Bad Refs

Tim Robbins

Interesting article about the lack of good refs in the Magner's League.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0511/1224270129323.html

ON RUGBY: Brian O’Driscoll was right to highlight the gross inconsistencies and poor standards, writes GERRY THORNLEY

SO THEY meet again, and we do know where and we do know when. What had seemed like a potentially anti-climactic end-of-season run-in has been given an injection of interest, not only in ensuring the most meaningful meeting of the two Irish superpowers this season, but also ensuring one of them will be in the final in three weeks.

The Irish squad meet up after that league final for the Barbarians match and summer tour, and one wonders what the Irish management will make of it. Privately, they probably have mixed feelings. This clash will sharpen the waning competitive juices of the leading players amid their post-Heineken Cup semi-final hangover.

Against that, many of them have looked weary and are carrying injuries – even more so than normal come May at the end of a post-Lions season.

But the sight of their most familiar friends and foes, and a capacity 18,500 crowd, should reactivate the old juices.

The two games were sharply contrasting affairs: Munster did enough in a grim arm-wrestle with Cardiff, whereas Leinster won a typically madcap game of basketball against Edinburgh to ensure home advantage next weekend.

Brian O’Driscoll appeared to become noticeably more animated as the match progressed, and this continued afterwards. Not normally one to gift the media with his presence while on Leinster duty and on a break from his responsibilities as Irish captain, O’Driscoll gave vent to his view that Leinster should not countenance moving the semi-final to Croke Park and sacrifice the RDS as their home venue next week.

But clearly he was even more moved to vent his frustration over the performance of Peter Fitzgibbon, or, more pertinently, refereeing standards in general in the Magners League. O’Driscoll even went so far as to request that an elite referee such as Nigel Owens or Wayne Barnes be in charge of the semi-final. Presumably he was airing his view on the assumption that it is to be a non-Irish referee, for any one of Alain Rolland, Alan Lewis or George Clancy would be superior to any Scottish referee or one from Wales, apart from Owens.

The good news is that Owens will officiate the RDS semi-final, while Clancy will be in charge of the Friday semi-final in Wales between the Ospreys and Glasgow.

However, while O’Driscoll and many others will rest a little easier on that score, the greater issue of the standard of refereeing remains the league’s biggest problem.

In asking for someone of the ilk of Owens or Barnes, O’Driscoll explained: “They have international pedigree and their level of consistency is clear. Their explanations are there for you in the dressingroom beforehand, and they stick by them, whereas on occasion referees say one thing in a dressingroom and referee completely differently out on the pitch. That’s when you see guys losing the head and making throwaway remarks because of the level of frustration, and I’d be as guilty as anyone.”

O’Driscoll is not one to abuse his status as an eminence grise among modern-day players, which means we should all sit up and take notice when he is moved to speak.

Matt Williams, whose presence in the Setanta Sports studios has enlightened viewers and added to the channel’s coverage no end, has been carping on about this for years. It is, he says, the league’s elephant in the room.

Williams estimated that in seven of Ulster’s first 10 matches last season, the actual result was determined one way or the other by incorrect refereeing decisions. Williams was moved to write to the IRFU and the three refereeing co-ordinators from Ireland, Wales and Scotland. He implored them to introduce a merit-based system with referees ranked accordingly, rather than one based on nationality, which has largely been the case in the league’s history.

The ERC have done this in appointing Donal Courtney as their referees’ performance manager, and perhaps in time this will filter down to the league, although they could do worse than either appoint him as well or someone else with a similar remit.

Of course, there is a mini crisis in refereeing throughout the game internationally, even though it appears the Magners League is the worst example, with professional livelihoods and the entertainment value of the sport – which is, after all, an industry – significantly affected.

The Scots have given the world plenty of good referees in the past – Jim Fleming, Brian Anderson, Alan Hosie and others – but simply aren’t producing them at the moment.

