Compare and contrast boxing to other sports.

joepenguin

Right, given that the Lee-Thiam thread is been taken over by golf vs boxing talk I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread to place the discussion for the following reasons:

1. The discussion is civilised so far (see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055888048&page=2) unlike many sport vs sport threads which i think is a credit to this forum.

2. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions coming from both ends. Golf not been a sport, and boxing not being a lonely one as prime examples.

3. It will also give the matematicians and statisticians among us the oppurtunity to explain why the rank of #1 is superior to that of #7 and #13 :P:P only joking

I'm particularly interested in what people outside of boxing circles have to say.


Seconds out.....

seven-iron

Good idea.

I'm a golfer and I love 'looking in' at boxing because there are a lot of things I think I can learn from the sport.

I can draw two comparisons.

The first being that both are obviously individual sports and require a huge amount of focus, discipline and resilience to stick at it, not when things are going well but when things are tough. You need a hardy soul to keep training when no one else believes you can reach the top. I'm not talking about the top guys but the guys who are trying to 'make it' and survive, i.e. 90% of the competitors.

Secondly, boxers I think have a huge amount of respect for their opposition similarly with golfers. Thats a fantastic thing for a sport to have and I don't thank any other comes close, rugby isn't bad by and large but there are a fair few incidents and soccer well I wont start on that.

As for golf not being a sport. Try tell this guy in the video...
http://www.menshealth.com/men/fitness/sports/golf-tips-from-camilo-villegas/article/454e593ddbf98110VgnVCM20000012281eac

ScumLord

I wouldn't have been a huge boxing fan, the only match I was at was Dunnes loss to the Spanish lad. I am now a fan of MMA though and see boxing as a discipline within MMA, it's the most important striking one. A slap from a boxer is still the most powerful way to use your hands.

Spazdarn

I don't know how the other thread escalated so quickly but, I think Vintagekits is totally fanboying over Boxing, we all love boxing or we wouldn't be posting in this thread... but there are a lot of elements to golf that are great too...

In my opinion golf is mentally tougher, each shot requires total concentration. Golf is obviously nowhere near as physical, but physicality isn't the be all and end all of sport.

That's my two cents...

foams

In other sports if you make make a mistake a you drop a point, in boxing you can get knocked out or badly hurt, in terms of difficulty its hard to compare most sports to boxing.

walshb

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I don't know how the other thread escalated so quickly but, I think Vintagekits is totally fanboying over Boxing, we all love boxing or we wouldn't be posting in this thread... but there are a lot of elements to golf that are great too...

In my opinion golf is mentally tougher, each shot requires total concentration. Golf is obviously nowhere near as physical, but physicality isn't the be all and end all of sport.

That's my two cents...

I disagree as regards the mental aspect. Yes, golfers do indeed need total concentration for every shot; but the penalty should they not be completely focused is not near as dangerous as what a boxer faces should he lapse. A boxer lapses and it could mean serious punishment. It is the most mental and nerved sport on earth. Gymnastics is very very close too.

Sid_Justice

I'd not totally agree with the two previous sentiments. You lapse in concentration, make a mistake in boxing yes, you might get a good dig but not every punch knocks you out. Watch Floyd versus Mosley the other week, Mosley yapping away about something and Floyd stuffs one down the middle, Mosley didn't get KTFO.

I think in Judo, you make a mistake, you get thrown, you lose the match. It's not a serious injury (very rarely you see a throw lead to concussion or broken limb) but it does mean you're out of the tournament. You can train you heart out for the Judo Olympics and only get 15 seconds competition.

I think there is a different style and tempo to Thai boxing fights (Muay Thai) but certainly they'd share a lot of similarities. MMA would be another order of magnitude in difference in terms of style and rhythm. But a lot of similar aspects in terms of it being a combat sport with a lot on the line physically and mentally, it's an individual sport for the 15 or 36 mins etc of actual competition but requires huge team aspect for sparring, coaching, cornering etc.

I think boxing is, with the exception of Muay Thai, the most brutal sport out there. I think you could argue horse racing and motorsports are perhaps 'more dangerous' but no sport offers the same barbarism that professional boxing does - repetive punching to the head and body of your opponent until he is incapable of continuing.

