Are these any good?

Tackleberrywho

Are these any good?:D
I'm not a target shooter but this looks interesting!

It wasn't me!

It's an RPA action in a Keppeler stock. That'll be someone's prone TR setup. I expect it will be very accurate, yeah, fairly typical sort of rig.

Actually, only noticed the fore-end plate. That's going to be an F-Class gun. also, the stock may not be a Keppeler, but it's got the same pistol grip.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's an RPA action in a Keppeler stock. That'll be someone's prone TR setup. I expect it will be very accurate, yeah, fairly typical sort of rig.

Actually, only noticed the fore-end plate. That's going to be an F-Class gun. also, the stock may not be a Keppeler, but it's got the same pistol grip.

As of today it is making 1 hole groups @200

.270 WSM F-Class with class;)
Fergal White signature piece

dCorbus

It's a BDG Stock from Australia:

http://www.bdg.com.au/shooting/StockV1.html

It wasn't me!

.270 WSM is an unusual choice for F-Class. Surely would have gone 7mm WSM or 7mm/300 WSM?

dCorbus

I agree, unusual calibre choice, but hey, if it gets the results.....:D

It wasn't me!

Problem is bullet choice and ballistics. It's never been a target shooting round, so selection of bullets is going to be small. Just for an example, Sierra make a 135gr Matchking for it, with a BC of .488, which is way ahead of comparable weights in 7mm and .30 cal, but only a bit ahead of a .224 80gr SMK, and significantly behind the 175-180gr 7mms and the heavier .30s. It's also very significantly behind the heavy 6mms. So from that point of view, sure, you don't have the recoil of a big 7mm or a big .30, but it's still no joke, and you don't have the efficiency, ease of shooting or actual ballistics you'd get running 105-115gr pills out of a 6XC or a .243 Ackley, which will be kittens in comparison.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Problem is bullet choice and ballistics. It's never been a target shooting round, so selection of bullets is going to be small. Just for an example, Sierra make a 135gr Matchking for it, with a BC of .488, which is way ahead of comparable weights in 7mm and .30 cal, but only a bit ahead of a .224 80gr SMK, and significantly behind the 175-180gr 7mms and the heavier .30s. It's also very significantly behind the heavy 6mms. So from that point of view, sure, you don't have the recoil of a big 7mm or a big .30, but it's still no joke, and you don't have the efficiency, ease of shooting or actual ballistics you'd get running 105-115gr pills out of a 6XC or a .243 Ackley, which will be kittens in comparison.

Thats the difference, ya can't bate experience and this user has been a fan of 270 as long as I know him and longer
He is a tad older than me!

Figgy does not build Rifles that won't shoot. he already has had one irish Record this year

It wasn't me!

Fair enough, as a hunting cartridge, but the maths don't lie, and as an engineer you know that as well as I do. That .277 135gr SMK with its BC of .488 is a decent bullet, but it's got nothing on the .264 142gr SMK at .595, or the .243 115gr SMK at .553, and those are only the similar weight comparisons. If you're going to shoot a magnum and put up with the recoil and want to skip right past the 6.5-284, then you're going to end up shooting a 7mm WSM more than likely, or a 7mm/300 WSM for the extra tiny bit of case capacity, shooting something like a 175-180gr bullet. The 175 SMK has a BC of .608 Even the decent .30s beat it. A .308 Win shooting the new 155gr Palma SMK with a BC of .504 is a better call even, or with a bigger .30, the 190gr SMK with a BC of .533. The maths don't lie and while the .277 is an amazing hunting bullet, with exceptional sectional density, it's not a target bullet, and there's a reason nobody else is using it.

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

.270 WSM is an unusual choice for F-Class. Surely would have gone 7mm WSM or 7mm/300 WSM?

I know of 2-3 lads using this calibre and one of them consistantly outshoots all others (7mm, etc) winning most everything around him. Could be wrong and will confirm when possible, but from memory it seems to be doing the job.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Fair enough, as a hunting cartridge, but the maths don't lie, and as an engineer you know that as well as I do. That .277 135gr SMK with its BC of .488 is a decent bullet, but it's got nothing on the .264 142gr SMK at .595, or the .243 115gr SMK at .553, and those are only the similar weight comparisons. If you're going to shoot a magnum and put up with the recoil and want to skip right past the 6.5-284, then you're going to end up shooting a 7mm WSM more than likely, or a 7mm/300 WSM for the extra tiny bit of case capacity, shooting something like a 175-180gr bullet. The 175 SMK has a BC of .608 Even the decent .30s beat it. A .308 Win shooting the new 155gr Palma SMK with a BC of .504 is a better call even, or with a bigger .30, the 190gr SMK with a BC of .533. The maths don't lie and while the .277 is an amazing hunting bullet, with exceptional sectional density, it's not a target bullet, and there's a reason nobody else is using it.

well I saw .38 wad cutters go against any thing I would have previously thought.