This is not an exclusively Scottish problem, and nor is it about where referees are born. This is about refereeing standards. If it comes to pass in a few years that 80 per dent of the best referees in the Celtic unions are Scottish, so be it; but as long as the league divvies up the refereeing appointments on a geographical basis, the problem will remain.

The way referees are appointed, assessed and employed simply hasn’t kept pace with modern professional sport, rugby included. By contrast, though, other sports have changed hugely.

For example, the Super League (rugby league) in Britain are bringing over young referees from other countries such as New Zealand and Australia on full-time contracts.

The IRB and the league need to start thinking outside the box. Peter Marshall, the former club player and Australian international referee, now runs the training courses in Australia for cricket umpires. Australian Rugby League now has an ex-player, Mick Stone, as their referees’ chief, and he has referees looking at the game through players’ eyes.

Of course, for all the money that has come into the game, there has not been compelling evidence that professional referees are better than semi-professional ones, but nor is it sufficiently financially remunerative, or long-term enough, to attract the best.

Admittedly, the league has begun employing non-neutral referees this season (ie, non-Scottish for Irish-Welsh games), and have begun exchanging referees with their English and French counterparts this season (and an English referee has been pencilled in for the final).

But the trade-off means losing the league’s best to games in the Top 14 and the Premiership, and besides which the elite European referees – who will officiate in the Southern Hemisphere this season – cannot be employed every week.

Furthermore, the advent of two Italian teams to the league – and their referees! – means the number of matches in the league will increase from 90 to 132.

Ye Gods.

castie

I didnt realise referees were ranked by country.
Seems like a rather silly way of doing things as 3rd best in a nation thats not producing good standards is going to be alot worse than the top referee for the league. Seems to encourage a wide gulf in talent between top and bottom.

Good Article.

Refereeing is 80% about consistency, that's all players want.

Does anyone know a ballpark figure for what the referees get paid?

Also, I think that it has come to a stage, where it is ridiculous to say that an Irish referee cannot referee a game with an Irish team in it. In fact, it would be a good idea to have referees tested by having them referee games from their "local" team.

A merit based system has got to come into it, I believe, and bonuses could be paid accordingly.

The system of training, choosing, and controlling refereeing standards is due a bit of a shakeup

Gracelessly Tom

The standard of reffing in the ML has been poor for a number of years and nothing has been done to address the situation. I think it's because the powers that be are using it to break in new refs who appear to be good at local level (eg:AIL or Welsh league). Gives them exposure to higher rated games without needing to be thrown into H Cup or international games.

I've also heard that some refs simply won't ref in the ML.....

PhatPiggins

Deleted User wrote: »

Good Article.

Refereeing is 80% about consistency, that's all players want.

Does anyone know a ballpark figure for what the referees get paid?

Also, I think that it has come to a stage, where it is ridiculous to say that an Irish referee cannot referee a game with an Irish team in it. In fact, it would be a good idea to have referees tested by having them referee games from their "local" team.

A merit based system has got to come into it, I believe, and bonuses could be paid accordingly.

The system of training, choosing, and controlling refereeing standards is due a bit of a shakeup

Did Fitzgibbon not ref the Leinster game on sunday? I presumed his (continually) awful performance was part reason for BOD's remarks.

Gracelessly Tom

He did and there has been a number of occasions when Irish refs have done interpro games or games involving one irish province.

PhatPiggins

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

The standard of reffing in the ML has been poor for a number of years and nothing has been done to address the situation. I think it's because the powers that be are using it to break in new refs who appear to be good at local level (eg:AIL or Welsh league). Gives them exposure to higher rated games without needing to be thrown into H Cup or international games.

I've also heard that some refs simply won't ref in the ML.....[/QUOTE]

I'd say thats a just a rumour to be honest unless you mean guys who are above ML level, like Chris White. Any new ref would jump at the chance.

Gracelessly Tom

I didn't mean new refs, as you said they'd be jumping at the chance. Mad not to take their chance.

Have heard that some established refs, won't mention names, would rather do a domestic game than travel for a ML game.

