Auctioneers and Estate Agents

Gigiwagga

It seems that there in an empty chair in the whole collapse we are currently suffering. The banks and politicians are getting it in the neck and rightly so, bring it on, string them up etc...etc... But one considerably guilty group in all this, and they're keeping their heads very much below the parapet it seems to me, are the Auctioneers and Estate agents. I think there should be a full and in depth Garda investigation into their involvement in the fiasco. And this should go right back to 2000 at least. I bought a house in Cork City approx 16 years ago for 25,000 punts, not a lot. I know of many people at the time who bought houses for 10,000 and 15,000. We had a curiosity evaluation of our house 3 years ago which was around €550,000. Obviously that would have fallen hugely in the last couple of years, but what puzzles me is the power and control the Estate Agents and Auctioneers have over the selling prices of houses through out the country. Even when we put in a bid for our house, we were told some else had offered more, we had to increase our offer, this happened twice before we finally got the house.
This process obviously happened in thousands of purchases around Ireland, with ever increasing figures, the bigger the sale price, the bigger the percentage for the middle men, oh...at this point I may as well include Conveyancing Solicitors in the Garda investigation. How many people purchasing houses in Ireland over the last 10 years were told there was a counterbid and another and another, was there ever actual proof that these bidders actually existed or were they virtual or proxy bidders, to manipulate the housing market.
I think this is critical to the current situation many find themselves in. I believe the Auctioneers were seriously guilty of price manipulation over and over. This can of worms needs to be ripped open. There should be serious regulation put in place controlling house price evaluation in the future. Nothing as yet has happened in this regard, just more B******t, I know I'm in a luckier position than many others are, though I have recently lost my business after being self employed for 25 years, I know many who have been crucified, and continue to be.
Protesting on the streets seems to just attract all the usual suspects, I feel utterly frustrated with the governments utter ineptitude.

murphaph

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Even when we put in a bid for our house, we were told some else had offered more, we had to increase our offer, this happened twice before we finally got the house.

Did you believe your first offer was all the house was worth? If so, you should have looked at something else. If not, then you didn't pay more for the house than it was worth to you, so what's the problem?

Every country has estate agents. In Germany I had to PAY 6% + VAT to the estate agent of the guy who I bought my flat from. This is the way it's done here. The difference however is that the German public is basically a sensible bunch of people who won't allow themselves to be ripped off. If they have a fair price in their mind for something, they'll pay that, and no more! Paddy needs to learn to do the same as Fritz tbh.

Gigiwagga

We made the offer based on the valuation given by the Auctioneer, later that same day we were told someone had offered more etc...

We had looked at many properties. The price listed by the auctioneer is called the GUIDE price. This, I believe, is where the sleight of hand occurs in Ireland, the guide price gets people interested then the Auctioneers have a field day. This happened particularly from 2000 to 2005.

dromdrom

Gigiwagga wrote: »

We made the offer based on the valuation given by the Auctioneer, later that same day we were told someone had offered more etc...

We had looked at many properties. The price listed by the auctioneer is called the GUIDE price. This, I believe, is where the sleight of hand occurs in Ireland, the guide price gets people interested then the Auctioneers have a field day. This happened particularly from 2000 to 2005.

Seems to be some confusion here , an auctioneer's job is to achieve the maximum selling price for a seller, he is the sellers agent, no point in giving about auctioneers attempting to get the maximum selling price for their client

Gigiwagga

dromdrom wrote: »

Seems to be some confusion here , an auctioneer's job is to achieve the maximum selling price for a seller, he is the sellers agent, no point in giving about auctioneers attempting to get the maximum selling price for their client

Sure, that is true. However the auctioneers primary concern is profit for themselves. And if the seller happens to be a developer, the sky is the limit, as we have seen here in Ireland. The auctioneer generates the volatility by bouncing potential purchasers off each other, I believe sometimes the potential purchasers didn't exist, the auctioneer created them, over and over.

Coupled with the easy credit, both fueled the exponential property price rises.

The auctioneers cleaned up on their percentages.

Yes the market sets the price. I think in a great many instances the market was virtual, conning the real buyers.

dromdrom

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Sure, that is true. However the auctioneers primary concern is profit for themselves. And if the seller happens to be a developer, the sky is the limit, as we have seen here in Ireland. The auctioneer generates the volatility by bouncing potential purchasers off each other, I believe sometimes the potential purchasers didn't exist, the auctioneer created them, over and over.

