countries and women don't have orgasims there either. Yes alot of mental issues like ADHD and ADD could be brought down to diet in the 1st world rather then it being a mental health issue but you also have soldiers from certain countries suffering PTSD while others don't....does that mean those soldiers are weaker or then the others or maybe they are just treated differently? Women in 3rd world countries do suffer from postnatal depression but numbers are low or uncounted as they have much higher infant mortality rates.

Wibbs

ztoical wrote: »

All of them...or at least the majority are. The vast majority of worlds population is lactose intolerant. It's only a small minority of western europeans who are lactose tolerant as they started farming dairy before anyone else and even still if are tolerant but you stop eating diary for a long period you will become intolerant.

+1 and they're usually gluten intolerant too.

You can't go on numbers of 1st world vs 3rd world on these kinds of things as they simply aren't reported in the same way. If you following some of this logic there aren't any Gay people in most 3rd world countries and women don't have orgasims there either.

Depends on what population you're looking at. Some american indian tribes considered gay men and women to be a bonus. They thought of them as spiritual midway points between the genders. A few studies seem to show a significant lack of depression in hunter gatherer populations when compared to our own.

Yes alot of mental issues like ADHD and ADD could be brought down to diet in the 1st world rather then it being a mental health issue

Or diet and/or lack of parental control, being labeled and running with that label.

but you also have soldiers from certain countries suffering PTSD while others don't....does that mean those soldiers are weaker or then the others or maybe they are just treated differently?

PTSD is an interesting one. Read another study which seemed to find that after a stressful event, the people who recovered better, where those who were offered one or two counseling sessions, preferably a group session with other survivors. The ones who fared worse were those who went into long term therapy. Stands to reason and common sense. The latter group have a higher risk of the focus on the event becoming ingrained or even obsessive. The former get to share while the wound is fresh and get advice on healing it, the latter keep picking at it. Plus Ive known people to get addicted to therapy, like they would a painkiller. They need that session long after the initial hurt is resolved, so they look to reopen the wound or find new ones. As for soldiers. I have rellies that were involved in WW2 and they saw terrible unimaginable things(inc one who was part of a death camp liberation). They came back from that, had families and lived their lives. On the rare occasions they discussed how, they all said they felt duty bound to live their lives as so many of their brothers in arms didnt. Yes some had nightmares for a couple of years afterwards, but they expected that they would have nightmares, but again thought of the men who would never have nightmares. They externalised it, they didnt internalise it in a self centered way.

I dont mean selfish BTW, I mean that too much self absorption, though good in small doses, is like anything else, bad in large doses. IME I have found the chronically unhappy(not clinically depressed/bipolar) tend to very self absorbed. Hypochondriacs of the mind. IMHO too much therapy makes this worse not better. Instead of woe is me, it would serve many better to think there but for the grace of god go I

*interesting study into mental health of holocaust survivors. Though they had the same levels as non survivors, they were more likely to be labeled/treated for PTSD http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/71008517/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 A case of medical practitioner assumption?

Wibbs

Anna Molly wrote: »

I study Psychology and I'm a firm believer in the works of Viktor Frankl,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl )<-i don't want to bore you with lots of information you don't want) In brief, he lost everything to the Nazi regime. He formulated Logotherapy, which postulated that once man has a meaning in life, he is happy.

+1000.

Novella

I completely agree, although I wouldn't say it's a new phenomenon. The sheer amount of young, middle and upper class women with blissfully perfect upbringings who are now deciding to pop off to their GP in the hopes of securing a prescription for Prozac etc. makes me absolutely sick.

Okay, sure, some of these people do have genuine problems but many of them? Many of them are pathetic pill poppers who think it's cute to be vulnerable, and wouldn't actually know what depression was if it came and danced on their heads.

The fact that anti-depressants are so readily available these days adds to the problem, imo. You don't need to see a psychiatrist, all you have to do is tell any doctor anywhere that you have 'low mood' and he'll throw at you an endless array of little white tablets.

I have absolutely no clue how, or why being depressed is now the 'in' thing to be, but afaik, it really is. Personally, I think it's disgusting. It belittles people who are truly suffering from what I would describe as a debilitating illness, and it only raises further the stigma that is already attached to mental health in this country.

ztoical

Wibbs wrote: »

A few studies seem to show a significant lack of depression in hunter gatherer populations when compared to our own. Or diet and/or lack of parental control, being labeled and running with that label.

There is a difference in comparing hunter gatherer populations to our own populations but bringing it back the topic of JSP's piece she seemed to be focusing on middle to upper class first world people vs lower class/immigrants/3rd world people which is a different kettle of fish. It is interesting to look at hunter gather populations but like with the whole depression thing I think someone with some training and who puts alot of time into studying is far better to speak on the subject then JSP. Study of native tribes can be a bit of mind field as you get alot of people heading off into the jungle with notions in their head and very little common sense cop on. Jean Liedloff in her book Continuum concept talks about studying amazon based tribes to improve 1st world mental health focused mainly on child rearing but she spent very little time with the actual tribe and alot of her ideas in the book seem more like things she went looking for rather then found.

The whole area of mental health can be a mindfield and I agree with some of your comments on self absorption and over medication...like everything else in life it's a case of moderation I just really dislike the way JSP has addressed it. I can see what she's getting at but I think her way of getting at it is more harming the helpful.

Lia_lia

I really don't know what the make of the whole thing. Many of my family member have been diagnosed with a random array of mental illnesses throughout the years (myself included) and then the diagnosis change/different medication is prescribed that just makes you worse, ah I dunno. Will reply when I'm less tired.

