Im in the dock tomorrow...Update from jan.

fortuneteller

Hi, Everybody.
I posted in jan that i had failed to pay a fixed penalty for speeding....Well i went to court [on my own] in january and got a horrible grumpy old judge.who ignored me when i explaned that i didnt recieve any fixed pen. notice and convicted me for speeding,Giving me 300 fine and 4 points,much to the Garda`s delight......Well after throwing the highland fling on brunswick street much to the amusement of passing motorists,i decided to contact a solictor..They said you have nothing to loose by appealing can`t get more than 4 points and they prob wont increase the fine....
So....Today was the day of the appeal. new district court and i was nervous as hell..BUT no need..... six guys got up before me.Six told the same story and all walked free.... so... up i went told my story,,,never recieved it judge and ....She frowned for the 7th time and said ok..... i`ll take your word for it...Garda sook his head and that was that...;)

Morlar

Just out of curiosity what did the solicitor & day off work cost you ?

fortuneteller

:P

Morlar wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what did the solicitor & day off work cost you ?

Nothing.i didnt get a solictor,, and got up early did a few airport runs and was only in court one hour,,10am to 11am when work is dead anyway.......:cool: Oh ya! parking cost me 2.50euro.

yayamark

Ill post here in a while

Just climbing up on my high horse at the monent ... really long climb....

cormie

So does this mean you got off the points and the 300eur fine?

mondeo

Well done lad, my cousin did the same thing 2 years back. He genuinely did not get a fixed penalty notice and the judge the first time round convicted him and gave him 4 points, however he appealed it and got off.

They CANNOT convict you if they have no proof of you receiving the fine! How can they? It would be corrupt if they did as they had no proof... Some people here would say just take the fine and forget about it but I wouldn't. You have to be persistent if you feel your innocent so feck them and let the Garda have his tantrum.

Safe driving lad

cormie

mondeo wrote: »

Well done lad, my cousin did the same thing 2 years back. He genuinely did not get a fixed penalty notice and the judge the first time round convicted him and gave him 4 points, however he appealed it and got off.

They CANNOT convict you if they have no proof of you receiving the fine! How can they? It would be corrupt if they did as they had no proof...

Registered letter is the only proof or hand delivered by the Gardai themselves right? As far as I know, speeding fines aren't delivered by registered letter so anyone could do it and get off?

mondeo

cormie wrote: »

Registered letter is the only proof or hand delivered by the Gardai themselves right? As far as I know, speeding fines aren't delivered by registered letter so anyone could do it and get off?

Their not delivered by registered mail unless that has changed in recent years.. I certainly did not get my by registered post nor hand delivered by the Garda.

mondeo

cormie wrote: »

So does this mean you got off the points and the 300eur fine?

His appeal was a success so yes

molloyjazz

mondeo wrote: »

His appeal was a success so yes

the judge said..'ok.. ill take your word for it'

Dardania

Were you speeding?

smcgiff

Dardania wrote: »

Were you speeding?

Ah now... the police wouldn't ask you that!

Cookie_Monster

smcgiff wrote: »

Ah now... the police wouldn't ask you that!

but that judge should!

H8GHOTI

Did you not have to pay the original €60 (is it?) & get just the 2 points? Just like you would if you did get the fine in the post.

fortuneteller

cormie wrote: »

So does this mean you got off the points and the 300eur fine?

Yes lad, scott free

JHMEG

cormie wrote: »

Registered letter is the only proof

Registered letter is only proof it was delivered, not that it was delivered to the adressee.

cormie wrote: »

or hand delivered by the Gardai themselves right?

Only sure fire way.

Fair play, you would think they'd still hit you for the 2 points and normal fine though, no harm that they didn't but it's a bit f**ktarded that they don't.

I.S.T.

I don't understand why they don't send it by register post. Are they too cheap to pay the extra postage cost?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Well OP you really showed the system who is boss there :rolleyes:. Sure wasting the courts time is grand, and keeping a Garda off the street twice is fine, and the person doing paperwork in the court and court clerks, sure they have nothing better to do anyway.

In fact your so smart, I bet you bought ten flats in budapest in 2005? When your taxi get hit by a uninsured driver I hope you dont mind them appealing to the courts, wasting everyones times and costing you a fortune.

Its this cute whore irish attitude that boils my blood....rant over

Voodoomelon

Hardly.
Imagine you suddenly got a court summons for not paying a speeding fine you never knew about.

Well done OP.

danbohan

Eliseo Narrow Bullfighting wrote: »

Well OP you really showed the system who is boss there :rolleyes:. Sure wasting the courts time is grand, and keeping a Garda off the street twice is fine, and the person doing paperwork in the court and court clerks, sure they have nothing better to do anyway.