Could be rumour but I have seen refs doing AIL matches on ML weekends and not reffing a Magners game. Could be they are not needed in the Magners of course to give new guys the exposure.

Downtime

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

Could be rumour but I have seen refs doing AIL matches on ML weekends and not reffing a Magners game. Could be they are not needed in the Magners of course to give new guys the exposure.

They are also contracted to do a certain number of AIL games per regular season.

Tim Robbins

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

I didn't mean new refs, as you said they'd be jumping at the chance. Mad not to take their chance.

Have heard that some established refs, won't mention names, would rather do a domestic game than travel for a ML game.

Could be rumour but I have seen refs doing AIL matches on ML weekends and not reffing a Magners game. Could be they are not needed in the Magners of course to give new guys the exposure.

I seriously doubt it.

A lot of the way refs are assessed isn't very logical. For example, Nigel Owens is without doubt a world class ref. If you were being assessed at a J4 match in Leinster and stood in the same position he frequently does for a ruck, known as the chariot - you'd be docked marks. Similarly if you stood in the same position he frequently does for a lineout, known as the zipper you'd also be docked marks.

Therefore if Nigel Owens reffed the way he did in Leinster he'd be docked marks in two key areas and in theory would never get above J4 unless he made serious changes to way he currently refs at the highest level!

go figure.

Hippo

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, I think that it has come to a stage, where it is ridiculous to say that an Irish referee cannot referee a game with an Irish team in it. In fact, it would be a good idea to have referees tested by having them referee games from their "local" team.

We had that recently when Alan Lewis looked after a Leinster game. The problem was he bent over so far backwards to prove his 'impartiality' that he only reffed one team for most of the game. I'd be in no hurry to see a repeat of that!

Tim Robbins

Hippo wrote: »

We had that recently when Alan Lewis looked after a Leinster game. The problem was he bent over so far backwards to prove his 'impartiality' that he only reffed one team for most of the game. I'd be in no hurry to see a repeat of that!

You see this is where it gets subjective. I thought Lewis had a good game that night. I didn't think Peter F did though last weekend. Are my being reasonable or subjective? And I didn't think James Jones did the last time he did Leinster.

Unfortunately trying to establish what makes a good ref is very subjective.

anonymous_joe

To quote myself after the Embra game;

As a final note – Peter Fitzgibbon, take a bow. There's a man I dislike more intensely than James Jones in this world. Your efforts were fcuking epic. If I never ever ever see that man referee a game of rugby again I will be slightly happier in my life. He was appalling and should be ashamed of himself. Seriously, he and the other shíte refs are ruining the Magners League.

I was absolutely enraged during the game. Properly angry. Reffing is so utterly crucial, and bad refs ruin a sport as complex as rugby.

Fitzgibbon needs to be held to account, as do his colleagues.

Gracelessly Tom

Downtime wrote: »

They are also contracted to do a certain number of AIL games per regular season.

Fair point, hadn't thought of that!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Unfortunately trying to establish what makes a good ref is very subjective.

+1. If your team win you can overlook some bad calls and vice versa when your team lose, all the bad decisions get magnified. I'm personally guilty of always wearing blue tinted glasses!

irishbucsfan

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You see this is where it gets subjective. I thought Lewis had a good game that night. I didn't think Peter F did though last weekend. Are my being reasonable or subjective? And I didn't think James Jones did the last time he did Leinster.

I agree with you on all of those.

Alan Lewis had a fair game that day. He missed one or two things but from what I saw he wasn't bending over backwards. Some people sitting around me thought he was though.

Fitzgibbon on the other hand was atrocious. How could he defend some of those decisions? The guy needs to be dropped down a level after that.

I didn't actually get to watch the James Jones game, but I've heard terrible things.

Watch a game that you've already seen, but this time watch the referee.

Realistically, the only time in the game that people look to the referee is when they are expecting a whistle and don't get one.