Novella

Novella wrote: »

I completely agree, although I wouldn't say it's a new phenomenon. The sheer amount of young, middle and upper class women with blissfully perfect upbringings who are now deciding to pop off to their GP in the hopes of securing a prescription for Prozac etc. makes me absolutely sick.

What does someone's upbringing have to do with anything? And how on earth could you tell that from the outside? I know some seriously messed up individuals from wealthy backgrounds with two parents and some incredibly happy and well adjusted ones who you might say had dodgy upbringings. Why would someone want Prozac if their life was fine?

I have absolutely no clue how, or why being depressed is now the 'in' thing to be, but afaik, it really is. Personally, I think it's disgusting. It belittles people who are truly suffering from what I would describe as a debilitating illness, and it only raises further the stigma that is already attached to mental health in this country.

I guess it depends on the social circle but I don't think it's 'in' at all. It took me years to be able to go to counselling for fear of being seen as a whiny spoiled brat, and only a few people know about it. Most of my friends seem to see depression as a weakness that people should just get over, so I wouldn't be comfortable talking about it. I don't know anyone who is openly on antidepressants.

You can see the attitudes of some people on this thread re therapy, that it's a waste of time, makes people self absorbed, why not just get over it and think 'ahh things could be worse'. In this day and age, people still have a serious misunderstanding of what depression is and how to treat it. People pulling out the old 'are starving kids in Africa suffering from depression?' line. People wouldn't dream of saying such ridiculous rubbish about cancer or diabetes but for some reason mental issues are fair game. Rich Westerners aren't allowed to be unhappy. I don't know how many years it will take to get it into some peoples' heads that it's an illness. It's not like taking anti depressants is an easy way to happiness for people too lazy to smile. They enable people to think clearly and feel how everyone else feels. Several of my family members have been on them and at the beginning they said 'so this is what life is supposed to feel like?' as prior to that they'd felt like they were living under a dark cloud. No amount of saying 'cheer up' or 'do some exercise' is going to help a seriously depressed person. So many posters here seem to be confusing sadness after a death or blues after a failed exam with clinical depression. Perhaps if some people actually experienced not being able to get out of bed for days on end, feeling like going to the local Spar is like climbing Mt Everest and not being able to feel any type of emotion, they might have a bit more empathy for people suffering from depression.

Novella

[quote=[Deleted User];65934291]What does someone's upbringing have to do with anything? And how on earth could you tell that from the outside? I know some seriously messed up individuals from wealthy backgrounds with two parents and some incredibly happy and well adjusted ones who you might say had dodgy upbringings. Why would someone want Prozac if their life was fine?[/QUOTE]

Er, in a lot of cases the upbringing of a person does have implications on their future mental health. I thought that was pretty obvious, no?

I was actually speaking from my own experience in relation to the topic of the thread? Obviously there are people from every background who suffer from depression, I just didn't think it was necessary for me to state that.

What I was referring to are the large amount of young women who are on anti-depressants nowadays for no particular reason, and these usually are people whose life are perfectly fine.

Why would someone wanna be on Prozac? Because it's seen as trendy, which is what this whole discussion is about.

I guess it depends on the social circle but I don't think it's 'in' at all. It took me years to be able to go to counselling for fear of being seen as a whiny spoiled brat, and only a few people know about it. Most of my friends seem to see depression as a weakness that people should just get over, so I wouldn't be comfortable talking about it. I don't know anyone who is openly on antidepressants.

You can see the attitudes of some people on this thread re therapy, that it's a waste of time, makes people self absorbed, why not just get over it and think 'ahh things could be worse'. In this day and age, people still have a serious misunderstanding of what depression is and how to treat it. People pulling out the old 'are starving kids in Africa suffering from depression?' line. People wouldn't dream of saying such ridiculous rubbish about cancer or diabetes but for some reason mental issues are fair game. Rich Westerners aren't allowed to be unhappy. I don't know how many years it will take to get it into some peoples' heads that it's an illness. It's not like taking anti depressants is an easy way to happiness for people too lazy to smile. They enable people to think clearly and feel how everyone else feels. Several of my family members have been on them and at the beginning they said 'so this is what life is supposed to feel like?' as prior to that they'd felt like they were living under a dark cloud. No amount of saying 'cheer up' or 'do some exercise' is going to help a seriously depressed person. So many posters here seem to be confusing sadness after a death or blues after a failed exam with clinical depression. Perhaps if some people actually experienced not being able to get out of bed for days on end, feeling like going to the local Spar is like climbing Mt Everest and not being able to feel any type of emotion, they might have a bit more empathy for people suffering from depression.

I have every empathy for people suffering from depression, as a matter of fact. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and I do take it very seriously as an illness. I was simply expressing my opinion in relation to the opening article. How I feel about depression is a completely different story. I am very sympathetic towards anyone who is depressed.

Amongst younger women, especially my own age group, I know so many people who claim to be 'depressed' now. I simply feel that people have very little understanding of it as an illness and think that they're depressed if they have, I dunno, two bad days in a row.

That's just my opinion, from what I've seen. I'm sorry if you took it as me saying that people from wealthy backgrounds etc. can't be depressed because that wasn't what I meant at all.

Novella

Novella wrote: »

Er, in a lot of cases the upbringing of a person does have implications on their future mental health. I thought that was pretty obvious, no?

Yes, it is obvious. But how do you know what other peoples' upbringings were like? Because even my best friends and family have no idea about mine, except what they saw on the surface. I'm not sure how you can look at someone and decide whether or not their background was sufficiently harsh enough to allow them to be depressed.