What I think is fantastic about boxing (and similar combat sports) that there is very little opportunity to cheat or deceive. Ignoring the shenanigans you might see outside the ring, or what goes on in the clinch, it's very rare for elbows,slaps and low blows to be seen.

One of my gripes about soccer and rugby is that there is a huge amount of cheating going on. Players intentionally fouling, cynically and maliciously. Stamping, eye gouging, simulated dives.

Golf and snooker have a very good honour system too, players are fairly self officiating and it's rare for a person to deliberately try to con other players.

walshb

But Sid, a fighter MUST expect that the lapse could result in a KO. Yes, it might not always happen, but does he know this?

As brutal as Muay Thai is, I think boxing can be even more so. It seems to be on average a more sustained and prolonged attack of the body.

magma69

With regards to golf, a problem I have with is is that you cannot affect your competitors with your own play. You do to a very minor extent by playing matchplay but it's not like other sports where you can directly affect the way your opponent plays.

Spazdarn

I suppose you could see the other side of that too, that victory lies only with you... outside influences can't/shouldn't be blamed for winning or losing a tournament.

magma69

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I suppose you could see the other side of that too, that victory lies only with you... outside influences can't/shouldn't be blamed for winning or losing a tournament.

Your opponent isn't an outside influence, it is just that, your opponent. If Barcelona beat Real Madrid 7-0 and give them no possession of the ball, can Real Madrid say "Barca didn't make mistakes and never gave us the ball, that's why we lost". That's crazy, that can't and shouldn't be an excuse for losing either. Barca outwitted and outmanoeuvred their opponent.

mrgardener

Boxing and golf are worlds apart.
It doesn't matter whether you're playing Tiger Woods or your best buddy - how they play is completely irrelevant to how you play. The whole point is to hit the ball into the hole and hope that you do it in less shots than everyone else.
At least in snooker you play AGAINST your opponent and you can affect the outcome of your opponents play - just like boxing. The classic example was Barrera changing his "normal" tactics to frustrate and beat Prince Naseem.

megadodge

Firstly let me say that I think golf is one of the most skilful games in the world and requires countless hours of discipline and preparation.

Now that that's out of the way I am flabergasted that anyone would believe you have to be "mentally tougher" for golf than boxing. Only someone who has never experienced the feeling of actually being in the ring ALONE with someone who's sole purpose is to beat the living sh!t out of you could say such a thing.

Without being overly macho about it, there's very little in life that scares me, but when you're in the ring waiting for the bout to start... well, only a person who has experienced it can understand - and that's not a dig at people who haven't experienced it, I just couldn't describe it in writing.

In order to overcome that fear, along with being on the receiving end of full-blooded punches to the face and body from a highly trained opponent and not panic/give up/admit defeat to yourself takes the sort of mental toughness a golfer NEVER has to apply.

One split second lapse in concentration in any given 3 minutes and you could be brain damaged / knocked out / badly hurt / beaten. Once a golfer concentrates for a minute or so, then takes his shot he has a possible 5-10 minute break before his next shot and no mistake he makes will potentially disfigure him.

Try looking at some of Arturo Gatti's fights where he comes back from the brink and tell me he wasn't as tough mentally as Tiger et al.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

One split second lapse in concentration in any given 3 minutes and you could be brain damaged / knocked out / badly hurt / beaten. Once a golfer concentrates for a minute or so, then takes his shot he has a possible 5-10 minute break before his next shot and no mistake he makes will potentially disfigure him.
.

This is a key point here and well made. A golfer needs to apply serious concentration for each shot, which lasts all of 3-4-5 seconds from
position to strike. A boxer needs 3 solid minutes of INTENSE concentration per round. I really cannot see a comparison.

A boxer does not get the luxury after 3-4-5 seconds to regain his composure for the next few minutes to plan his next attack, defense or move.

