Do we really owe $1.8 Trillion ?

Demonon

or $18,000,000,000,000

This is Ireland's External Debt.

Or in other words the total money the government, private companies and ordinary citizens of Ireland owe to other country's governments, foreign banks and international banks.

Now I know most of this money is owed by banks to international banks. E.g. Irish citizen borrows €400,000 from AIB to buy house, AIB borrows that €400,000 from international markets, etc. But with the government now getting involved with nationalizing banks they are transferring this debt from private banks to the public.

Basically I am not 100% sure of this subject and created this because I wondering if everything I said there was correct? I'm open to correction, but if this is the case we are in an awful lot more trouble than most people would believe.

lmimmfn

where did you get the figure?

Demonon

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/externaldebt.pdf

That's in euro though. And actually €1.61 trillion is $2 trillion usd, not $1.8 as I said.

Devia

Yeah we're actually the worst in the world in terms of debt to GDP.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959?slide=21

lmimmfn

cheers for the links, all i can say is WOW

having said that though the figure on first glance is more dramatic than it actually is. We've a 1:13 leverage, thats not that insane in the scheme of things

bad2dabone

Devia wrote: »

Yeah we're actually the worst in the world in terms of debt to GDP.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959?slide=21

worst in the world....
or BEST in the world!

we're number 1 at something!!!

oh happy day!

ei.sdraob

@Demonon

we directly owe 82 billion

then there are "schemes" like NAMA which put us on hook for few more if (when) things go wrong

but thats about it (yeh I know, that's still 17,000 per each man woman and child in country)


now the problem is we are adding 20 billion to the above figure per year...


if your interested in info and analysis on irish debt, these article series are interesting

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-01052010-world-debt-1.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-02052010-world-debt-2.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-02052010-world-debt-wish-3.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-4.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-5.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-6.html

Devia

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@Demonon

we directly owe 82 billion

then there are "schemes" like NAMA which put us on hook for few more if (when) things go wrong

but thats about it (yeh I know, that's still 17,000 per each man woman and child in country)

Thats only what the government owes internal lenders. Externally we owe foreign countries $2.32 trillion.

Flamed Diving

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@Demonon

we directly owe 82 billion

then there are "schemes" like NAMA which put us on hook for few more if (when) things go wrong

but thats about it (yeh I know, that's still 17,000 per each man woman and child in country)


now the problem is we are adding 20 billion to the above figure per year...


if your interested in info and analysis on irish debt, these article series are interesting

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-01052010-world-debt-1.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-02052010-world-debt-2.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-02052010-world-debt-wish-3.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-4.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-5.html
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/05/economics-03052010-world-debt-wish-6.html

'Never trust anyone who only reads one book'

- Billy Connolly.

ei.sdraob

Devia wrote: »

the government owes internal lenders. Externally we owe foreign countries $2.32 trillion.

define "we"

Devia wrote: »

Thats only what the government owes

need I remind you where the government gets its money?

Flamed Diving wrote: »

'Never trust anyone who only reads one book'

- Billy Connolly.

Fancy bringing in some stats and figures into the discussion instead of throwaway quotes, oh the wise one?

which part of my earlier post do you have a problem with?
* The figure is right there on the NTMA site of what we owe
* the budget site gives an estimate of how much more we need to borrow this year
* Gurdiev's posts go to great length explaining the difference between the types of debt, private/IFSC/government etc

Devia

ei.sdraob wrote: »

need I remind you where the government gets its money?

No you need not.

The goverment owes 82 billion to Irish citizens which is the figure you provided. They owe $2.32 trillion to other counties (external debt) which is what the OP is talking about.

ei.sdraob

Devia wrote: »

No you need not.

The goverment owes 82 billion to Irish citizens which is the figure you provided. They owe $2.32 trillion to other counties (external debt) which is what the OP is talking about.

the government owes 2.3 trillion? source??

and theres me worried about a dozen billion here, dozen billion there :P

Flamed Diving

ei.sdraob wrote: »

define "we"



need I remind you where the government gets its money?





Fancy bringing in some stats and figures into the discussion instead of throwaway quotes, oh the wise one?

which part of my earlier post do you have a problem with?
* The figure is right there on the NTMA site of what we owe
* the budget site gives an estimate of how much more we need to borrow this year
* Gurdiev's posts go to great length explaining the difference between the types of debt, private/IFSC/government etc

In fairness, if I was looking for a bean burger recipe you would probably link to his blog.

I bet you would think about it.

ei.sdraob

Flamed Diving wrote: »

In fairness, if I was looking for a bean burger recipe you would probably link to his blog.

I bet you would think about it.

Ill be interested on reading any other recent blogs/articles on irish debt breakdown

Devia

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the government owes 2.3 trillion? source??

and theres me worried about a dozen billion here, dozen billion there :P

I posted a link in my first post! Heres the CIA's figures though

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

woodseb

Devia wrote: »

No you need not.

The goverment owes 82 billion to Irish citizens which is the figure you provided. They owe $2.32 trillion to other counties (external debt) which is what the OP is talking about.

I don't think you understand this at all

We (the government, the state, the citizens, Eire) owe 82bln to banks domestically and globally

the 2.32trln figure is what entities based in Ireland owe ie. the numerous banks and brass plate companies domiciled here due our low corporation tax rate

Scarab80

Devia wrote: »

No you need not.

The goverment owes 82 billion to Irish citizens which is the figure you provided. They owe $2.32 trillion to other counties (external debt) which is what the OP is talking about.

Eh, the government is the irish citizens. We/the government currently have a national debt of 82bn, this is made up as follows.....

Ministerial funds -1,060,695 Miscellaneous Debt -64,919 Commercial Paper -13,559,226 Nat Saving Schemes -8,978,298 Private Placements -612,682 EIB Loans -3,333 Other Ir Govt Public Bond Issue 242 Ir Govt Bonds on Irish Exch -81,413,912 Total Borrowing / Repayment -105,692,823

Other Balances 101,874 Other Bank Deposit 1,044,884 Exch Balances 22,670,242 Exchequer Despoits and Other Balances 23,817,000

National Debt -81,875,823

We also have 25bn in the National Pension Reserve but it is pointless to include that figure as we will need all of that and a lot more to pay for our future pension needs.

The $2.32 trillion includes all of the borrowings of companies in the IFSC, as most od the companies there are foreign owned it is not a debt that the irish people need to worry about. The 82bn we do need to worry about.

Dannyboy83

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/05/11/untangling-europes-web-of-debt/

if the Irish government had debts of the guts of a trillion dollars, I’d be the first to be proclaiming the end times.
Because they didn’t look behind their statistics, however, the graphic is about as informative as CNBC’s now infamous unveiling of Ireland as the world’s most indebted country, with debts worth 1300% of GDP! The point that both miss is that you can’t look at debt liabilities without looking at corresponding assets.

The international financial services sector plays such a large role in the Irish economy that it even gets its own set of statistics from the Central Statistics Office. At the end of 2008, the sector had debts of almost €1,650bn. Don’t worry though – it also had assets worth about €1,660bn.
So, what might a revised “Web of Debt” look like? Taking the totals that the NYT used, attributed to the Bank for International Settlements, the graph below corrects them using the percentage of external debt that is government debt, according to the World Bank/BIS Quarterly external debt database. (Incidentally, a good indication of how inexact debt figures are is given by the fact that the World Bank/BIS figures give very different totals than the ones used by the NYT.) The partly-transparent larger circles are the NYT figures, the smaller circles are those figures scaled down to just public debt.

Worth reading Ronan's article imo.