I was actually speaking from my own experience in relation to the topic of the thread? Obviously there are people from every background who suffer from depression, I just didn't think it was necessary for me to state that.

What I was referring to are the large amount of young women who are on anti-depressants nowadays for no particular reason, and these usually are people whose life are perfectly fine.

Says who? I just don't buy it that someone would want to be on antidepressants for no reason. They have some pretty horrid side effects which is why I've always resisted them. I can't imagine someone thinking 'ooh I'll go in Prozac because all the cool kids do it.'

Amongst younger women, especially my own age group, I know so many people who claim to be 'depressed' now. I simply feel that people have very little understanding of it as an illness and think that they're depressed if they have, I dunno, two bad days in a row.

That's just my opinion, from what I've seen. I'm sorry if you took it as me saying that people from wealthy backgrounds etc. can't be depressed because that wasn't what I meant at all.

Well, there's being in a depressed mood and then there's having long term depression. It doesn't bother me if someone says 'ahh I'm so depressed' about an exam or whatever. It's a turn of phrase, and it's a temporary state. There's no problem with calling a news article or TV show 'depressing' and that's the same thing, it makes someone temporarily depressed.

Now, I do agree that I've met a few (not many) young women who claimed to be depressed and I just couldn't see it at all, but I don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I've met many a happy and bubbly seeming girl who's secretly suffering from bulimia or anorexia, from the outside you'd say they have a perfect life but they obviously don't.

Gyalist

Gyalist wrote: »

The most fashionable diagnosis at the moment, IMHO, is Asperger's Syndrome. I don't doubt that it exists but it seems to have become the latest trendy diagnosis.

Aargh! People self-diagnosing AS drives me MAD. The majority of them are just too lazy to try and make an effort socially. They don't know what it's like to have to deal with ticks, geniune social underdevelopment or real compulsions! They just claim to have AS for the fun of seeming obscure when they really have no clue how paralyzing it can be. Not that I'd get rid of it for anything in the world, but it can be a real pain trying to survive in a world dominated by neurotypicals...

Dudess

I'd imagine there's an increase in diagnoses simply because people are seeking help/treatment, rather than not doing so in times past. I'm sure there's the odd person who says "Oh I'm suffering from depression" when all it is is they're in a bad mood, but I'm willing to bet the latter is extremely rare. Seems more like Janet Street Porter being attention-seeking. Too late - another troll journo Julie Burchill already did it love...

Wibbs

[quote=[Deleted User];65934291]What does someone's upbringing have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]One of the major co factors in later emotional upheavals I would have thought?

Why would someone want Prozac if their life was fine?

A couple of reasons. Primarily if its the only option they're offered. And this goes on a lot. Like Novella I too know quite a few people who have been given a script for SSRI or MAOIs. Chopping and changing when one or the other doesnt work. Even going from the MAOI's to SSRI's without a break which can cause serious life threatening side effects. I know two such people with this example and both were told to continue even when the info leaflet had DO NOT GO FROM ONE TO THE OTHER in big bloody bold type. Mostly but not always by GPs BTW, not psychiatrists trained in such things.

I've also known too many people who in the course of a GP exam, have mentioned they're stressed and agitated at the moment and have been handed a script for these medications. The equivalent of going to a GP nd telling him or her you think you might have an infection and be given antibiotics. Now these are people who are holding down jobs, relationships, in short lives at the time. Not people who are struggling with the horrendous symptoms and effects of clinical depression.

Tell ya what if you like I'll go to a GP in the next week and tell him or her I'm feeling down and life is getting to me etc and I'll bet you a 50 euro note I'll get a script for some sort of psychiatric drug, rather than a referral. A year ago my own mother went to a GP with severe arthitic pain and came back with anti inflammatories, pain killers and a low dose of SSRI's I was with her in the examination room and was flabbergasted TBH. And not a little angry TBH.

You can see the attitudes of some people on this thread re therapy, that it's a waste of time, makes people self absorbed, why not just get over it and think 'ahh things could be worse'.

No IMHO I think therapy can be very useful. If you find someone you're comfortable with and in concert with various drug therapies under a psychiatrists care. Depending on the severity of the individuals condition.

In this day and age, people still have a serious misunderstanding of what depression is and how to treat it. People pulling out the old 'are starving kids in Africa suffering from depression?' line. People wouldn't dream of saying such ridiculous rubbish about cancer or diabetes but for some reason mental issues are fair game. Rich Westerners aren't allowed to be unhappy. I don't know how many years it will take to get it into some peoples' heads that it's an illness.

I agree 100%, if you suffer from clinical depression. My argument is that too many people are being brought under that umbrella when its not the case.

No amount of saying 'cheer up' or 'do some exercise' is going to help a seriously depressed person.

I agree. Though exercise, a better diet and a social outlet when the harsh effects of the illness has passed should be pushed more IMHO.

So many posters here seem to be confusing sadness after a death or blues after a failed exam with clinical depression.

I'm not. I'm concerned the health services providers may be.

I'm also concerned that the very defintions are outa whack. IE the DNA its in your genes hypotheses. Forget tribal types. Unskilled workers are 5 times more likely to present with depression than skilled workers. Does this mean its their genes? That the genes of such people are already screwed outa the box? Or is it much more likely that their environment is a major cause? Various twin studies have suggested it is in the DNA but again it is very dependent on how one reads the results http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/03/joseph.html If you're looking for a particular belief you'll find it.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

One of the major co factors in later emotional upheavals I would have thought?

