The skewed perception of male abusers.

Nevyn

Disclaimer:
I am not saying only men abuse.
I am not saying that all men abuse.
I am not saying any poster is an abuser.


I found a link to this in my rss feeds.
It's a report on the attitudes and perceptions of men who commit partner abuse.

http://futurity.org/society-culture/men-who-batter-think-other-guys-do-too/

Society & Culture - Posted by Joel Schwarz-UW on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:58

“With sexual assault the more a man thought it was prevalent the more likely he was to engage in such behavior. If we can correct misperceptions about the prevalence of intimate partner violence, we have a chance to change men’s behavior. If you give them factual information it is harder for them to justify their behavior,” Clayton Neighbors says.

U. WASHINGTON (US)—Men who engage in domestic violence consistently overestimate how common such behavior is, and the more they overestimate, the more they engage in abusing their partner.

“We don’t know why men make these overestimations, but there are a couple of likely reasons,” says Clayton Neighbors, an affiliate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of Washington and a professor of psychology at the University of Houston.

“Men who engage in violent behavior justify it in their mind by thinking it is more common and saying, ‘Most guys slap their women around so it is okay to engage in it.’ Or it could be that misperceptions about violence cause the behavior.”

Neighbors says these men overestimated by two to three times the actual rates of seven behaviors ranging from throwing something at a partner to rape. Details of the study will be published in the journal Violence Against Women.

“Another way of looking at this would be wearing a red shirt. If you think everyone is wearing a red shirt then it is okay for you to wear one too. Or if you wear a red shirt you might overestimate the number of other people who are wearing red shirts,” he explains.

The work is the first to document overestimation of intimate partner violence by batterers and is consistent with findings about a variety of other harmful behaviors such as substance use, gambling, and eating disorders. This line of research looks at social norms, or what is considered to be appropriate and inappropriate behavior in society.

“Social norms theory suggests that people act in a way that they believe is consistent with what the average person does,” adds Denise Walker, research professor of social work and co-director of the Innovative Programs Research Group.

The research looked at 124 men who were enrolled in a larger treatment intervention study for domestic violence. The men, all of whom had participated in violence against a partner in the previous 90 days, were asked to estimate the percentage of men who had ever engaged in seven forms of abuse.

These included throwing something at a partner that could hurt; pushing, grabbing, or shoving a partner; slapping or hitting; choking; beating up a partner; threatening a partner with a gun; and forcing a partner have sex when they did not want to.

Data on the percentage of men who actually engaged in these abusive behaviors were drawn from the National Violence Against Women Survey, funded by the National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In every case the men vastly overestimated the actual instances of abuse. For example, the participants on average thought 27.6 percent of men had thrown something with the intent of hurting a partner while the actual number is 11.9 percent. Similarly, they believed 23.6 percent of men had forced their partner to have sex involuntary compared to 7.9 percent in reality.

“With sexual assault the more a man thought it was prevalent the more likely he was to engage in such behavior. If we can correct misperceptions about the prevalence of intimate partner violence, we have a chance to change men’s behavior. If you give them factual information it is harder for them to justify their behavior,” Neighbors says

“It is unclear if we can change perpetrators’ behavior by correcting their misperceptions about intimate partner violence,” Walker says.

However, work in alcohol use suggests that changing misperceptions about drinking changes drinking behavior among college students. Consistent with social norms theory, people are motivated to be ‘average’ in many ways, particularly if the behavior in question could be considered risky or taboo.”

Culturally it used to be an acceptable thing to do in this country and for the majority it no longer is, but there are still pockets of our society where it's still deemed 'normal'.

I know that if for you in you life you've never been touched by partner abuse or know anyone who has it can seem like sureal concept and a bit of a myth which I guess is why people who have that back ground will make jokes about it, as actually doing it is something which they would never do or they would think they would never do.

But I find myself thinking if those jokes with anyone ever saying that they really are just 'jokes' normalise the idea that this happens and it's not all that serious. Same way the 'joke' of the henpacked abused wimp of a man keeps men who are experiencing partner abuse from getting help and reporting it.

I that toxic intimate relationships do leave the person who's being abuse with a twisted mindset, one which talks themselves into thinking it's ok or normal and it looks like the same thing happens on the other side of that equation.

copacetic

That is a simple societal norm for all behaviour, racism, crime etc, it's not limited to abuse. Not sure what you are looking for by posting it here?