If you were selling a house surely you would want to achieve the maximum possible selling price, at the end of the day the auctioneer doesn't sign the contract, the buyer does. People can't abdicate personal responsibility.

murphaph

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Sure, that is true. However the auctioneers primary concern is profit for themselves. And if the seller happens to be a developer, the sky is the limit, as we have seen here in Ireland. The auctioneer generates the volatility by bouncing potential purchasers off each other, I believe sometimes the potential purchasers didn't exist, the auctioneer created them, over and over.

Then this is where the Irish consumer needs to wise up. Of course this sort of carry on happens everywhere...but consumers seem a bit more savvy in other countries, countries that have avoided massive property bubbles. People need to look at the product, car, house etc. and simply decide for themselves if it offers good value for money. If even 30% of the people who bought properties in Ireland over the last decade had sat down, added the cost of the bricks and mortar of their house together and realised they were being charged 300% more on top of that for labour and a tiny patch of land and said "actually, this is terrible value for money, I'm out" then the bubble would never have happened.

ei.sdraob

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Sure, that is true. However the auctioneers primary concern is profit for themselves. And if the seller happens to be a developer, the sky is the limit, as we have seen here in Ireland. The auctioneer generates the volatility by bouncing potential purchasers off each other, I believe sometimes the potential purchasers didn't exist, the auctioneer created them, over and over.

now now

theres two sides in a contract/negotiation
yes auctioneers were (are) playing people against each other, that's their job
but if the sheep are willing not to walk away or bargain harder, well they then deserve to be ripped off


what is it with blaming bankers, politicians, auctioneers, builders?
what about the sheeple themselves?
did they force people to sign on the dotted line and buy shoeboxes?
are people so incapable of independent rational analysis?

you know what im starting to think that people of this country deserve what they got themselves into, the price for stupidity is failure


cue "you banker loving, auctioneer caring, monstrous imbecile" type responses

Gigiwagga

I'm in Cork and there were fairly large scale developments here where the auctioneer was the developer behind the scheme, working hand in hand with the builder. In some instances they even arranged the finance.

Yeah I know people were idiots and all that. But it was drummed into them from all sectors, 'property ladder' and other clever turns of phrase, generated a kind of social panic, massaged by easy credit and the political hacks and media flogging and flogging for all they were worth.

It can be hard to withstand those none too subtle pressures.

Will it happen again, you betcha...in a couple of decades.

dromdrom

Buying a house if a personal decision , if you listen to the maddening crowd or make an uninformed decision then it still comes down to the individual concerned, people need to accept personal responsibility for decisions they make

Zynks

Back in 2003 when we made an offer (5% below asking) for our current house we were told there was a bid over asking. We said it was too much and pulled out..... only for three days later the agent to call me and say it was my 'lucky' day, the offer had been accepted. Only that I said that I was now making a new offer, 5% lower again.... 10 days later we had sale agreed. I honestly believe this was a case of attempting to artificially pump up the price.

I have never heard of someone making an offer for a house and not being told that there was another buyer straight away.

Bottom line: I don't trust anything that comes out of an agents mouth, but hey, what would happen to those smarty pants if they ran out of fools?

changes

OP i agree entirely with your post. Its a perfectly fair question to ask.

If the estate agents were actually lying then that should be against the law. Deception is what i would call it.

So much of that went on and yes they played a massive part in the boom. Our laws were weak and the consumer was left to fend for himself while the professionals got up to all sorts.

That is why most mature countries put in place rules and safe guards to protect the average punter who only dips his toe into things like buying a house once or twice in a life time. This arguement that you sign the dotted line you are to blame is tripe imo. The law of the jungle sort of rubbish.... alot of this is david vs goliath sort of stuff and the consumer needs protection. Proper regulation, laws and adequate safeguards would have saved alot of the pain we are in now.

murphaph

changes wrote: »

OP i agree entirely with your post. Its a perfectly fair question to ask.

If the estate agents were actually lying then that should be against the law. Deception is what i would call it.

So much of that went on and yes they played a massive part in the boom. Our laws were weak and the consumer was left to fend for himself while the professionals got up to all sorts.