Yes I realise that, I was more referring to how upbringing is perceived by other people. I'm not sure how people can make comments on other peoples' upbringings without having grown up with the person, and still there's a lot of stuff they might not know.

A couple of reasons. Primarily if its the only option they're offered. And this goes on a lot. Like Novella I too know quite a few people who have been given a script for SSRI or MAOIs. Chopping and changing when one or the other doesnt work. Even going from the MAOI's to SSRI's without a break which can cause serious life threatening side effects. I know two such people with this example and both were told to continue even when the info leaflet had DO NOT GO FROM ONE TO THE OTHER in big bloody bold type. Mostly but not always by GPs BTW, not psychiatrists trained in such things.

I've also known too many people who in the course of a GP exam, have mentioned they're stressed and agitated at the moment and have been handed a script for these medications. The equivalent of going to a GP nd telling him or her you think you might have an infection and be given antibiotics. Now these are people who are holding down jobs, relationships, in short lives at the time. Not people who are struggling with the horrendous symptoms and effects of clinical depression.

Well, anti d's can still be useful in treating moderate depression and/or anxiety. And holding down jobs etc doesn't mean much. I've been very depressed and still been able to 'act normal'. Most people wouldn't have a notion that I had any issues with depression or anxiety (and the latter is much more of a problem for me) beyond noticing that I'm often a bit negative. I'm not saying you're wrong that GP's overtreat but I haven't experienced it and don't know anyone who has. I feel that the people I know who went on anti-depressants definitely needed them and have definitely been helped by them.

No IMHO I think therapy can be very useful. If you find someone you're comfortable with and in concert with various drug therapies under a psychiatrists care. Depending on the severity of the individuals condition. I agree 100%, if you suffer from clinical depression. My argument is that too many people are being brought under that umbrella when its not the case.

You don't need to suffer from clinical depression to benefit from therapy. I don't see what the problem with it is. I don't know why it has this badge of being for self absorbed, whiny people or for making people drag out their issues. I think it's far worse to keep it inside. I spent time in Korea last year, where depression related stuff is taboo and a visit to a therapist would raise alarm so apparently people don't tend to go. Same with seeking medication for depression. So many people were throwing themselves under trains that they had to spend millions installing a glass door system in the subways so that nobody could access the tracks. Surely if they'd felt that counselling or drugs were more of an option, they might not have got to that point.

I'm also concerned that the very defintions are outa whack. IE the DNA its in your genes hypotheses. Forget tribal types. Unskilled workers are 5 times more likely to present with depression than skilled workers. Does this mean its their genes? That the genes of such people are already screwed outa the box? Or is it much more likely that their environment is a major cause? Various twin studies have suggested it is in the DNA but again it is very dependent on how one reads the results http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/03/joseph.html If you're looking for a particular belief you'll find it.

You could go round and round all day with that. You could say that perhaps unskilled workers are unskilled because their depression affected their studies, their motivation etc earlier on in life....it's the chicken and the egg scenario. My relatives who suffer from depression had major problems at school and so went on to work in low paid jobs whereas their siblings were successful, so that points towards 'in the genes' but who will ever know. Personally I don't see why it can't be either environment or genes or a combination of the two.

Wibbs

[quote=[Deleted User];65936553]Yes I realise that, I was more referring to how upbringing is perceived by other people. I'm not sure how people can make comments on other peoples' upbringings without having grown up with the person, and still there's a lot of stuff they might not know.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree. Even with siblings different environmental pressures can be at work.

Well, anti d's can still be useful in treating moderate depression and/or anxiety.

Apparently no different than placebo;
http://weeksmd.com/?p=3190
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/303/1/47?home

Of course placebos dont come with the side effects of such drugs. Some of whom are very serious, including increased suicide ideation. Indeed I would be interested to see the stats for suicide of individuals under medical care since the introduction of SSRI's to see if there's any obvious blip. Correlation doesnt imply causation, but it might be an interesting one to look at.

Now in severe depression these therapies do have a positive effect and no mistake. Again with my antibiotic comparison. Life savers for a rampant lung infection, but useless for a head cold. I'm simply suggesting that people are presenting with head colds, being informed that they have double pneumonia and being treated accordingly. Plus they walked in with a chesty sniffle and came out with double pneumonia in their minds.

And holding down jobs etc doesn't mean much. I've been very depressed and still been able to 'act normal'. Most people wouldn't have a notion that I had any issues with depression or anxiety (and the latter is much more of a problem for me) beyond noticing that I'm often a bit negative. I'm not saying you're wrong that GP's overtreat but I haven't experienced it and don't know anyone who has. I feel that the people I know who went on anti-depressants definitely needed them and have definitely been helped by them.

Mark me I am defo not saying you didnt have an underlying mental condition that laid you so low. I also have tremendous sympathy and indeed admiration for such as you that have overcome same. I'm simply saying that maybe you and others like you could have been helped by other methods. The placebo effect can be very strong and effective. This does not mean its "all in your head" either by the way. From what Ive read on placebos, they can have a strong physical effect. The classic one is the experiment with emetics(a drug that basically makes you hurl chunks). People were told by a respected doctor that this would settle their stomach and a large precentage had just that effect. When they should have been doing the technicolour yawn within minutes. We have far more power over our internal processes than we give ourselves credit for. We're also stronger than we give ourselves credit for too. Though just to be clear... I am not saying as the corollary of that that we're responsible for many health problems that beset us That's waaaaay too close to "the Secret" and all that BS. **** just happens.

You don't need to suffer from clinical depression to benefit from therapy.

