WHAT NEW AIRCRAFT FOR THE AIR CORPS 2010-20, IF ANY?

Avgas

Been in debate with Mr. Conservative on the subject of aircraft and small countries, New Zealand. I copy here a post of his suggesting a way we could sort out our Air Corps...might be of more general interest?

You posts have made me think what would I do if I was able to give my 2 cents worth or whatever you call it over there now since the pence went wherever. Though I am playing with fire here I know, what would I do to sort out the IAC orbat. So without any reference notes and only a cursory knowledge on the topic – and the fact that I’m bored and in a cheeky mood this morning, that I will have a go.
You should get around $13m for the G-IV and about $2m for the B200 based on the used market. They would be gone burgers! You can keep the Lear for MATS – my concession. The Cessnas are to be replaced soonish IIRC. They would only provide change. So what can be done with USD$15 million or Euro12m. Actually not alot. But if there was another Eur75m kicked in from somewhere (Hey basically thats the 150m kiwi we would have spent on keeping F-16’s aloft each year), and that 75m spread over 5 years then that is a realistic amount to play with. Basically finding eur15m p.a. funding towards a total pool of Eur87m. Now you could save that 15m a year from restructuring the army and down sizing it into a leaner meaner version of itself. A regular force based around 3 Battle Groups at its centre should only amount to 7500. The Reserve need only be 3500-4000 again based around 3 Battle Group formations. That should save some money.
So the requirements are for a cessna replacement for basic flight training. Some utility transport and some maritime patrol.
Basic training and observation work is easy. The Diamond DA20 costs about Eur150000. Six up and a simulator for around the million euro mark. From there most air forces jump into aircraft like the PC-9 so no issues.
Now for the big spend based on the recent Portugal proposal two CN-295M’s should get in at around Eur56m with the palletised mission system meaning that it can quick change between troop transport, cargo, SAR, and maritime roles. OK I have just spent57m euros. Now that leaves Eur30m to go.
A couple more EC-135’s should chew up the best part of Eur 11m which leaves just 19m more for the cream.
Three Beechcraft C-90Gti’s for multi-engine conversion and light utility transport, liason and coastwatch back up will chew up a further 9m euro. Which leaves just 10m to go. That should be able to buy a reasonable Boeing 737-400 on the used market for troop transport / additional airlift / VIP.
Second thoughts – I’d sell the Lear then because I notice that IAC provide an old NBI for police work and rough field landings. That should get 2 of the brilliant PAC 750XL’s made by us Kiwi’s. Great for jumps training!
Ive hypothetically sold off your MATS fleet and spent another Eur75m on top spread over 5 years. So what have I ended up with for the IAC.
2 x CASA 295’s, 3 x Beechcraft C-90Gti’s, 1 x Boeing 737-300, 2 x EC-135’s, and 2 x PAC 750XL to add to what you have already got.
All you would need then is some of those plane thingy's with the bolt on whiz bang sticks and you'd really be in business!

Pretty good plan for an off the cuff review?

I'd be interested to hear what others think...?

My own (bizarre) ideas:

Replace 172s with a UAV..no strong preferences what one....I'd leave that a cost/benefit that would emerge in tendering..but we need to get into the UAV business soon...some of these should be explicitly an 'expeditionary' asset.

Approach French for a combined new/second-hand Cougar/Puma deal where 3 new Cougars are leased-to-sale, and in return they provide us with 9 lower hour Puma airframes. Tricky to organize under procurement law-may not be doable. But the French have a way of making EU competition law suit them :rolleyes:. We have 9 reconditioned over a phased 3 year period in job lots, to something like BA standard and plan to have them flying till 2020. Perhaps in 2015 we can buy 3 more Cougars second hand.

Approach Americans (reminding Obama's people there is no-one more Irish before his re-election bid in 2012) and ask for a preferential disposal sale of 10 Orions with best condition airframes (metal fatigue has been a problem). Have these refurbished in batches (if possible partially with Shannon aerospace as part of an offset). We have 6 of them mobilized/operational and the remaining 4 as spare's pool/contingency. Base at Shannon. These should fly safely till 2020-25 (if reconditioned).