That is why most mature countries put in place rules and safe guards to protect the average punter who only dips his toe into things like buying a house once or twice in a life time. This arguement that you sign the dotted line you are to blame is tripe imo. The law of the jungle sort of rubbish.... alot of this is david vs goliath sort of stuff and the consumer needs protection. Proper regulation, laws and adequate safeguards would have saved alot of the pain we are in now.

Nonsense, the German system of estate agents is even worse than the Irish one, yet no German boom occured! They tried it on with me when I was buying here: "we think the seller will accept x" they said. I offered x - y and it was accepted. I offered what I thought was a fair price and am happy with my purchase, end of story. Just how much protection does the Irish consumer need from himself?

There are areas of property purchasing that need reform, mostly to do with the legals of completing and property registration which needs to be more streamlined and computerised. It is (on a practical level) IMPOSSIBLE to regulate against an estate agent "hinting" that they've had a better offer. People need to simply look at the property and decide what they are prepared to pay for it, and NO MORE! That will prevent stupid bubbles faster than any impossible to police legislation.

changes

murphaph wrote: »

Nonsense, the German system of estate agents is even worse than the Irish one, yet no German boom occured! They tried it on with me when I was buying here: "we think the seller will accept x" they said. I offered x - y and it was accepted. I offered what I thought was a fair price and am happy with my purchase, end of story. Just how much protection does the Irish consumer need from himself?

Slight difference between that and them actually lying by saying we have a bid in already for more than you may have offered.

murphaph

changes wrote: »

Slight difference between that and them actually lying by saying we have a bid in already for more than you may have offered.

True, but only a slight difference and I only dealt with one agent, I guarantee the same underhand tactics are used here by them. They are generally not liked and distrusted by Germans...for good reason.

recedite

Gigiwagga wrote: »

It seems that there in an empty chair in the whole collapse we are currently suffering. The banks and politicians are getting it in the neck and rightly so.

The estate agents have been hit hard where it hurts; their incomes. The polititicians meanwhile continue to borrow money abroad to pay themselves and the bankers.

Scarab80

recedite wrote: »

The estate agents have been hit hard where it hurts; their incomes. The polititicians meanwhile continue to borrow money abroad to pay themselves and the bankers.

Wow, 20bn a year for politician and banker salaries - i had no idea they earned that much!

Head The Wall

Look making an offer on a house is similar to an auction on E-bay. You decide what the item is worth and thats the offer you make. If you win you get it, if you don't someone else values it more than you.

It's a simple scenario really, if you go out looking with an open ended budget getting ripped off will be the result.

ei.sdraob

Scarab80 wrote: »

Wow, 20bn a year for politician and banker salaries - i had no idea they earned that much!

These politicians are still in power aint they? earning nice salaries and pensions

zootroid

Gigiwagga wrote: »

It seems that there in an empty chair in the whole collapse we are currently suffering. The banks and politicians are getting it in the neck and rightly so, bring it on, string them up etc...etc... But one considerably guilty group in all this, and they're keeping their heads very much below the parapet it seems to me, are the Auctioneers and Estate agents. I think there should be a full and in depth Garda investigation into their involvement in the fiasco. And this should go right back to 2000 at least. I bought a house in Cork City approx 16 years ago for 25,000 punts, not a lot. I know of many people at the time who bought houses for 10,000 and 15,000. We had a curiosity evaluation of our house 3 years ago which was around €550,000. Obviously that would have fallen hugely in the last couple of years, but what puzzles me is the power and control the Estate Agents and Auctioneers have over the selling prices of houses through out the country. Even when we put in a bid for our house, we were told some else had offered more, we had to increase our offer, this happened twice before we finally got the house.
This process obviously happened in thousands of purchases around Ireland, with ever increasing figures, the bigger the sale price, the bigger the percentage for the middle men, oh...at this point I may as well include Conveyancing Solicitors in the Garda investigation. How many people purchasing houses in Ireland over the last 10 years were told there was a counterbid and another and another, was there ever actual proof that these bidders actually existed or were they virtual or proxy bidders, to manipulate the housing market.
I think this is critical to the current situation many find themselves in. I believe the Auctioneers were seriously guilty of price manipulation over and over. This can of worms needs to be ripped open. There should be serious regulation put in place controlling house price evaluation in the future. Nothing as yet has happened in this regard, just more B******t, I know I'm in a luckier position than many others are, though I have recently lost my business after being self employed for 25 years, I know many who have been crucified, and continue to be.
Protesting on the streets seems to just attract all the usual suspects, I feel utterly frustrated with the governments utter ineptitude.