I dunno. I would be in two minds there. There's a potential minefield with that notion IMHO. If such therapy is seen as I dunno, a workout for the "soul", just like the gym is a workout for the body, then I say game ball. The problem comes when it's medicalised or psychologically labeled. An extension of that analogy*. People go to the gym to keep fit. They go to a physio if they're damaged in some way. Again my issue is that gym goers are going straight to the physio instead of the spin class or personal trainer.

I don't see what the problem with it is. I don't know why it has this badge of being for self absorbed, whiny people or for making people drag out their issues.

I think because often it can be. Even if that is also often a wrong stereotype. Personally, I have found people who were regularly going to therapy were self absorbed and became worse not better. I would have a soft spot for CBT therapy, where modes of thinking are rerouted and retrained to a better course. Now apply that notion to other forms of therapy. The ones where its based on letting it all out. The focus becomes more internal than it may have been before. Like the example of the WW2 vets I know in the family. They kinda did the CBT thing when in their worst times, redirected the pain into the "I must live well, cos my brothers didnt get to". In some ways they had it easier than many people today. Which may sound daft I'll agree. They had it easier in that while they experienced such horror, they also had an incredible bond, shared experience, support system and indeed love with those that were with them in these experiences. I have been present when such men met their fellows with 50 years distance and that connection and love was almost physically palpable. Funny thing was I mentioned this and didnt get the "ooh get her the sissy" response**. They agreed.

I think it's far worse to keep it inside. I spent time in Korea last year, where depression related stuff is taboo and a visit to a therapist would raise alarm so apparently people don't tend to go. Same with seeking medication for depression. So many people were throwing themselves under trains that they had to spend millions installing a glass door system in the subways so that nobody could access the tracks. Surely if they'd felt that counselling or drugs were more of an option, they might not have got to that point.

Oh I agree. There is a happy medium and thats all I'm suggesting. On the one hand you have your experience in Korea and on the other hand you have the US model of a pill for every ill. Balance is everything.

You could go round and round all day with that. You could say that perhaps unskilled workers are unskilled because their depression affected their studies, their motivation etc earlier on in life....it's the chicken and the egg scenario.

True.

Personally I don't see why it can't be either environment or genes or a combination of the two.

Again agreed 100%. I suspect its both, but environment is the bigger issue IMHO. Im more a nurture than nature man, or at least nurture can influence nature and more than the other way around.



* there are shrinks of all hues reading this thinking WTF? he's using way too many arsed up analogies. Right spark up the straitjacket and 10 kilos of thorazine STAT! Jungians and Freudians are agreeing so I'm at least proving useful

** funny enough although old fashioned men, they were not homophobic as many of them served with gay men and considered them equal brothers. Theres a great story of a gay guy in the british infantry, as they move saving private ryan style in a landing craft towards the beaches of normandy to their almost certain death. The men were all petrified. In the back he had a compact out and was busily applying makeup. When asked why, he replied "I want to look pretty for the nazis" Which diffused the situation. He was one of the best and bravest soldiers in that company. A fact noted by his fellow men, officers and ranks. Mentioned in dispatches but never given a medal or promotion. Mad.

Novella

[quote=[Deleted User];65936553]Yes I realise that, I was more referring to how upbringing is perceived by other people. I'm not sure how people can make comments on other peoples' upbringings without having grown up with the person, and still there's a lot of stuff they might not know.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, I wasn't saying you can't be depressed unless you've had a bad upbringing. I just happened to throw it into my post because often times it is an influencing factor on peoples mental well-being. I shouldn't have used it as an example seen as it isn't the case with everyone. I just happened to mention it because a lot of upset in peoples lives which leads to depression etc., is in fact caused by traumatic instances in their earlier lives which is related to upbringing, such as the break of a parents marriage and so on.

Of course, I don't know just by looking what kind of life anyone has had beneath the surface, so if you found my comment offensive or harsh, I am sorry.

Well, anti d's can still be useful in treating moderate depression and/or anxiety. And holding down jobs etc doesn't mean much. I've been very depressed and still been able to 'act normal'. Most people wouldn't have a notion that I had any issues with depression or anxiety (and the latter is much more of a problem for me) beyond noticing that I'm often a bit negative. I'm not saying you're wrong that GP's overtreat but I haven't experienced it and don't know anyone who has. I feel that the people I know who went on anti-depressants definitely needed them and have definitely been helped by them.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're pretty much accusing me of lumping everyone into the same category, whereas you are just as guilty of doing so. Just because you don't know of anyone who has experienced a GP willing to prescribe anti-d's, sleeping pills and all the rest without so much as a blink of an eye does not mean it doesn't happen. It does.
The very first time I was prescribed an anti-depressant, it was completely uncalled for. I was thirteen and dealing with grief after the death of my grandmother. I was not depressed, I was in a natural process of dealing with a loss in my life. Was the doctor bothered to actually find out what was going on? Nope. He just listened to the 'not sleeping very well, withdrawn, crying' and decided the best thing to do was medicate me. This is the case with GP's all over the country and imo, it's utterly disgraceful.

Also, what is "very depressed" for you may not necessarily be very depressed for others so while you may have been able to hold down a job while considering yourself so, another person might have felt your 'very depressed' and thought of it as a good day. It's hard to know what "very depressed" is really. I'm not belittling how you felt, but a person who was/is unable to hold down a job due to depression may be feeling a hell of a lot worse than you ever did and simply couldn't 'act normal'. Equally so, a person could feel a hell of lot better than you and simply not be able to function. It all depends on how a person deals with negative emotion, some people are mentally stronger and more capable.