Keep the 6xAW139s and 'drip augment' by astute second hand purchases if possible...

Keep the CASAs until no longer economic....

SELL the PC9s to raise revenue..totally brutal but necessary
SELL all/any MATS assets..no mercy...time for radical action.
Keep EC-135s until no longer economic to use, then dispose. Garda Co-op goes to Aw-139.

No info on status of the NB Islander and its special tracking gear..Gardai may want it.....does it work much anyhow? Can be left as is.

Oh the maddest and baddest bit for last......

Convert Casement/Baldonnel into a new charter and business aviation airport for south Dublin and ask Michael O Leary if he might like to offer a few flights from Casement. This would generate rental income and landing fees income for the air corps to sustain operating costs. A second smaller niche airport for Dublin is consistent with managing demand-indeed Eurocontrol advise this approach. Most of the air corps should move to Shannon and Sligo anyhow (sorry guys!)

I await dismemberment.

Steyr

Avgas wrote: »

My own (bizarre) ideas:

Replace 172s with a UAV..no strong preferences what one....I'd leave that a cost/benefit that would emerge in tendering..but we need to get into the UAV business soon...some of these should be explicitly an 'expeditionary' asset.

Approach French for a combined new/second-hand Cougar/Puma deal where 3 new Cougars are leased-to-sale, and in return they provide us with 9 lower hour Puma airframes. Tricky to organize under procurement law-may not be doable. But the French have a way of making EU competition law suit them :rolleyes:. We have 9 reconditioned over a phased 3 year period in job lots, to something like BA standard and plan to have them flying till 2020. Perhaps in 2015 we can buy 3 more Cougars second hand.

Keep the 6xAW139s and 'drip augment' by astute second hand purchases if possible...

Keep the CASAs until no longer economic....

SELL the PC9s to raise revenue..totally brutal but necessary
SELL all/any MATS assets..no mercy...time for radical action.
Keep EC-135s until no longer economic to use, then dispose. Garda Co-op goes to Aw-139.

No info on status of the NB Islander and its special tracking gear..Gardai may want it.....does it work much anyhow? Can be left as is.

Oh the maddest and baddest bit for last......

Convert Casement/Baldonnel into a new charter and business aviation airport for south Dublin and ask Michael O Leary if he might like to offer a few flights from Casement. This would generate rental income and landing fees income for the air corps to sustain operating costs. A second smaller niche airport for Dublin is consistent with managing demand-indeed Eurocontrol advise this approach. Most of the air corps should move to Shannon and Sligo anyhow (sorry guys!)

I await dismemberment.

Careful now your talking sense Sir.

Steyr

In regards to IAC dispersing id rather them at EINN and EICK.

Zambia

Is their a remote chance that the Air corp might be equipped with a Fighter jet or two ?

MrConservative

Zambia232 wrote: »

Is their a remote chance that the Air corp might be equipped with a Fighter jet or two ?

Simply No. Not even a remote chance. And I know sweet fa about the IAC.

Firstly what on earth would it be used for. A "fighter jet" is used for the air defence and air superiority roles. That is not a role the IDF requires anytime soon.

Having one or two would not make sense. "Fighters" hunt in pairs or flights of 4 depending on the circumstances. Thus if the Irish needed "fighters" they would need at least a squadron.

If the question was rephrased "air combat capability" that would depend on a number of factors yet unknown. For instance if **** loads of oil was found of the West Coast or that it was politically decided that a deployed Battle Group of Irish troops needed their own CAS support. An "air combat capability" does not mean F-18E shornets either.

MrConservative

Avgas wrote: »

Been in debate with Mr. Conservative on the subject of aircraft and small countries, New Zealand. I copy here a post of his suggesting a way we could sort out our Air Corps...might be of more general interest?