Nevyn

Do guys ever talk to other guys about and how depite the jokes it's never cool?
Do ye all just assume that everyone else is on the same page as you?

copacetic

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do guys ever talk to other guys about and how depite the jokes it's never cool?
Do ye all just assume that everyone else is on the same page as you?

despite what jokes? and are u kidding me? Do I ever drop into conversation with friends thats it's never cool to abuse someone? No, I don't.

Thaed do you go around telling all your friends this? Male and/or female. Or are you guilty of just assuming that they already know it? Do you remind them daily not to beat their kids, in case they think it's ok?

I really don't get your initial disclaimer, followed by all the loaded questions.
'despite the jokes' 'just assume' etc.

Otis Driftwood

Its an unwritten rule.

Ive spoken a few times with a couple of close friends about domestic abuse/sexual assault/date rape and have always found it to be an extremely emotive subject matter.Its something that I avoid talking about in general because of how thinking about it makes me feel,I dont like the thoughts I get when I hear about things like this happening.

I would like to think that none of my friends would never commit anything like this but at the end of the day,no-one knows for sure,all I can speak for is myself.

There is still a stigma attached to it,even for battered women.Its changing slowly but sadly I think it will be a long time before there is complete open ness about it.

The above probably doesnt make much sense.

Maguined

It's pretty simple really, people don't like to think that they are evil or doing something wrong, so it's always easier to justify it by saying everyone else is doing it.

Anyone I have ever talked to that has cheated on their partner has always turned around and said "sure everyone cheats" because it is much simpler to say that everyone is doing it rather than admit that they done something wrong and that makes them a bad person.

If a man hits a woman he justifies by saying thats the done thing, the social norm so he was not doing anything really wrong. Just the same way as when a woman hits a man she has not done anything wrong because she can't really hurt a man as he is so much bigger, so its not really abuse, abuse is only when a big strong man hits a small weak woman so in her mind its "okay" that she is beating her boyfriend/husband etc.

This is a completely different issue about the joking, joking is not about "normalising" abuse just as it is not "normalising" racism, sexism, sextarianism or anything else that we joke about. I have had friends tell the most horribly racist jokes and they are not racist in the slightest, just as nearly every friend that has told me a rape or abuse joke have always been the strongest supporters to instating the death penalty every time we read about some horrible new case in a newspaper.

In fact I am one of those people, I make rape/abuse/sexist/racist jokes all the time because those things are so abnormal that someone would do such a thing that its so crazy to my mind i joke about their apparent normality with it. I in no way consider those situations normal and joking about them is not an attempt to normalise them, if the law did not prevent me i would kill rapists, beat up abusers and kick the racists out of the country.

Mrmoe

I think it is always implied that violence against women is never acceptable. I've never discussed it because it is plainly obvious to me and the people I know. That is generally dictated by behaviour. Most people are generally non violent so I automatically assume that they know they hold the same view. It goes both ways too, I might joke about kicking my friends head in but that does not mean that I will ever do it and it is always painfully obvious that it is a joke and that violence is abhorrent. I don't think joking about violence makes it more acceptable.

CDfm

My own view is that domestic violence is a crime and should be treated as such. Irrespective of the gender of the perpetrator I would condemn it.

I knew one couple in the UK who were Irish and in one of their episodes they demolished a bedroom everything that was breakeble was thrashed.Another guy I know told me his relationship was getting to it and he got out of it.

I don't think guys admire or glorify abuse , more like the opposite, guys want to see abusers prosecuted and incarcerated.

We do know that men and women both abuse in about equal proportion and the child of an abusive adult is more likely to abuse. It has nothing to do with gender and a person is likely to copy the behaviour they learn whether they pick it up from mothers or fathers as the most successful way of dealing with lifes problems.

The reason no women were interviewed for the article is that there were no women on the programme. It makes you think.

So while having an intervention programme for men only or prosecutions for men only you are only dealing with half the equation.

We are a long long way off of seeing intervention programmes for female abusers and I believe you will only see real change when that occurs.

On the question you posed Thaedydal -do women talk about the abuse or glorify it or admit it?