A golf round takes 3-4 hrs, and of that there is 70 or so shots taking 3-4-5 seconds each. That is about 3 or 4 minutes of concentration. A boxer needs 3 solid minutes of concentration a rd over 12 full rds.

wireless101

walshb wrote: »

This is a key point here and well made. A golfer needs to apply serious concentration for each shot, which lasts all of 3-4-5 seconds from
position to strike. A boxer needs 3 solid minutes of INTENSE concentration per round. I really cannot see a comparison.

A boxer does not get the luxury after 3-4-5 seconds to regain his composure for the next few minutes to plan his next attack, defense or move.

A golf round takes 3-4 hrs, and of that there is 70 or so shots taking 3-4-5 seconds each. That is about 3 or 4 minutes of concentartion. A boxer needs 3 solid minutes of concentartion a rd over 12 full rds.

I take it you've never watched golf then.

--amadeus--

I haven't boxed since I was at school but I'm currently working my way through the grades in a traditional martial art and I run marathons. Marathon training is fairly intense - 5 - 7 days per week with long runs of up to 3 hours. My last race was 3:00 dead; an average of sub 7 min miles for 26 miles.

But even at peak fitness I am nowhere near as fit and strong (from a full body conditioning perspective) as I was when I was boxing. Tough as the last 3 or 4 miles of a marathon are (mentally and physically) climbing into a ring is way tougher. Trying to remember your game plan while physically tired is something that all sport people do but only full contact martial arts (like boxing) include the element of having someone trying to knock your head off at the same time!

IMO there is very little that can touch boxing in terms of it's mental and physical demands.

As for golf? A technical game that (at elite levels) has a physical element but I would classify it as slightly above the likes of snooker and darts but a long way away from a sport as I would consider it. I respect teh achievements of teh likes of Harrington and McIlroy but in the same way that I respect the likes of Bono (respect, not like ) - reached the top of a competitive field and achieved world wide recognition so well done.

Big Ears

wireless101 wrote: »

I take it you've never watched golf then.

It takes quite a bit more than that but his point is still valid, in that short periods of intense concentration are broken by long periods where concentration is only required to a minimal extent(between shots).
I mean players will start thinking about their next shot from the moment their last has finished but this is not intense concentration.

Boxing on the otherhand requires 3 minutes of intense concentration followed by a minute of moderate concentration(to take in instructions as you try to physically recover) and then repeat. Now of course an amateur bout only lasts 11 minutes from first bell to last and a pro bout lasts 47 mins from first bell to last maximum where as golf requires a few days where they play for long hours each day. That is very mentally fatiguing for golfers, but they don't have to try and think about their shots while they're gasping for air and less oxygen is being delivered to the brain(affecting concentration) while the main muscles used are taking as much of it as they can to continue exercise.

I've a great respect for the skill of golfers, it's a very tough sport which requires the same sort of dedication as boxing and more physical fitness than most would believe at the top level. But I don't believe it's as tough mentally as boxing and I don't believe it requires as intense concentration.
But that's just personal opinion I suppose.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

It takes quite a bit more than that but his point is still valid, in that short periods of intense concentration are broken by long periods where concentration is only required to a minimal extent(between shots).
I mean players will start thinking about their next shot from the moment their last has finished but this is not intense concentration.

Boxing on the otherhand requires 3 minutes of intense concentration followed by a minute of moderate concentration(to take in instructions as you try to physically recover) and then repeat. Now of course an amateur bout only lasts 11 minutes from first bell to last and a pro bout lasts 47 mins from first bell to last maximum where as golf requires a few days where they play for long hours each day. That is very mentally fatiguing for golfers, but they don't have to try and think about their shots while they're gasping for air and less oxygen is being delivered to the brain(affecting concentration) while the main muscles used are taking as much of it as they can to continue exercise.

I've a great respect for the skill of golfers, it's a very tough sport which requires the same sort of dedication as boxing and more physical fitness than most would believe at the top level. But I don't believe it's as tough mentally as boxing and I don't believe it requires as intense concentration.
But that's just personal opinion I suppose.

Big, also, certain box tournaments go on for many days and consist
of thre to four to five fight.

As for the physical fitness required for golf, I would equate it to no different than being able to walk for a fair distance. Nobody is gonna' tell me that
guys like Monty, Cabrerra, Jiminez, Daly, Mickleson, Westwood and some others really posess obvious and discernible physical fitness.