Your posts have made me think what would I do if I was able to give my 2 cents worth or whatever you call it over there now since the pence went wherever. Though I am playing with fire here I know, what would I do to sort out the IAC orbat. So without any reference notes and only a cursory knowledge on the topic – and the fact that I’m bored and in a cheeky mood this morning, that I will have a go.
You should get around $13m for the G-IV and about $2m for the B200 based on the used market. They would be gone burgers! You can keep the Lear for MATS – my concession. The Cessnas are to be replaced soonish IIRC. They would only provide change. So what can be done with USD$15 million or Euro12m. Actually not alot. But if there was another Eur75m kicked in from somewhere (Hey basically thats the 150m kiwi we would have spent on keeping F-16’s aloft each year), and that 75m spread over 5 years then that is a realistic amount to play with. Basically finding eur15m p.a. funding towards a total pool of Eur87m. Now you could save that 15m a year from restructuring the army and down sizing it into a leaner meaner version of itself. A regular force based around 3 Battle Groups at its centre should only amount to 7500. The Reserve need only be 3500-4000 again based around 3 Battle Group formations. That should save some money.
So the requirements are for a cessna replacement for basic flight training. Some utility transport and some maritime patrol.
Basic training and observation work is easy. The Diamond DA20 costs about Eur150000. Six up and a simulator for around the million euro mark. From there most air forces jump into aircraft like the PC-9 so no issues.
Now for the big spend based on the recent Portugal proposal two CN-295M’s should get in at around Eur56m with the palletised mission system meaning that it can quick change between troop transport, cargo, SAR, and maritime roles. OK I have just spent57m euros. Now that leaves Eur30m to go.
A couple more EC-135’s should chew up the best part of Eur 11m which leaves just 19m more for the cream.
Three Beechcraft C-90Gti’s for multi-engine conversion and light utility transport, liason and coastwatch back up will chew up a further 9m euro. Which leaves just 10m to go. That should be able to buy a reasonable Boeing 737-400 on the used market for troop transport / additional airlift / VIP.
Second thoughts – I’d sell the Lear then because I notice that IAC provide an old NBI for police work and rough field landings. That should get 2 of the brilliant PAC 750XL’s made by us Kiwi’s. Great for jumps training!
Ive hypothetically sold off your MATS fleet and spent another Eur75m on top spread over 5 years. So what have I ended up with for the IAC.
2 x CASA 295’s, 3 x Beechcraft C-90Gti’s, 1 x Boeing 737-300, 2 x EC-135’s, and 2 x PAC 750XL to add to what you have already got.
All you would need then is some of those plane thingy's with the bolt on whiz bang sticks and you'd really be in business!

Pretty good plan for an off the cuff review?

I'd be interested to hear what others think...?

My own (bizarre) ideas:

Replace 172s with a UAV..no strong preferences what one....I'd leave that a cost/benefit that would emerge in tendering..but we need to get into the UAV business soon...some of these should be explicitly an 'expeditionary' asset.

Approach French for a combined new/second-hand Cougar/Puma deal where 3 new Cougars are leased-to-sale, and in return they provide us with 9 lower hour Puma airframes. Tricky to organize under procurement law-may not be doable. But the French have a way of making EU competition law suit them :rolleyes:. We have 9 reconditioned over a phased 3 year period in job lots, to something like BA standard and plan to have them flying till 2020. Perhaps in 2015 we can buy 3 more Cougars second hand.

Approach Americans (reminding Obama's people there is no-one more Irish before his re-election bid in 2012) and ask for a preferential disposal sale of 10 Orions with best condition airframes (metal fatigue has been a problem). Have these refurbished in batches (if possible partially with Shannon aerospace as part of an offset). We have 6 of them mobilized/operational and the remaining 4 as spare's pool/contingency. Base at Shannon. These should fly safely till 2020-25 (if reconditioned).

Keep the 6xAW139s and 'drip augment' by astute second hand purchases if possible...

Keep the CASAs until no longer economic....

SELL the PC9s to raise revenue..totally brutal but necessary
SELL all/any MATS assets..no mercy...time for radical action.
Keep EC-135s until no longer economic to use, then dispose. Garda Co-op goes to Aw-139.

No info on status of the NB Islander and its special tracking gear..Gardai may want it.....does it work much anyhow? Can be left as is.

Oh the maddest and baddest bit for last......