This is where sometimes things just work.
The rounds he shoots look weird but they work really long heads.

Sometimes you just got to believe.
i know computers have transistors up to 32 nano meters small, Thats a molecular level!

Sometimes you just got to believe!:D:D

It wasn't me!

ezridax wrote: »

I know of 2-3 lads using this calibre and one of them consistantly outshoots all others (7mm, etc) winning most everything around him. Could be wrong and will confirm when possible, but from memory it seems to be doing the job.

That's bizarre. If you're talking to any of them, ask what bullet they're running, because the maths don't stack up from anything I've seen. The 7mms are a better bet in wind if you're prepared to put up with magnum recoil, and the 6mms are a good call for a light round.

It wasn't me!

Just saw Berger are claiming a .531 BC for their 150gr .277 VLD hunting bullet. They don't make a .270 cal target bullet, but that would be a decent mid-range candidate too.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

That's bizarre. If you're talking to any of them, ask what bullet they're running, because the maths don't stack up from anything I've seen. The 7mms are a better bet in wind if you're prepared to put up with magnum recoil, and the 6mms are a good call for a light round.

Just Believe!

Sometimes a combination of many small things can make one great thing!
I put it to you sir it will be a gold medal or close

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

That's bizarre...........

I only mention it cause when last looking i happened to say "nice 7mm". I was corrected and told it was a .270 WSM. When i asked was he the only one using it i was told 2 others had gone the same route.

If you're talking to any of them, ask what bullet they're running

Might see him this weekend if not next weekend. Will ask then.

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Just Believe!

Sometimes a combination of many small things can make one great thing!
I put it to you sir it will be a gold medal or close

Maybe here, but internationally? That's what counts, and while there are plenty of people shooting 7mm/270 WSM out there, I can't find record of anyone outside of here shooting the parent case. Had never heard of anyone here shooting it until today.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Maybe here, but internationally? That's what counts, and while there are plenty of people shooting 7mm/270 WSM out there, I can't find record of anyone outside of here shooting the parent case. Had never heard of anyone here shooting it until today.

Ah, but Nobody could run faster than a 4 minute mile until Sir Roger banister, 12 ran it soon after that!

And Figgy is one of the best Tool makers in the world
And I know the owner is one of the best shots in the world

It wasn't me!

The 6mmBR has some seriously impressive 1000 yard scores to its name, but nobody's using it seriously for the 1000 yard game these days. Likewise the bigger 6mms. The rest of the world is going with heavy 7mms and to a lesser extent 6.5mms. I'd go that way myself to tell the truth. Even the 6.5-284 has been knocked off its pedestal. Maybe the .270 WSM is the next big thing to come, but it's going to take a revolution in bullet design for it to compete against the 7mm at distance and in foul weather. If nothing else, the 7mm just has more weight.

dCorbus

Ah, but it's not all about the maths though, is it?:D;)

Tackleberrywho

dCorbus wrote: »

Ah, but it's not all about the maths though, is it?:D;)

I would have to agree.
And I put €50 that that rifle gets a medal

dCorbus

And I put €50 that that rifle gets a medal

I'd bet on the man, not the rifle!:D;)

Tackleberrywho

dCorbus wrote: »

I'd bet on the man, not the rifle!:D;)

I was betting on Both

Great Rifle, Great man. And when he hears this he will have a great big laugh about it

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Ah, but it's not all about the maths though, is it?:D;)

In long range stuff? Yeah, it's really, really heavily weighted towards the maths. Stick the best shooters in the world behind a 6BR on a minging day at a thousand yards and they'll acquit themselves well, but they'll be beaten by a decent shooter shooting a 6.5-284 or a heavy 7mm. If it weren't worth the extra recoil, cost and tiny barrel life to shoot them, people wouldn't use the cartridge. Decent trigger control and shooting technique are so much a given that they're just not a factor at a higher level, so you can ignore them for the purposes of this. There are mitigating factors - German Salazar sold all his 6.5-284 reloading gear when he discovered the 6XC, but he's a prone shooter, so the extra recoil made a big difference to him, and he didn't need the same tiny groups as are required in F-Class, so on balance, the tiny bit of extra wind reading skill required was more than compensated for by the reduced recoil and cost to shoot - but by and large, the top end of the F-Class spectrum is dominated by a very few cartridges, for a good reason; they work better than the rest, because of very high quality, high BC bullets into which an awful lot of R&D has been invested. Cartridges get put on a pedestal for a reason. Look how hard people have been trying to beat the 6BR for ISSF 300m competition, with no conclusive success to date, and that arms race has spawned some amazing cartridges all on its own, including the 6x47 Swiss Match and the 6.5x47. Everyone's looking for a competitive advantage, and the round used really does matter. I'm curious to find out the .277 bullet these guys are using though, and velocities involved (I've a suspicion this may be the decisive factor since even the .270 Win puts out a 130gr bullet about 3060 fps with factory loads) because maybe it is the next big advance, but I dunno whether it's going to knock the big 7s out of the top spots yet. Sure, Tack, I'm sure it'll win medals with a decent driver behind it, but what medals? I've won a few medals. Will these be individual world championship level medals? And anyway, it's world records we need to be thinking about, not medals!

dCorbus

hey iwm, you missed one very important word in my previous post:

"it's not all about the maths though"

AFAIK that's going to be an F-Open Rifle, as (if my understanding of the rules is correct), an F/TR rifle may only be an unmodified .308 or .223 (i.e. no magnums etc.)