Hey, Tiger and some others could be fit as fiddles, but the sport of golf does
NOT require physical fitness on any distinct level.

Holy ****, Tom grandaddy Watson came ever so close to winning a major last year

Mentally they need to be tuned in, but between shots which is almost the complete round doesn't require all that much concentration.

walshb

wireless101 wrote: »

I take it you've never watched golf then.

I have watched golf.

But here is a question for you? How exactly can you tell if a golfer is
mentally peaked between shots? What are the signs? When you see
a golfer smiling and chatting as he walks between shots, is this
really him mentally peaked and in the zone, or is it what it is, a man
smiling, walking and chatting?

With boxers during the three minutes the signs are ever so obvious.

wireless101

Big Ears wrote: »

It takes quite a bit more than that but his point is still valid, in that short periods of intense concentration are broken by long periods where concentration is only required to a minimal extent(between shots).
I mean players will start thinking about their next shot from the moment their last has finished but this is not intense concentration.

Boxing on the otherhand requires 3 minutes of intense concentration followed by a minute of moderate concentration(to take in instructions as you try to physically recover) and then repeat. Now of course an amateur bout only lasts 11 minutes from first bell to last and a pro bout lasts 47 mins from first bell to last maximum where as golf requires a few days where they play for long hours each day. That is very mentally fatiguing for golfers, but they don't have to try and think about their shots while they're gasping for air and less oxygen is being delivered to the brain(affecting concentration) while the main muscles used are taking as much of it as they can to continue exercise.

I've a great respect for the skill of golfers, it's a very tough sport which requires the same sort of dedication as boxing and more physical fitness than most would believe at the top level. But I don't believe it's as tough mentally as boxing and I don't believe it requires as intense concentration.
But that's just personal opinion I suppose.

I like to see a balanced opinion

Don't get me wrong guys, boxing is my favourite sport and golf isn;t even in my top 5, but i don't like to see it when people are just so biased they can't give a proper analysis!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Big, also, certain box tournaments go on for many days and consist
of thre to four to five fight.

As for the physical fitness required for golf, I would equate it to no different than being able to walk for a fair distance. Nobody is gonna' tell me that
guys like Monty, Cabrerra, Jiminez, Daly, Mickleson, Westwood and some others really posess obvious and discernible physical fitness.

Hey, Tiger and some others could be fit as fiddles, but the sport of golf does
NOT require physical fitness on any distinct level.

Holy ****, Tom grandaddy Watson came ever so close to winning a major last year

Mentally they need to be tuned in, but between shots which is almost the complete round doesn't require all that much concentration.

I'm well aware of that, but that is usually restricted to International Class amateur fighters(so doesn't apply to most amateurs and professionals), which is why I didn't mention it.

Golfers don't really need any aerobic fitness but they do need large amounts of strength(in order to have a long drive) and be able to use this strength again and again throughout the day. That's why guys like Tiger and Padraig look as fit as they do. There are others that look unfit but they generally still have quite powerful arms to fulfil the necessities of their sport. It's of course not even comparable to boxing in a physical sense, but I was just pointing out that golfers need to have more physical fitness(in the form of anaerobic power) than most realise.

BrianD3

Big Ears wrote: »

Golfers don't really need any aerobic fitness but they do need large amounts of strength(in order to have a long drive) and be able to use this strength again and again throughout the day. That's why guys like Tiger and Padraig look as fit as they do. There are others that look unfit but they generally still have quite powerful arms to fulfil the necessities of their sport. It's of course not even comparable to boxing in a physical sense, but I was just pointing out that golfers need to have more physical fitness(in the form of anaerobic power) than most realise.

eagle eye

I have to admit that I never thought I'd see the day that Big Ears was so clueless about something in the boxing forum.
Of course its not boxing he is wrong about.

Having boxed as a kid and followed amateur boxing from when I was knee high and professional boxing from my early teens and also played golf to a pretty decent level in amateur golf I have a good idea about both sports.