Convert Casement/Baldonnel into a new charter and business aviation airport for south Dublin and ask Michael O Leary if he might like to offer a few flights from Casement. This would generate rental income and landing fees income for the air corps to sustain operating costs. A second smaller niche airport for Dublin is consistent with managing demand-indeed Eurocontrol advise this approach. Most of the air corps should move to Shannon and Sligo anyhow (sorry guys!)

I await dismemberment.

Some questions Avgas.

Where is the transport capability that Ireland needs. Lositical movement is a fundamental to a modern military?

What are you going to do about advanced training if you want the PC-9's to go?

Also what is going to be the elementary flight trainer when the Cessna's retire?

Some Observations.

Personally I would leave the Puma out of it. They stopped production nearly 25 years ago. Were horrendously expensive to operate on a per hour basis. If you want a cheap and cheerful, tough and proven utility chopper go for the Huey II.

The Cougar is fine for now however I should point out that three Cougars will chew up nearly Eur50m. So with our theoretical 75m plus the 12m from flogging off the MATS there is not much change left. You could fall back on the Huey again.

As for the UAV's I can see your point. It is indeed a good one. However when you say expeditionary you are meaning a Recon and weapon delivery system on board I take it? For that you are talking millions per system once satlinks and deployable ground stations are involved. One could get simple Recon/Intell UAV's to monitor cash deliveries that work above the skies of Ireland, they need not be so sophisticated using the CROWS system. On the other hand a UAV can do the Maritime Patrol role well if roled for recon/detection and the 2 CASA's follow up with response and contingency. It does not have to be a mega buck RQ-4 as smaller maritime MALE's are being developed that are role specific and dont cost the earth. Singapore was looking at a maritime Scan Eagle a few months ago. Also one ship board Fire Scout system is around the Eur12m mark. Would transform the OPV's in their role with rotary onboard.




The ball is now in your court or others to nut this little problem out.

punchdrunk

a few S-61T's would make sense as you have air corps pilots already rated on it
plus they're going to be reasonably cheap in comparison

http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/military/attack/67821.html

cost about twelve million euro each

Avgas

Well ……er…my plan was rather Spartan…from a working assumption that we are borderline Greece in economic terms… ……it cannot be anything else .....so you adjust your expectations according to your (dire) means………

Re lack of transport:
Of course your right Mr. Conservative. It would be lovely to have dedicated transport assets to support overseas PK missions. Austria bought Hercs a few years back as they found it necessary….
BUT I was thinking simply we can’t afford it. We may not be able to afford to participate much in any PK mission for the next 3 years or so anyway!
YET if we do, we either commercially charter one of those Big Russian Antonovs (we’ve done it before)….or we ask/beg some-else to lift our assets (which has been done before)….also shipping heavier stuff by sea is more where its at in terms of cost benefit-that is what we used for Liberia and also Chad….so I don’t think it is a "necessary spend"…we’ve deployed whole battalions before without it….far from ideal…but we can do so again.
My only concession on transport aircraft would be the quite wacky suggestion of using small tactical STOL (or borderline STOL) transports (like PC-12, Cessna Caravans, or PC-6s) to support ultra light infantry patrols in a PK/COIN context with para dropped supplies and overwatch...but I'm saving that lunacy for another post on light infantry concepts....:)

I suppose….if you really think transport capability is vital.....

We could switch the Orion ASK from Obama to a C-130E/H ASK and spend some money getting them done up…..US have apparently some 120+ in storage...but I guess many are in a poor state.....they would have no equipment for baseline Maritime Patrol…you need a v. good FLIR and some kind of radar…on the plus side....you could use the rear ramp door as an improvised means of dropping various light stores……once again I don’t have detailed knowledge of airframes….have to be careful your not buying junk with just a year or two of safe flying time…..you would have to spend several million per aircraft to have them reconditioned and returned to a reasonable hours level……

A big problem might be do we have the hanger space for such aircraft in numbers?

Re: absence of basic pilot training
Basic pilot training can be outsourced to commercial outfits…or better still send them abroad to a foreign friendly military…could be Sweden, France…and why not USAF…or US Army/USMC… US Navy? These bodies may agree to provide such training for a discount….. Our future pilots would have great exposure in these contexts to ‘state of the art’ practices and equipment that we can never provide/afford.