Stheno

I'd infer from the article that Thead posted that humor/jokes about domestic violence/the role of women justify some men in thinking that it's ok to hit/beat women.

Women in my experience are less likely to have the same sense of humor or to joke about such matters, so are less likely to believe it's ok to do so, whilst in some instances still doing do.

Handsome Bob

There's nothing acceptable about it and blokes know this. They know it's not the norm to beat your partner, if anything, I think blokes know they would be vilified by their peers if they engaged in such actions.

I don't think domestic abusers do what they do because the feel it is acceptable among their peers, rather I think they do it because they don't know how to express their anger. I can guaran-damn-tee that any man within my circle would be ostricised for such actions, and I have six brothers, so by default I know a hell of a lot of men.

Stheno

LZ5by5 wrote: »

There's nothing acceptable about it and blokes know this. They know it's not the norm to beat your partner, if anything, I think blokes know they would be vilified by their peers if they engaged in such actions.

I don't think domestic abusers do what they do because the feel it is acceptable among their peers, rather I think they do it because they don't know how to express their anger. I can guaran-damn-tee that any man within my circle would be ostricised for such actions, and I have six brothers, so by default I know a hell of a lot of men.

I agree with you but with male abusers I think it's a subconsious thing that they take the "what a bitch" type comments to be normal and apply it to women and it's ok.

I can't imagine any abuser male or female boasting about their exploits.

Victor

Thaedydal wrote: »

Culturally it used to be an acceptable thing to do in this country and for the majority it no longer is, but there are still pockets of our society where it's still deemed 'normal'.

While I imagine "public" abuse was more tolerated, it is very hard to gauge abuse in private.

I know that if for you in you life you've never been touched by partner abuse or know anyone who has it can seem like sureal concept and a bit of a myth which I guess is why people who have that back ground will make jokes about it, as actually doing it is something which they would never do or they would think they would never do.

I wonder do people make jokes as a means of defence. We then own the horrible thing, the horrible thing doesn't own us. And of course there are limits to what jokes are tolerated, depending on the group vibe, the proximity of the subject matter and who is telling the joke.

But I find myself thinking if those jokes with anyone ever saying that they really are just 'jokes' normalise the idea that this happens and it's not all that serious.

With my last comments in mind, I think it takes a warped mind to consider abuse "normal" (or more correctly "acceptable"). However, I suppose that we need to keep the warped minds away from such topics.

I that toxic intimate relationships do leave the person who's being abuse with a twisted mindset, one which talks themselves into thinking it's ok or normal and it looks like the same thing happens on the other side of that equation.

I think certain cause/effect-type situations can be considered to have "internal moralities". Sometimes we root for the bank robber in a film (Inside Man comes to mind, possibly because the overt violence is limited), even though we know that bank robbery is wrong. Film is a form of escapism / fantasy though and things don't necessarily transfer to real life. Within a toxic relationship, it can be easy to confuse the internal morality ("He hit me because I was annoying him. I shouldn't annoy him.") and a more objective / moral position ("He was drunk and hit me because I was demanding money for food. He was wrong.").

Article wrote: »

The work is the first to document overestimation of intimate partner violence by batterers and is consistent with findings about a variety of other harmful behaviors such as substance use, gambling, and eating disorders. This line of research looks at social norms, or what is considered to be appropriate and inappropriate behavior in society.

...

“With sexual assault the more a man thought it was prevalent the more likely he was to engage in such behavior. If we can correct misperceptions about the prevalence of intimate partner violence, we have a chance to change men’s behavior. If you give them factual information it is harder for them to justify their behavior,” Neighbors says

I wonder if abusers' views are skewed because of their own experiences. There is a pattern with certain abuses that are passed from generation to generation. While some children who experience spousal abuse might will reject it, others will see it as normal behaviour. I don't know what draws the line between the two, but intervention and (perceived) outcomes are probably involved.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do guys ever talk to other guys about and how depite the jokes it's never cool?

Actually, not a lot. However, I was at dinner during the week and the couple were constantly throwing insults. Now, while it might have been good humoured, it was overdone and I almost felt like the child in the middle of a divorce at one stage.

Do ye all just assume that everyone else is on the same page as you?