Big Ears wrote: »

I've a great respect for the skill of golfers, it's a very tough sport which requires the same sort of dedication as boxing and more physical fitness than most would believe at the top level. But I don't believe it's as tough mentally as boxing and I don't believe it requires as intense concentration.
But that's just personal opinion I suppose.

Concentration is a key ingredient in both golf and boxing. You have to be able to shut out any noise around you when playing a shot in golf. If you hear something going on that disturbs you it can lead to a horrendous shot because it will affect it. If you have something wrong in your swing on any given day, you don't try and fix it on the golf course during a round, you just have to play along with it and do the best you can. Just like in boxing, if you are having trouble with defending against a certain punch, you can't just change your defense in the middle of a fight, you just have to do the best you can to stay away from that shot.

Big Ears wrote: »

Golfers don't really need any aerobic fitness but they do need large amounts of strength(in order to have a long drive) and be able to use this strength again and again throughout the day. That's why guys like Tiger and Padraig look as fit as they do. There are others that look unfit but they generally still have quite powerful arms to fulfil the necessities of their sport. It's of course not even comparable to boxing in a physical sense, but I was just pointing out that golfers need to have more physical fitness(in the form of anaerobic power) than most realise.

Aerobic fitness is a huge part of golf. Remember the British Open last year when Tom Watson fell apart in the playoff, he just got tired. The man looks after himself I'm sure but at his age he just didn't have the fitness for extra holes. The amount of golfers who fall apart in the late part of a game is amazing and its down to fitness in a lot of cases.

As for strength, its not really a hugely important factor, just like boxing technique is far more important. Golf is a game of accuracy and the key to the game is how good your bad shots are, not how long you hit the ball or how good your good shots are. Everybody can put the ball in the hole in one shot but consistency is what makes the difference. If you have ever watched Tiger Woods playing, you will notice him complaining about a shot he hits that lands 30' from the pin. That is because that is Tiger's bad shot and his bad shots are better than anybody elses. I'm 6'1" tall and pretty strong but there are many guys who are 5'8" and scrawny who can outhit me off the tee and use a 9 iron where I would use an 8 Iron. Some of these guys are better golfers than me and some are worse.

ROCKMAN

Yes I accept Golf is a skillful game and needs a very high level of mental fitness at the top level , However this weekend there will be countless Grandfathers and Grandmothers enjoy a round of golf ,I cannot say the same about Boxing.

eagle eye

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Yes I accept Golf is a skillful game and needs a very high level of mental fitness at the top level , However this weekend there will be countless Grandfathers and Grandmothers enjoy a round of golf ,I cannot say the same about Boxing.

I think its blindingly obvious that there is a huge difference between the two sports in that sense. I didn't think there was any need to point that out.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Aerobic fitness is a huge part of golf. Remember the British Open last year when Tom Watson fell apart in the playoff, he just got tired. The man looks after himself I'm sure but at his age he just didn't have the fitness for extra holes. The amount of golfers who fall apart in the late part of a game is amazing and its down to fitness in a lot of cases.

As for strength, its not really a hugely important factor, just like boxing technique is far more important. Golf is a game of accuracy and the key to the game is how good your bad shots are, not how long you hit the ball or how good your good shots are. Everybody can put the ball in the hole in one shot but consistency is what makes the difference. If you have ever watched Tiger Woods playing, you will notice him complaining about a shot he hits that lands 30' from the pin. That is because that is Tiger's bad shot and his bad shots are better than anybody elses. I'm 6'1" tall and pretty strong but there are many guys who are 5'8" and scrawny who can outhit me off the tee and use a 9 iron where I would use an 8 Iron. Some of these guys are better golfers than me and some are worse.

So, explain how grandaddy Tom made it that far at the Open then? Ahead of all the other younger and "fitter" men?

As for fitness and aerobic this and that; explain the likes of Daly, Jiminez, Cabrerra and some others who compete/competd at the very top? Are you telling me that it was down to aerobic fitness, or that aerobic fitness was a big factor? C'mon. Nobody is denying that the game requires skill
and concentration, but claiming that you need to be quite fit to be a top golfer is a damn stretch.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

So, explain how grandaddy Tom made it that far at the Open then? Ahead of all the other younger and "fitter" men?