You don't need to suffer from clinical depression to benefit from therapy. I don't see what the problem with it is. I don't know why it has this badge of being for self absorbed, whiny people or for making people drag out their issues. I think it's far worse to keep it inside. I spent time in Korea last year, where depression related stuff is taboo and a visit to a therapist would raise alarm so apparently people don't tend to go. Same with seeking medication for depression. So many people were throwing themselves under trains that they had to spend millions installing a glass door system in the subways so that nobody could access the tracks. Surely if they'd felt that counselling or drugs were more of an option, they might not have got to that point.

I think therapy can be beneficial, yeah, definitely. However, as Wibbs (I think!) said, many people can become completely wrapped up in themselves and start to over-analyse every little thing. Overall, I am pro-therapy though and with you on the better not to keep everything in thing.

Oh, and many people who do kill themselves have a history of depression, self harm etc., and have been treated previously but still go on to do so, so it is kind of hard to say that a few pills and a bit of a chat would have changed their minds.

Novella

Wibbs wrote: »

Mark me I am defo not saying you didnt have an underlying mental condition that laid you so low. I also have tremendous sympathy and indeed admiration for such as you that have overcome same. I'm simply saying that maybe you and others like you could have been helped by other methods. The placebo effect can be very strong and effective. This does not mean its "all in your head" either by the way. From what Ive read on placebos, they can have a strong physical effect. The classic one is the experiment with emetics(a drug that basically makes you hurl chunks). People were told by a respected doctor that this would settle their stomach and a large precentage had just that effect. When they should have been doing the technicolour yawn within minutes. We have far more power over our internal processes than we give ourselves credit for. We're also stronger than we give ourselves credit for too. Though just to be clear... I am not saying as the corollary of that that we're responsible for many health problems that beset us That's waaaaay too close to "the Secret" and all that BS. **** just happens.

Oh, and + a million zillion. The placebo effect is huuuuuuge. I'm not doubting that anti-d's do work, and do help to raise low mood but afaic, a lot of it is in peoples heads - Now I'm taking this little pill to feel better, so I shoud feel better, and they do feel better type thing.

Novella

Novella wrote: »

Okay, I wasn't saying you can't be depressed unless you've had a bad upbringing. I just happened to throw it into my post because often times it is an influencing factor on peoples mental well-being. I shouldn't have used it as an example seen as it isn't the case with everyone. I just happened to mention it because a lot of upset in peoples lives which leads to depression etc., is in fact caused by traumatic instances in their earlier lives which is related to upbringing, such as the break of a parents marriage and so on.

Of course, I don't know just by looking what kind of life anyone has had beneath the surface, so if you found my comment offensive or harsh, I am sorry.

I think it is harsh to refer to peoples' upbringings as being perfect when you have no idea. After all, nobody's upbringing is perfect. What criteria are you judging that on?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're pretty much accusing me of lumping everyone into the same category, whereas you are just as guilty of doing so. Just because you don't know of anyone who has experienced a GP willing to prescribe anti-d's, sleeping pills and all the rest without so much as a blink of an eye does not mean it doesn't happen. It does.
The very first time I was prescribed an anti-depressant, it was completely uncalled for. I was thirteen and dealing with grief after the death of my grandmother. I was not depressed, I was in a natural process of dealing with a loss in my life. Was the doctor bothered to actually find out what was going on? Nope. He just listened to the 'not sleeping very well, withdrawn, crying' and decided the best thing to do was medicate me. This is the case with GP's all over the country and imo, it's utterly disgraceful.

That's not the point you were making though. That's GP's giving out pills like sweets because they're lazy instead of doing their jobs. You don't walk in and ask for Prozac because all your friends were doing it.

Also, what is "very depressed" for you may not necessarily be very depressed for others so while you may have been able to hold down a job while considering yourself so, another person might have felt your 'very depressed' and thought of it as a good day. It's hard to know what "very depressed" is really. I'm not belittling how you felt, but a person who was/is unable to hold down a job due to depression may be feeling a hell of a lot worse than you ever did and simply couldn't 'act normal'. Equally so, a person could feel a hell of lot better than you and simply not be able to function. It all depends on how a person deals with negative emotion, some people are mentally stronger and more capable.

Sure. The same way some people can handle huge amounts of physical pain and others would cry if they stubbed their toe. I'm simply saying I was depressed to the point where I'd end up sobbing like a wounded animal on the floor of my apartment and thinking my OH would just be happier with me gone, and I went into uni and work every single day without one person asking me if everything was OK. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are worse off, but at that point, I benefitted from therapy, even though I wasn't 'clinically depressed'.

I think therapy can be beneficial, yeah, definitely. However, as Wibbs (I think!) said, many people can become completely wrapped up in themselves and start to over-analyse every little thing. Overall, I am pro-therapy though and with you on the better not to keep everything in thing.

I think that's more a thing of bad therapists. Good ones encourage people NOT to do that.

Oh, and many people who do kill themselves have a history of depression, self harm etc., and have been treated previously but still go on to do so, so it is kind of hard to say that a few pills and a bit of a chat would have changed their minds.

Well the suicide rates there are way higher than here, and the therapy rates are much lower. It could be a coincidence and perhaps these people would have done it anyway, but perhaps the correct medication and long term counselling (not a few pills and a bit of a chat as you say) would have helped a lot.

krankykitty

Although there are some valid points the article as a whole annoys me. She criticises some woman who was depressed due to her sister's death and the departure of her husband, yet it was OK with her for someone else to have a breakdown due to something else.

What gives JSP the right to judge the validity of someone else's experience? She doesn't know the full private story of what's going on for them. It must be hard enough being either actually clinically depressed or feeling very low due to unfortunate life circumstances without having to be judged by that troll.