No, I don't think we can ever assume we are all on the same page. Everyone's life is different, although there are often many similarities.

That brings us to another point. We exist in social circles. Most of my friends would be upper working class to middle class and have at least some college education. We (mostly) don't engage in physical abuse or petty crime*. There were some acquaintances that I confused for friends that have gone by the wayside. So I am reasonably confident that most of my current friends aren't abusing family members. For someone where the societal morality code is different, I imagine both the concept of and propensity to abuse is different - for some, (regularly) shouting at your family is normal, for others it is abuse.



* Who knows what traffic offences, white collar crime and firearms offences some engage in.

amacachi

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do guys ever talk to other guys about and how depite the jokes it's never cool?
Do ye all just assume that everyone else is on the same page as you?

Rarely talk about it, it goes without saying that it's generally not acceptable. I've said as well that if I did lose it and do it I'd pack my own stuff up.

I make jokes about it, I make fat jokes, cancer jokes, everything, it doesn't reflect on my beliefs.
I'm also not going to bother getting into a larger debate about the issue, but close enough to home the women usually bring it on themselves. I don't mean they deserved it or anything else, but that they were idiots. Yeah, yeah, emotional issues, dependence, etc., etc.

Victor

Maguined wrote: »

Anyone I have ever talked to that has cheated on their partner has always turned around and said "sure everyone cheats" because it is much simpler to say that everyone is doing it rather than admit that they done something wrong and that makes them a bad person.

But define "cheating". For some people, even thinking about someone else is cheating and they will feel guilty for it. At the other end of the scale, some people have no problem trying it on with just about anyone and still think its OK to say "I didn't cheat" just because they weren't successful.

just as nearly every friend that has told me a rape or abuse joke have always been the strongest supporters to instating the death penalty every time we read about some horrible new case in a newspaper.

And this shows the different standards people have. Some people will see the death penalty as an abuse, others see it as an imperative.

if the law did not prevent me i would kill rapists, beat up abusers and kick the racists out of the country.

So, are you an abusive person? You say you want to kill some people.

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think it is always implied that violence against women is never acceptable.

6pm on a Friday, one of my friends (female) carelessly (not deliberately, but without any consideration at all for her actions) spills a drink over another friend's (male) suit. He hits her over the head with his baseball cap. I was shocked at him, but I wasn't impressed by her either.

CDfm wrote: »

The reason no women were interviewed for the article is that there were no women on the programme. It makes you think.

We have to be careful here. It wouldn't be a good idea to run a mixed group, when one sub-group (male abusers) is known for abusing another sub-group (abusers who happen to female and will be targeted by the male abusers).

CDfm wrote: »

So while having an intervention programme for men only or prosecutions for men only you are only dealing with half the equation.

We are a long long way off of seeing intervention programmes for female abusers and I believe you will only see real change when that occurs.

I'm wondering if men are more prone to "successful" physical abuse and women are more prone to more subtle forms of abuse - psychological, neglect*, etc. have we as a society found it easier to deal with physical abuse as the evidence is easier to see?

nouggatti wrote: »

I'd infer from the article that Thead posted that humor/jokes about domestic violence/the role of women justify some men in thinking that it's ok to hit/beat women.

I'm not sure if justification is the right concept, more that certain skewed minds will see the jokes as societal approval.


* Its interesting that women are blamed for close neglect (food, hygiene, care) and men are blamed with failure to provide.

CDfm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

There's nothing acceptable about it and blokes know this. They know it's not the norm to beat your partner, if anything, I think blokes know they would be vilified by their peers if they engaged in such actions.

I don't think domestic abusers do what they do because the feel it is acceptable among their peers, rather I think they do it because they don't know how to express their anger. I can guaran-damn-tee that any man within my circle would be ostricised for such actions, and I have six brothers, so by default I know a hell of a lot of men.

Getting on my high horse a bit.

One of the problems with a discussion like this is that the article and questions are framed towards men and many academics now are loathe to use single sex studies for the very reason that they perpetuate a stereotype.

An article like this published in the Florida State University Law Journal Analyses how this happens.

http://www.papa-help.ch/downloads/kelly.pdf

And I think its a pity the OP is phrased the way it is when it could have been much better if phrased in a gender neutral way and used a single gender article when there are many others out there which would illustrate her point without resorting to it like this from Jezebel e-zine which links to an academic publication.