I'm not sure what regulations you could put in place, the auctioneer acts on the behalf of the seller to sell the house. Buyers need to detach themselves somewhat, and not go above what they value the house to be, and more importantly, what they can afford.

That being said, I would like to see a register of house prices set up, to allow more transparency in the market. Each time a house is sold, the price it is sold for is recorded, and this information can be accessed by anyone. For almost any other product you buy you can compare prices, but you can't with house as you are going by the auctioneers valuation, which may be unrealistic, as the auctioneer has an incentive to up the price as his fee is a percentage of the sales price.

Head The Wall

zootroid wrote: »

I'm not sure what regulations you could put in place, the auctioneer acts on the behalf of the seller to sell the house. Buyers need to detach themselves somewhat, and not go above what they value the house to be, and more importantly, what they can afford.

That being said, I would like to see a register of house prices set up, to allow more transparency in the market. Each time a house is sold, the price it is sold for is recorded, and this information can be accessed by anyone. For almost any other product you buy you can compare prices, but you can't with house as you are going by the auctioneers valuation, which may be unrealistic, as the auctioneer has an incentive to up the price as his fee is a percentage of the sales price.

I think something that they could do is to make sure all offers have to be recieved in writing. This would be a legal offer but should contain contact details etc.

The thinking is that the eventual purchaser could request a paper trail of the offers and who they were. This could alleviate the ghost bidders situation. It's not a perfect solution but could do with tweaking

dan_d

Actually what amazes me is that the rebuild value of your house is included in your house insurance documents. Possibly it's also in the deeds you get handed. It's literally written in front of people and yet they were still stupid enough to pay massive prices for their houses.
Or am I the only one stupid enough to read documents like that before I sign them????
On a slightly different topic, I recently had the rebuild value of my house re-valued (if that makes sense) as i had my suspicions that we were paying above the odds for house insurance.After a very quick survey I was quoted a rebuild figure 11,000eur HIGHER than what we had insured for 2 years ago!!!I politely informed the nice man at the other end of the phone that I do in fact work in the construction industry and that figure was impossible, and could he explain his formula to me? So he did.Turns out he was using a factor based on last year's prices for rebuilding a 4 bed house. Needless to say, I set him straight and he very kindly returned to me 2 days later with a new figure. The rebuild value of my house has dropped by 9000eur, along with my premium which is now down 150eur.
While the survey cost 130eur to be carried out by a registered valuer, I feel I got my money's worth. I know I digress from the thread title, but take note if you're renewing any of your premiums like that!

murphaph

dan_d wrote: »

Actually what amazes me is that the rebuild value of your house is included in your house insurance documents. Possibly it's also in the deeds you get handed. It's literally written in front of people and yet they were still stupid enough to pay massive prices for their houses.
Or am I the only one stupid enough to read documents like that before I sign them????
On a slightly different topic, I recently had the rebuild value of my house re-valued (if that makes sense) as i had my suspicions that we were paying above the odds for house insurance.After a very quick survey I was quoted a rebuild figure 11,000eur HIGHER than what we had insured for 2 years ago!!!I politely informed the nice man at the other end of the phone that I do in fact work in the construction industry and that figure was impossible, and could he explain his formula to me? So he did.Turns out he was using a factor based on last year's prices for rebuilding a 4 bed house. Needless to say, I set him straight and he very kindly returned to me 2 days later with a new figure. The rebuild value of my house has dropped by 9000eur, along with my premium which is now down 150eur.
While the survey cost 130eur to be carried out by a registered valuer, I feel I got my money's worth. I know I digress from the thread title, but take note if you're renewing any of your premiums like that!

I just use the guide here. It is at most 12 months out of date but pretty accurate. I also changed my valuation a fair bit this year.