I'm unsurprised this article was published in the Daily Fail.

Wibbs

[quote=[Deleted User];65943023]I think it is harsh to refer to peoples' upbringings as being perfect when you have no idea. After all, nobody's upbringing is perfect. What criteria are you judging that on?[/QUOTE]One criteria could be the mental health of the adults that result from the upbringing. Even so that's too variable and too complex. You can have outliers in any family. You could have 4 siblings raised in the same(or similar) environment, where one becomes mentally ill, or 4 siblings where 3 are mentally ill and one isnt. So I agree its very complex and hard to make a call. I think people naturally look at people who appear to have the "perfect" upbringing and yet turn out unhappy and wonder why. Of course it is too dependent on what ones definition of "perfect" is.

That's not the point you were making though. That's GP's giving out pills like sweets because they're lazy instead of doing their jobs. You don't walk in and ask for Prozac because all your friends were doing it.

Of course not, but one may feed the other. If you have people in a group that are on these medications and share that with the group, it's more likely other members of that group will see that as an option. It becomes more normalised and expected. I am all for normalising mental illness and taking away the BS of social shame that follows it like a bad smell. I'm just concerned that we replace one stupid idea with another less stupid, but still damaging one.

I think that's more a thing of bad therapists. Good ones encourage people NOT to do that.

I agree, but in another way the very process of long term therapy is more likely to lead to that dependence and self examination.

Well the suicide rates there are way higher than here, and the therapy rates are much lower. It could be a coincidence and perhaps these people would have done it anyway, but perhaps the correct medication and long term counselling (not a few pills and a bit of a chat as you say) would have helped a lot.

Maybe or it's down to the fact that Korea is a very competitive country, like Japan and their suicide rate is higher. Which profession has the highest suicide rate? Doctors. A highly stressful and competitive career. Of course their medical knowledge and access to drugs compounds the issue(higher rate of successful attempts). They have access to better medical care than the general population. Though the prospect of losing out career wise is also stronger, due to the stupid notion that mental illness is somehow shameful, so seem to be less likely to seek help.

Yet Israel has a low rate of suicide and can well be argued has a more stressful environment because of the threat of violence. It seems their "we're all in this together" vibe may be a protective effect. Same was seen in Romania in the past. Under the old communist regime suicide was much lower than today in a much freer society(as were rates of heart disease and cancer). The lowest rates of suicide? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate Look at the bottom of the list. Now maybe exclude the very Islamic countries as (like Ireland) the shame aspect would be high and likely massively under reported accordingly. But looking at whats left, there are countries there with very low levels of access to therapies. Compare them to the US, the land of therapy and the pill for every ill. They have a higher rate than Ireland and significantly higher rate than Guatemala, which has a much lower level of therapy access. If it had such an effect, you would expect to see some correlation? In the same way you see a clear correlation with physical longevity and access to good medical care.

Very complex stuff. The level of access to therapies, medical or otherwise is but one factor. IMHO quite a small one. I would reckon that access is very useful as a response to the particular societies pressures impacting on the individual. Just on a personal note, all but one of the people I've known who attempted or committed suicide were under the care of a mental health professional.

princess-lala

This annoys me so much! Ive actually tried to stay away from this thread because I know first hand what real depression is like!

I see people every day saying they are depressed ( I used to be one of those) and its only one small little problem! Depression is a serious illness and there still isnt enough awareness about it!

I saw my cousin who would be very upper class! At 13 she was diagnosed with an eating disorder and depression! All stemming from watching her mother battle with food for years! This girl is now 19 and still battling with both her weight and "depression". When shes heavy her mother is telling her shes fat! When shes skinny her mother is telling her shes "fat" how can she win!! I do understand why she is the way she is but at 13 to be put on medication because her mother is telling her what way she should look is wrong imo.

Too many doctors are handing out medication to every tom dick and harry with little or no background into the persons life. Medication alone isnt going to make depression go away! Very few doctors actually send people to councelling to try sort out the actual problem.

As for the depression and suicide - my boyfriend was trying to get help and had never self harmed or attempted suicide before. He went to his doctor and fair play she was brilliant. Sent him to certain people, he was waiting to go into therapy when he died, the hospital he was to go to couldnt give him a date as to when they could fit him in!! They gave him sessions with a councellor who said after he died that he was the last person she ever thought would commit suicide!! There isnt always that connection!!

:mad: Now rant over!

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

One criteria could be the mental health of the adults that result from the upbringing. Even so that's too variable and too complex. You can have outliers in any family. You could have 4 siblings raised in the same(or similar) environment, where one becomes mentally ill, or 4 siblings where 3 are mentally ill and one isnt. So I agree its very complex and hard to make a call. I think people naturally look at people who appear to have the "perfect" upbringing and yet turn out unhappy and wonder why. Of course it is too dependent on what ones definition of "perfect" is.

Well that's it. It's hard enough to be struggling with depression and then have people looking at you thinking (or saying) 'what does he/she have to be depressed about?'

Of course not, but one may feed the other. If you have people in a group that are on these medications and share that with the group, it's more likely other members of that group will see that as an option. It becomes more normalised and expected. I am all for normalising mental illness and taking away the BS of social shame that follows it like a bad smell. I'm just concerned that we replace one stupid idea with another less stupid, but still damaging one.

I don't really buy it. Bad doctors just give out pills for everything. I've gone to the doctor with minor medical problems and been given strong medication with serious side effects. I was offered Roaccutane for acne without being offered less harsh alternatives first. In those cases I said, 'hmm, I'd rather try something else.'