In fact your so smart, I bet you bought ten flats in budapest in 2005? When your taxi get hit by a uninsured driver I hope you dont mind them appealing to the courts, wasting everyones times and costing you a fortune.

Its this cute whore irish attitude that boils my blood....rant over

so why dont you take your rant to minster of justice and get the guards to issue summons by registered letter , this has been going on for years now , it just shows the incapacity of the public service to adjust or to bother, ogh and buy the way if you bought 10 apts in budapest in 2005 and sold them in 2006 you d be a very cute whore indeed!

Mr Jinx

There was a circuit court ruling a while back that ruled that the prosecution did not have to prove that the original fine was delivered or received by the defendant, only that the fine was posted.

I.S.T.

Eliseo Narrow Bullfighting wrote: »

Well OP you really showed the system who is boss there :rolleyes:. Sure wasting the courts time is grand, and keeping a Garda off the street twice is fine, and the person doing paperwork in the court and court clerks, sure they have nothing better to do anyway.

In fact your so smart, I bet you bought ten flats in budapest in 2005? When your taxi get hit by a uninsured driver I hope you dont mind them appealing to the courts, wasting everyones times and costing you a fortune.

Its this cute whore irish attitude that boils my blood....rant over

He didn't get the fine in the post. They should have sent it by register letter. Their fault. There is a concept in this country called innocent until proven guilty. If they sent it by register post they could prove if he was guiilty. They were too cheap to pay the extra postage cost so they lose. It's rediculous they can't even get a process this simple in place

MojoMaker

There is also the concept of Bull**** and thumbing one at 'the man'.

We could all say we never received the fine and based on this appeal be very confident now of countering the argument in court and getting the case thrown out. Which means some of the disincentive for speeding has largely been cancelled out. Great step forward that.

Gophur

Well done OP, good to see incompetence being punished. Too often the authorities ride rough-shod over the ordinary person.

As for the moral-high brigade?

opinion guy

Eliseo Narrow Bullfighting wrote: »

Its this cute whore irish attitude that boils my blood....rant over

Is a cute whore anything like a cute hoor or is it merely an attractive prostitute ????

Esel

Judge: Were you or were you not riding the whore?

Defendant: Yes, Judge, but she was cute!

Judge: Case dismissed. Go on, ya boy ya!

unkel

Only in Ireland, wha?

If you don't send a letter by registered post, you will not have proof that your letter was delivered. If you don't have that proof, then the person can't be held responsible for acting on the letter (as in paying a fine)

Pique

unkel wrote: »

If you don't send a letter by registered post, you will not have proof that your letter was delivered. If you don't have that proof, then the person can't be held responsible for acting on the letter (as in paying a fine)

Fair enough methinks, or else everyone could legitimately claim to have sent you a bill and then sue you for not paying what you never received, looking for extra on top for having to sue you.

Why not inform the person that they owe X amount and be done with it?

Maybe the Garda Reserve could be employed to do the deliveries ?

eringobragh

Fair play OP,

Surely they could easily add an extra 5 euro to the existing speeding fine and prove once and or all it was indeed delivered.

opinion guy

unkel wrote: »

Only in Ireland, wha?

If you don't send a letter by registered post, you will not have proof that your letter was delivered. If you don't have that proof, then the person can't be held responsible for acting on the letter (as in paying a fine)

This makes no sense

The Nutty M

opinion guy wrote: »

This makes no sense

If you read it again maybe the penny might drop from the top of the eiffel tower:rolleyes:

testicle

Surely an appeal of a District Court conviction should have been in the Circuit Court?

CR 7

eringobragh wrote: »

Fair play OP,

Surely they could easily add an extra 5 euro to the existing speeding fine and prove once and or all it was indeed delivered.

I'm not sure of the figures, but is it likely that the cost of registering the letters would even be balanced out by the amount of fines unpaid because of not being delivered, as well as the time wasted in court?

The problem is, a lot of people might not be home when the postman arrives, or even might not answer the door if they're expecting the letter.

daveharnett

Sorry, I still don't understand how the charge of speeding could have been overturned. OP, what exactly did you appeal - the increased sanction or the original offence?

opinion guy

unkel wrote: »

Only in Ireland, wha?

If you don't send a letter by registered post, you will not have proof that your letter was delivered. If you don't have that proof, then the person can't be held responsible for acting on the letter (as in paying a fine)

The Nutty M wrote: »

If you read it again maybe the penny might drop from the top of the eiffel tower:rolleyes:

No it still doesn't make sense no matter how many times i read it. It shoudl say:

If you don't have that proof, then the person can't be held responsible for NOT acting on the letter"

Not that I mean to be a grammar nazi. I just found it very confusing to read. But I think thats what unkel meant

MagicSean

danbohan wrote: »

so why dont you take your rant to minster of justice and get the guards to issue summons by registered letter , this has been going on for years now , it just shows the incapacity of the public service to adjust or to bother, ogh and buy the way if you bought 10 apts in budapest in 2005 and sold them in 2006 you d be a very cute whore indeed!