Banned Account

Sealed bids. /thread

Dob74

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now now

theres two sides in a contract/negotiation
yes auctioneers were (are) playing people against each other, that's their job
but if the sheep are willing not to walk away or bargain harder, well they then deserve to be ripped off


what is it with blaming bankers, politicians, auctioneers, builders?
what about the sheeple themselves?
did they force people to sign on the dotted line and buy shoeboxes?
are people so incapable of independent rational analysis?

you know what im starting to think that people of this country deserve what they got themselves into, the price for stupidity is failure


cue "you banker loving, auctioneer caring, monstrous imbecile" type responses

Auctioneer's, Soliticor's and councilor's are the three groups that control the housing market and surprise surprise they are self regulated.
The number of councilors who are also auctioneers is amazing. In one ward in country Cork its 2 out 3 Councilors are auctioneers. I am sure its the same throughout the country.

Since longterm leasing of residental housing is not done in this country, purchasing is he only answer. If you want to live in a house you have to deal with the professions above. And they are not out to help the consumer. They just want to bend you over a barrell.

Now is the time to bring in proper regulation on guide prices etc.
Make the rules favourable to the consumer, they could start by having a proper price index. Instead of relying on the TBS. Not that a banker would ever lie.
But with the clout the boys have, it aint going to happen.

thebman

Two of the biggest purchases people make in their lifes, buying a house and a car are the least regulated.

Is anybody really surprised these are the areas left open to exploit people? Why do politicians fear clamping down on obviously wrong activity in these areas?

valuseeker

thebman wrote: »

Two of the biggest purchases people make in their lifes, buying a house and a car are the least regulated.

Is anybody really surprised these are the areas left open to exploit people? Why do politicians fear clamping down on obviously wrong activity in these areas?

You are on the ball and got it in one, but the influence both exert with political forces is an inquiry in itself.

ei.sdraob

Dob74 wrote: »

Auctioneer's, Soliticor's and councilor's are the three groups that control the housing market and surprise surprise they are self regulated.
The number of councilors who are also auctioneers is amazing. In one ward in country Cork its 2 out 3 Councilors are auctioneers. I am sure its the same throughout the country.

Since longterm leasing of residental housing is not done in this country, purchasing is he only answer. If you want to live in a house you have to deal with the professions above. And they are not out to help the consumer. They just want to bend you over a barrell.

Now is the time to bring in proper regulation on guide prices etc.
Make the rules favourable to the consumer, they could start by having a proper price index. Instead of relying on the TBS. Not that a banker would ever lie.
But with the clout the boys have, it aint going to happen.

I aint defending them or their likes

my post was bringing some balance into the thread

trying to point out that the people are equally as responsible

its only "fair" no

Japer

Gigiwagga wrote: »

It seems that there in an empty chair in the whole collapse we are currently suffering. The banks and politicians are getting it in the neck and rightly so, bring it on, string them up etc...etc... But one considerably guilty group in all this, and they're keeping their heads very much below the parapet it seems to me, are the Auctioneers and Estate agents.

Another person who I think has a lot to answer for is the editor of the property suppliment in the Sunday Indo , from the boom years. The suppliment has obviously disappeared now, and I hope that property editor lost his job. Do you remember some of the stuff he was writing, to egg the market on ? Not to mention encouraging others to go abroad and buy property overseas ? Remember the Irish consortium who raised the tricolour over some of the finest hotels in London, after buying them and paying was it a billion plus ? They are now in NAMA ( i.e. owned by you and me ) of course.

Dob74

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I aint defending them or their likes

my post was bringing some balance into the thread

trying to point out that the people are equally as responsible

its only "fair" no

I agree that people should not have been so easily fooled.
But its not the individual consumer how is to blame but the system at large.
The so called professionals in key positions in power have not been doing there job.
Or more likely have been doing there job to there liking of there politial masters.( I am sure Neary was doing actually what Ahern, McCreevy and Harney wanted)

The planners rezoned land in the middle of nowhere.
The Bankers lent with no down payments, no ratio's to earning and no reserve's to back them up. Just picked money out of the inter bank lending and when that frooze, there political bodies backed them.
The auctioneers and legal services milked the system and gave bad advice.

So its easy being the monday morning quarterback and blaming the poor bast*rds who paid through the nose for a house to live in.

Senior bankers, politians, planners are paid top dollar in this country and all of them made a complete mess of the jobs they do.

So when it comes to the blame I would look at the people in policy making not foolish consumers.