I agree, but in another way the very process of long term therapy is more likely to lead to that dependence and self examination.

Says who? I know my mental health has come on leaps and bounds since I started seeing a counsellor. I can't see very much wrong with it. Just having an outside perspective and someone talking to you without judgements can be really helpful for you to analyse your behaviour and work on changing it. Some people are lucky enough to have friends and family they can confide in and some aren't. Depression and mental health issues can be incredibly isolating for lots of people and just talking to someone who's seen it all before and understands can be a tremendous help. I think some people aren't getting that even mild/moderate mental health issues can manifest as compulsive behaviours, paranoia, extreme social anxiety etc and telling someone to go for a jog or eat a pomegranate just isn't going to help.

Maybe or it's down to the fact that Korea is a very competitive country, like Japan and their suicide rate is higher. Which profession has the highest suicide rate? Doctors. A highly stressful and competitive career. Of course their medical knowledge and access to drugs compounds the issue(higher rate of successful attempts). They have access to better medical care than the general population. Though the prospect of losing out career wise is also stronger, due to the stupid notion that mental illness is somehow shameful, so seem to be less likely to seek help.

My point is that Korea is a rich country like ours and still it would be silly to say 'what do they have to be so sad about?' when they have a peaceful living environment, all the latest gadgets, the best education. Obviously they are still dealing with other very real issues, like Irish people are.

I still just don't buy that it's fashionable to be depressed. I don't feel like that at all. I feel like people see at as a weakness and would tell me to cop on which is why I don't tell anyone about it. I have a cousin with severe depression/mental health issues who ended up on a psych ward last year and she's totally ashamed. She tells people she had stomach problems because she couldn't handle people thinking that she's a loon. I think depression and mental health issues are still taboo. I feel more comfortable telling people I had a pelvic ultrasound or a chunk cut out of my cervix than that I see a counsellor.

Wibbs

[quote=[Deleted User];65943982]I don't really buy it. Bad doctors just give out pills for everything. I've gone to the doctor with minor medical problems and been given strong medication with serious side effects. I was offered Roaccutane for acne without being offered less harsh alternatives first. In those cases I said, 'hmm, I'd rather try something else.' [/QUOTE]Easy when its acne, not so easy when you're mentally stressed and you may be doubting your own faculties(and the doctor may doubt your faculties). You're much more likely to go for anything that would give you relief. Doubly so if more and more people are on anti d's and that is the route most likely to be taken(which they are). Bit of a diff. It's precisely analogous to your roaccutane for acne example.

My point is that Korea is a rich country like ours and still it would be silly to say 'what do they have to be so sad about?' when they have a peaceful living environment, all the latest gadgets, the best education. Obviously they are still dealing with other very real issues, like Irish people are.

And my point was that the availability of mental health care is not always correlated with the level of mental illness in a society. The availability of pre and post natal care in a country massively impacts women's health and the health of any children they have. So my interest lies in the why? Surely if the meds and therapies were working across a society, then those societies with greater access and uptake of these therapies would show lower rates than those that dont? They dont, so there's a big part of the puzzle missing.

I still just don't buy that it's fashionable to be depressed.

Fashionable is the wrong word. It brings the wrong connotations. It makes it sound frivolous. Which it is not. What I mean by "fashionable" is that it is in danger of being over medicalised. It's more acceptable to medicalise it and for patients to agree with this medical label and the medications that follow on its heels. It's in danger of that focus being spread wider than it should be. It may not be fashionable, but it is more acceptable that more and more lower level conditions are treated with the same therapies as the more serious conditions(where they actually show a benefit above placebo).

While I do feel that some forms of talking therapy can be counter productive, that can be said of any therapy and I do think it's a much better start point than the medication route. IMHO the reliance on SSRI's and similar especailly when including low and medium level conditions is a ticking time bomb, or simply not useful.

This is long, but worth a watch. It is not some hippie praising fennel tea and chakra reallignment either. Irish lad too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Healy_%28psychiatrist%29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X53r3zTQJNk

Higher risks of suicide ideation
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/147/2/207?ijkey=e30eabcd959df3be6c44f953352f5db73b02dc02&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha Placebo seems a much nicer bet all of a sudden.

Now these drugs will highten mood in many, but so will stimulants http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.stimulants.html we're talking amphetamines here, IE "speed" "uppers".

I don't feel like that at all. I feel like people see at as a weakness and would tell me to cop on which is why I don't tell anyone about it. I have a cousin with severe depression/mental health issues who ended up on a psych ward last year and she's totally ashamed. She tells people she had stomach problems because she couldn't handle people thinking that she's a loon. I think depression and mental health issues are still taboo. I feel more comfortable telling people I had a pelvic ultrasound or a chunk cut out of my cervix than that I see a counsellor.

Oh I agree there is still that taboo. Which is daft.

Charlie.

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet Israel has a low rate of suicide and can well be argued has a more stressful environment because of the threat of violence. It seems their "we're all in this together" vibe may be a protective effect. Same was seen in Romania in the past. Under the old communist regime suicide was much lower than today in a much freer society(as were rates of heart disease and cancer). correlation? In the same way you see a clear correlation with physical longevity and access to good medical care.

Yeah Durkheim has some very interesting theories on this. The same can be seen in areas in Northern Ireland where suicide rates rose after the troubles in areas where there was once much greater army/police, presence/control. Durkheim would put this rise down to an unregulated society.

Wibbs

Yea or the common good against the common enemy which led to higher social cohesion. Similar kinda thing happened in WW2.