Have You Ever Beat Up A Boyfriend? Cause, Uh, We Have

Psychiatry News has a piece out this month about how men shouldn't be overlooked as victims of domestic violence, saying that:

Women are doing virtually everything these days that men are—working as doctors, lawyers, and rocket scientists; flying helicopters in combat; riding horses in the Kentucky Derby. And physically assaulting their spouses or partners.

According to a study of relationships that engage in nonreciprocal violence, a whopping 70% are perpetrated by women. So basically that means that girls are beating up their BFs and husbands and the dudes aren't fighting back. With Amy Winehouse busting open a can of whupass on her husband last week, we decided to conduct an informal survey of the Jezebels to see who's gotten violent with their men. After reviewing the answers, let's just say that it'd be wise to never ever **** with us.

One Jezebel got into it with a dude while they were breaking up, while another Jez went nuts on her guy and began violently shoving him. One of your editors heard her boyfriend flirting on the phone with another girl, so she slapped the phone out of his hands and hit him in the face and neck... "partially open handed." Another editor slapped a guy when "he told me he thought he had breast cancer." (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.) And lastly, one Jez punched a steady in the face and broke his glasses. He had discovered a sex story she was writing about another dude on her laptop, so he picked it up and threw it. And that's when she socked him. He was, uh, totally asking for it.


Men Shouldn't Be Overlooked as Victims of Partner Violence [Psychiatry Online]

http://jezebel.com/gossip/domestic-disturbances/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have-294383.php

PeakOutput

i assume they know its never cool

there is also never going to be no instances of abuse so we will hit the floor were it just wont reduce anymore and i reckon we are fairly close to it

there are always going to be guys who hit women we just gotta figure out the best way to deal with it

amacachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

there are always going to be guys who hit women we just gotta figure out the best way to deal with it

Wouldn't be too sure about that.

CDfm

Victor wrote: »

We have to be careful here. It wouldn't be a good idea to run a mixed group, when one sub-group (male abusers) is known for abusing another sub-group (abusers who happen to female and will be targeted by the male abusers).
I'm wondering if men are more prone to "successful" physical abuse and women are more prone to more subtle forms of abuse - psychological, neglect*, etc. have we as a society found it easier to deal with physical abuse as the evidence is easier to see?

.

The abuse is about equal which is why I feel that dealing with it on a gender basis is wrong.

We dont deal with drunk drivers like that i.e on a gender basis.Cops dont stop drunk women drivers and say drive on.

Anyway -its not me who says it -its all these academics.

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 271 scholarly investigations: 211 empirical studies and 60 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 365,000

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

amacachi

Another editor slapped a guy when "he told me he thought he had breast cancer." (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)

What exactly is loltastic about that?

CDfm

amacachi wrote: »

What exactly is loltastic about that?

I dont think its meant as loltastic -just a breezy piece introducing a serious topic to their readers.

Very open dont you think.

amacachi

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think its meant as loltastic -just a breezy piece introducing a serious topic to their readers.

Very open dont you think.

Yeah, I'm just wondering why they would laugh about a guy getting slapped for saying he thought he had cancer.

CDfm

amacachi wrote: »

Yeah, I'm just wondering why they would laugh about a guy getting slapped for saying he thought he had cancer.

I dont think the were trying to be PC there but fair ****s for honesty and introducing the topic to their readers.

And some of the comments are as weird as you or I would find male abusers justifying the same behaviour.

amacachi

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think the were trying to be PC there but fair ****s for honesty and introducing the topic to their readers.

And some of the comments are as weird as you or I would find male abusers justifying the same behaviour.

Can't see it in the comments but I'm sure the usual "Oh, but when women hit men they're not trying to do physical harm" bull**** is there somewhere.
Anyway, veering off topic a little bit.

There was a survey in Britain of young men not so long ago that showed a scarily high percentage thought it was OK to hit someone you're in a relationship with. Can't find it at the moment but would love to see a breakdown of the numbers in terms of race.

CDfm

amacachi wrote: »

Can't see it in the comments but I'm sure the usual "Oh, but when women hit men they're not trying to do physical harm" bull**** is there somewhere.