It's the F-Open that will allow any calibre up to 8mm (or .35in in the US, I believe)

Now, if the maths was so ultimately important, as you state, why is it that F/TR shooters with far less equipment and usually only a .308 are on occassion bettering the scores of the F-Open shooters in a number of competitions? If it was the Holy Mathematics which was the decider (as you are proposing), this would be mathematically and ballistically impossible - And yet it happens. Why?

IMHO Because the skill of the shooter is the deciding factor, not the amount of custom and specialist equipment used. That's just my limited opinion.

A .308 in the right hands is perfectly capable (again IMveryHO) at scoring as many 5's and V's as a 6.5x55, AckleyI, 6.5-284, etc. etc.

It may take more work, require more shooting skill, a better understanding of the wind, but it can, and is, more often than should be expected, done.

But then again, I'm not a massive fan of the "arms-race" that BR and F-Open appear to be morphing into. If it's long-range accuracy and records we're looking for, ah, f**k it, just give me a Rail-gun in .50cal - That will be more accurate over a longer range than anything else and will get the World Records you're looking for.:D;)

Or else, just a plain-old .338 Lap Mag....but you can't use that here in F-Open or F/TR, worst luck!:(:rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

In calm conditions, those things can happen, and yeah, once in a while, the Russell Simmonds types of this world come out and do crazy things with their TR guns, but then those garner attention, because they're notably exceptional. The arms race aspect of it doesn't really bother me. I find the innovative competition fascinating actually. However, the .308s are by and large are scoring lower because the round isn't as good. Take the same shooter and they'll get the higher score with the Open gun, all things being equal in terms of quality. You have it nailed. Yeah, a 1/4 MOA rifle is capable of doing it all, but those calibres I've mentioned are chosen because your one mile an hour wind error might not cost you a point it would have with the .308. That's what it's all about, stacking the odds in your favour, and who makes the job harder at a high level? If I were going to a world cup, I'd be selecting ammo like a bastard. Sure, I could trust the batch of Centre-X I bought in Tallaght Rod and Gun which shot fine, but you can be sure I'll be looking for every competitive advantage I can get, and that's in the ISSF game, which doesn't get nearly the accusations of being an arms race which F-Class attracts.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

In calm conditions, those things can happen, and yeah, once in a while, the Russell Simmonds types of this world come out and do crazy things with their TR guns, but then those garner attention, because they're notably exceptional. The arms race aspect of it doesn't really bother me. I find the innovative competition fascinating actually. However, the .308s are by and large are scoring lower because the round isn't as good. Take the same shooter and they'll get the higher score with the Open gun, all things being equal in terms of quality. You have it nailed. Yeah, a 1/4 MOA rifle is capable of doing it all, but those calibres I've mentioned are chosen because your one mile an hour wind error might not cost you a point it would have with the .308. That's what it's all about, stacking the odds in your favour, and who makes the job harder at a high level? If I were going to a world cup, I'd be selecting ammo like a bastard. Sure, I could trust the batch of Centre-X I bought in Tallaght Rod and Gun which shot fine, but you can be sure I'll be looking for every competitive advantage I can get, and that's in the ISSF game, which doesn't get nearly the accusations of being an arms race which F-Class attracts.

The person who owns that rifle, I believe is one of the best advertisements for the sport in the Island of Ireland.
He is as good with a .270 Baikal as many are with Benchrest or F class! He has proved it more times

IRLConor

FYI, I split this out from the pictures thread.

dCorbus

In calm conditions, those things can happen, and yeah, once in a while, the Russell Simmonds types of this world come out and do crazy things

They do indeed, and not always in calm conditions.
And they're not all Russell Simmonds types - some of them are Tommy & Adrian types too!;):D

And AFAIK:

It's an RPA action in a Keppeler stock

It's a CG Inch Action in a BDG Stock!:D:p

And if it's being made for who I think it is, I, for one, wouldn't argue his choice of calibre!;):p

Will these be individual world championship level medals?

No doubt!

And anyway, it's world records we need to be thinking abou

And that shouldn't too hard either!;):D

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

I only mention it cause when last looking i happened to say "nice 7mm". I was corrected and told it was a .270 WSM. When i asked was he the only one using it i was told 2 others had gone the same route.



Might see him this weekend if not next weekend. Will ask then.

I could tell ya, but that would take the fun out of it IWM lol

Then again would that not be giving away a competitive edge??