UAVS
UAVs; what I had in mind was a simple enough 2nd gen stype of tactical UAV that would give an Irish PK battalion OC a tactical overview assets which he (she?) owned. You would need at least 3 to provide such a service. Something like the SCANEAGLE was what I had in mind. I would not bother with giving it a capability to carry weapons…not that I’m being wimpy or anything…just cost constraints. You would hand off target imagery/tracks to assigned (French? )CAS packages on standby (assuming their not playing boules and drinking pastis :rolleyes:)….. I would spend rather more on the optical-photo imagery payload…especially something optimized for road/IED activity monitoring….others here would know a lot more than me about what this kit should be.
Could be that you negotiate for second hand French UAVs...???

CHOPPERS
I don't really care what choppers we get.. I mean I'm they guy that would sign for Polish Sokols or Mi-17s tomorrow......but it needs to be robust enough to handle maritime operations, it needs endurance therefore, and should be capable of deployment overseas (at least in theory). Americans have a quantity (160+) of Iroquis UH-1s in storage in various marks and conditions...but I think this chopper would be not robust enough for our maritime orientation......I'm open to correction.. but again to bring these up to USMC UN-1Y standard say would cost a bit of money......
Punchdrunk's suggestion of S61s is sounder, but I had always assumed these airframes are all clapped out and there is no 'mileage' left in them? Equally a generation of surplus clapped-out Sea Kings will be floating around..as Merlins and NH90s and S92 slowly are phased in various places.....but surely their condition must be v.ropy? If some company was doing a cost effective rebuild/return to economic hours reconditioning such would be attractive.

All of this is dobale, but given the way Irish government (doesn't) works it is most likely...PURE WALT I fear......or....maybe just one idea here would be implementable both in fiscal and technical sense...

punchdrunk

the S-61T is a rebuild of old US surplus seakings done by carson helicopters and Sikorsky
I'm open to correction on this but as far as I know the airframe is returned to zero hours,basically it's a new helicopter it's also faster and has greater range than the old seaking

Avgas

I actually only read the link you had included on the S61T....after I posted...cough embaressment:o.....Yep it seems a really good deal....I've always thought we should have bought a dozen or more Sea Kings in the 1970s-80s.....

airvan

Mr Conservative:

That should get 2 of the brilliant PAC 750XL’s made by us Kiwi’s. Great for jumps training!

You had to get a sales pitch in LOL . No they should get the Aussie made.......ahem Airvan. The turbine version when they finally get around to making it.

Also what is going to be the elementary flight trainer when the Cessna's retire?

Believe it or not the Cessna is not and never was the elementary flight trainer. It's usually the first operational aircraft fixed wing pilots end up on after elementary and advanced training on the PC9. What a step down that must be?

The PC9s are overkill for elementary training and must be daunting to new cadets. As for advanced training, what's the point? Some cadets finish on the PC9 and go to Cessnas, others go to basic helicopter training. All that's really needed is an elementary trainer followed by advanced training on a twin like the King Air as was or onto the EC135s to learn to fly helicopters. The PC9s were a foolish buy. In fact part of the reason they were bought was to aid retention among pilots during the boom times. I think the government in their ignorance were suckered into believing they were actually of some military use.

Really the Air Corps needs to go all helicopter with maybe a few light aircraft. Everything else can be outsourced including fishery protection which can go to the Coastguard and be contracted out like in the UK. MATs can be replaced by hiring in jets when needed as can helicopter VIP. Also it needs to lose those silly blue uniforms and go back green to the army with internal recruitment of NCO and officer pilots. The Garda choppers should be flown by civilians and run by the GARDAI themselves.

The Air Corps needs to re-invent itself as the Army Air Corps.

MrConservative

airvan wrote: »

Mr Conservative:You had to get a sales pitch in LOL . No they should get the Aussie made.......ahem Airvan. The turbine version when they finally get around to making it.

Believe it or not the Cessna is not and never was the elementary flight trainer. It's usually the first operational aircraft fixed wing pilots end up on after elementary and advanced training on the PC9. What a step down that must be?