Yeah right :eek:

There was a survey in Britain of young men not so long ago that showed a scarily high percentage thought it was OK to hit someone you're in a relationship with. Can't find it at the moment but would love to see a breakdown of the numbers in terms of race.

Isnt it odd how you keep getting these single sex studies or studies with lots edited out.

The U. S. Department of Health and Human Services reports that for each year between 2000 and 2005, "female parents acting alone" were most common perpetrators of child abuse.




You have to ask yourself where people pick up their attitudes to DV from when you look at the US piechart.

I havent seen the study you are posting about but the type of study was important and who conducts it. There were studies doing the rounds a few years ago where they had been conducted in a womens refuge.

Victor

CDfm wrote: »

The abuse is about equal which is why I feel that dealing with it on a gender basis is wrong.

My point is that some male clients of that programme would seek to abuse some of the female clients and vice versa, because they are female.

We dont deal with drunk drivers like that i.e on a gender basis.

That is because drunk drivers (generally) don't target a particular group.

Would you put teenage and adult child abusers in the same treatment group? Knowing that some of the teenagers would be susceptible to abuse from some of the other clients and that some of the adult clients would target the teenagers?

CDfm

Victor wrote: »

My point is that some male clients of that programme would seek to abuse some of the female clients and vice versa, because they are female.

But abuse is usually a question of power and the common factor among abusers is the abuse not the gender and among the victims is that they are victims.

So service delivery to victims should not discriminate on gender lines.

That is because drunk drivers (generally) don't target a particular group.

But the common factor is that they are abusers and I dont imagine abusers solely abuse because of the gender of their victim.

Would you put teenage and adult child abusers in the same treatment group? Knowing that some of the teenagers would be susceptible to abuse from some of the other clients and that some of the adult clients would target the teenagers?

Ah yes, but currently its hypothetical because you don't have treatment programmes for females .

Its about anger management -so I suppose there should not be an issue treating handling it on gender lines. Currently it aint happening -only one side of the equation is dealt with.

I do imagine that removing gender from the equation would streamline service delivery and if there is a subgroup then for whom gender is a criteria well maybe micro manage them but as an exception and not as a rule.

You dont handle any other behavioral issue in society on gender lines so why do it here.

So here I think gender is being used as an excuse to avoid action and its not as if experts in the area are not aware of the issues but they choose to ignore it.

Thats why I think the thread wout have been better as the skewed attitudes of abusers of either gender

Exile 1798

Maguined wrote: »

This is a completely different issue about the joking, joking is not about "normalising" abuse just as it is not "normalising" racism, sexism, sextarianism or anything else that we joke about. I have had friends tell the most horribly racist jokes and they are not racist in the slightest, just as nearly every friend that has told me a rape or abuse joke have always been the strongest supporters to instating the death penalty every time we read about some horrible new case in a newspaper.

Sextarianism, I love it!:D

Handsome Bob

amacachi wrote: »

What exactly is loltastic about that?

amacachi wrote: »

Yeah, I'm just wondering why they would laugh about a guy getting slapped for saying he thought he had cancer.

I think the guy was suggesting the other had moobs, hence why the breast cancer comment. Maybe they thought the joke was funny, I personally think it's unoriginal. :pac:

CDfm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I think the guy was suggesting the other had moobs, hence why the breast cancer comment. Maybe they thought the joke was funny, I personally think it's unoriginal. :pac:

Ah but it was a girl doing the slapping and when she told other girls they laughed. :pac:

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think anyone doing anything wrong will overestimate how many other people to it.

As for jokes normalising female violence, no I think that would be like saying GTA normalises killing prostitutes.

goose2005

nouggatti wrote: »

I'd infer from the article that Thead posted that humor/jokes about domestic violence/the role of women justify some men in thinking that it's ok to hit/beat women.

Women in my experience are less likely to have the same sense of humor or to joke about such matters, so are less likely to believe it's ok to do so, whilst in some instances still doing do.

I really don't think that's true, a woman slapping a man is considered universally humorous and justified.

CDfm

goose2005 wrote: »

I really don't think that's true, a woman slapping a man is considered universally humorous and justified.

And there are "empowering "publications like this

The Womans Book of Revenge

http://www.revengelady.com/rules.html

But they arent....................