When you watch a game and and watch the referee for the most part, its incredible to see how class shines through. Alain Rolland, for example, commands respect, is quick, always with the play, and has no problem taking cards out when they are due. He gives captains opportunities to talk to him, but not berate/badger him, and always seems in control of the game. His confidence and attitude are a huge part of his overall ability as a referee.

Now, can we train ~ 10/15 more of him please?

PhatPiggins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I agree with you on all of those.

Alan Lewis had a fair game that day. He missed one or two things but from what I saw he wasn't bending over backwards. Some people sitting around me thought he was though.

Fitzgibbon on the other hand was atrocious. How could he defend some of those decisions? The guy needs to be dropped down a level after that.

I didn't actually get to watch the James Jones game, but I've heard terrible things.

I honestly thought that after the third yellow when the Leinster player who I cant remember went up to Jones and said something like "we cant play like this" and then he turned around and gave the fourth yellow that Leinster would walk off the pitch. Personally I was discusted and I wanted Glasgow to win for playoff reasons.

JustinDee

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

I've also heard that some refs simply won't ref in the ML.....

That is definitely nothing more than rumour.

Zzippy

anonymous_joe wrote: »

To quote myself after the Embra game;

As a final note – Peter Fitzgibbon, take a bow. There's a man I dislike more intensely than James Jones in this world. Your efforts were fcuking epic. If I never ever ever see that man referee a game of rugby again I will be slightly happier in my life. He was appalling and should be ashamed of himself. Seriously, he and the other shíte refs are ruining the Magners League.

I was absolutely enraged during the game. Properly angry. Reffing is so utterly crucial, and bad refs ruin a sport as complex as rugby.

Fitzgibbon needs to be held to account, as do his colleagues.

Fitzgibbon is IMO one of the worst refs in the ML. I've lost count of the times I've lost the rag watching games he was "reffing". He's an absolute joke, and it shows what a shambles the assessment process must be that he hasn't been dropped to J4. Every time I see his name down to ref a Connacht game my heart drops, not that he's biased just that he's hopelessly bad and you just don't know what crucial decisions he's going to get wrong this time.
George Clancy makes a few howlers, but he's improving all the time, Rolland and Lewis are excellent refs.

anonymous_joe

Zzippy wrote: »

Fitzgibbon is IMO one of the worst refs in the ML. I've lost count of the times I've lost the rag watching games he was "reffing". He's an absolute joke, and it shows what a shambles the assessment process must be that he hasn't been dropped to J4. Every time I see his name down to ref a Connacht game my heart drops, not that he's biased just that he's hopelessly bad and you just don't know what crucial decisions he's going to get wrong this time.
George Clancy makes a few howlers, but he's improving all the time, Rolland and Lewis are excellent refs.

Thing is, I bet he's an amazing ref at a lower level. Refereeing is not easy by any means, as I'm sure Tim and others could confirm. It's about knowing when to say you're not coping though.

I know it's not rugby, but Graham Poll always says interesting stuff about the pressure on referees. A lot are left to referee despite clearly being out of their depth - who benefits from that?

Zuffer

Zzippy wrote: »

Fitzgibbon is IMO one of the worst refs in the ML. [...]
George Clancy makes a few howlers, but he's improving all the time, Rolland and Lewis are excellent refs.

I guess this is a typical view. Rolland, Lewis, and Owens are good. Maybe a couple of other like Barnes, White, Kaplan are also decent. (though I guarantee there are people who think those names are terrible).

The problem is, the same 3-6 guys - and we are literally talking about 3-6 guys in the world - can't referee every game. Even if they could, new referees need to be brought through at time up to the next level, just like players.

When we talk about players on this forum, we're always talking about alternatives. We could say, for example, that 'BOD played terribly, McFadden isn't up to it either, any new blood coming up through the academy?'
What about refs? Any good ones trying to break into ML level? I haven't heard a single potential 'new star' mentioned. I guess that means there aren't any, which means that the problem is only going to get worse over time, not better.

PhatPiggins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Thing is, I bet he's an amazing ref at a lower level. Refereeing is not easy by any means, as I'm sure Tim and others could confirm. It's about knowing when to say you're not coping though.