The PC9s are overkill for elementary training and must be daunting to new cadets. As for advanced training, what's the point? Some cadets finish on the PC9 and go to Cessnas, others go to basic helicopter training. All that's really needed is an elementary trainer followed by advanced training on a twin like the King Air as was or onto the EC135s to learn to fly helicopters. The PC9s were a foolish buy. In fact part of the reason they were bought was to aid retention among pilots during the boom times. I think the government in their ignorance were suckered into believing they were actually of some military use.

Really the Air Corps needs to go all helicopter with maybe a few light aircraft. Everything else can be outsourced including fishery protection which can go to the Coastguard and be contracted out like in the UK. MATs can be replaced by hiring in jets when needed as can helicopter VIP. Also it needs to lose those silly blue uniforms and go back green to the army with internal recruitment of NCO and officer pilots. The Garda choppers should be flown by civilians and run by the GARDAI themselves.

The Air Corps needs to re-invent itself as the Army Air Corps.

Heaven forbid. They start out on the PC-9 and once winged are on to Cessna 172's!! I just logically assumed that it would be the other way round.

However. Using good pre-selection including evaluation time on a modern simulator which no doubt you have and again I assume, you can jump pilot trainees straight from civve street into PC-9's as an elementary trainer and transition them to the advanced training stage on the PC-9.

Developmentally for the pilot is probably not going to provide as great as depth as the traditional pilot trainee progression, however it does get results. Possibly in current cash strapped Ireland its all you require. From there it is really only the CASA to deal with regarding fixed wing. (After all we all agree that the MATS jests must go.)

Turning to the Cessna's if a big part of their role is to shadow cash transfers then yeah - out source it.

By the way. Is the economy really that tanked or is it something that can get sorted out and turning around?

One of the big ideas that defense and policy officials down in our part of the world attempt to educate the public and media on these days is the subtle and yet significant connection to defence being part of the toolkit in economic and trade development. This was something we did not do well back in the bad old days of razor cuts to our defence forces. Both NZ and Australia use their defence forces proactively in the pursuit of economic, trade and diplomatic goals albeit each in different ways.

Yes I agree that the Police would operate better if its air ops were under their own command and control. Again thats normal everywhere else i can think of. They should be the ones who buy, fly em and flog em.

Looking at your PC-9's it is a shame you guys never got the full monty version that could actually be light strike capable and undertake CAS. There is a world shortage of prop CAS types. So much so the USAF wants to be back in the light airstrike business.

airvan

By the way. Is the economy really that tanked or is it something that can get sorted out and turning around?

Yes it's tanked, the government has to borrow money to meet the public service salaries, including the military. It will recover but the good times are gone such as they were. You will soon be seeing plenty of Paddies in your neck of the woods.

MrConservative

airvan wrote: »

Yes it's tanked, the government has to borrow money to meet the public service salaries, including the military. It will recover but the good times are gone such as they were. You will soon be seeing plenty of Paddies in your neck of the woods.

Yes. We have seen a fair lot of Brits head our way in the last few years, many into the armed forces, mostly into the RNZN and RNZAF. The police have done well also. I'm pretty certain then if the rules were changed to allow ex Irish Defence Force folk it would not be that good for your services. Defence is one of those few areas in government that is not going to get a buzzcut. It may get a small increase to cover one or two capability gaps. Thankfully no programmes to be cut. We are going to selling around 25% of our NZLAVIII's which is very sensible. We only needed enough for a motorised battalion and a Rece Squadron as we have around 60 of the Armoured Pinzies. Around 40 LAV's have been garage queens for the last 6 years. The last government probably wasted around NZ$200 million buying the extra LAV's it did not need and were told it did not need. They tried to argue that it could then not afford to fund the F-16's. The first 5 years of their lease were to cost NZ$237m. We will never get over the betrayl. I personally will never forgive that government for it. One thing worse than not having money is to have it and then have it wasted by stupidity. You know the feeling well I guess after your rocky ride economically over the past 18 months. I hope it sorts itself out quickly.

Avgas

This is way off OP...but...ya know.....

Kiwi LAVs to be sold?

What sort of money might you raise and who might be a possible buyer?