As for fitness and aerobic this and that; explain the likes of Daly, Jiminez, Cabrerra and some others who compete/competd at the very top? Are you telling me that it was down to aerobic fitness, or that aerobic fitness was a big factor? C'mon. Nobody is denying that the game requires skill
and concentration, but claiming that you need to be quite fit to be a top golfer is a damn stretch.

There are exceptions to every rule and Jimenez is the big exception here, the man has been ultra consistent for many years.

Daly has been very inconsistent his whole career, the man has more talent that possibly everybody but he just never looked after himself.

As for Cabrera, the man isn't an overweight out of condition guy. He might look like that on the TV but I can assure you if you followed him live you would see that he is not a heavy guy. In fact neither is Jiminez, he looks far bigger on tv than he does in real life. Monty is another who I was shocked how lean he actually was when I watched him live.

Tom Watson is one of my all time favourite sportsmen, not just in golf but in any sport. He was tired at the end of his last round though, he made an error on the 18th where he didn't think things through before he hit his second on the last, he was completely shot when he played extra holes. The man clearly looks after himself but his condition would be more one of old age catching up on him imo.

I didn't say you had to be super fit to play golf either but a certain level of aerobic fitness is required. Breathing is important too when taking shots.

Lets go boxing for a minute, do you remember the joke that was Butterbean. Tell me how he ended up with a world title? Are you saying he was aerobically fit?

I think you have to accept that there are exceptions to every rule.

This is a list of the current top ten golfers in the World rankings. These are the most consistent golfers over the last two years. Everybody on that list is in good shape.

Tiger Woods
Phil Mickelson
Steve Stricker
Lee Westwood
Jim Furyk
Ian Poulter
Ernie Els
Paul Casey
Rory McIlroy
Paul Casey

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

Aerobic fitness is a huge part of golf. Remember the British Open last year when Tom Watson fell apart in the playoff, he just got tired. The man looks after himself I'm sure but at his age he just didn't have the fitness for extra holes. The amount of golfers who fall apart in the late part of a game is amazing and its down to fitness in a lot of cases.

As for strength, its not really a hugely important factor, just like boxing technique is far more important. Golf is a game of accuracy and the key to the game is how good your bad shots are, not how long you hit the ball or how good your good shots are. Everybody can put the ball in the hole in one shot but consistency is what makes the difference. If you have ever watched Tiger Woods playing, you will notice him complaining about a shot he hits that lands 30' from the pin. That is because that is Tiger's bad shot and his bad shots are better than anybody elses. I'm 6'1" tall and pretty strong but there are many guys who are 5'8" and scrawny who can outhit me off the tee and use a 9 iron where I would use an 8 Iron. Some of these guys are better golfers than me and some are worse.

While you obviously have more knowledge(a lot more) about golf than me, I'd still argue it's repeated Anaerobic fitness rather than Aerobic fitness that is required. If it was aerobic fitness then you'd be implying it's the walking between shots that was tiring them out, because the process of actually playing a shot in golf is mainly anaerobic.

eagle eye

Big Ears wrote: »

While you obviously have more knowledge(a lot more) about golf than me, I'd still argue it's repeated Anaerobic fitness rather than Aerobic fitness that is required. If it was aerobic fitness then you'd be implying it's the walking between shots that was tiring them out, because the process of actually playing a shot in golf is mainly anaerobic.

Yes the walking does take a lot out of you, you walk a lot further than the actual distance of the course. Most professional tournament golf is played on courses that are very hilly and you are more often walking up or down a sharp hill than in a flat area.

Pisco Sour

In most professional sports becoming World Champion means you are actually the World Champion.

In boxing it means you share that honour with about 4-5 other guys!

walshb

04072511 wrote: »

In most professional sports becoming World Champion means you are actually the World Champion.

In boxing it means you share that honour with about 4-5 other guys!

I hear ya, and it irks me.

Slightly separate discussion. When strictly talking about the mental and physical aspects of sport, there is nothing quite as tough and demanding as
pro boxing