I know it's not rugby, but Graham Poll always says interesting stuff about the pressure on referees. A lot are left to referee despite clearly being out of their depth - who benefits from that?

Graham Poll that yardstick for all officials, who gave the same player 3 yellow cards in a game! He makes the odd good point but I always feel with him that its a case of getting your excuses in first.

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Graham Poll that yardstick for all officials, who gave the same player 3 yellow cards in a game! He makes the odd good point but I always feel with him that its a case of getting your excuses in first.

Sort of the point though - Poll was, realistically, one of the world's best refs of recent years. And he made a monumental and public cock up. Nobody's perfect, but certainly, some are less perfect than others.

PhatPiggins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Sort of the point though - Poll was, realistically, one of the world's best refs of recent years. And he made a monumental and public cock up. Nobody's perfect, but certainly, some are less perfect than others.

Personally I thought he was over hyped by Sky and the red tops but thats for another forum

JustinDee

Zzippy wrote: »

Rolland and Lewis are excellent refs.

They had to gain experience to become as good as they are.

toomevara

I agree that the reffing in the ML games I've seen has been pretty erratic in terms of quality, but at the same time folks we've got to be realistic and give these guys a break. Reffing rugby union is a thankless, difficult and massively complex task, especially in the professional era, with its gamesmanship and constant rule/interpretation changes.

I take my hat off to anyone who's prepared to give it a go, I wouldn't do it in a million years. Remember at the end of the day they're human beings and subject to all the frailties we all are. It's all about experience and you only get that through trial and error. We all need to be a little more understanding when it comes to the man in the middle, i know thats a little difficult to swallow when a mistake has just cost your team, but new refs have got to be given a chance to succeed and making mistakes is part and parcel of that process.

"Those who can, Ref. Those who cant, criticise...;)"

Tim Robbins

Zuffer wrote: »

What about refs? Any good ones trying to break into ML level? I haven't heard a single potential 'new star' mentioned. I guess that means there aren't any, which means that the problem is only going to get worse over time, not better.

You see there's a huge amount of politics with reffing.

The higher you go up the more you get assessed, so if you have a few bad games you should really be getting demoted. But it rarely happens.

This makes it very hard for the lads that are just below the ML level (AIL 1, 2)to get up to the next level. The same happens between all levels right down to J4 and J5 leagues.

Outside of the obvious, it's also very subjective. There are certain different styles and mannerisms which some assessors like.

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Personally I thought he was over hyped by Sky and the red tops but thats for another forum

Ah yeah, indeed.

But it does all add up to the fact that it's not exactly easy.

Anyone else think two refs would be the answer?

handsomecake

Zuffer wrote: »

Barnes

dont even fu**ing go there

thomond2006

handsomecake wrote: »

dont even fu**ing go there

Barnes is an excellent ref, very consistent in his decision making.

G'wan France.

trippyrez

The standard of Reffing in the ML has been shocking this is true, but I don't think bringing southern hemisphere refs over is the answer either. The standard of reffing in the tri-nations and more obviously the Super 14s is so bad as to be laughable.

Ranking refs by country is a poor way to handle things. If a ref is good enough then he is good enough and if he isn't then ditch him. That's the way it should be.

Zzippy

JustinDee wrote: »

They had to gain experience to become as good as they are.

No shit, really? If you bothered to quote the rest of my sentence, I said Clancy was improving all the time. In contrast to Fitzgibbon. I agree that referees need to gain experience, but how much experience do you give someone before you say they're just not good enough?? He's not improving with experience, he's still getting important decisions badly wrong. Time to give him a season or two at AIL level again and try someone else.

seanin4711

UP the sportsground in galway you will see the broadest interpretations of the rules ever!bordering on mind boggling!
Been used to it for years playing the opposition and the ref!
Rarely seen touch judges use their flags also up there(must have sore shoulders!)
slan
GWAN CONNACHT!!!