The remaining 60 LAVIIIs ...will they be updated any?
US are adding lots of stuff to new Stryker A1...including proper V shaped hull...bigger EFP belly plate...other stuff.. Canadians are also re-working their LAVs......what sort of extras have you looked at...slat armour/DAS?
(obviously without giving too much away!:))

MrConservative

Avgas wrote: »

This is way off OP...but...ya know.....

Kiwi LAVs to be sold?

What sort of money might you raise and who might be a possible buyer?

The remaining 60 LAVIIIs ...will they be updated any?
US are adding lots of stuff to new Stryker A1...including proper V shaped hull...bigger EFP belly plate...other stuff.. Canadians are also re-working their LAVs......what sort of extras have you looked at...slat armour/DAS?
(obviously without giving too much away!:))

There has been some chatter about doing an equipment swap with the US Army or Marine Corp. ICRW? They have a need for virtually new LAV's and have an excess of what we need. Can't remember the details as actually I am not in NZ at present and wont be back for some months, and have no authoritive sources I can check with. Nothing is planned for our LAV's in terms of upgrades, however following our White Paper due in September their might be more details. My gut feeling is not likely anything to be honest.

Back to the IAC. If the Cessna's tasks are outsourced, training continues in the PC-9's, the police take over the EC-135's and the NBI that are currently tasked for them and the MATS aircraft are sold. The starting point for rebuilding the IAC would be 2 CASA's, 6 AW-139's, 7 PC-9's, 2 EC-135's and around Eur20m cash following the MATS sale.

The thing is that the IAC could be at risk of being rationalised into extinction by politicians. For example the Australians have outsourced their coastwatch role to Coastwatch Australia who use six Q Series Bombardier's. The Singaporeans outsource alot of their flight training. All that would be left are the 8 helicopters which the army could take over and as they are essentially domestic birds and not deployed so there would be no need to retain an indigenous M&S establishment, thus again that would be outsourced to Ryan Air or someone who has engineering facilities. The current fixed wing fleet sold off and any IAC land would would logically then be sold especially the Don. That would be a prime bit of real estate for the Govt to flog off. Thus there would be 850 folk surplus to requirements. A nightmare scenario really.:(

Can someone give a reason why this is not going to happen. Is there something I have not considered because I would hate to see decades of institutional know how go down the toilet. I have seen that happen and would not wish it on anyone.

OS119

MrConservative wrote: »

Can someone give a reason why this is not going to happen. Is there something I have not considered because I would hate to see decades of institutional know how go down the toilet. I have seen that happen and would not wish it on anyone.

i don't think there is a reason - the leadership and culture of the IAC have deliberately made themselves into a 9-til-5, non-deployable organisation which, by and large, doesn't do anything that any commercial aircraft operator - CHC for instance - doesn't do on a day-to-day basis.

why?

because they wanted a comfortable, Dublin based, quiet life that would prepare them for a lucrative job in the commercial sector, and they failed to imagine that somebody would, at some stage, say 'hang on, doesn't the IAC look like CHC but with more management layers and bigger pensions?'.

only one organisation went out of its way to remove Ship-borne operations from the IAC's catalogue of capabilities, only one organisation persuaded ministers that the utterly irrelevent PC-9M would be a better fit in Irelands' military doctrine than Medium Lift Helicopters, or additional CASA-235 Maritime Patrol Aircraft, or continues to lobby on behalf of the stitch-up that means that only IAC aircrew are allowed to fly any state aircraft, regardless of that aircrafts function.

that organisation feathered it own nest at the expense of Irelands' military capability, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

PeakOutput

the only thing im familiar with is skydiving and there are better aircraft then both the airvan and the pac for that

the golden knights recently got two new de havilland super otters to add to their fleet

airvan

Well yes there are any number of aircraft suitable aircraft for skydiving but the Cessna's role is more varied so an aircraft that can be used for skydiving is desirable. It won't be it's sole raison d'etre. In fact the Air Corps use the helicopters and sometimes the Casa for parachuting these days. In fact realistically a small transport aircraft would be best for their purposes.