Its not the summons that wasn't delivered it was the fine. These are not sent out by a garda but by the fixed charge penalty office which is mostly civilian.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

He didn't get the fine in the post. They should have sent it by register letter. Their fault. There is a concept in this country called innocent until proven guilty. If they sent it by register post they could prove if he was guiilty. They were too cheap to pay the extra postage cost so they lose. It's rediculous they can't even get a process this simple in place

There is also a concept in civil law known as the postal rule which says that if a person can prove they posted something that is proof of delivery. Its only used in contract law at the moment. In any case even if the fine wasn't received the original penalty for the offence should have stood.

MojoMaker wrote: »

There is also the concept of Bull**** and thumbing one at 'the man'.

We could all say we never received the fine and based on this appeal be very confident now of countering the argument in court and getting the case thrown out. Which means some of the disincentive for speeding has largely been cancelled out. Great step forward that.

In most cases like this I've seen the judge will just apply the original fine and points. However I have heard anecdotal evidence of a judge in dublin who has a dislike of the fixed charge penalty system due to the errors that have been attributed to it so this may explain what happened in the ops case.

Blitzkrieger

Eliseo Narrow Bullfighting wrote: »

Its this cute whore irish attitude that boils my blood....rant over

I'm so close to a ban for personal abuse........

Seriously Eliseo Narrow Bullfighting - that's a ridiculous attitude. As it stands, the law is in fact, unconstitutional. As it stands if you appeal a speeding conviction and fail, your fine in increased and your penalty points doubled. It's unethical and unconstitutional to punish people for appealing a conviction. What about people who are genuinely innocent?

In this particular case, the OP said he would have paid the speeding fine if he had received it. No disrespect to An Post, but I'm sure mistakes do happen and letters get lost or delivered to the wrong address. Why should the OP then be punished for other peoples mistakes.

I'd love to see how long you'd stay on that high horse if you were the one getting screwed over.....

JHMEG

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

It's unethical and unconstitutional to punish people for appealing a conviction. What about people who are genuinely innocent?

People who are genuinely innocent will have their cases dismissed upon appeal. In an attempt to discourage shenanigans people who are not innocent will have their punishment doubled for trying to get off.

That's the theory anyway.

fortuneteller

daveharnett wrote: »

Sorry, I still don't understand how the charge of speeding could have been overturned. OP, what exactly did you appeal - the increased sanction or the original offence?

Not sure why i got off totally,would have been happy to accept orignal fine and points.after all i wasnt complaining about being caught speeding. just that i didnt get a chance to pay the fixed penalty;)

Blitzkrieger

JHMEG wrote: »

That's the theory anyway.

I'm sure it is, but it discourages innocent people from appealing their cases in fear of losing and getting a bigger punishment. It's very much a 'guilty until proven innocent' stance.

MagicSean

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

I'm sure it is, but it discourages innocent people from appealing their cases in fear of losing and getting a bigger punishment. It's very much a 'guilty until proven innocent' stance.

They've already been proven guilty though.

JHMEG

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

I'm sure it is, but it discourages innocent people from appealing their cases in fear of losing and getting a bigger punishment. It's very much a 'guilty until proven innocent' stance.

They've already been found guilty tho.

thebullkf

fortuneteller wrote: »

Not sure why i got off totally,would have been happy to accept orignal fine and points.after all i wasnt complaining about being caught speeding. just that i didnt get a chance to pay the fixed penalty

so you were guilty..




and you're a taxi-driver....{didn't have time???}

is it any wo.....dya' what....fook it...not gonna bother

Our man in Havana

The Circuit Court Judge says he wasn't.

thebullkf

Haddockman wrote: »

The Circuit Court Judge says he wasn't.

sure thats all that matters:rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Indeed it does.

MagicSean

Haddockman wrote: »

The Circuit Court Judge says he wasn't.

He was still proven guilty by the district court. That conviction is binding until it is overturned.

Our man in Havana

It has been overturned by the circuit.

MagicSean

I'll be honest. I don't know why we are arguing this point.

Our man in Havana

The OP appealed his conviction to the circuit court. He gets a de novo appeal, the circuit judge accepted he did not receive the notice, appeal is allowed, conviction is overturned.

If the state cannot be bothered either to serve notices by either registered post or in person cases like these will continue.