I tend to agree with OS119 in his assessment of the Air Corps. The term 'Best flying club in Ireland' has been used, somewhat unfairly in the past. Mr Conservative's view is that it would be the death knell of the Air Corps. I agree but only in it's present form. It really needs to invent itself as a realistic operational military air wing of the defence forces instead of a para-military version of the civil service. The Don won't be sold, it's worth nothing in the current market anyway but would be better used as an extensive base for all Dublin units, closing the last of the city centre 18th and 19th century barracks and selling them makes more sense.

The defence forces need an Air Corps just not the one we have right now.

MrConservative

airvan wrote: »

Well yes there are any number of aircraft suitable aircraft for skydiving but the Cessna's role is more varied so an aircraft that can be used for skydiving is desirable. It won't be it's sole raison d'etre. In fact the Air Corps use the helicopters and sometimes the Casa for parachuting these days. In fact realistically a small transport aircraft would be best for their purposes.

I tend to agree with OS119 in his assessment of the Air Corps. The term 'Best flying club in Ireland' has been used, somewhat unfairly in the past. Mr Conservative's view is that it would be the death knell of the Air Corps. I agree but only in it's present form. It really needs to invent itself as a realistic operational military air wing of the defence forces instead of a para-military version of the civil service. The Don won't be sold, it's worth nothing in the current market anyway but would be better used as an extensive base for all Dublin units, closing the last of the city centre 18th and 19th century barracks and selling them makes more sense.

The defence forces need an Air Corps just not the one we have right now.

Yep that makes sense. Sell the more valuable inner city locations and centralise all IDF units at the Don. I'm not much chop at your local property market. Only thing was I could not believe the prices when I was last in Dublin back in December 2004. For a pokey townhouse you guys were paying the sort of money that gets a 4 Bedroom house on a 800sqm plot with a pool in a better Auckland suburb. I thought what really underpins the economy was that you guys rely on milking cows and fleecing tourists just like us.:D Sorry to head off topic about this but i thought it was a bit of a frenzy this property thing you had going. I bet that wont happen again in a hurry.

BostonB

OS119 wrote: »

....utterly irrelevent PC-9M .....

Couldn't agree more.

The Air Corps needs to be useful beyond the narrow scope of military operations. Thats Search and Rescue, Maritime Patrol, some transport ability and some security capability. Otherwise its seen as superfluous.

Morpheus

What would be required to upgrade the PC9ms to even a COIN role - something we COULD use here with our history of homegrown terrorists??

Ive seen them fire the FFARs and 50's on targets at gormanston and they were quite impressive to watch...

BostonB

Impressive maybe. Needed no.

OS119

Morphéus wrote: »

What would be required to upgrade the PC9ms to even a COIN role - something we COULD use here with our history of homegrown terrorists??

Ive seen them fire the FFARs and 50's on targets at gormanston and they were quite impressive to watch...

i think they could be useful relatively quickly - an awful lot of the systems a COIN aircraft needs are available as bolt-ons/external stores.

if the RAF could retro-fit its Nimrod MR1's to carry AIM-9Ls over a long weekend for action in the Falklands, and the Argentine Army could rig up an Air-launched Exocet missile to fire off the back of a truck in the middle of a South Atlantic winter then the IAC could source and fit the neccesary systems (Radar Warning Receiver, chaff/flare dispensers, Sniper ATP ISTAR pod, and AGM-114M HellfireII and GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (a 500lb GPS guided weapon)) if it got its finger out.

imagine the increase of capability if the Irish PK force in Chad had been able to use PC-9M's in a reconaisance and overwatch role - a vastly greater area could have been secured by aircraft dripping in fuel tanks and with a real-time downloadable ISR capability.

but no, they were in Ireland training pilots to ferry politicians to marginal constituancies - err... i mean areas in need of regeneration - so they could have the weekend off...

BostonB, you are of course correct, its a dumb asset bought for dumb reasons, and in any sentient state they'd never have been touched - however, the IAC has got them and with a little work, a bit of cash (and possibly the shooting of half the IAC pour encourager les autres) it could be made into something useful. not perhaps as useful as other things for the same money, but a useful capability nonetheless.